SEMIFINALS!! Favorite Character Tourney: #3 O-CHUL vs #2 REDCLOAK

[Peelee]

It's weird that Redcloak is more human than O-Chul is. O-Chul is an awesome character, but Redcloak was right, being a Paladin is a little unnatural.

D&D world. A lot of things that are "unnatural" in our world are natural (or supernatural) in theirs.

[DemonRoach]

Redcloak

10 cha

[Sylian]

It's weird that Redcloak is more human than O-Chul is. O-Chul is an awesome character, but Redcloak was right, being a Paladin is a little unnatural.

I think How the Paladin Got His Scar made him a bit more human, but he still doesn't have many/any major flaws as far as I can see. Perhaps he's a bit easily irritated, but that's not really major. I wouldn't call him "unnatural" though. Roy would act similarly in many cases, after all.

[137beth]

I'm really torn here... I like them both a lot. I think I like Redcloak a slight bit more, but I feel like O-chul has the better chance of defeating V in the finals, and I really hate V... Ugh...can't decide.

Since I’m curious today, why do you hate V so much?

[nbLurkerAbove]

I just found these threads, can I still vote? O'Chul!

[Svata]

Redcloak, perhaps because I have not read "How the Paladin got his Scar" but he's just a deeper, more complex character. Not that O-Chul isn't awesome.

[Liquor Box]

Comparing these two in the original thread is interesting. O-Chul is the much more polarising character. He is nine people's favourite, and Redcloak is only six people's favourite. Despite this, Redcloak got more votes than O-Chul in that thread, presumably because more people dsregarded O-Chul entirely and gave Redcloak a vote some votes (just less than ten).

Similar dynamic with Belkar vs Roy (although I suspect that Belkar is actively disliked by some, wheras O-Chul just attracts apathy).

I am interested to see whether the polarising character prevails or everyone's second favourite.

[Synesthesy]

I wanted also to say a thing about O-Chul and the Monster friendship: it is a good point in the plot, but I think that it is more about the Monster (about who we didn't know almost anything at time) then O-Chul. When O-Chul and the Monster met, it was the Monster who grew. This would be a good reason to vote for MitD, not for O-Chul.

I say this because I'm a little surprise: while I too see O-Chul as a good (Lawful Badass instead of lawful stupid!) character, I didn't understand it was so liked...

[Potatomade]

Well, yeah, it's definitely more about the Monster. MitD is by far a bigger character than O-Chul in the grand scheme of things, even if he's just mostly been comic relief for Team Evil. That doesn't have much bearing on popularity, though.

Think about Star Wars (the OG trilogy): how many people like Yoda or Ben Kenobi vs Luke? There are some times where the wise old mentor is more interesting than the pupil, even if the training is more about the pupil than it is the mentor.

[alwaysbebatman]

Man, two Star Wars references and the thread is not yet derailed. Wow!

To any who are still wondering "can I still vote in this?" the answer is YES!

There are two polls closing today, but not this one. There's still 4 days left!

[StreamOfTheSky]

Since I’m curious today, why do you hate V so much?

I'm still trying to figure out why this board likes V so much.

As I explained in the Belkar vs. Roy thread when someone asked why I like Belkar despite being evil but hate V for it...

The difference is Belkar owns up to what he is at least, while V likes to have her genocide and audience sympathy, too.
Also, Belkar's evil is pretty small-scale. Most of his kills (in comic, maybe not in backstory but I wouldn't know) are against enemies during fights, he just enjoys himself too much, or a non-combatant who has angered him in some way. In a few cases, because they have something he wants.
Compare to V, who will wipe out entire species because one member came after hir family, or who has no qualms inflicting horrific painful deaths on enemies who V has nothing against, just because.

But mostly it's the trying to have it both ways. That's genuinely infuriating.

[alwaysbebatman]

Sure, let's have this debate in every thread!

That's funny, I do see it the exact opposite way.

Belkar actually IS trying to trick people into thinking he's had character growth while avoiding real change. (Not very successfully: the way that "faking" growth has led to actual growth completely against Belkar's intent is one of the most interesting things about him.) But by "people," I mean other characters, not the audience.

Vaarsuvius is not Deadpool (or Animal Man) and does not know you are there, and is not having moments of clarity when alone with their familiar for the benefit of tricking you.

Now, you may mean instead that you don't find the elf's self-recrimination and despair sufficient to their crime. But the thing about that is: neither does Vaarsuvius!

[Mandor]

Well, the good news is I'll be happy no matter which one wins. They're both pretty darn badass.
But I gotta give the nod to Redcloak.

His savage takedown of Tsukiko and reading her the riot act and then covering it up with pure bluster, was just a Crowning Moment of Awesome.
Plus, he knows his Periodic Table of Elements.

[Liquor Box]

Belkar is trying to trick people in-comic into thinking he is good, which is realistic, interesting and consistent with the story.

V is also withholding his evilness from people (unless you count his familiar as a persoN), which is also realistic.

Where the difference lies though, is that V appears to be presented to the reader as a fundamentally good character, whereas Belkar is still largely presented as evil (with some signs of redemption). So I agree with Ben137, that it irks me that V presented to the reader as not-clearly evil despite his conscious and intentional evil actions causing much more harm than Belkar ever did (genicide). The portrayal of Belkar appears to me to be more honest (honest to us the audience, not to other people in universe.

[alwaysbebatman]

Belkar is trying to trick people in-comic into thinking he is good, which is realistic, interesting and consistent with the story.

V is also withholding his evilness from people (unless you count his familiar as a persoN), which is also realistic.

Where the difference lies though, is that V appears to be presented to the reader as a fundamentally good character, whereas Belkar is still largely presented as evil (with some signs of redemption). So I agree with Ben137, that it irks me that V presented to the reader as not-clearly evil despite his conscious and intentional evil actions causing much more harm than Belkar ever did (genicide). The portrayal of Belkar appears to me to be more honest (honest to us the audience, not to other people in universe.

So, it's Mr. Burlew's honesty-- not Vaarsuvius's-- that's the issue, then?

[Zaclock]

Mr. Stiffy. His relationship with the Monster is the best thing this comic has to offer. (Except, maybe, V. I guess I will have to determine that in the next week if both win.)

[Liquor Box]

So, it's Mr. Burlew's honesty-- not Vaarsuvius's-- that's the issue, then?

No, that's not what I said at all.

His presentation of V as a sympathetic, fundamentally good character jars with V's actions in comic. With Belkar there is no such inconsistency - what you see is what you get.

[alwaysbebatman]

No, that's not what I said at all.

His presentation of V as a sympathetic, fundamentally good character jars with V's actions in comic. With Belkar there is no such inconsistency - what you see is what you get.

I don't see a distinction. That sounds like "the author is presenting this character in a dishonest way" to me.

Also, Belkar is being presented in a more and more sympathetic light himself. (Which I wasn't buying at first, either. But with the latest strip, I'm 100% on board.)

[Nheko]

O-CHUL! 'Nuff said.

[Ornithologist]

I really like both for a variety of reasons. Can I vote Red-Chul? No?


okay, for realsies: O-Chul

While they both do things because they are right (in their eyes) regardless of if they are easy, I feel in an alternate reality that they could have even been friends, if Redcloak had seen O-Chul get his scar.

Regardless, this is a pretty tough one for me.

Edit: Now that I think about it some, I think there is a even (50/50) possibility that O-Chul won't survive the story. I can see many possibilities, on his fate. I can only see one ending for Redcloak. which makes him more tragic than not.

I guess I prefer characters with more still to have happen...

[elros]

This is tough. I like both characters, and I would be ecstatic if either won it all.
I read "Start of Darkness" but I didn't read O-Chul's kickstarter story, so I know more about Redcloak than O-Chul. So it is not a fair fight. The odds are stacked against O-Chul, which is just the way he likes it!!
O-Chul for the win!!!

[Potatomade]

I will be so, so happy if this winds up being O-Chul v. Belkar in the finals. So happy, you guys.

[alwaysbebatman]

That would be pretty cool.

What combination of "love those two," "think their opponents over rated," and "that would just be so dramatic and surprising!" motivates that happiness for you?

[Potatomade]

That would be pretty cool.

What combination of "love those two," "think their opponents over rated," and "that would just be so dramatic and surprising!" motivates that happiness for you?

Lots of 1, none of 2, and lots of 3. I couldn't think of two characters farther apart in alignment and temperament. They are quite literally opposites, and them both surviving to the end just makes me absolutely giddy. Also, it would mean an upset both against V AND against Redcloak, which would save us from the most boring possible finale.

[Riftwolf]

O-Chul . Just on the grounds that tge last match up will be more interesting between Belkar/V and the comics LG Paragon.

[Liquor Box]

I don't see a distinction. That sounds like "the author is presenting this character in a dishonest way" to me.

Also, Belkar is being presented in a more and more sympathetic light himself. (Which I wasn't buying at first, either. But with the latest strip, I'm 100% on board.)

Just because you don't see it, or want to read it as something other than what I said, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I see it, and I think that was what Ben137 was getting at too.

Belkar has had some mildly sympathetic moments, but you would struggle to find anyone on this board who doesn't understand that he is still presented as evil. But as several threads (incuding these ones) demonstrate, V is presented as not evil such that several people actually argue that he is not despite several of his actions being unambiguously evil by any standard.

[Liquor Box]

O-Chul . Just on the grounds that tge last match up will be more interesting between Belkar/V and the comics LG Paragon.

Personally, I'd love to see an all evil final.

[alwaysbebatman]

Just because you don't see it, or want to read it as something other than what I said, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I see it, and I think that was what Ben137 was getting at too.

Belkar has had some mildly sympathetic moments, but you would struggle to find anyone on this board who doesn't understand that he is still presented as evil. But as several threads (incuding these ones) demonstrate, V is presented as not evil such that several people actually argue that he is not despite several of his actions being unambiguously evil by any standard.

Yeah, I don't know if our point of disagreement is where you think it is. I completely agree that Vaarsuvius is not presented by the author and the narrative as evil. That is because the author DOES NOT believe that Vaarsuvius is evil. He has given Vaarsuvius as an example of a pure Neutral character. He did so AFTER Familicide. According to the author, Vaarsuvius is NOT EVIL.

You are absolutely free to believe that Vaarsuvius OUGHT to be considered evil. But this story absolutely does not consider them to be so. Believe me, I get it: I similarly don't understand what Eugene is doing chilling out on clouds with Archons. Luckily for me, Eugene is only a minor character; if a character that I felt so strongly is being treated as a good guy for no good reason were a protagonist, I'm pretty sure I'd just quit. Not my cup of adventure, y'know?

[alwaysbebatman]

This is totally unofficial, and it's possible I made an error in counting, but by my count, right now it's a really tight contest:

O-Chul: 21
Redcloak: 19

Nope, you were right on.

After that, they were briefly tied at 22 all, but it's been all O-Chul since: 27/22 with O-Chul in the lead.

[Liquor Box]

Yeah, I don't know if our point of disagreement is where you think it is. I completely agree that Vaarsuvius is not presented by the author and the narrative as evil. That is because the author DOES NOT believe that Vaarsuvius is evil. He has given Vaarsuvius as an example of a pure Neutral character. He did so AFTER Familicide. According to the author, Vaarsuvius is NOT EVIL.

You are absolutely free to believe that Vaarsuvius OUGHT to be considered evil. But this story absolutely does not consider them to be so. Believe me, I get it: I similarly don't understand what Eugene is doing chilling out on clouds with Archons. Luckily for me, Eugene is only a minor character; if a character that I felt so strongly is being treated as a good guy for no good reason were a protagonist, I'm pretty sure I'd just quit. Not my cup of adventure, y'know?

So does that mean we are agreed? That there is a disconnect between the presentation of V as fundamentally not evil and his actions in the comic (and you perhaps see Eugene as in the same category)? And there is no such disconnect with Belkar?