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2017-09-29, 07:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Villainous Competition XXIII: Two Heads Are Better Than One
Cephalization from wikipedia:
Cephalization is considered an evolutionary trend,[1] whereby nervous tissue, over many generations, becomes concentrated toward one end of an organism. This process eventually produces a head region with sensory organs.
@ Marriam-Webster:
anterior region = front region, and the central eye + mouth are the front region.
@ Oxfort:
talks also about the front parts of animals. Further "typically separated from the rest of the body by a neck" means also, that there can be untypical heads, thus this is not a strict requirement. typically != always
Sry, but I still fail to see any real evidence.Extended Signature with Links to all my build showcases in the forum
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2017-09-29, 09:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Villainous Competition XXIII: Two Heads Are Better Than One
Is it that hard to have one competition without people arguing about (in this case not even participating) rule decisions that would fall to the judges or the Chairs purview any way?
Last edited by GrayDeath; 2017-09-29 at 09:59 AM.
A neutron walks into a bar and says, “How much for a beer?” The bartender says, “For you? No charge.”
01010100011011110010000001100010011001010010000001 10111101110010001000000110111001101111011101000010 00000111010001101111001000000110001001100101001011 100010111000101110
Later: An atom walks into a bar an asks the bartender “Have you seen an electron? I left it in here last night.” The bartender says, “Are you sure?” The atom says, “I’m positive.”
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2017-09-29, 10:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Villainous Competition XXIII: Two Heads Are Better Than One
Okay, I'm a professional biologist, and I've taught invertebrate anatomy twice at the college level (I've dissected a couple dozen squid, and hundreds of insects and spiders). I want you to know that anatomy is not the black-and-white picture you're painting. Here is my input on the discussion regarding anatomy:
- "Cephalization" does not mean you have head: it means you have a distinct front and back end, with brain tissue focused towards the front end. If cephalization is the key word for the Multi-Headed template, then a beholder clearly qualifies (look at the anatomy diagram from Lords of Madness), as does a maggot, a slug and a nematode worm.
- Does a squid have a discernible head? I'd say "yes." However, using technical anatomical terminology, there doesn't seem to be a discernible "body": the mantle is not the body, but just the fleshy "cloak" that surrounds it. As far as I can determine, malacologists do not use any specific terminology for the squid's "body" region, and laypersons often inaccurately equate the mantle with the body. But, the head is just the capsule where the eyes, mouth and brain are. Curiously, the arms and tentacles are the squid's "foot," and they are not considered part of its head, so using strict, biological terminology for your D&D game, you would have to conclude that a squid with the Multi-Headed template would not get extra Arms or Tentacle attacks. Of course, since the "head" is wedged in the middle of the squid body plan, I'm not exactly sure where the extra head would grow, and might be inclined to reject a Multi-Headed squid as a valid build.
- Does a monstrous spider have a discernible head? Well, one of the defining characteristics of an arachnid is that the head and thorax are fused into one body region, called the "cephalothorax," so the answer seems to be "no." Then again, as a trained arachnologist, I can discern where the spider's "cephalic region" (i.e, head) is, and can use features of the cephalic region to identify some spiders to species. So, maybe the answer is actually "yes." Personally, I would lean towards "no" on this one for pragmatic reasons, but since y'all seem adamant on using technical, scientific definitions for things, perhaps you should also use the expertise of a scientist when deciding whether or not something can be "discerned."
- Does a centipede have a discernible head? That answer is, most assuredly, "yes." Curious fact, though: the centipede's "fangs" are actually not on its head: they're modified legs that grow on the first body segment behind the head. So, using strict biological terminology for your D&D game would lead you to conclude that a Multi-Headed centipede should not gain a second Bite attack, and a Tauric centipede should be allowed to keep its Bite attack. However, it seems that the designers were not particularly concerned about faithfully representing centipede anatomy when they wrote those templates, so the exact reverse of a proper biological understanding of centipedes is upheld by those templates.
- How about a shark? Or other fish? Anatomically, a fish has a head. Clearly. However, there is no neck, and the head actually kind of blends into the body. So, functionally speaking, it's not all that different from a spider's cephalothorax, and in overall appearance, a fish is really not that different from a beholder, either: a single, uncontoured body with a face and brain on one end. So, I think drawing a line between the two is a pretty arbitrary decision.
- To me, a beholder has a discernible "head," but I would not consider the eyestalks to be on the "head." So, a two-headed beholder, in my mind, would most appropriately be constructed as a beholder with a face on each end (or two faces, side by side), which consequently has two bite attacks and two anti-magic cones, but the normal number of eye rays. Clearly, Thurbane thought differently, and that's okay with me: either one would have been a valid entry into this contest, in my opinion. That's not to say I would have scored them highly, were I a judge; but I do think such entries should have been allowed.
To try to make this into a technical discussion about what is and isn't a head is a fool's errand. Anyone can make an argument based on whatever principle they want, and you're deluding yourself if you think there are simple, definitive, black-and-white solutions to things like this, even in appeals to technical, rigid, scientific discourse on the matter.
I think the proper way to handle a contest like this is to err on the side of inclusivity. We don't need a priori rulings on what poorly-worded or ambiguous template prereqs mean: we have judges who are specifically asked to rate things like "creativity" and "build elegance." Let them be the arbiters of what does and doesn't fit the spirit of the competition, because that's precisely the job description of a contest judge.
If someone had tried to enter a gibbering mouther, arguing that it has multiple heads, I say the way to handle this would not be to argue with the entrant about the definition of "head," but to just allow the entry, and see what the judges say. Chances are, the entry would not have scored well, because while some judges might have thought it was a creative take on the theme, most would probably regard it as "inelegant" (at least) or cheeky. And that's okay: that is, after all, exactly what the judges are there for. Then again, somebody might have come up with a really interesting way to build a gibbering mouther around a multi-headed theme, so rejecting it outright would be a travesty, in my opinion.
It's just a nervous habit: I worry too much about people taking me too seriously.Last edited by Blue Jay; 2017-09-29 at 10:48 AM.
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2017-09-29, 04:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Villainous Competition XXIII: Two Heads Are Better Than One
My winning competition entries: Kinvig Arrumskor | The Great Pumpkinhead | Wynfrith d'Acker
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2017-09-29, 06:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Villainous Competition XXIII: Two Heads Are Better Than One
Agreed. More energy should be devoted to appreciation of these builds. I'm getting the chance to read them in detail now, and it's an excellent round. If I do poorly here I will not be disappointed.
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2017-09-29, 07:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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2017-09-29, 07:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Villainous Competition XXIII: Two Heads Are Better Than One
Saw these images in my Facebook feed today (Stan Winston School of Character Arts)...Half-Farspawn Multiheaded Were-Dire Boar Forest Giant maybe?
Spoiler: Large ImagesMy winning competition entries: Kinvig Arrumskor | The Great Pumpkinhead | Wynfrith d'Acker
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2017-09-29, 07:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Villainous Competition XXIII: Two Heads Are Better Than One
...the heck? O_O
Looks like the Big Bad Wolf miiiiiiight be in a sticky situation.Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
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2017-09-30, 11:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Villainous Competition XXIII: Two Heads Are Better Than One
That's a great picture. I think I'd go 3 half-farspawn anthropomorphic pigs using Fusion and expansion.
Reminds me a lot of Bi-Beast
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Fun fact: only 2 of his heads are evil.Kolyarut Avatar by Potatocubed.
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2017-09-30, 01:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Villainous Competition XXIII: Two Heads Are Better Than One
Some Gazebo Jones-level of wtf entries, this round! Congrats, all :D
I was aiming for a Sharn follower of Demogorgon, that would have ripped off one of its own heads to more resemble its two-headed patron. I would have then advanced it to CR 10 and slapped all 10 levels of Thrall of Demogorgon. The trick would have been the fact that Aberration CR increases by 1 for every 4 HDs adding, but Sharns are natural Sorcerer 7/Cleric 5 casters with two standard actions per round, that gain one sorcerer or cleric caster level for each HD they gain. As a result, for the cosr of CR +2 the Sharn would have gained 8 sorcerer levels, and then spammed Polymorph Any Object to turn everything into a two-headed monster of the same type (for the permanent duration) and then diplomancing it for the greater glory of Demogorgon.VC XV, The horsemen are drawing nearer: The Alien and the Omen (part 1 and part 2).
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2017-09-30, 01:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Villainous Competition XXIII: Two Heads Are Better Than One
I was pondering an advanced two headed spell warped blink dog called Hound of Demikhov, but that seemed too morbid.
Last edited by ZamielVanWeber; 2017-09-30 at 01:45 PM.
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2017-10-01, 06:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Villainous Competition XXIII: Two Heads Are Better Than One
So...we have two potential judges?
My winning competition entries: Kinvig Arrumskor | The Great Pumpkinhead | Wynfrith d'Acker
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2017-10-01, 10:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Villainous Competition XXIII: Two Heads Are Better Than One
I have been reviewing the entries, fear not. There was just a lot more to moving than I thought.
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2017-10-01, 10:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Villainous Competition XXIII: Two Heads Are Better Than One
My winning competition entries: Kinvig Arrumskor | The Great Pumpkinhead | Wynfrith d'Acker
Torn-City - Massively multiplayer online browser based crime RPG
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2017-10-02, 05:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Villainous Competition XXIII: Two Heads Are Better Than One
Job Trouble came up.
Should be settled by wednesday, which is when I`ll begin serious judging (as opposed to skimming over the entries and looking for obvious stuff^^).A neutron walks into a bar and says, “How much for a beer?” The bartender says, “For you? No charge.”
01010100011011110010000001100010011001010010000001 10111101110010001000000110111001101111011101000010 00000111010001101111001000000110001001100101001011 100010111000101110
Later: An atom walks into a bar an asks the bartender “Have you seen an electron? I left it in here last night.” The bartender says, “Are you sure?” The atom says, “I’m positive.”
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2017-10-02, 03:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Villainous Competition XXIII: Two Heads Are Better Than One
is there an idiots guide to VC for someone w/ no exp building monsters? Just in case someone had any kind of idea or wanted to attempt a build in the future...
How is CR calculated, especially when you're making something, not just starting off w/ a base thing and adding class lvls to it?
Originally Posted by Peelee
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2017-10-02, 03:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Villainous Competition XXIII: Two Heads Are Better Than One
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2017-10-02, 04:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Villainous Competition XXIII: Two Heads Are Better Than One
i meant more if you're adding templates, do the crs automatically go up? what if it's a LA +0 template? what if it has no CR listed (does that exist?)
if i'm just taking something out of a MM or another book and adding class levels to it, that doesn't seem as hard, except i'd want to build it as a PC (that's my xp) which might make it unkillable? (one can hope right?)
Originally Posted by Peelee
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2017-10-02, 04:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Villainous Competition XXIII: Two Heads Are Better Than One
start here and it'll cover the basics of building a monster either with or without class levels
cr is calculated by taking the base cr of the creature (which is listed) and then adding 1 for each class level you take, and then the relevant amount for any templates (if any) you apply, which are listed in the template entry.
you are not allowed to make up your own monsters. you have to use printed ones from the acceptable sources spelled out in the op
it depends on the template. LA is not relevant. vc is tabulated by cr, so check that. no, it's not.
taking a monster and adding class levels is pretty much the whole thing. don't strive solely for unkillability. there are many ways, and they're not in and of themselves a recipe for a good score. not to stormwind or imply a weak entry automatically scores well, but just do something you enjoy, and you'll probably do fine.I've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.
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2017-10-02, 04:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Villainous Competition XXIII: Two Heads Are Better Than One
Templates list what their CR adjustment is.
There are a couple of things that can trip folks up with regards to the VC competition. Both rules are found in the Monster Manual.
The first is how adding class levels affect CR. Class levels are considered either "Associated" or "Non-Associated". Associated class levels add to CR on a 1 for 1 basis (every Associated class level adds +1 CR). Non-Associated class levels add to CR on a 2 for 1 basis (every 2 Non-Associated class levels add +1 CR). For this competition, all classes are considered Associated (as per the OP).
The second is how adding advancing Monster by HD works (and affects CR). This is best covered in the back of the Monster Manual (under the Improving Monsters section). But it boils down to different creature types have different amounts of HD they can advance per +1 CR increase.
Important to note, LA has nothing to do with this competition.
Edit - And Venger swoops in with a link to Ur-Priest's Monster handbook!Last edited by Deadline; 2017-10-02 at 04:52 PM.
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2017-10-02, 06:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Villainous Competition XXIII: Two Heads Are Better Than One
holee crap, that is a lot to read. I'll get right on that, thanks
Originally Posted by Peelee
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2017-10-02, 07:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Villainous Competition XXIII: Two Heads Are Better Than One
ok, to clarify:
for base stats, you take the elite array, and then take the stats in the book and either subtract 10 or 11 depending on odd or even and add that number to the array number to find the actual stat for the entry at whatever it's base CR is, right?
Originally Posted by Peelee
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2017-10-02, 07:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Villainous Competition XXIII: Two Heads Are Better Than One
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2017-10-02, 08:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Villainous Competition XXIII: Two Heads Are Better Than One
I've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.
Check out my NEW sci-fi TTRPG about first contact. Cool alien races, murderous AIs, and more. New expansion featuring rules for ships! New book here NOW!
Iron Chef Medals!
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2017-10-02, 10:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Villainous Competition XXIII: Two Heads Are Better Than One
Maybe we should do a hypothetical basic entry (for no particular competition): Let's say it's a Half-Fiend Ettercap Cleric. We'll call him Ernie.
Stats
Ettercap stats are as follows: Str 14, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 6, Wis 15, Cha 8; that translates to ability mods of Str +4, Dex +6, Con +2, Int -4, Wis +4, Cha -2
Half-fiend stat modifiers are: Str +4, Dex +4, Con +2, Int +4, Cha +2
Ernie's total ability mods are Str +8 (+4/+4), Dex +10 (+6/+4), Con +4 (+2/+2), Int +0 (-4/+4), Wis +4, Cha +0
Next, well assign his array: Str 13 (+8), Dex 8 (+10), Con 14 (+4), Int 10, Wis 15 (+4), Cha 12.
Since he starts play with 5RHD, he gets ability bonuses a 8HD, 12 HD and 16HD. Let's put them all in Wisdom.
Ernie's final stats are: Str 21, Dex 18, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 22, Cha 12.
CR
CR is a little tricky, as Half-fiend CR increases as you gain HD.
Ernie would start out at CR 5 (3 for Ettercap, +2 for Half fiend); once he gets to 11HD (i.e. Cleric 6), the CR increase for Half-fiend jumps to CR +3.
His build table would look something like this:
CR Class Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Skills Feats Class Features 5 Outsider 1 +x +x +x +x 36 Great Fortitude* Ettercap + half-fiend abilities 5 Outsider 2 +x +x +x +x 9 5 Outsider 3 +x +x +x +x 9 Multiattack* 5 Outsider 4 +x +x +x +x 9 5 Outsider 5 +x +x +x +x 9 6 Cleric 1 +x +x +x +x 3 6th level feat choice Turn or rebuke undead 7 Cleric 2 +x +x +x +x 3 8 Cleric 3 +x +x +x +x 3 9 Cleric 4 +x +x +x +x 3 9th level feat choice 10 Cleric 5 +x +x +x +x 3 12 Cleric 6 +x +x +x +x 3 13 Cleric 7 +x +x +x +x 3 12th level feat choice 14 Cleric 8 +x +x +x +x 3 15 Cleric 9 +x +x +x +x 3 16 Cleric 10 +x +x +x +x 3 15th level feat choice 17 Cleric 11 +x +x +x +x 3 18 Cleric 12 +x +x +x +x 3 19 Cleric 13 +x +x +x +x 3 18th level feat choice 20 Cleric 14 +x +x +x +x 3
...if I get time later I might fill in the blanks.
Hope this helps?My winning competition entries: Kinvig Arrumskor | The Great Pumpkinhead | Wynfrith d'Acker
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2017-10-02, 10:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Villainous Competition XXIII: Two Heads Are Better Than One
its past my bedtime, i'll look it over in depth tmw and post any q's. I'm only i think 1/2 way thru that guide anyways
Originally Posted by Peelee
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2017-10-03, 12:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Villainous Competition XXIII: Two Heads Are Better Than One
Maybe this is another tangent, but are you sure the Half-Fiend template works this way? Usually, template abilities don't scale with class levels. For example, the Book of Exalted Deeds discusses on p. 27 how to modify the LA of the Half-Celestial template based on the creature's racial HD, and it seems to assume that there is no scaling of the template's abilities beyond what you start with: so a base-race creature gets a static LA +2 for Half-Celestial.
Last edited by Blue Jay; 2017-10-03 at 12:22 AM.
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2017-10-03, 01:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Villainous Competition XXIII: Two Heads Are Better Than One
Well, it's pretty clear, looking at both the Half-Fiend and Half-Celestial templates, that the abilities are meant to scale, since they all mention HD instead of RHD. And even then, it's not like it's impossible to increase RHD, either.
Leaving aside the fact that LA doesn't matter in this competition anyway, it's quite likely the BoED writers simply messed up, as it was written quite early in 3.5's history and we all know that the designers didn't have a great grasp of their own system back then. Information on the Half-Celestial template should default back to whatever the Monster Manual has on it anyway, as it is the primary source.
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2017-10-03, 01:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Villainous Competition XXIII: Two Heads Are Better Than One
I've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.
Check out my NEW sci-fi TTRPG about first contact. Cool alien races, murderous AIs, and more. New expansion featuring rules for ships! New book here NOW!
Iron Chef Medals!
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2017-10-03, 01:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Villainous Competition XXIII: Two Heads Are Better Than One
Last edited by Thurbane; 2017-10-03 at 01:22 AM.
My winning competition entries: Kinvig Arrumskor | The Great Pumpkinhead | Wynfrith d'Acker
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