Which edition had the most powerful wizard?

[Tinkerer]

Okay. I think that there are a few questions that we need to address.

1) What is the level of these wizards that we are imagining? Because as has been pointed out some wizards cap out earlier than others while some editions are pretty much unlimited (although that may not be enough to help).

2) Do we ban obviously broken (as in not functioning as intended) things?

3) How are we measuring power? Are the wizards fighting each other? Is it their ability to affect the world? If it is a melee then do the wizards have buff time? Are they assumed to have the spells which they always have on functioning?

4) Length of the round. I'm in favour of going with Mark Hall's suggestion of equalizing round time, especially considering in older editions it was explicitly variable (they said the round lasts for as long as the GM needs it to).

5) Equipment. Not all editions have a wealth by level system. Not all editions have equivalent magic items. Do we assume that they are naked? As interesting as a bunch of old wizards shaking their wands at each other might be I think we should at least give them robes.

6) Custom creations. True Dweomers come to mind here as while there is an explicit and detailed creation system for them the GM has to approve the spell as the final step in spell creation. Because they can easily overpower things like the infinite wish machine.

[rferries]

AD&D, specifically Dragonlance and Ravenloft, specifically Raistlin and Vecna, because they were able to become gods.

Oh, you mean from a gameplay perspective? :D Going strictly by non-munchkinism and core books, probably 3.5 - hit points, feats, skill points, saves, AC, bonus spells etc would all be better than a comparable wizard from an earlier edition.

[Beelzebubba]

Yes, but we're not dealing with box cutters (fighters and the like). This is like asking if a Rapier is a better weapon than a Sabre, while the consensus is that it is a slightly better weapon, it's not a better weapon in enough of a meaningful sense that it would override the competencies of the wielder. And it's close enough that the competencies of people involved might easily blur the answer to this question.

Dude this is a theoretical exercise, it's assuming perfect players, at maximum efficiency. Your wishy-washy relativism doesn't belong.

[SpoonR]

I'm going to suggest 2E Sha'ir. At level 20, has access to the entire wizard spell list, and some access to the priest list (depending on how much risk you take). On average, can cast a spell every 15 rounds, with no limit on spell points or spells per day. So in a non-combat situation, disintegrate as much of the mountain as you want.

In combat, stack up as many turn or longer duration buffs & defenses. Not sure what those spells would be, but should be enough to make up for only casting fireball once per 4 rounds.

Oops, yep. Apparently we were using 1st edition Astral Plane definitions back then (this was a long time ago) which is quite different than the second edition. And even at that we managed to get it backwards. Time passes at the same rate as on the Prime Material but you only feel the effects of it passing at 1/365000 the speed. However it didn't have the time catching up problem in 1st. Ah well, young players will often misinterpret rules in their favour.

In the rules I remember, "stuff" was slowed down in Astral. You never get hungry, but you can't heal by resting, and you can't memorize spells without leaving.

[Segev]

3e, but it's close between them and 5e. At least at high level. A 5e illusionist at high level is almost a reality warper with what he can do with illusions like mirage arcane.

[enderlord99]

two words: pun pun

Yes, I suppose it is possible to make Pun-Pun on a Wizard base, but since that's not the "strongest wizard" he's the "strongest character" that just happens to have "wizard" written on the sheet. His powers come from forcing a Sarukh to give him Manipulate Form via Manipulate Form while he is a Kobobld; they do not come from class levels, Wizard or otherwise.

[Calthropstu]

3.pf
Gestalted, epic mythic character.
Can you even imagine an epic mythic spell?

[Quertus]

AD&D, specifically Dragonlance and Ravenloft, specifically Raistlin and Vecna, because they were able to become gods.

Oh, you mean from a gameplay perspective? :D Going strictly by non-munchkinism and core books, probably 3.5 - hit points, feats, skill points, saves, AC, bonus spells etc would all be better than a comparable wizard from an earlier edition.

Nah, non-munchkinism and core books, 3.0 clearly beats 3.5. Better Haste, better Polymorph, no munchkin Wish.

But my experience does agree - characters were much more likely to ascend in earlier editions.

Okay. I think that there are a few questions that we need to address.

1) What is the level of these wizards that we are imagining? Because as has been pointed out some wizards cap out earlier than others while some editions are pretty much unlimited (although that may not be enough to help).

I mean, my 2e build was starting at level 1, and winning at item creation even vs epic competition. Or was that a different thread? Darn senility.

2) Do we ban obviously broken (as in not functioning as intended) things?

While I love Rules as Intended, how does one measure intent here? If it's 2e or earlier, I'd argue that the intent was to sell books, and they succeeded.

I suspect the Playground will want to ban anything that goes infinite. Beyond (or, perhaps, even with) that, it feels like it defeats the purpose of the exercise to go banning things. "Lord of the Pit is the most powerful card in Magic, if you ban everything more powerful than it" really doesn't mean much.

3) How are we measuring power? Are the wizards fighting each other? Is it their ability to affect the world? If it is a melee then do the wizards have buff time? Are they assumed to have the spells which they always have on functioning?

If your buff spells aren't lasting all day, you either aren't optimizing hard enough, or your edition has failed the test already.

Defining power... If it is to be given a set definition - and I'm not saying it should, mind - but if it is, it should be success at doing what they do: adventuring. Ideally with a party.

4) Length of the round. I'm in favour of going with Mark Hall's suggestion of equalizing round time, especially considering in older editions it was explicitly variable (they said the round lasts for as long as the GM needs it to).

I won't argue. 2e is a contender even with longer rounds, but comparisons are easier this way.

5) Equipment. Not all editions have a wealth by level system. Not all editions have equivalent magic items. Do we assume that they are naked? As interesting as a bunch of old wizards shaking their wands at each other might be I think we should at least give them robes.

Older editions have modules, some of which are well written enough to have expected loot value in addition to expected XP for characters. This sounds like a good basis for expected wealth by level.

That having been said, having an expected wealth by level puts both a floor and a ceiling on 3e and later mages' power. Mages in older editions have no such ceiling, and may well own more artifacts than they can carry.

6) Custom creations. True Dweomers come to mind here as while there is an explicit and detailed creation system for them the GM has to approve the spell as the final step in spell creation. Because they can easily overpower things like the infinite wish machine.

Yeah, 2e True Dwoemers are a decided vote in favor of 2e mages being more powerful than their other edition counterparts. I don't know about them beating the infinite wish machine, though.

[Blas_de_Lezo]

AD&D, Defiler Wizard from Dark Sun. Powerhouse of a wizard with INE of the fastest experience progresión by level.

[Quertus]

AD&D, Defiler Wizard from Dark Sun. Powerhouse of a wizard with INE of the fastest experience progresión by level.

While still advancing at a 50th of the pace of a 3e wizard, instead of a hundredth of the pace, like a normal 2e mage? I don't think "advancement rate" is going to be a selling point of power on older edition mages.

I do agree, that higher Athasian stats and free wild talents are nice. But don't Athasian wizards have a pretty hard level 30 cap?