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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

    First I recall is Daphne and her Beau from "Some Like it Hot."

    May not have been the intent, but I saw a man who started dressing as a woman from necessity and found it more of a one way trip than expected. Who then found themselves falling in love with a man who loved them back unconditionally in 1920s america. And I imprinted pretty hard on that I think.

    Daphne giggling about marriage plans with Osgood to her roommate, and the long tearful confession at the end where Osgood poo-poos anything as a dealbreaker culminating in
    "Dammit, I'm a man!"
    ~blissful smile~
    "Nobody's perfect."

    Stuck in my head as really sweet, even if the 50s interpretation of gender and sexuality made some of the stuff problematic in hindsight.
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

    Brave Patroclus, perhaps. I see him as a good role model.

    "...an unusually kind man, attentive to the needs of others and sensitive to their distress, in a manner unlike anyone else in the poem. Among the constantly assertive warriors, Patroclus appears something rather special, moved more by simple human concerns for his friends than by the more egocentric demands of the heroic code. <...> Menelaus' later tribute to Patroclus' as a man who "knew how to treat every man with care," while reminding his fellow soldiers of Patroclus' "kindness" further strengthens our sense that here we have a warrior with a special interest in the welfare of others." - Ian Johnston, Essays on Homer's Iliad

    Quote Originally Posted by KarlMarx View Post
    Does anyone know if any of the Roman poets had significant discussion or focus on non-heterosexual themes?
    Oh, and there are also Nisus and Euryalus in Aeneid.

  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

    "I did not hit her it's not true it's bull**** I did not hit her, I did not."

    Oh, hi Mark.

    ::Random mumbling for real life problems::

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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

    ... uh, what?
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

    Quote Originally Posted by Comrade View Post
    ... uh, what?
    It's a movie reference that mirrors real life.
    (The Room reference from an infamous scene of bad acting).

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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

    Are you suggesting that Johnny was queer?

    That would certainly be an interesting suggestion. Johnny is portrayed as the ideal American man; wears suits, brings flowers home to his wife, plays football with kids, has sex three times a day in the (exact) same way, has a lot of money but doesn't make a big deal out of it, etc.
    Being queer in any way doesn't really seem to align with how the movie protrays "real men".

    It could of course also be that the entire movie is bogus, but who would ever think that??
    GRIM ESSENCES - a story about silly people in a gloomy setting; a world bound by Plato-esque rules of perception, where wizards roam free, Gods are servants of mankind, and being a plunderer is a valid career choice. Amidst dangers and mysteries of dubious credibility, heroes and villains alike struggle to shape the world to their liking.

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

    Quick question: how did being "camp" become associated with being gay?
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    Several actors, such as Stephen Fry, Neil Patrick Harris and George Takei are all gay. Not sure if that helps?
    Thanks I was mostly being sarcastic, sorry!

  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lycunadari View Post
    And while most queer identities and such have of course existed for a long time, actual knowledge about them has only recently started to spread (with what counts as "recently" very much dependent on where you are.) Like, trans people have always existed, but we just don't know about them, and the few we do know about are often just called crossdressing men/women (like Albert Cashier).
    Except, bizarrely, for intersex people. Anyone who's delivered babies enough times has known intersex people exist, and have for a long time. Intersex animals have existed since long before humans, and they haven't been hiding it.

    Unlike most of the queer community, being intersex can be a physically observable reality.

    And yet, I hear no shortage of people either denying the existence of intersex people, or claiming they are somehow "new." I hear people say things like
    "Back when I was a kid, everyone knew that your gender/sex was just what chromosomes you had, and there were only two possibilities!"
    or
    "Until the last decade everyone knew there were only two genders, and it was just a question of what your genitals looked like!"

    Except, of course, there are more than two combinations for sex chromosomes, and more than two combinations for genitals, and there have been since before humans existed. I can understand how someone might not have heard of intersex people. But once someone learns that they exist, I really can't fathom the willful ignorance someone would need to believe that intersex people magically sprung into existence recently.

  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

    Quote Originally Posted by 137ben View Post
    Except, bizarrely, for intersex people. Anyone who's delivered babies enough times has known intersex people exist, and have for a long time. Intersex animals have existed since long before humans, and they haven't been hiding it.

    Unlike most of the queer community, being intersex can be a physically observable reality.

    And yet, I hear no shortage of people either denying the existence of intersex people, or claiming they are somehow "new." I hear people say things like
    "Back when I was a kid, everyone knew that your gender/sex was just what chromosomes you had, and there were only two possibilities!"
    or
    "Until the last decade everyone knew there were only two genders, and it was just a question of what your genitals looked like!"

    Except, of course, there are more than two combinations for sex chromosomes, and more than two combinations for genitals, and there have been since before humans existed. I can understand how someone might not have heard of intersex people. But once someone learns that they exist, I really can't fathom the willful ignorance someone would need to believe that intersex people magically sprung into existence recently.
    I'm not sure how this was handled historically, but I don't think the majority of people throughout history felt that being intersex said anything about your gender. Or, at least, that's never the idea I got. I think, say, an intersex peasant in medieval times would just be seen as a freak male (or a freak female), not as something valid in its own right.
    Claiming it is something "new" isn't claiming that intersex people are new, but that giving it its own category is new (instead of just flopping it somewhere in either "male" or "female" and calling it a day).
    GRIM ESSENCES - a story about silly people in a gloomy setting; a world bound by Plato-esque rules of perception, where wizards roam free, Gods are servants of mankind, and being a plunderer is a valid career choice. Amidst dangers and mysteries of dubious credibility, heroes and villains alike struggle to shape the world to their liking.

  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

    The nature of different sexes was discussed a lot in the Middle Ages, and also earlier. This caused a necessary discussion of hermaphrodites, as intersex people were then called. This discussion happened on different levels: medical, philosophical, theological, and occasionally in poetry. The common people sure also had their ideas, and each of the disciplines had different theories.
    In the common discourse, hermaphrodites weren't well seen. Lay poetry ascribed them a number of moral failings, which didn't have much to do with sexuality (stuff like perjury). They were a frequent entry in books about monsters. Although it is worth saying that the Latin monstrum is something marvellous and amazing, more than horrible, it is true that their nature could be seen as defective; this caused them to sometimes be excluded from priesthood (in other cases, known hermaphrodites identifying as males were allowed to become priests).
    For what concerns their expected moral conduct in sexual matters, they were to choose a sex and stick to it. This however had variants, so it could be that the child was assigned a sex by the Godfather for the purpose of baptism, and then was allowed to choose a different when choosing whom to marry. Other said that a physician was to have the last word. In doubt, a male baptism name could be used, and later changed to its female form if needed. A theologian said that hermaphrodites should act as if belonging to the sex in whose genitals they were most aroused. A Bolognese canon lawyer said that social interaction was instead the determining factor: if you had male friends and did manly things, then you were a man.
    Now, this clearly referred to people with both sexual organs. Nowadays we have different definitions of intersex. I am not sure if people in the Middle Ages were aware of them.
    However, in Europe, hermaphrodites weren't object of much discussion. It was slightly lively from the end of 1100 to the start of 1300, and then essentially died out.

  12. - Top - End - #102
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

    Most people don't deliver lots of babies and most doctors who do don't have that much of an impact even if they do go around all the time talking about babies being born with ambiguous genitalia.

    Most people also don't know that more chromosomal combinations of human exist than XY and XX.

    So when people talk about things as if intersex people don't exist, that's most likely because those people do not know that intersex people exist, or in some cases learned that they exist once and then forgot about it in the intervening time.
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

    Random questions about gender that just sort of occurred to me.

    1. Nonbinary folks: as I'm sure you know, some cultures have three or four traditionally acknowledged genders. Do any of those resonate with you?

    (I'm not in any way trying to classify people or tell them how to identify! Not not not! I'm just curious about how similar nonbinary genders are between cultures.)

    2. Genderfluid folks: same question as above, referring to when you're not male, female, or agender. You also seem uniquely qualified to answer this one: what, really, are the differences between how men and women process thoughts and feelings? In your experience, obviously not speaking for or over anyone else (please!!).


    If it seems like I'm trying to preemptively defuse things, that's because I am. These questions seem possible to respectfully discuss, but quite loaded all the same. If they're not possible to talk nicely about, please call me out and I'll delete this post . . . I don't know what exactly makes me so worried about this. Logically it should be fine?

  14. - Top - End - #104
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

    Quote Originally Posted by The Eye View Post
    As a straight male I always had many characters in media to be inspired by, it seems the same can't be said by the LGBT people, so I wonder.

    1- What was the first queer character you saw?
    2- Which one you adopted as your role model?

    I think the first character in media that I released was completely queer was fifth element Ruby Rhod.
    1-Brother Berengar from the name of the rose, was the first gay character I ever saw in a movie, not a very flattering example I'm afraid. Is that old enough for you 2D8HP?

    2- Spartans, mostly because of the focus on masculinity and also because they weren't intro butt stuff like the Athenians.
    Last edited by Zurvan; 2017-11-02 at 03:25 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #105
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    Most people don't deliver lots of babies and most doctors who do don't have that much of an impact even if they do go around all the time talking about babies being born with ambiguous genitalia.

    Most people also don't know that more chromosomal combinations of human exist than XY and XX.

    So when people talk about things as if intersex people don't exist, that's most likely because those people do not know that intersex people exist, or in some cases learned that they exist once and then forgot about it in the intervening time.
    Right--I can understand how someone might be unaware that intersex people exist. That included me at one point: I don't remember exactly when I found out that intersex people existed, but it was many years after I first learned that humans have a sexual dimorphism (and, when I first learned that intersex people existed, they were referred to using an older word for intersex).

    What I don't get is how someone could learn that intersex people exist, and still either
    i)Claim that intersex people are a "new thing" that didn't exist a few decades ago
    or
    ii)Believe that intersex people are "made up to advance someone's agenda."

    Both of those claims have been made about virtually all other groups of queer people. But I would think being a physically observable reality would make it a bit more obvious that intersex people weren't "made up" recently.

    Then again, there are also people who think that the world is flat, and that the idea of a round earth was invented by SJWs to fit a political agenda. So, maybe I shouldn't expect the ease of observing a phenomenon to result in people acknowledging that it is real.

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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

    Quote Originally Posted by 137ben View Post
    ....invented by SJWs...

    I first encountered the term "SJW" at this Forum (what can I say, I'm old and out-of-it), and after a quick search I learned, to my bewilderment and annoyance, that it was a slur and that the letter "J" contained in it stood for "Justice".

    Some months later I saw a delightful webcomic, that articulated my confusion, and I have been waiting and quivering in the hope of referencing it:

    Grim specter of noogie hangs like shroud over us all


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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

    Ladies And Gentlemen, Kevin Spacey. . .
    Last edited by ArlEammon; 2017-11-02 at 11:55 PM.

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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

    Quote Originally Posted by AuthorGirl View Post
    Random questions about gender that just sort of occurred to me.

    1. Nonbinary folks: as I'm sure you know, some cultures have three or four traditionally acknowledged genders. Do any of those resonate with you?

    (I'm not in any way trying to classify people or tell them how to identify! Not not not! I'm just curious about how similar nonbinary genders are between cultures.)
    The thing about genders like two spirit, hijra etc is that they are so specific to their culture that I don't think people who are not of that culture can really understand them enough to say that they are that gender. Like, from what I know, two spirit is not just a gender identity but also a spiritual identity and is always in some way connected to being Native American. So it just wouldn't make sense for me as a European person to say that I'm two spirit, because I completely lack the cultural context that defines this identity, and the same goes for other culturally specific genders.

    Quote Originally Posted by AuthorGirl View Post
    2. Genderfluid folks: same question as above, referring to when you're not male, female, or agender. You also seem uniquely qualified to answer this one: what, really, are the differences between how men and women process thoughts and feelings? In your experience, obviously not speaking for or over anyone else (please!!).
    Honestly, I think thoughts and feelings are much more dependent on personality than on gender, and while there might be some tendencies that more women than men process things a certain way (and vice versa) I don't think there are any clear differences, at least none that are inherent to one gender. The differences that exist are likely learned behaviours, stuff like "boys don't cry" leading to boys/men suppressing negative emotions. And all the "fun" ways mental illnesses can distort thoughts and can lead to maladaptive coping mechanisms probably lead to more differences than any gender differences.
    Personally, I haven't really noted any notable changes in thoughts/feelings when my gender changes (apart from explicitly gender related feelings like dysphoria).

    Quote Originally Posted by AuthorGirl View Post
    If it seems like I'm trying to preemptively defuse things, that's because I am. These questions seem possible to respectfully discuss, but quite loaded all the same. If they're not possible to talk nicely about, please call me out and I'll delete this post . . . I don't know what exactly makes me so worried about this. Logically it should be fine?
    You're fine.
    You can call me Juniper.
    Please use gender-neutral pronouns (they/their or ze/hir) when referring to me.

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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lycunadari View Post
    The thing about genders like two spirit, hijra etc is that they are so specific to their culture that I don't think people who are not of that culture can really understand them enough to say that they are that gender. Like, from what I know, two spirit is not just a gender identity but also a spiritual identity and is always in some way connected to being Native American. So it just wouldn't make sense for me as a European person to say that I'm two spirit, because I completely lack the cultural context that defines this identity, and the same goes for other culturally specific genders.
    Makes sense.

    Honestly, I think thoughts and feelings are much more dependent on personality than on gender, and while there might be some tendencies that more women than men process things a certain way (and vice versa) I don't think there are any clear differences, at least none that are inherent to one gender. The differences that exist are likely learned behaviours, stuff like "boys don't cry" leading to boys/men suppressing negative emotions. And all the "fun" ways mental illnesses can distort thoughts and can lead to maladaptive coping mechanisms probably lead to more differences than any gender differences.
    Personally, I haven't really noted any notable changes in thoughts/feelings when my gender changes (apart from explicitly gender related feelings like dysphoria).
    So gender for you comes with its own feelings? I hadn't really thought of that. Like . . . I'm a girl, but that doesn't feel like anything.

    You're fine.
    Whew!

  20. - Top - End - #110
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

    Quote Originally Posted by AuthorGirl View Post
    So gender for you comes with its own feelings? I hadn't really thought of that. Like . . . I'm a girl, but that doesn't feel like anything.
    "Does a fish think about how water feels until it is pulled into air?"
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

    Quote Originally Posted by AuthorGirl View Post
    If it seems like I'm trying to preemptively defuse things, that's because I am. These questions seem possible to respectfully discuss, but quite loaded all the same. If they're not possible to talk nicely about, please call me out and I'll delete this post . . . I don't know what exactly makes me so worried about this. Logically it should be fine?
    I want to say don't worry about it, but history shows otherwise unfortunately. Although that doesn't mean that its not appreciated to try and preempt things, so thanks for that! :D

    I was going to say this earlier, but I was waiting for someone to actually confirm everything was fine, not being genderfluid myself I didn't want to talk for them. But luckly it looks like Juniper says its all good...

    Actually, I have a question for Juniper, and any other non-anglo members of this thread. Most of my experience with the LGBT+ community has been with the english speaking community through the eyes of an english speaker. And I know you (Juniper) have expressed issues with getting your (German right?) family to gender you correctly because of faults in the language. I was wondering if you have any experience in the German LGBT+ community, and if they have any work done on a workable pronoun. One would think that this issue isn't unique.

    And of course I'm sorry if anything I said was wrong or disrespectful... Or if I'm remembering things incorrectly and mixed you up with someone else and am now eating my foot.
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

    Quote Originally Posted by golentan View Post
    "Does a fish think about how water feels until it is pulled into air?"
    Good point.

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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    I first encountered the term "SJW" at this Forum (what can I say, I'm old and out-of-it), and after a quick search I learned, to my bewilderment and annoyance, that it was a slur and that the letter "J" contained in it stood for "Justice".

    Some months later I saw a delightful webcomic, that articulated my confusion, and I have been waiting and quivering in the hope of referencing it:

    <snipped big image>http://www.dorktower.com/files/2017/05/DorkTower1394.jpg</snipped big image>
    Thanks for posting that

    I had pretty much the same confusion when I first heard that phrase.
    (Oh, and "virtue-signalling," that's another one that I never understood why it was supposed to be an insult.)
    Last edited by 137ben; 2017-11-03 at 10:48 PM.

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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

    In Chinese, all pronouns are pronounced the same ("ta"), but the character used is different. Technically, the "male" character can be used as gender-neutral, but otherwise you just have characters for male, female, objects, animals, and deities. I'm also not well-versed enough in Chinese linguistics to know how a neutral character could best be constructed.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Also, as a rule of thumb, if you find yourself defending your inalienable right to make someone else feel like garbage, you're on the wrong side of the argument.
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

    My Japanese is more than a little rusty so someone else can correct me on the nuances. However Japanese doesn't exactly have pronouns as most languages would think of them. Almost any word can be formed at a pronoun; you can use 攻撃ヘリコプター (attack helicopter) as a pseudo-pronoun if you really want to. Some of Japanese's pseudo pronouns for second and third person tend feminine or tend masculine but they're rarely absolutely gendered and you can pretty much always choose a sentence construction that's gender neutral towards people other than yourself. Second and third person pronouns in Japanese do not have issues with being gender neutral unless you really want them to.

    The bad news is that the first person is very gendered. Japanese doesn't have one word for "I' it has more ten depending on the speaker's age, gender, social status, mood and other factors. There are some personal pronouns that can be used by both genders especially if you're going very formal or are very elderly or young.

    Additionally some verbs and sentence endings change according to the speaker's gender. It's very difficult to speak grammatically correct Japanese without revealing your own gender because it's lots of little things woven through the language. I'm not entirely sure how most non-binary Japanese speakers prefer to deal with this. However I know some people who mix up feminine and masculine language within the same sentence. Others try to avoid gendered language as much as possible. The third option is that for formal situations everybody uses feminine language regardless of gender so if you constantly speak very formally... (Seriously Japanese men in formal business meetings will use first person pronouns normally reserved for women in everyday conversations.) So it is possible to be somewhat ambiguous if you keep your speech formal. All together it's not hard to be gender neutral towards other people in Japanese but not gendering yourself is linguistic work.

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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

    Quote Originally Posted by EternalMelon View Post
    Actually, I have a question for Juniper, and any other non-anglo members of this thread. Most of my experience with the LGBT+ community has been with the english speaking community through the eyes of an english speaker. And I know you (Juniper) have expressed issues with getting your (German right?) family to gender you correctly because of faults in the language. I was wondering if you have any experience in the German LGBT+ community, and if they have any work done on a workable pronoun. One would think that this issue isn't unique.

    And of course I'm sorry if anything I said was wrong or disrespectful... Or if I'm remembering things incorrectly and mixed you up with someone else and am now eating my foot.
    There have been some ideas about neutral pronouns (this list has a few though they aren't really usable as they are because they don't actually take German grammar into account), but none that have gained any traction at all, and I don't see that changing any time soon. The problem is that German pronouns are kind of complicated- it's easy to invent new, more or less easy to use and understand pronouns in English because you just need three words (subject/object/possessive; he/him/his, ey/em/eir, ze/hir/hirs as examples) but you need a lot more in German because the possessive pronouns change depending on gender of the object and we have more cases. I was going to make a table to explain it, but it's easier to just link the wikipedia article.

    I actually tried inventing some myself a few years ago: the new pronouns are the ones with the red border, the others are the existing ones. The green boxes are the added forms for the existing possessive pronouns that would be necessary, though I just took the neutrum suffixes for them so it doesn't get any more complicated. I quickly realised that there's no way anyone would understand anything if I used them so I didn't bother to learn them.
    You can call me Juniper.
    Please use gender-neutral pronouns (they/their or ze/hir) when referring to me.

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  27. - Top - End - #117
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

    Quote Originally Posted by golentan View Post
    "Does a fish think about how water feels until it is pulled into air?"
    Does it think about it? Probably not, because fish aren't sapient. But fish certainly understand what water feels like. Because it's touching them and they have receptors for that in their brain. Just like you know when you're outside of water. Or inside water. For that matter.

  28. - Top - End - #118
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

    Quote Originally Posted by Razade View Post
    Does it think about it? Probably not, because fish aren't sapient. But fish certainly understand what water feels like. Because it's touching them and they have receptors for that in their brain. Just like you know when you're outside of water. Or inside water. For that matter.
    What does air feel like when there's no wind?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalirren View Post
    The only person in the past two pages who has known what (s)he has been talking about is Heliomance.
    Quote Originally Posted by golentan View Post
    I just don't want to have long romantic conversations or any sort of drama with my computer, okay? It knows what kind of porn I watch. I don't want to mess that up by allowing it to judge any of my choices in romance.

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  29. - Top - End - #119
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

    Quote Originally Posted by Heliomance View Post
    What does air feel like when there's no wind?
    Depends on humidity levels and warmth.
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  30. - Top - End - #120
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    golentan's Avatar

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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

    The point that people seem to be missing is that your comfort zone fades into the background until you are deprived of it.

    Living things notice changes to the sources of stimulus around them, but stop paying attention at some point unless it's a source of discomfort. We become habituated to our "default."
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    My motto: Repensum Est Canicula.

    Quote Originally Posted by turkishproverb View Post
    I am not getting into a shootout with Golentan. Too many gun-arms.
    Leiningen will win, even if he must lose in the attempt.

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