What's so great about PF?

[Knaight]

Eh, it's a pretty insignificant change when weighed against the sheer weight of options in a 3e type game. I think having to pick an extra feat or two cancels out most of what's gained. By the time you start doing a lot of multiclassing, you've already got enough system mastery to deal with cross-class skills.

It's not for people way into the system, but for the groups who tend to stick to core rules anyways it makes a difference.

[CharonsHelper]

The only time TWF comes out ahead is if you have riders (poison, precision, etc) on the attacks that outweigh the basic damage.

I don't know about in 3.5 (overall less static damage - but inferior two-handed Power Attack), but in Pathfinder nearly every class gets about 15-20% more DPR with TWF than going two-handed (not for the first couple levels - but increasing as you level and gain static damage), but at the cost of feats, and with greater reduction due to DR or not getting a full attack. For classes such as rogues (when getting SA) or samurai (with challenge up) the % is higher.

And that doesn't count riders such as the critical effect feats (which a TWF samurai especially should definitely be using since they get bonus to crit chance & qualify for Fighter only feats).

[rel]

"Often"? Really? How about showing us some examples.

looking over my last few 3.5 characters I see the following doods who seem to qualify:

1)
An alchemist who brews magic potions and throws them at people. Pathfinder alchemist seems like a perfect fit.

Except the pathfinder alchemist doesn't really make potions he gets wierd pseudo spells so fighting with potions exclusively isn't really tenable.

Also simple intuitive things like passing a potion off to a friend or breaking out the armoury in a tough fight and arming the whole party with your best weapons can't really happen.

In Pathfinder you don't feel like a dood who makes things you feel like just another magic user.

If you want to play the kind of alchemist who as a desperate last resort can upend his bag of goodies on an enemy and when the DM asks 'how much damage?' reply 'yes.' then you will not find it in pathfinder.

2)
Wand wizard. If you want to be jim darkmagic then you are out of luck, there simply isn't support for unsheathing a pair of tripple wand claws and having enemies respond with fear rather than mirth in pathfinder.

3)
The Doublecaster. This is a character I have made a few times over the years strives to master both arcane and divine magic and has the signiature move of casting arcane magic with one hand and divine with the other getting out 2 spells per round.

4)
The survivor. A gish that meshes a strong solo combat style with enough utility to meet most challenges. Mostly this bastard just never quits.

Throw him naked and unassisted into 20 back to back encounters with CR equal to his level and he'll probably win most of them and has enough tricks to escape the rest.

Sustain is the name of the game and the survivor plays to win.

5)
The lobster. So named because he has a lot of the mannerisms of dr Zoidberg and is also really annoying. This guy doesn't achieve very much but he is immune or at least highly resistant to pretty much everything.
usefull to have around for tripping traps and touching suspicious widgets. In combat he mostly just tries to trick the enemy into wasting their time attacking him.

[Kurald Galain]

looking over my last few 3.5 characters I see the following doods who seem to qualify:

Let's see what we can do with that in Pathfinder.

(1) I share your complaint that the alchemist's extracts don't act like potions; I've always found it poor design that they stop working in the hands of anyone else. That said, there's a discovery you can take at level 2 that fixes this (Infusion; I think that every alchemist I've seen has it).

(2) I'm really not sure what you want mechanically from this build, but anything with claw attacks that can get (e.g.) flaming on his claws seems like it should work. Add the Dazzling Display / Disheartening Display feats to literally frighten away your enemies.

(3) Empyreal sorcerer / warpriest going into mystic theurge. The warpriest's fervor ability allows you to swift-cast divine spells (starting at level 2), letting you cast arcane spells as normal. Both sides cast on wisdom, and at least one early entry trick still exists.

(4) The concept is easy, you play a Magus. Grab a random twig, use your arcane pool, and you have a +1 Flaming Shock twig; or fight unarmed if you want, that's also an option. Lots of utility spells on the Magus's list, you can get a few more from the wizard list if you want, and there's the hexcrafter archetype for added endurance.

(5) I've seen at least two builds in Pathfinder who do precisely that. One is a paladin/monk with ludicrous saving throws, the other is a fighter using defensive combat to boost AC into something unhittable. Neither deals much damage, they hinder enemies by e.g. geting in the way or tripping them.

...that was easier than I thought. Of course, for several of these you don't seem to just want a concept, but also want a top-tier build that can solo higher-level encounters with this concept. I don't see it as a drawback of the system that it is more balanced so that "I want X" is pretty easy but "I want X and it must be overpowered" is not.

[rel]

Alright, lets have a look

(1) I share your complaint that the alchemist's extracts don't act like potions; I've always found it poor design that they stop working in the hands of anyone else. That said, there's a discovery you can take at level 2 that fixes this (Infusion; I think that every alchemist I've seen has it).

the potions are still fundamentally a class feature usable x times per day. You can't stockpile a months worth of crafting to drop on someone, you don't get a boost to power whenever you score some extra loot and you don't suffer any inconvenience if you find yourself running short on money. It doesn't FEEL like crafting. Because it isn't.

(2) I'm really not sure what you want mechanically from this build, but anything with claw attacks that can get (e.g.) flaming on his claws seems like it should work. Add the Dazzling Display / Disheartening Display feats to literally frighten away your enemies.

No, you misunderstand, I want to shoot people with wands. Lots of wands. Like 3 wands. on each hand. and I want that to be effective. So effective that enemies flee in terror not because of a mechanical fear effect but because they know what is coming and don't want to face it.

(3) Empyreal sorcerer / warpriest going into mystic theurge. The warpriest's fervor ability allows you to swift-cast divine spells, letting you cast arcane spells as normal. Both sides cast on wisdom, and at least one early entry trick still exists.

sadly you can only use fervor to cast spells on yourself. cool idea though.

(4) The concept is easy, you play a Magus. Grab a random twig, use your arcane pool, and you have a +1 Flaming Shock twig. Take hexcrafter archetype for added endurance.

This does not work. Ignoring the magus' lack of good utility, the arcane pool is a very limited resource. The whole point of the survivor is sustain. The ability to keep fighting long after any other character would have succumbed.
Also, the magus does not have particularly good escape or defense options so you go down to mundane attrition even if you can deal damage reliably.
I've played a magus and in my experience they are glass cannons that burn brightly but do not burn long.

(5) I've seen at least two builds in Pathfinder who do precisely that. One is a paladin/monk with ludicrous saving throws, the other is a fighter using defensive combat to boost AC into something unhittable. Neither deals much damage, they hinder enemies by e.g. geting in the way or tripping them.

ludicrous saves / AC are nice but there are a lot of effects that bypass saves / AC so I don't think the lobster concept could survive without blanket immunities or similar esoteric defense tricks that I so far havent seen in pathfinder.


Thanks for the suggestions but I remain unconvinced of pathfinders ability to produce characters that don't conform to the predefined archetypes handed down by the games designers.

[Kurald Galain]

Alright, lets have a look

Regarding the alchemist, are you basically looking for the Brew Potion and Craft Wondrous Item feats? The alchemist class does get crafting bonuses.

For the wand wielder, the wizard discovery Staff-Like Wand seems to be what you're looking for. It won't let you hextuple-wield wands and shoot them simultaneously, but AFAIK you can't do that in 3E either.

For the survivor, you should look at the Magus's spell list again if you think it lacks utility, escape, or defense; because it has plenty of that (and in addition, it can easily add wizard spells to its list). Yes, if the only thing you do is spam Shocking Grasp then you're going to be a glass cannon; that's the most well-known Magus build but hardly the only one. There's the hexcrafter archetype for added endurance.
Here, have a guide.

Finally for the lobster, Pathfinder does not in fact have "a lot of effects that bypass saves / AC". But if you want, there's a barbarian/skald build that gets huge amounts of damage resistance.

[Mithril Leaf]

Alright, lets have a look

the potions are still fundamentally a class feature usable x times per day. You can't stockpile a months worth of crafting to drop on someone, you don't get a boost to power whenever you score some extra loot and you don't suffer any inconvenience if you find yourself running short on money. It doesn't FEEL like crafting. Because it isn't.

No, you misunderstand, I want to shoot people with wands. Lots of wands. Like 3 wands. on each hand. and I want that to be effective. So effective that enemies flee in terror not because of a mechanical fear effect but because they know what is coming and don't want to face it.

I feel like this is fundamentally you just exploiting the fact the artificer is a tier 0 class, and then being sad you don't have an equally OP option in Pathfinder. This is fine, because a fundamentally unbalanced game is inherently able to be more satisfying, but from a design perspective you shouldn't be able to use 6 wands or 50 potions a round.

Back on topic, I prefer Pathfinder because it has actual third party support and the writers for Third Party content are able to make all sorts of weird and fun things without the restricted first party rules. I think Paizo gets caught up in their standardized Vancian casters and refuse to rock the boat, but the fact that Dreamscarred Press, Drop Dead Studios, Radiance House, and the like produce high quality and unique mechanics is wonderful. Plus I've already seen the vast majority of 3.5 content, whereas PF is getting new stuff.

[rel]

Off topic is right. I will quickly address these last points but after this I'm going to stop responding to specific queries about my examples.

Regarding the alchemist, are you basically looking for the Brew Potion and Craft Wondrous Item feats? The alchemist class does get crafting bonuses.

Simply crafting potions or alchemicals is not enough. You have to be able to use them as effective weapons.

In pathfinder I have seen no way to do this. In 3.5 any source of bonus damage (sneak attack, skirmish, etc) allows you to make quite a respectable build.

You can also make special throwable potions in 3.5 via the Alchemist Savant PRC.

So you have a lot of cool options if you are trying to make a throws potions at people character.

For the wand wielder, the wizard discovery Staff-Like Wand seems to be what you're looking for. It won't let you hextuple-wield wands and shoot them simultaneously, but AFAIK you can't do that in 3E either.

Actually, there is a LOT of wand support in 3.5. Artificer, the Cannith Wand Adept PRC, numerous feats potential bonus damage from the extra damage source of your choice.

You can try and wield a wand as a weapon in pathfinder but from what I've seen the support and damage isn't there.

For the survivor, you should look at the Magus's spell list again if you think it lacks utility, escape, or defense; because it has plenty of that (and in addition, it can easily add wizard spells to its list). Yes, if the only thing you do is spam Shocking Grasp then you're going to be a glass cannon; that's the most well-known Magus build but hardly the only one. There's the hexcrafter archetype for added endurance.
Here, have a guide.

Finally for the lobster, Pathfinder does not in fact have "a lot of effects that bypass saves / AC". But if you want, there's a barbarian/skald build that gets huge amounts of damage resistance.

I've looked, I'm not convinced. The whole pathfinder design philosophy seems to be geared towards expendable resources. Pretty much everything is usable x times per day or some variation thereof.

Characters built around the idea of less overt but passive everpresent power are not catered to.

I feel like this is fundamentally you just exploiting the fact the artificer is a tier 0 class and then being sad you don't have an equally OP option in Pathfinder.

The artificer is not a tier zero class. That designation is reserved for things like cancer mage and spell to power erudite. The artificer is a tier 1 class roughly equivalent in power to the full casters.

However most of these builds (remember these are actual builds I made for actual games) are well below tier 1.

the potion thrower was in fact
rogue 1 > spellcaster (the generic class) 4 > unseen seer 2 > alchemist savant 5 unseen seer 8

Not only is there no Artificer but there is no tier 1. This build would struggle to hit tier 2 and would probably sit in the middle of tier 3 in actual play.


Back to the larger discussion, I have a question: what makes pathfinder 3rd party content better than the 3.5 3rd party content over in the homebrew forum and in other places accross the net?

[Kurald Galain]

Simply crafting potions or alchemicals is not enough. You have to be able to use them as effective weapons.

Alchemist gets a sizeable damage bonus with alchemical items. Also, underground chemist rogue can sneak attack with them.

You can try and wield a wand as a weapon in pathfinder but from what I've seen the support and damage isn't there.

I literally just pointed that out to you. Staff-Like Wand, a wizard discovery.

I've looked, I'm not convinced. The whole pathfinder design philosophy seems to be geared towards expendable resources. Pretty much everything is usable x times per day or some variation thereof.

Dude, seriously. Check out the Witch and the hexcrafter Magus, their entire point is having at-will powers. If you're saying that some option doesn't exist, you should at least LOOK if people tell you that it does.

Not only is there no Artificer but there is no tier 1. This build would struggle to hit tier 2

There we go. Your argument is not so much that options don't exist in PF (because as we've just shown, they do) but that they're overpowered in 3.5 and not in PF. You write "struggling to hit tier 2" as if that makes your character weak, when in fact it makes it stronger than 95% of the builds in the game. That an overpowered trick doesn't work any more is a feature, not a bug; most players want less tier 1 shenanigans, not more.

what makes pathfinder 3rd party content better than the 3.5 3rd party content over in the homebrew forum and in other places accross the net?

That it's in active development, and that GMs tend to allow third-party books more easily than forum homebrew.

[Psyren]

However most of these builds (remember these are actual builds I made for actual games) are well below tier 1.

The fact that you had an "actual game" where things like hextuple wielding wands and detonating 50+ alchemical items at once was okay, doesn't mean it should be an officially sanctioned system baseline. If you have the kind of playgroup that enjoys wacky stuff like that, that's what rule zero is for, go nuts and have fun.

Back to the larger discussion, I have a question: what makes pathfinder 3rd party content better than the 3.5 3rd party content over in the homebrew forum and in other places accross the net?

The developers of said content of course, like DSP and Radiance House. Not merely the quality of the content itself (though that is certainly a major factor) but that they identified a desirable niche to service and put in the legwork to actually get it playtested and published to a wide audience - rather than sticking it in some corner thread nobody will read or pouring it into a sewer like DanDwiki. If you want your homebrew to see wide adoption, you need all the above elements, not merely good design.

Where Pathfinder has the advantage is that, being still in print, it has more people actively buying books - and so, the kinds of designers capable of getting quality work in front of paying customers will direct their effort and talents there, rather than to 3.5. And whether you or anyone else thinks it's deserved or not, PF has successfully positioned itself in the eye of the gaming public as "3.75."

[EldritchWeaver]

The whole pathfinder design philosophy seems to be geared towards expendable resources. Pretty much everything is usable x times per day or some variation thereof.

Characters built around the idea of less overt but passive everpresent power are not catered to.

...

Back to the larger discussion, I have a question: what makes pathfinder 3rd party content better than the 3.5 3rd party content over in the homebrew forum and in other places accross the net?

Regarding staying power, there are 3PP systems which move towards at-will powers. Spheres of Power has a number of at-will options and in addition you can build to reduce the spell point costs to 0 for quite a few options, which otherwise would be be limited by your spell pool size. Path of War is semi-at will. It requires you to ready maneuvers, which allows them being used once per encounter. But you can spend an action to ready the expended maneuvers once more (or at least some of them). Spheres of Might streamlines this multiple expending, multiple readying into a single martial focus, which can be expended and gained once per round. Still lots of combat talents are only enhanced by expending the martial focus and can be used in a basic version at-will. In all systems, you will still find resources limited to a number of times between two rests.

What you won't find is T1 or T0 options (or at least only available with GM permission), because the developers consider T3 as the baseline the game should support out of the box. Many people enjoy games where all can be useful and don't destroy the GM's plot by accident.

[rel]

An update:

Everyone seems so adamant that pathfinder can make the characters I'm trying to make that I've decided to give making them another go.

I'm starting by trying to build a wand based striker in this thread.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...-in-pathfinder

feel free to follow along / provide advice.

[exelsisxax]

An update:

Everyone seems so adamant that pathfinder can make the characters I'm trying to make that I've decided to give making them another go.

I'm starting by trying to build a wand based striker in this thread.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...-in-pathfinder

feel free to follow along / provide advice.

Magus with wand-wielder, you can go delete that thread now.

Seriously, this isn't hard. As others have said many times, the character archetype is EASILY replicable with PF. The only thing that PF can't do are the inanely specific builds that have exacting mechanical requirements, because PF isn't 3.5.

[Powerdork]

Magus with wand-wielder

Wand Wielder (Su): The magus can activate a wand or staff in place of casting a spell when using spell combat.

Spell Combat (Ex): At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast. ... As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty). ... A magus can choose to cast the spell first or make the weapon attacks first, but if he has more than one attack, he cannot cast the spell between weapon attacks.

Not a blaster. Doesn't live up to thread title. Full attack + wand charge = high damage? Maybe.

[exelsisxax]

Not a blaster. Doesn't live up to thread title. Full attack + wand charge = high damage? Maybe.

His request was "wand based striker".

Base magus satisfies that. For a ranged blaster, an eldritch archer magus with wand-wielder would work, though it requires casting weaponwand or a specific interpretation of wand-wielder.

[icefractal]

For the "bag of potions" character, how are you making those and not running out of money?
If it's crafting with cost reducers, a PF character can craft for no XP, 50% cost, and 50% time right out the gate, and somewhat cheaper and 4x faster with resources in it.
If it's using free-Wishes or the like - stop, go to the corner, and think about what you've done. :P Those give you unlimited power, and claiming it's ok because you only use some of it is like claiming Pun-Pun is fine because you're just giving yourself a limited set of abilities at the moment.

For that matter though, PF does have a class that gives you unlimited potions for free. The Herbalism-Focus Druid (Healer's HB, I think) can make potions for free which last forever and can even be sold. It's pretty broken and I wouldn't be surprised if it was changed, but there it is.

[Hamste]

For the "bag of potions" character, how are you making those and not running out of money?
If it's crafting with cost reducers, a PF character can craft for no XP, 50% cost, and 50% time right out the gate, and somewhat cheaper and 4x faster with resources in it.
If it's using free-Wishes or the like - stop, go to the corner, and think about what you've done. :P Those give you unlimited power, and claiming it's ok because you only use some of it is like claiming Pun-Pun is fine because you're just giving yourself a limited set of abilities at the moment.

For that matter though, PF does have a class that gives you unlimited potions for free. The Herbalism-Focus Druid (Healer's HB, I think) can make potions for free which last forever and can even be sold. It's pretty broken and I wouldn't be surprised if it was changed, but there it is.

There is also a second level extract called alchemical allocation that lets you reuse potions. It is a bit slow though as you have to drink both the extract and potion

[Powerdork]

His request was "wand based striker".

Base magus satisfies that. For a ranged blaster, an eldritch archer magus with wand-wielder would work, though it requires casting weaponwand or a specific interpretation of wand-wielder.

This characters main role is delivering damage and it has to be good at it. What's more, every attack costs money so this character should be better at damage dealing than a build that deals damage for free.
Greatsword fighter should be doing less damage just swinging away than a potential build is dealing. Since you should be spending substantial money on every shot.

If you're reading this as a vanilla striker but with a spell each turn mixed in, I don't know what to tell you.

[Gnaeus]

If you're reading this as a vanilla striker but with a spell each turn mixed in, I don't know what to tell you.

I would say that while I'm not sure how to do it with wands, I can do it quite easily with potions. The winning cheesegrinder build this year involved an Alchemist/unchained monk weretiger with a tumor familiar whose job it was to stick a potion into his third hand which would be drunk as a swift action with potion glutton feat. A thing which I'm not sure how to attempt in 3.5. It was quite literally a melee monster. Of course, swift action buffing on a melee chassis isn't super hard in PF (bloodrager, magus, and warpriest are all good at it) but if his point was using expensive resources in combat for superior damage, Bjorn Stronginthearm's your uncle.

Which again shows that while I can't exactly duplicate every 3.5 character in PF and have it operate in the same manner, I can create concepts in PF I can't easily duplicate in 3.5.