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Thread: The Orville

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    I'll admit it's second hand, but given who's making it I wouldn't doubt it. I can't remember the specifics because I'm tired from work, but some of the jokes are kinda sexist, and the outfits. Also the idea that the captain is clearly a bumbling buffoon and the lady second should be the actual captain. General stuff like that.

    I should probably watch this to be 100% sure, but I've got a rough week of work and my time is a bit more precious than that.
    So let me get this straight: You havent even watched it, but you're calling it sexist?
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    I'll admit it's second hand, but given who's making it I wouldn't doubt it. I can't remember the specifics because I'm tired from work, but some of the jokes are kinda sexist, and the outfits. Also the idea that the captain is clearly a bumbling buffoon and the lady second should be the actual captain. General stuff like that.

    I should probably watch this to be 100% sure, but I've got a rough week of work and my time is a bit more precious than that.
    Having watched it, I didn't note any sexist jokes (unless you consider the whole divorce plot thread inherently sexist for... some reason I can't fathom; it's a real stretch) and Captain Mercer really doesn't come off as a bumbling buffoon. Every one of the main characters except arguably the navigator (a man) contributed to their survival and success in a very real way, him included.
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    "He has a gun, but we have something even better. Seat belts." *Slams space brakes*
    The episode was going out of its way to have Commander Grayson (the captain's ex) save the day so that he'd have a reason not to immediately accept her transfer off the ship, but it wasn't like he grossly dropped the ball on anything. It was her idea that ultimately won the day, but they never would have gotten to that point without the whole rest of the away team and bridge crew.
    Last edited by Renegade Paladin; 2017-09-12 at 08:35 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk748 View Post
    So let me get this straight: You havent even watched it, but you're calling it sexist?
    There's a trope for that
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk748 View Post
    So let me get this straight: You havent even watched it, but you're calling it sexist?
    I've heard it's sexist, yes. I'll look up the show later to see for myself. I'm just saying it wouldn't be surprising if it is. And really that whole divorce subplot sounds pretty bad (especially given it's probably where the jokes about her being a bitch comes from, from what I've seen).

    But you're right, I shouldn't pass judgement until I've seen it for myself. I know from the trailer it looks like trash though, and my hopes aren't high. Every positive comment I've seen about it is from people starved for sci fi television that doesn't suck so anything even remotely there gets a pass.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Porthos View Post
    I think the issue some reviewers have is two-fold:

    A) It's fashionable to crap on Seth MacFarlane, so this had a bit of a tough road already.

    B) They were expecting Galaxy Quest: The Series and instead got ST:TOS with Some Jokes.

    Could be off, of course. But from what I understand it doesn't deserve the level of vitriol that was heaped on it.
    A third possibility. Usually TV critics are given multiple episodes to watch when asked to review a brand new series (the first four episodes seems to be how it is generally done). It is possible that the pilot episode is the best of the bunch and it goes down hill from there.

    I hope that is not the case, and since most of the shows that I watch don't start up again until October, I will definitely watch the next couple of episodes. I'm just saying that the TV critics have probably seen more episodes than we have, and may know stuff we don't.
    Last edited by Ranxerox; 2017-09-12 at 10:55 PM.

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    Having caught this late I've finally seen it. I think the jokes and overall humor are a bigger part than a lot of the negative reviews made it out.

    I think a big problem is that the trailer spoils a lot of the best jokes, which would have worked a lot better seeing them in episode fresh.

    That said, its definitely McFarlane humor. So the plot itself is serious enough, while a lot of random jokes happen as tangents as the story develops (family guy style).

    Still I'm not sure if this show can work without the tone deciding on being more comedic or more dramatic (and perhaps a bit of both is in order, they make a good showing that the Orville crew are middling types on a middling adventure).

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    I've heard it's sexist, yes. I'll look up the show later to see for myself. I'm just saying it wouldn't be surprising if it is....
    I don't recall costumes but there is gist for that mill: the way Malloy talks about "the bitch" of a first officer, and Grayson's entire personality is basically that of a clingy-ex-wife wrapped in more female stereotypes.

    What really stuck out for me was the self-deprecating comment by the Alara, the young head of security, that she was fast-tracked to her position because she comes from a minority group. She says flatly she's the product of affirmative action when she has superpowers and is basically the ur-example of a security officer (sorry Worf).

    The preview of the next episodes shows that the supposedly male alien lays eggs. So they aren't being very precise on the alien biology (he would be a hermaphrodite then) at least.

    I don't see sexism as being high on the complaints for the show but the way it treats its (admittedly) diverse cast suggests that they are trying to be shallow and play to or play up a lot of stereotypes. That and its a Seth McFarlane production...

    Actually that fact alone suggests that sexism should rank pretty high on the list...
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    I've heard it's sexist, yes. I'll look up the show later to see for myself. I'm just saying it wouldn't be surprising if it is. And really that whole divorce subplot sounds pretty bad (especially given it's probably where the jokes about her being a bitch comes from, from what I've seen).
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    The opening scene is literally him walking in on her cheating on their marriage. Are you saying that wasn't grounds for a divorce decree or something? The show is only one episode in, but given the setup, so far it's been handled very well in my estimation.

    What you refer to has one very specific source; the pilot (not the captain), and it is thoroughly established that he's a jerk in general and it isn't supposed to be sympathetic. So unless the premise is that all the characters must be perfect saints and if they aren't then how that fact is handled by the story doesn't matter, I don't see where the problem is.


    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    What really stuck out for me was the self-deprecating comment by the Alara, the young head of security, that she was fast-tracked to her position because she comes from a minority group. She says flatly she's the product of affirmative action when she has superpowers and is basically the ur-example of a security officer (sorry Worf).
    To be fair, there's much more to being a skilled security chief than personal prowess and super strength. We've seen that she, personally, kicks ass, and that's great. We haven't seen her direct security arrangements for the ship, be in command of anything, or do any part of her job that isn't her, personally, engaging in firefights and fisticuffs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    The preview of the next episodes shows that the supposedly male alien lays eggs. So they aren't being very precise on the alien biology (he would be a hermaphrodite then) at least.
    I mean, we knew that from the first utterance of "Your entire species is male, isn't it?"
    Last edited by Renegade Paladin; 2017-09-12 at 11:31 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    I mean, we knew that from the first utterance of "Your entire species is male, isn't it?"
    Yeah there's no real way to distinguish male and female, biologically if the species only has one sex. The fact they called out the single sex as male makes no real sense to begin with. Granted I believe they said single gender. So perhaps the species is sexually dimorphic but they all simply identify as male. Realistically that's almost certainly not the case and just a standard conflating of sex and gender though.

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    I saw episode1 and thought it was good. Not a "hunt for the missed episode on Netflix and kill myself if I don't find it" good, but a "set the PVR and watch it when I can" good. And having no experience with Seth McFarlane's work, I came in with no preconceptions or prejudices.
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    I saw it myself. It was pretty underwhelming.

    It runs entirely on "anachronistic frat humour in Star Trek" and doesn't really build up to anything funny or develop a tone that works for space drama either. I was holding it to the standards of a Red Dwarf and it falls far short of that.

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    I kind of liked it, and I'll probably keep watching it. It's a goofy take on star trek without being a parody of it... Feels a bit like Legends of Tomorrow in that it's not great but it brings enough to the table to be interesting (also, the Admiral is in Legends which is probably why that comparison came to mind). Plus I like Mcfarlane's brand of snarky humour as long as he stays a bit grounded and doesn't vanish up his rectum.

    About the ex wife thing I think it wasn't handled terribly. She cheated on him and it almost wrecked his career because he was so distraught over the whole thing, I would expect him and his best friend to be a bit defensive about the whole thing. It didn't go overboard in the first episode and as long as it doesn't that's ok with me. Also the actress is pigeonholing herself as the badass ex wife after this and SHIELD and I think that's funny. Personally I hope it's going in a ''we're better as colleagues and friends'' thing rather than a ''we should go back together'' thing, time will tell.

    And finally about the security chief I understand why the captain would be skeptical. She might be essentially a superhero but that doesn't make her a good officer... I guess that comes down to the tradition of only senior officers being important in Star Trek so she couldn't be say the security number 2 and go on missions because she kicks ass.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chen View Post
    Yeah there's no real way to distinguish male and female, biologically if the species only has one sex. The fact they called out the single sex as male makes no real sense to begin with. Granted I believe they said single gender. So perhaps the species is sexually dimorphic but they all simply identify as male. Realistically that's almost certainly not the case and just a standard conflating of sex and gender though.
    You could have a dual-gendered species that is usually male, but individual members sometimes become female during mating season in order to lay eggs. As a result, the species considers themselves 'male', while being 'female' is a temporary thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk748 View Post
    So let me get this straight: You havent even watched it, but you're calling it....

    WORST EPISODE EVER!!!
    (I may say if I ever watch it)



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    Quote Originally Posted by Chen View Post
    Yeah there's no real way to distinguish male and female, biologically if the species only has one sex. The fact they called out the single sex as male makes no real sense to begin with. Granted I believe they said single gender. So perhaps the species is sexually dimorphic but they all simply identify as male. Realistically that's almost certainly not the case and just a standard conflating of sex and gender though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Friv View Post
    You could have a dual-gendered species that is usually male, but individual members sometimes become female during mating season in order to lay eggs. As a result, the species considers themselves 'male', while being 'female' is a temporary thing.
    This being science fiction there are other possibilities. For example, they could be a species that use to have females but has somehow lost them and now gets by through cloning or some other technological means. Another possibility is they exist in a symbiotic (or parasitic) relationship with another species that bears their young for them, but doesn't incorporate their genetic material and remains a separate species. So they would have females, just not ones of there own species.
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    I'm not a sci-fi fan. Not into Star Trek or any similar shows or movies. So I won't get the references or allusions or anything. I AM a McFarlane fan, but this is also the first time I've seen him in live-action stuff (haven't seen any of his movies).

    Overall, it was ok. It felt like Star Trek that untucked its shirt, and wasn't afraid to laugh at itself. But, I mean, it's one episode. You can't establish much in that amount of time even with a 45 minute show. So it's worth a little bit more watch, if only to see the characters more fleshed out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendulous View Post
    I'm not a sci-fi fan. Not into Star Trek or any similar shows or movies. So I won't get the references or allusions or anything. I AM a McFarlane fan, but this is also the first time I've seen him in live-action stuff (haven't seen any of his movies).

    Overall, it was ok. It felt like Star Trek that untucked its shirt, and wasn't afraid to laugh at itself. But, I mean, it's one episode. You can't establish much in that amount of time even with a 45 minute show. So it's worth a little bit more watch, if only to see the characters more fleshed out.
    The first episode didn't have a lot of references or allusions, except visually with the resemblance of Planetary Union ships to those of the Federation of Star Trek. This really isn't being played as a satire on Star Trek, at least not so far.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chen View Post
    Yeah there's no real way to distinguish male and female, biologically if the species only has one sex. The fact they called out the single sex as male makes no real sense to begin with. Granted I believe they said single gender. So perhaps the species is sexually dimorphic but they all simply identify as male. Realistically that's almost certainly not the case and just a standard conflating of sex and gender though.
    You know if true the moclan are a species that is sexually dimorphic but pick a gender to identify by says volumes about gender-identity and sex.

    Of course...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranxerox View Post
    This being science fiction there are other possibilities. For example, they could be a species that use to have females but has somehow lost them and now gets by through cloning or...they exist in a symbiotic (or parasitic) relationship with another species that bears their young for them
    So in the end I find the "your species is all male" comment to be more confusing than anything else (and the awkward dialogue that follows a play for cheap laughs).

    So there's plenty in the Orville that is irrevant and shallow on sex, and race too but it really doesn't seem like a standout example of bigotry, especially for Seth McFarlane.

    What's really disappointing is there is so much potential to really have fun with what you can do with these concepts in science fiction. So far all we get are cheap laughs.
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    Maybe they're just seahorses in space ?

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    Finally got a chance to catch this show and I think I'd have to say its decidedly "okay" The parts of it which feel like a send up to Trek, and there is a lot of Trek like heart in it, are wonderful. Not groundbreaking or revolutionary - but exactly what I've been hungry for. Those parts are constantly being undercut by cheap one liners or annoying attempts at punchlines.

    I had one solid laugh while watching the show
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    When the XO joined in talking with the Krill about marriage trouble and the Captain got frustrated. It was pretty clear that she was using the chance to play for time rather than make an actual point - mostly because she'd been professional the whole time and he'd, well, not. The matter of fact way the Krill sided with her was a good follow up.


    In response to the ex-wife thing being sexist... I'm not sure I understand the logic behind that. The two characters who disparage her have reasons for doing so that are easy to understand and even sympathize with but are also so completely immature that it is impossible for me to take them seriously. The ex-wife herself however is shown to be competent, responsible, and all together a good person. The closest to arguing that the show was sexist I could possibly get is that I can't think of any good reason why she wasn't a captain - but then the end of the episode answered that question.

    Its okay. I feel like the actors are doing fine but the directors and writers can't seem to agree on what type of show they are writing. The scenes written for comedy seem to be directed too dramatically and the scenes written for drama seem to be directed too comedically. Most of the comedy just fails. The one part that worked arose organically from the situation they were in - pretty much all of the other jokes seemed just forced into the scenes.

    I'll catch a few more episodes but this isn't on my "must watch" list.

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    Saw it and was pleasantly surprised to find out it wasn't just Family Guy/American Dad in SPAAACE. It wasn't amazing television and didn't really pack any good lines or spectacular scenes. Biggest issue, I think is that the show really wants to be 45 minutes rather than an hour. There's too much to really pack into thirty minutes, but at the same time there were several scenes, such as when the two navigators met, where things just sort of dragged out a little too long. I think McFarlane has gotten so used to writing for a half hour skit comedy that getting an actual plot to flow is a rusty skill for him. Still, there's some promise there so I'll probably watch the next couple episodes, see if it sorts out from the usual first episode jitters or if gets stuck in mediocrity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    I've heard it's sexist, yes. I'll look up the show later to see for myself. I'm just saying it wouldn't be surprising if it is. And really that whole divorce subplot sounds pretty bad (especially given it's probably where the jokes about her being a bitch comes from, from what I've seen).
    Seems like a pretty harsh opinion to have for someone who hasn't watched the show yet
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    Seems like a pretty harsh opinion to have for someone who hasn't watched the show yet
    The opinion pretty much boiled down to "I'm not judging the show before watching it, but it wouldn't be surprising if it resembled the rest of the works by the same creator". That's not particularly harsh; if anything it's pretty standard. People's styles tend to show through in a lot of their works, and that includes the bad parts.

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    Second episode was...okay. Some dumb bits or ones that went on too long. Some bits I actually thought were funny. The comedy bits give the characters some room to just be without serving the plot.

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    And as soon as they woke up in their apartment I thought,
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    The only bit I found dumb was right at the beginning, and the reason for it became abundantly clear shortly thereafter.
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    Default Re: The Orville

    Really, I find that Star Trek Discovery has a lot of work if they want to outdo Orville.

    It has good set/ship design.

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    I haven't gotten into the second episode yet, but I was pleasantly surprised by the first. I'm not really a fan of Seth Macfarlane, but it gave me a few chuckles (I laughed way harder than I should have at the navigator's only concern being his 'soda on the bridge' policy) and the designs were pretty neat. If nothing else, some of the background characters give me hope that future sci-fi series may end up dropping the 'human but with....like a mole or something' style of alien design altogether one day.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    Seems like a pretty harsh opinion to have for someone who hasn't watched the show yet
    You've...you've been on the internet before, right? That's pretty much 70% of reviews.

    "I hate it so much that I'm never going to watch it!!!!!11!!!"

    That being said, I'm not a MacFarlane fan, but I am a lifelong sci-fi fan. I find the show amusing, and hope it finds its feet. People don't realize how hard it is to get a show green-lit at a studio and get things going. The first entire seasons of shows like Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Supernatural, Parks and Recreation were awful, but since they were given time to mature, they were great(ish) shows.

    Judging a series off one one to two episodes is asinine, but again...it's the internet. Don't listen to other people's opinions. Judge for yourself, and don't feel bad if you like something nobody else does.
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    Having seen the first two episodes, my reaction to The Orville is mostly puzzlement. It seems to be Star Trek as lowbrow comedy, played straight, which is kind of bizarre overall. Episode two, in particular, has a story arc that is functionally identical to one that could have (and frankly probably did, by memory of the Trek canon is a little fuzzy) appeared in any mainstream Trek series. There are jokes, and the characters function much more sitcom-style than those in a traditional science fiction drama - which results in them acting both more and less like real people - but there's clearly going to be actual missions and stuff.

    It's not bad, just kind of puzzling, and I do hope that the shows finds a groove to meld its influences, since there does seem to be the seed of something there.
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  29. - Top - End - #89
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    Reddish Mage's Avatar

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    Default Re: The Orville

    So episode three happened. Its oddly to me they are moving in the direction of more straight (no pun intended, no relation to the subject matter of the episode) rather than more humor.

    The humor that appears here seemed less appealing then before
    Spoiler: Episode 3 - jokes that don't deserve to be in spoiler text
    Show
    The blob showing what's supposed to be a **** to the doctor seemed in poor taste.

    Still things like the comment about how free the Moclans are with "handing out *****," seems like they got slipped-in rather than getting the proper set up and delivery.


    Also, I found the TNG episode about the genderless race very memorable. This tries to be a low brow take on the subject, but all it feels is a bit off.

    Also, shouldn't there be a subplot or two going on to get tied in?
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

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  30. - Top - End - #90
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Renegade Paladin's Avatar

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    Default Re: The Orville

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    So episode three happened. Its oddly to me they are moving in the direction of more straight (no pun intended, no relation to the subject matter of the episode) rather than more humor.

    The humor that appears here seemed less appealing then before
    Spoiler: Episode 3 - jokes that don't deserve to be in spoiler text
    Show
    The blob showing what's supposed to be a **** to the doctor seemed in poor taste.

    Still things like the comment about how free the Moclans are with "handing out *****," seems like they got slipped-in rather than getting the proper set up and delivery.
    Think about it. Considering the subject matter, would you want Seth MacFarlane's typical humor applied to the main plot of the episode? They went absolutely the right direction for this one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Also, I found the TNG episode about the genderless race very memorable. This tries to be a low brow take on the subject, but all it feels is a bit off.

    Also, shouldn't there be a subplot or two going on to get tied in?
    Well, there's the obvious subplot of Captain Mercer and Commander Grayson reconciling despite their best efforts to blow up what's left of their relationship, though that's conveyed more in body language than dialogue in this episode. Apart from that, again, consider the sensitivity of the subject. There's time for subplots on an episode with a less thorny story thread.
    "Courage is the complement of fear. A fearless man cannot be courageous. He is also a fool." -- Robert Heinlein


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