LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

[Mith]

While I do not pop into thjs thread very often, I am glad I do.

[-Sentinel-]

Random questions that have been weighing on my mind for some time, apologies if they've been asked before...


Do trans women outnumber trans men?

Or are they simply more visible?

If the latter, can anyone venture a theory as to why?

[Recherché]

Anecdotally I've seen a lot more transwomen than trans men but I've also seen a lot more AFAB nonbinary and genderfluid people. I don't know if there are any official stats on it though.

[-Sentinel-]

Anecdotally I've seen a lot more transwomen than trans men but I've also seen a lot more AFAB nonbinary and genderfluid people.

You know, I've observed the same thing.

I'll venture a wild guess. Perhaps it's because androgyny is more socially acceptable for AFAB people than AMAB people, meaning that many AFAB people with masculine leanings are capable of reaching a level of "close enough" without full surgery + hormones transition (via hairstyles, clothes, etc.). AMAB people who are female or female-leaning, for their part, may feel more pressure to "pass" in order to ensure their safety and social acceptance, meaning they're more likely to go all-or-nothing.

[Dire Moose]

I've suspected that there are more AMAB nonbinary people out there than is usually noted, but that many of them call themselves crossdressers instead. Many people who use that label stand out to me as being nonbinary with others simply being closeted trans women.

In particular, a sentiment expressed among the male crossdresser community is that these people are comfortable being male in daily life but have a sort of inner feminine identity that needs to be expressed through dressing as female. That does strike me as being nonbinary.

Come to think of it, I could see that as a decent description of my own identity too, although for me the clothes are primarily a means to the end of seeing and being seen as a woman when I feel the desire to be that way.

[Razade]

Let people label themselves how they want to label themselves.

[Eldest]

Hi everyone!

Happy to see that the LGBT community of this forum is still going strong. I imagine this means that Giant in the Playground is considered a healthy, welcoming space.

I have questions about trans people's names.

Specifically, the thought process that goes into them. So obviously, I'm expecting lots of different answers depending on the person. How did you choose your name when you transitioned? Did you merely think it was a beautiful name? Did you name yourself after a real person or fictional character you admire? Did you simply gender-flip your deadname, e.g. going from Paul to Paula? Did you try several names before settling on one? Are there people who transition but keep the name their parents gave them?

I think that's an interesting subject, because very few people actually get to name themselves.

Thanks!

I tried to pick out a name to keep the same initials, in part to keep my same email address out of lazyness, and in part to try to reassure my family that I wasn't trying to reject them. However, my middle initial was B, and after literal months of looking for a good female 'B' name, I got frustrated and went with Morgan for the night (I was trying going by these names for a few days, seeing what fit and what didn't). And it felt right.

Then when I eventually told my family about it, my parents told me that they were planning on using that name for their firstborn daughter, but when my sister (who is younger) was born "she didn't look like a [name]". Since later on I realized I was in fact the firstborn daughter, it just felt... right, again.

[3WhiteFox3]

Is it weird for me to worry about my motives for questioning my sexuality/gender-identity? I'm worried that questioning my gender is just me trying to 'fit in' with the LGBTAI+ community. I feel that I don't fit most of the traditional ideas of gender and/or sexual orientation but I'm afraid that I might be over-analyzing things or somehow taking advantage of the community.

Are there any LGBTAI people who have also questioned their motives for not identifying the way society wants you to identify? How were you able to handle it?

[noparlpf]

Is it weird for me to worry about my motives for questioning my sexuality/gender-identity? I'm worried that questioning my gender is just me trying to 'fit in' with the LGBTAI+ community. I feel that I don't fit most of the traditional ideas of gender and/or sexual orientation but I'm afraid that I might be over-analyzing things or somehow taking advantage of the community.

Are there any LGBTAI people who have also questioned their motives for not identifying the way society wants you to identify? How were you able to handle it?

I'm pretty sure most of us have questioned if we're "really" not cis/straight at some point. Especially if you don't fit neatly into existing labels. You can read about stuff (on forums/blogs/whatever), talk about it, journal, &c. Feel free to share your experiences here if you want to.

[Jormengand]

I'm pretty sure most of us have questioned if we're "really" not cis/straight at some point. Especially if you don't fit neatly into existing labels. You can read about stuff (on forums/blogs/whatever), talk about it, journal, &c. Feel free to share your experiences here if you want to.

Yeah, this. I've thought I was pretty much every letter on the LGBTQAI list, and several things beyond it, and cis, and straight. Hell, I am most of those things intermittently. There's been a lot of doubt and a lot of imposter syndrome. [BoyMe]Not to mention that I spent loads of today as a cis guy praying that I wouldn't run into too many people I knew so they wouldn't doubt that my alter was sincere about wanting to transition.

(And a lot more of today feeling unmanly and horrible because she does want to and is. Ack, it's almost like genderfluidity and multiple personalities was, like, complicated or something.)[/BoyMe]

[Kesnit]

I have questions about trans people's names.

Specifically, the thought process that goes into them. So obviously, I'm expecting lots of different answers depending on the person. How did you choose your name when you transitioned? Did you merely think it was a beautiful name? Did you name yourself after a real person or fictional character you admire? Did you simply gender-flip your deadname, e.g. going from Paul to Paula? Did you try several names before settling on one? Are there people who transition but keep the name their parents gave them?

I think that's an interesting subject, because very few people actually get to name themselves.

Thanks!

I wanted to keep my initials. This was an issue, because there aren't a lot of names that start with my first initial. There is sort-of a male version of my birth name, but I really hate it. After thinking for a while, I picked a common name with the right first letter, but spelled it the less common way. My middle name was already gender-neutral (and the middle name of both of my parents), so I didn't change it.

Do trans women outnumber trans men?

Or are they simply more visible?

If the latter, can anyone venture a theory as to why?

You know, I've observed the same thing.

I'll venture a wild guess. Perhaps it's because androgyny is more socially acceptable for AFAB people than AMAB people, meaning that many AFAB people with masculine leanings are capable of reaching a level of "close enough" without full surgery + hormones transition (via hairstyles, clothes, etc.). AMAB people who are female or female-leaning, for their part, may feel more pressure to "pass" in order to ensure their safety and social acceptance, meaning they're more likely to go all-or-nothing.

I've been thinking about this for years and pretty much came to the same conclusion. Pre-transition (which I started when I was 30), I had been a semi-butch lesbian for 10 years. (I say semi-butch because if I say butch, people tend to picture a shaved head and biker leathers. ) That was a comfortable identity, and I lived in a progressive enough area that I never got flack for it. In fact, had I not met a trans-woman, I sometimes wonder if I would have transitioned at all. (When she talked about what led her to transition, I recognized a lot of those same feelings in myself. That led me to questioning my own gender identity, then to experimenting with cross-dressing*, and finally to living as male in my personal life. (I did not feel I could transition at work, and waited until I moved away to go back to school to fully transition.)

* Experimenting with cross-dressing was rather easy, as my wardrobe was already mostly men's clothes.

[Sermil]

I didn't want to derail the other LGBTAI+ thread, but I was curious about

Bluh, I keep drifting back to reading terf-y stuff

What's terf-y? And why does it mess with your head?

Thanks

[Comrade]

I didn't want to derail the other LGBTAI+ thread, but I was curious about

What's terf-y? And why does it mess with your head?

Thanks

'TERF' stands for 'trans-exclusionary radical feminist'-- which is to say, those feminists who don't consider transgender women to be 'real' women, so they exclude them from their feminist philosophy and claim they shouldn't be allowed into feminist/women's 'spaces', so to speak.

[The_Snark]

TERF stands for trans-exclusive radical feminist, and while I can't speak for Astrella on the head-messing bit I would guess that it has to do with people telling her that her identity is not only invalid but harmful to other women.

[Potato_Priest]

So, I've realized recently that although I'm sexually attracted to women, I don't really feel romantically attracted to them. (or, to be more accurate, I learned recently that those things don't always go together, and that that describes my situation). However, realizing that I feel little to no romantic attraction to women and knowing if I feel romantic attraction to men is not the same thing. In trying to figure that out, I run up against the issue of defining romantic attraction in the absence of sexual attraction, but dictionaries don't seem to be up to the task (unless you count things like "the state of being romantically attracted to...", which is just not helpful at all.) Thus, I'm sort of trying to figure out if I'm heterosexual homoromantic or heterosexual aromantic without a lot of prior knowledge or expert guidance.

I suppose it really shouldn't matter what the dictionary says about my romantic attractions, and knowing if I'm romantically attracted to my good male friends that I can be emotionally intimate with shouldn't actually matter too much, but I feel like knowing the names of things has helped me understand and come to terms with my emotions so far, and I'd like to continue to learn more. To this end, I suppose I'd like to ask for help with the definitions from any of you out there who might have a more developed understanding of what romantic attraction is in the absence of sexual attraction. What does it feel like for you? How would I know if I'm feeling it myself?

[mtatosky]

This is a really great and uplifting thread, so much good information and just free form sharing. Thank you to whomever started it and those who contribute to it.

[Zen]

Hello all, I'm a CIS male straight white guy, with some questions, so if anything I say is rude, I'm sorry I just don't know any better.

I had no idea trans peopel were a thing, my family is very conservative and I imagened them as depraved perverted sick people.

Everyhting I know about trans folk I learned here, and some really patient folk helped me and I think i learned quite a bit.

But I still have a question.

How do you call cis male guy who is ONLY sexualy interested in CIS women? Is there a term for that? Other than Jerk? xD

[Razade]

How do you call cis male guy who is ONLY sexualy interested in CIS women? Is there a term for that? Other than Jerk? xD

Straight. tencharacters.

[Jormengand]

Hello all, I'm a CIS male straight white guy, with some questions, so if anything I say is rude, I'm sorry I just don't know any better.

I had no idea trans peopel were a thing, my family is very conservative and I imagened them as depraved perverted sick people.

Everyhting I know about trans folk I learned here, and some really patient folk helped me and I think i learned quite a bit.

But I still have a question.

How do you call cis male guy who is ONLY sexualy interested in CIS women? Is there a term for that? Other than Jerk? xD

Cis isn't an acronym, it's an abbreviation just like trans is. You don't need to write it in all-caps.

And I don't know that men who are only interested in cis women, well, exist. There exist post-operation trans women who you couldn't possibly tell weren't cis.

But, well, the answer of "Straight" is kinda correct: men who are only attracted to short women or white women are also straight because "Short woman" and "White woman" are both subsets of "Woman" and men who are only attracted to women are straight. Why should it be any different when you shove "Cis" in the place of "White"?

[noparlpf]

If you're talking about a trans woman who has a penis, that could be a dealbreaker for some (many?) straight guys, so you could just call them straight.

If you're talking about a trans woman who's had HRT and a vaginoplasty, there's no real physical difference between her and a cis woman who's had an ovariohysterectomy. If a guy only loses interest after finding out she's trans I think you'd have to call him transphobic.

[Sivarias]

I saw Greenflames thread and it frankly resonates with me. In the interest of fully understanding the perspective of non-binary people, I have a few questions. I figured it would be better to ask them here rather than try posting a parallel thread. Feel free to answer or tell me to take a hike.

Reading through the Wikipedia articles the 2d8HP posted, it seems to me that the crux of gender identity as discussed in terms of binary and non-binary is based off of the blank-slate idealism? The thought that there are no biological personality differences between sexes and everything we know about masculine and feminine is a social construct? Is that correct?

I have quite a few more but they largely depend on how the above one is answered, so I'll wait to post those.

[Jormengand]

The thought that there are no biological personality differences between sexes and everything we know about masculine and feminine is a social construct? Is that correct?

Andromorphism and gynemorphism and intersexuality (sexes) are physical phenotypes, masculinity and femininity and androgyny (stereotypes) are social constructs, maleness and femaleness and nonbinary genders (genders) are psychological phenomena.

[Sivarias]

maleness and femaleness and nonbinary genders (genders) are psychological phenomena.

Explain that last bit for me? I'm not quite following.

[noparlpf]

Perception of gender identity is a psychological phenomenon that probably depends on a combination of neurology, socialisation, culture, hormones, and maybe some other stuff. It's pretty unclear whether there are significant neurologic differences between males and females; neuropsychology is still really in its infancy. I can't wait until we actually understand how brains work.

[Jormengand]

Explain that last bit for me? I'm not quite following.

"Psychological phenomena" refers to, well, things that are part of who you are or what you're experiencing psychologically, like gender, memory, sense experience, emotion and sexuality, just to name a few.

[Sivarias]

Perception of gender identity is a psychological phenomenon that probably depends on a combination of neurology, socialisation, culture, hormones, and maybe some other stuff. It's pretty unclear whether there are significant neurologic differences between males and females; neuropsychology is still really in its infancy. I can't wait until we actually understand how brains work.

It's your position that it is unknown whether or not there are neurological differences between males and females by sex? I don't want to put words in your mouth, it's just "significant" is a vague definition at best.

"Psychological phenomena" refers to, well, things that are part of who you are or what you're experiencing psychologically, like gender, memory, sense experience, emotion and sexuality, just to name a few.

So sexuality and gender are psychological phenomena which are influenced by a combination of sex, socialization, culture, and other things?

That starts to sound very similar to personal preference in my view. I don't really see a difference between that definition and personality.

I'll try a different question to see if it helps me.

How does one identify as non-binary? Best I can tell it's a spectrum where one can float from a more or less "masculine" or "feminine" or "androgynous" position based on... mood? I'm not really seeing much of a trigger here except for mood. Maybe a non-binary person would be willing to describe a "day-in-the-life" comparing and contrasting a "masculine" or "feminine" day?

Actually. How about I make this simple. Essentially what I'm struggling with, is I don't see any difference between a non-binary person and a dude who happens to enjoy feminine pursuits but still enjoys classically masculine pursuits. It largely just seems synonymous with personality and preference in my eyes, and I've never found a concrete explanation that separates the two.

I'm not talking about traditional trans people. (I really have no idea how to phrase this, but I assume you guys understand). I get that. It's the non-binary gender fluid stance, "there are 32 genders" thing that gets me.

[Jormengand]

So sexuality and gender are psychological phenomena which are influenced by a combination of sex, socialization, culture, and other things?

Pretty much.

That starts to sound very similar to personal preference in my view. I don't really see a difference between that definition and personality.

I mean, it's more an experience than a preference. But try explaining what any experience is like to someone who doesn't have those experiences and they probably won't get it.

(Thought experiment: I'm anosmic - I have no sense of smell. What the hell does "Freshly-cut grass" smell like and why is it supposed to be so be so good?

Thought experiment 2: I have gustatory-colour synæsthesia, and my sister has auditory-colour synæsthesia. I can't explain how something tastes bright green any more than she can explain to me how something can sound yellow.)

How does one identify as non-binary? Best I can tell it's a spectrum where one can float from a more or less "masculine" or "feminine" or "androgynous" position based on... mood? I'm not really seeing much of a trigger here except for mood. Maybe a non-binary person would be willing to describe a "day-in-the-life" comparing and contrasting a "masculine" or "feminine" day?

That's genderfluid you're talking about. Unfortunately, I'm a weird kind of genderfluid (see previous discussion) so I can't really comment on this.

Actually. How about I make this simple. Essentially what I'm struggling with, is I don't see any difference between a non-binary person and a dude who happens to enjoy feminine pursuits but still enjoys classically masculine pursuits. It largely just seems synonymous with personality and preference in my eyes, and I've never found a concrete explanation that separates the two.

How about "Science has spoken and you're wrong. You don't have to understand it, just handle it."

Or you could actually read the psychological literature, but I'm going to assume you're either unable or unwilling to do that.

I get that. It's the non-binary gender fluid stance, "there are 32 genders" thing that gets me.

37 is the traditional, IIRC, but really, putting an exact number on it is kinda silly.

[Sivarias]

Pretty much.

I mean, it's more an experience than a preference. But try explaining what any experience is like to someone who doesn't have those experiences and they probably won't get it.

(Thought experiment: I'm anosmic - I have no sense of smell. What the hell does "Freshly-cut grass" smell like and why is it supposed to be so be so good?

Thought experiment 2: I have gustatory-colour synæsthesia, and my sister has auditory-colour synæsthesia. I can't explain how something tastes bright green any more than she can explain to me how something can sound yellow.)

Very good point. I would still like to hear from a "normal" gender-fluid person if they are willing. Or you. Data is always useful.

How about "Science has spoken and you're wrong. You don't have to understand it, just handle it."

Or you could actually read the psychological literature, but I'm going to assume you're either unable or unwilling to do that.

I would love to, unfortunately the closest I have found to psychological literature regarding this is that horrid video by Bill Nye. I haven't seen any psychological or biological evidence. A lot of it read as propaganda to me. If you know any open sourced studies I would love to read them.

37 is the traditional, IIRC, but really, putting an exact number on it is kinda silly.

I was quoting a copypasta. I didn't realize that the number was close to serious. Interesting.

[noparlpf]

It's your position that it is unknown whether or not there are neurological differences between males and females by sex? I don't want to put words in your mouth, it's just "significant" is a vague definition at best.

To quote Wikipedia, since they actually put it fairly well, "...Neural sexual dimorphisms in humans exist only as averages, with overlapping variabilities, and it is unknown to what extent each is influenced by genetics or environment, even in adulthood." A lot of the studies into sexual dimorphism in the human brain have come up with conflicting results. It's also a spectrum, so there can be cis women with brains that look more "male" and vice versa. Finally, it's impossible to study humans in a cultural vacuum, so it's practically impossible to tell whether the sexual dimorphisms that are observed most consistently are intrinsic or if they're influenced by how boys and girls are socialised differently within a cultural context.

[EternalMelon]

I was quoting a copypasta. I didn't realize that the number was close to serious. Interesting.

I believe that this is something someone would refer to as a "joke", or a humorous statement not meant to be taken seriously.