OOTS #1097 - The Discussion Thread

[The_Fire]

Aww man, it's a conspiracy among the gods. Odin either wants to destroy the world now or he never liked this world for one reason or another anyway. He sent Durkon out so that he could destroy the world but to make it so that his supporters stayed his supporters he had to vote against destroying the world. He may have been conspiring with Hel and he still may be (although this is unlikely seeing as Hel made a whole speech against him during the godsmoot) Also the whole point of Hel trying to get a cleric to the godsmoot was so that she could be the most powerful also makes it less likely that she is conspiring with Odin. Either way, I'm pretty sure there is going to be a point where they can't save the world anymore because Odin has decided, "Screw it I'm gonna destroy the world"- and obviously the OOTS can't fight a god (until Banjo ascends to the Northern? pantheon)

[skaddix]

That doesn't make sense the HP of Odin voted against destroying the world.

Odin could have simply voted yes.

[The_Fire]

That doesn't make sense the HP of Odin voted against destroying the world.

Odin could have simply voted yes.

Like I said, although he could have voted yes to destroying the world, his supporters among the gods, (whoever they may be) would probably look down on him for voting yes and he would lose them as well as still being enemies with most of the other gods. (frost/fire giants are not very forgiving)

[Lúthien Tinúvie]

...I feel like a number of people are getting Odin (Somewhat mysterious deity that has barely even been referenced in the comic) confused with Thor. (Who is, in fact, the drunken buffoon that keeps getting referenced.)

You're 100% correct, and I feel stupid for making that mistake.

However, comic Odin (made my research now) is seemingly portrayed as a childish or senile character in strip 137 and strip 435. Crayon Odin did help create the world (twice), but other than that, we have little evidence of him being powerful or intelligent. Therefore, it is still surprising to see that Odin could play a major ambiguous role in this story.

[Goblin_Priest]

Maybe Odin knew what would happen, and wanted it to happen, yes... but maybe he also knows what comes next, and maybe it's not that bleak? Presumably, Hel's plan will be foiled. Maybe this whole arc will be somewhat responsible to avoiding a greater evil (Xykon/Redcloak?) later on.

[Kish]

A hundred gold says the world will not be destroyed.

[ManuelSacha]

A huge THANK YOU to miss Haley Starshine for pointing the elephant in the room.

[Crusher]

Whoa. Giant never ceases to impress with the plot twists.

[halfeye]

Does Belkar say "a criteria" because he likes using big words even when he doesn't know what they mean?

[ti'esar]

Verrry interesting. I genuinely had not considered any of this before, but yeah, something's definitely up.

(It's a scary feeling when Belkar is more perceptive than you are).

[Basement Cat]

Yeah, I got suspicious last issue about Odin's motives. His statement at the Godsmoot about "Worlds within worlds" came to mind.

Suspicious, indeed. Especially if this all turns out to be a classic "The Asgardians don't know what to do so let's put Loki to work and get him to fix things for us" scenario. That would suggest that Loki's motivation for bringing the wager up between Hel and a visibly intoxicated and unknowing Thor was focused on preventing a second round of "Snarl kills gods and destroys the world" event.

TL/DR: Odin put Loki up to making the bet between Thor and Hel.

[KorvinStarmast]

I note that Belkar is the only one on screen who has the wit to enjoy a beer during this discussion.

Beyond that, interesting set of discussions of the motives of Norse Gods. Good luck with figuring that out, puny mortals.

[Zyzzyva]

I love the reference to Slepnir! Mpreg is not at all a modern invention. (It's in the Mabinogian as well.) I can't place the she-wolf reference though- I believe Fenric was male? Is Elan being Wrong Genre-Savvy?

Our best guess is that it's a Romulus and Remus prophesy reference, nothing to do with the Norse at all.

I wonder what Beer Dude actually told Durkon's mother and family all these years?

My feeling is just something like "<.< >.> <.< Uh.... I dunno anything about that."

[dtilque]

Does Belkar say "a criteria" because he likes using big words even when he doesn't know what they mean?

He uses the word correctly, at least semantically. Now V would say "a criterion", because he's the pedantic nerd type who knows his Greek singular/plural endings, but otherwise there's no problem with Belkar's usage.

I note that Belkar is the only one on screen who has the wit to enjoy a beer during this discussion.

Hey, the others are driving the plot....

[Basement Cat]

Funny realization: Blackwing might be the only one capable of telling Belkar "That's enough!" and making it stick.

Belkar's growing empathy extends most strongly of all to animals so it would make sense to see him rein back after Blackwing calls him out.

On a side note: Why isn't there a Blackwing smilie avalaible?

[danielxcutter]

I'm just going to watch and see how this unfolds.

[2D8HP]

I just read the comic, and I haven't read many of this threads comments, because I'm just too eager to crow:

Hurak may have reasoned that if "Home is where the heart is", Durkon just meeting his family and friends may have triggered the prophecy.

I blame

The Norns,

Huginn and Muninn,

Odin

and,

Hurak

In that order.

Vindicated!

Ha!

Imaginary people who disagreed with me are DOOMSEALED!

Crow! Crow! Crow, I go!

[Svata]

Pretty nice of the crows to hire ravens. Unkindness Inc. really failed in the marketing....

Eh. They're cousins. You've gotta expect a little nepotism here and there. To do otherwise would be a true unkindness.

[Manty5]

Did anyone notice that Belkar is drinking while driving the plot?

That Belkar - As inebriated as he is stone-cold sexy.

EDIT: Aaaand that's what I get for assuming that there wasn't a comment like that in the few hours I've been away.

[Boring McReader]

You're 100% correct, and I feel stupid for making that mistake.

However, comic Odin (made my research now) is seemingly portrayed as a childish or senile character in strip 137 and strip 435. Crayon Odin did help create the world (twice), but other than that, we have little evidence of him being powerful or intelligent. Therefore, it is still surprising to see that Odin could play a major ambiguous role in this story.

Smart characters can play dumb for a strategic advantage. It happens in the real world too, though not usually to the degree it happens in fiction. There's even precedent for it in OOTS. Remember Lord Shojo?

There's a version of Odin by a well-known fantasy author that portrays him as relatively bright and competent but conceals the extent of his ruthless intelligence for much of the story. I won't name the work for spoilers' sake. If you know it, you'll recognize what I'm talking about. Odin's a crafty old man in mythology. He could be pulling a lot of strings in OOTS.

[Boring McReader]

Yeah, I got suspicious last issue about Odin's motives. His statement at the Godsmoot about "Worlds within worlds" came to mind.

Suspicious, indeed. Especially if this all turns out to be a classic "The Asgardians don't know what to do so let's put Loki to work and get him to fix things for us" scenario. That would suggest that Loki's motivation for bringing the wager up between Hel and a visibly intoxicated and unknowing Thor was focused on preventing a second round of "Snarl kills gods and destroys the world" event.

TL/DR: Odin put Loki up to making the bet between Thor and Hel.

I talked about Odin using the OOTS to save the world, but really it could play out many different ways to satisfy a hidden godly motive. Redcloak has an overt and a hidden goal that both involve securing the gate with Xykon. Odin doesn't necessarily want the world to be saved for the good of humanity. He could have his own endgame that dooms the world in a different way and happens to require the OOTS getting into position to save it first. The one safe bet, although there are never totally safe bets in OOTS, is that Odin's plan doesn't end with the vampire fulfilling Hel's ambition and ending the world on her terms. There's more going on.

[Katrover_Swatroad]

This is just amazing. I love Belkar doing his thing!

More subtle character development at work on Belkar.

[Nazzo, the 102nd]

My feeling is just something like "<.< >.> <.< Uh.... I dunno anything about that."

I think the correct sentence would be "Och, I dinnae know nuthin' aboot that."

[Svata]

There's also the fact that liking dogs and puppets doesn't make you stupid, and Thor's reaction to the dog one could be easily attributed to him being annoyed at Tiger. And Thor didn't seem to mind the idea of Banjo joining the Northern Pantheon either.

[Lord Raziere]

How about, all of them? They would never have reached Dorukan's Dungeon in the first place without Durkon convincing Roy to let them try again after their first disastrous fight (see: OtOoPCs). Without his healing they wouldn't have made it through the dungeon. Without a cleric to cast Disruption on Roy's sword, Xykon would have had no reason to Shatter it and Roy wouldn't have hulked out and accidentally hit upon the only method to stop the lich--the entire Order would have died in the dungeon. Even if they escaped that, without Durkon's words of wisdom Miko would probably have slaughtered them all when she caught up with them. Without Durkon's slightly dodgy use of Control Weather the Order would have been defeated by the treants in Cliffport. I could go on, and I'm sure I may have missed situations in between the ones I've already listed, but he's actually been pretty important to the Order.

Exactly. If Durkon hadn't been around, its very possible that Redcloak or Xykon might've captured Elan and used him on the gates rune after killing everyone else. or even Nale bringing Elan to Xykon. Redcloak would've then transported it to The Dark One, who would then use it to threaten the gods into getting what he wanted. The earliest possible failure scenario.

Now let us think, Odin is a good god, what did he see in this situation that would be a worse alternative to the current situation the world is having right now? What would be so bad about The Dark One having that much power? Keep in mind, despite Redcloaks supposedly good intentions, he and his god are still Lawful Evil. It could be used to give the goblins equality.....or the Dark One could be the Lawful Evil jerk that he is, and use the bargain to give the goblins supremacy. There is no guarantee that the Dark One will let go of that power once he has it and he could very easily abuse it to basically become the god above all gods or something. Whoever said Redcloak has his gods intentions right? Given what we've seen of the other gods, and how Hel is abusing the system to try and gain more worshippers, why wouldn't The Dark One abuse his ultimatum to make sure the goblins out populate everyone else and thus give the Dark One more power than anyone? In that scenario it would be only a matter of time before The Dark One became unstoppable, and the best thing people could hope for would be the goblins themselves becoming less evil through cultural diffusion and changing him to be a less evil figure over time, or for the goblins to somehow stop worshiping him.

the current scenario is favorable compared to the alternative, as its perfectly possible if difficult to both cure Durkon of his vampirism and stop the vote from destroying the world and thus foil Hel, while in the other scenario the Dark One just plain wins unless someone starts pulling some serious shenanigans.

[Thecommander236]

Like I said, although he could have voted yes to destroying the world, his supporters among the gods, (whoever they may be) would probably look down on him for voting yes and he would lose them as well as still being enemies with most of the other gods. (frost/fire giants are not very forgiving)

The gods were split down the middle to destroy or save the world. One god specifically voted to save the world because Odin voted to save it. He wouldn't lose power no matter which way he voted. Plus, if he had voted to destroy the word, he would be in a slight majority instead of a dead even tie.

On top of that, if Hel is right, then Odin will lose his power as she is inundated with millions of dwarf Souls and she becomes powerful enough to take his place. No, be doesn't want the world to be destroyed, but there has to be something more than "Durkon was the only possible cleric that could've held the OotS together". There's a larger game here and we STILL don't know why Loki helped a drunk Thor swindle a naive Hel.

[Jasdoif]

Now let us think, Odin is a good god, what did he see in this situation that would be a worse alternative to the current situation the world is having right now? What would be so bad about The Dark One having that much power? Keep in mind, despite Redcloaks supposedly good intentions, he and his god are still Lawful Evil. It could be used to give the goblins equality.....or the Dark One could be the Lawful Evil jerk that he is, and use the bargain to give the goblins supremacy.

Or perhaps the bargain angle is (or has become) a ruse, and the Dark One intends to simply dump the Snarl on the gods as revenge.

[danielxcutter]

Or perhaps the bargain angle is (or has become) a ruse, and the Dark One intends to simply dump the Snarl on the gods as revenge.

I... didn't think of that.

[renovator]

Spolier

Odin goes in disguise often as a One eyed character. We have at least two One eyed characters. One of whom was friendly with MitD.

[M.A.D]

I think it's quite obvious why Odin made that prophecy, it's so that Durkon would be sent off. Sure, that chain of events eventually sets him back to the Dwarven Land with death and destruction, but in the bigger picture, Durkon had been the moral pillar of Order of the Stick, fighting to save the world from a lich who's on his way to unleash a god-killing planet-destroying reality-unmaking creature. Without Durkon in the team, I think they probably would have failed to beat Xykon even from the Redmountain Hill quest, which is that much worse.

So from a grander perspective, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy that wouldn't have come to pass if never told, but it being carried out is necessary for saving the world. In other words, for the world to be saved by the OoTS, the Dwarven Homeland must suffer death and destruction. Lesser of two evils, so to speak.