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Thread: Railroading And Expectations
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2017-09-13, 12:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Railroading And Expectations
Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2017-09-13 at 12:49 PM.
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2017-09-13, 12:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Railroading And Expectations
My Avatar is Glimtwizzle, a Gnomish Fighter/Illusionist by Cuthalion.
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2017-09-13, 12:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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2017-09-13, 12:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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2017-09-13, 12:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Railroading And Expectations
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2017-09-13, 12:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Railroading And Expectations
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2017-09-13, 12:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Railroading And Expectations
Except I'm really not. I'm attacking your guys' response to him. That's a very different thing. You guys are the ones causing threads to be derailed, if you just let him have one post of potentially crappy stuff, and then moved on, the discussion could continue to be productive. But now it's "how long until somebody jumps on Darth Ultron's crap and derails a thread to the point where there is NO MORE valid discussion because it's only you guys arguing with him.
I mean you aren't going to convince him, he's not going to convince you, and a thread is pretty much trashed by the exact same argument, over and over and over and over. It's not quite as bad as it was with JediPotter, but it's pretty close. It used to be that there was a lot of good discussion about railroading and when railroading began and how to avoid the perception of such. Now it's just sound and fury signifying absolutely nothing. And frankly the fault is mostly with those responding to Darth Ultron, more even than Darth Ultron himself, since defending a position is pretty expected.
True but the thread was already thoroughly derailed. And would never have come back, pretty much flat out. Since all of the thread was Darth Ultron and responses to him after a couple pages. Meaning any further value was unlikely to develop. And I'm personally hoping that the people who frequently jump on his posts are able to be swayed by discussion to potentially examine refraining from doing so in the future.Last edited by AMFV; 2017-09-13 at 01:01 PM.
My Avatar is Glimtwizzle, a Gnomish Fighter/Illusionist by Cuthalion.
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2017-09-13, 01:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Railroading And Expectations
I do concur which is why I've pretty much disengaged. I may disagree with almost everything which DU says on this page however that is no reason that a forum poster shouldn't be able to get the answer to their question. I will say however that DUs argument style is quite perturbing, mainly insisting that players are horrible petulant snot nosed little children combined with raising entire armies of strawmen whenever presented with a counter argument. Not to mention saying that saying that those who don't subscribe to their way of thinking are roll-players who only want teh combatz.
I think that the other posters raised up a number of the issues inherent in the heist plan, namely that there are a number of ways that it could be addressed. I do think that any GM who just says to any of the alternate ways "No that won't work" isn't very creative and is being a touch jerky. Although I do have to agree with DU that forcing buy in on every adventure is definitely immersion breaking and not to be confused with buy in on campaign which I view as mandatory. But that doesn't change the fact that saying "the only way to get this item out of the bank is through a bank heist" isn't realistic, is fairly immersion breaking, and appears to be an example of railroading.
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2017-09-13, 01:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Railroading And Expectations
At this point, you're doing the equivalent of walking into a room, seeing a lot of horsecrap, and blaming the people trying to clean it up instead of the horse it all actually came from.
We literally cannot have a discussion about railroading without said poster crapping it up with his self-serving, self-aggrandizing, bloviating, argument-by-definition nonsense. This is not a matter of interpretation, or of how one person sees it versus how another person see sit, or "that's just your opinion, man".
If someone was constantly telling people "you can run your car on melted butter" in an automotive discussion forum, would you expect the rest of the posters to just roll their eyes and ignore it, while new readers came in and read it and thought "hey, that's a great idea, I'll try putting melted butter in my gas tank instead of gasoline next time".
Said poster's comments and advice on GMing are literally bad for gaming, and will absolutely result in bad games and the loss of gamers. His statements on what makes for a good game and power dynamics at the table and the "correct" GM-player relationship are so awful that I have to remind myself that it's not a parody. It's Poe's Law in action.
On the nose.Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2017-09-13 at 01:15 PM.
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2017-09-13, 01:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Railroading And Expectations
Wait, this is a thread where people actually reply? I'd mistaken it for a forum bot arena. It's certainly different from most of the playground, there's a suspicious like of theoretical optimisation.
So the real question the playground should be answering is, is there some way to add railroading to my build in order to end up with a stronger character? Will going off the rails increase my ability to solve problems?
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2017-09-13, 01:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Railroading And Expectations
Last edited by Tinkerer; 2017-09-13 at 01:18 PM.
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2017-09-13, 01:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Railroading And Expectations
I would certainly agree that his style (in forum posting) leaves a lot to be desired. I'm fairly sure though, from reading through his posts that his style in gaming is not nearly as extreme as his posting style would suggest. I suspect strongly that he is just not able to formulate good argumentation for his points, hence the armies of strawman and poor response to counter-arguments.
True, but there are DMs like that. And if they have sufficient good qualities to make it fun to play with them, I wouldn't mind that too terrible much. Obviously there are those that would, but for me that isn't that big a deal. I go to plenty of games where it's a combat simulator and I just go to play combat and get awesome combat moments, there are games where it's the DM's novel, and if that novel is good (or amusingly bad), I can tolerate that.
No, this would be like coming into a room with horsecrap and yelling at people who were tracking it around and spreading it so that it wasn't just in a small area but rather spread all around the room. You're only cleaning it up if he backs down and agrees, since he doesn't, and he continues to respond, then you're spreading it around, not cleaning it up. You're not solving a problem you're exacerbating it, and that's pretty obvious.
Yes, and if you let that one post go, without jumping back to the same argument as before, it'd be just one post. And frankly it is "just your opinion, man"
But we're just talking about slightly more railroading and a more authoritarian approach. That's not melted butter in a gas tank, it's a style argument. That's like you arguing against muscle cars on a car forum because they have many negative qualities. Which is arguably true, but it's still a matter of opinion rather than an objective fact no matter how many times you declare it to be so.
Bad for gaming in your most not humble opinion. I've stated that I've played games as he's described running them, and not minded it. Just because you wouldn't enjoy something doesn't mean that what he's describing is awful. No matter how poor he is at actually describing things or how aggrandizing he is.
Also I'm glad that you are an authority on what is "good gaming" and what is "bad gaming" I thought that had to do with whether the participants were having fun, but I guess Max_Killjoy has the objective truth in what is good and what is bad for gaming for all gamers. That's amazing, I should definitely just do whatever it is you say for all my games.My Avatar is Glimtwizzle, a Gnomish Fighter/Illusionist by Cuthalion.
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2017-09-13, 01:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Railroading And Expectations
I mean, it definitely is. My life has gotten a lot better since I've stopped trying to engage with him, and started just talking around him and presenting counter-arguments as if he isn't there (and occasionally posting memes at him). But he does have a knack for getting under people's skins that I haven't seen in a while.
To be fair, we're talking about a guy who has repeatedly bragged about leaving players in tears, and driving players who follow different styles than him out of gaming entirely. He then follows up, invariably, by complaints about how awful his players (and by extension all players) are. So I'm willing to say that even if he has a style that some people like, he's garbage at implementing it.
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2017-09-13, 01:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Railroading And Expectations
No, just plain bad for gaming, end of story. He's the sort of GM who poisons the well.
I frankly doubt you have. Try going through his posting history in detail, and really looking at how he says he treats his players, and the things he says about his players, and really all players.
Strawman much?
It's the constant refusal to respond to what other people have actually said, and the raw self-righteousness with which he presents disrespectful toxicity as the proper approach to gaming.
Exactly -- and I'm starting to wonder how someone (not you Friv) who's been here even longer than I have, could have just totally missed the long history said poster has of saying those things.Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2017-09-13 at 01:38 PM.
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2017-09-13, 01:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Railroading And Expectations
To be unfair, Gygax often talked about how he "beat" his players or thwarted their designs. He's considered pretty influential on gaming. So it's a different more competitive style. The same way that a boxer might talk about how he made his opponents leave in tears, or a wargamer. That's what the closer point of comparison would be. So that's not necessarily a representation of abuse, but I suspect a different style of gaming.
Also that sounds pretty hyperbolic to me. Like the kind of things that a wargamer would brag about with no basis in actual fact.
Only in your most esteemed opinion. I'm sorry that I contradicted your opinion. It turns out those aren't facts. Restating them doesn't make them become any more factual.
I certainly have, are you claiming that I'm lying. And I've been here lurking a lot longer than you have. I've seen most of his posting history and other like him from before. He's got a different style, and you disapprove. But I've played with that and not minded it.
Well you're the one implying that you objectively know what is best for gaming. That's not really a straw man that's a corner you've painted yourself into.Last edited by AMFV; 2017-09-13 at 01:38 PM.
My Avatar is Glimtwizzle, a Gnomish Fighter/Illusionist by Cuthalion.
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2017-09-13, 01:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Railroading And Expectations
No, I'm telling you that I doubt you've ever been in and enjoyed a game like said poster actually describes running.
You've quite possibly been in and enjoyed many games that are like your very generous and forgiving interpretation of how he describes running his games.
No, I'm not. Not at all.
"This person is telling you to eat poisonous food" is not a claim that one's tastes in food are objectively the best for everyone. Food that will make people sick, or kill them, is not a matter of a "different style", or "opinion".
There's a vast range of gaming that's not a toxic mess of GM self-aggrandizement. Pointing out a specific GM for being -- BY HIS OWN WORDS OVER MULTIPLE YEARS -- toxic and self-aggrandizing, and actively hostile and openly disdainful and disrespectful towards players, is not a claim to know what's best for all gamers and all gaming.Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2017-09-13 at 02:08 PM.
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2017-09-13, 02:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Railroading And Expectations
So I'm an idiot or I'm a liar. I'd like to know which you think I am. Go into detail, am I an idiot or am I liar?
I've played games where the DM was antagonistic, where the DM insulted people, where the DM bragged about driving people off who weren't teh hardc0rz enough to handle his games. And I enjoyed them, but I like that kind of competitive atmosphere, I always have. It's definitely not for everybody, but it's also not "game poison that is good for nobody".
It's a claim that style is not good for gaming. And I'm saying that there are serious gamers who enjoy a hostile atmosphere like that. You don't get to **** on their parade because you don't enjoy that. Hell when I was 15 or 16 that would have been my preferred gaming style, now I've mellowed out and I enjoy a much wider range of things. But that was the style that got me into gaming, and the reason I stuck with it. Ergo your whole claim is a pile of crap.
And this isn't going to "make people sick" it won't fricking kill anybody. It's just a different way to play a game. It's like the nerdy guys claiming that the way that jocks play football is toxic because they talk crap during the game, without actually understanding that culture or what surrounds it.My Avatar is Glimtwizzle, a Gnomish Fighter/Illusionist by Cuthalion.
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2017-09-13, 02:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Railroading And Expectations
Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2017-09-13 at 02:14 PM.
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2017-09-13, 02:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Railroading And Expectations
Well 15-16 year old me was definitely most into that kind of game. I've mellowed as I've gotten older though, I like a lot of different styles of game now. I'd bet I could even run a game to your liking. Although 15-16 year old me probably couldn't have. But I like how you've switched to personally insulting me based on the kind of games I've enjoyed as a player because that disproves your argument.
Everybody likes different games, I used to like that kind of douchey teenager game where the DM is bad guy and you guys are trying to pull one over on him, because every story he has where he drives somebody off in tears, you have a story where you pull something off that works out for your character. Or where you get something awesome. Or roll really well. In a game like that you can really enjoy even the small victories.
Now I like a lot of gaming styles and DMing styles, so I think you'd be surprised about my ability to run games that you would enjoy. I wouldn't sell me short, just because of the styles of game I used to enjoy.My Avatar is Glimtwizzle, a Gnomish Fighter/Illusionist by Cuthalion.
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2017-09-13, 02:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Railroading And Expectations
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2017-09-13, 02:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Railroading And Expectations
To say nothing is effectively the same as agreeing. Which I don't.
And I'm fairly certain DU does not need any sort of provoking to say things that are indicative that he thinks all players are idiots, jerks, or idiotjerks waiting for the right moment to ruin everything. He has literally made his first statement in threads outlining almost exactly that. To say he's not exactly a bastion of having respect for your fellow players doesn't require me to stretch or provoke at all. Dude offers it up in his opening statements.
Edit now that I'm caught up:
I'm 100% certain as someone working in the psych field that there is a difference between friendly insults between competitors, and abusive word vomit.
Honestly, anyone who enjoys actively being insulted with intent to demean and attack for real with no safeword available should have my job. I get that every single day from these patients. That someone would subject themselves to the treatment I get daily for fun strikes me as being highly, HIGHLY abnormal. I don't even know BDSM enthusiasts into this kind of thing.
In short, I've seen sufficient of DU's agenda and asserted points to know that it is not worth giving a benefit of the doubt. Just take at face value.
I'm also interested that you're taking offense at the implication that you are either a liar or an idiot, when DU uses EXACTLY THAT IMPLICATION to make his points. If DU is defensible, we shouldn't be offended by his tactics.
I say nothing here of his person, but his behaviors here have a long history of being not acceptable in their lack of basic respect for other human beings. To the degree that starts up, I will do unto others as they do unto the posters. Give no respect, receive none. Eventually, maybe, being made to feel like an idiot and a liar will clue him in that making others feel that way is BS. Or maybe it will just steer him clear of threads I post in. I'm ok with either.Last edited by ImNotTrevor; 2017-09-13 at 02:40 PM.
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2017-09-13, 02:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Railroading And Expectations
Your argument is that he would push people out of gaming who started with his games. I pointed out that I started with that kind of game. A wishy-washy FATE or FUDGE type game would turned 16-year old me off. I would have not enjoyed that and would have been pushed away by that style of gaming. I think that any style of gaming has a chance to drive players off, depending on their own tastes. Now that I'm older I've learned to enjoy a wider breadth of styles.
So your argument is wrong. Your assertion that his way to enjoy the game is wrong, is not founded. You dislike that style of game, but some people don't. So for that class of people they'd be fine with it. You're attacking a culture with which you are unfamiliar, to defend people who are willingly participating in that culture, I'm not sure that you have any grounds to do any of that.My Avatar is Glimtwizzle, a Gnomish Fighter/Illusionist by Cuthalion.
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2017-09-13, 02:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Railroading And Expectations
Ummm... no it isn't. That isn't how that works. At all. I can disagree with something without loudly voicing my opinion. That's pretty common knowledge.
And again that's a part of a particular gaming culture that DarthUltron is part of, and that I have been a part of. Talking crap about people is part of a very specific kind of culture. I wouldn't argue that DU is a bastion of having respect for fellow players. He's pretty intolerant of styles not his own as well. But I would argue that your sides argument's against are ineffectual and are largely based on a failure to understand the style of gaming that he partakes in. Which is not worth derailing every thread that has to do with a particularly common gaming topic over.My Avatar is Glimtwizzle, a Gnomish Fighter/Illusionist by Cuthalion.
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2017-09-13, 02:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Railroading And Expectations
If someone was constantly telling people "you can run your car on melted butter" in an automotive discussion forum, would you expect the rest of the posters to just roll their eyes and ignore it, while new readers came in and read it and thought "hey, that's a great idea, I'll try putting melted butter in my gas tank instead of gasoline next time".
2) I have see no evidence of any new poster thinking "hey, that's a great idea" in response to Darth Ultron, for the same reason I've never seen anyone having that response to "you can run your car on melterd butter". The reason for that being that the ideas presented are self-evidently nonsense."It's the fate of all things under the sky,
to grow old and wither and die."
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2017-09-13, 02:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Railroading And Expectations
If someone enjoys being belittled, insulted, talked down to, and dealing with an openly hostile and disrespectful GM who regards all players as either game-destroying jerkidiots or game-destroying jerkidiots who haven't revealed themselves yet... if someone enjoys being the puncher or the punchee in a game of mutual bullying and harassment... that's not really a counter-point to my argument that said GM is bad for gaming.
It's evidence that there are more gamers out there who are bad for gaming that maybe we realized.
"Abusive, bullying, disrespectful jerks who take pleasure in the suffering of others" is not a culture or gaming style.Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2017-09-13 at 02:48 PM.
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2017-09-13, 02:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Railroading And Expectations
But it is... I mean have you ever been around people smack talking in a basketball game? It's certainly cultural there, and in these kind of games it's the same cultural idea. It's talking smack. And it's fine to do that. In some gaming circles you talk like that to let people know vicious and hardcorez your game is, and then other gamers talk about having survived your games as a player as a badge of honor. Again it's a culture you don't understand, but that doesn't make it not a culture or a style.
My Avatar is Glimtwizzle, a Gnomish Fighter/Illusionist by Cuthalion.
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2017-09-13, 02:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Railroading And Expectations
Where did "loudly" come into the picture? My earliest responses to DU in other threads were as measured as was deserved and based on my belief that human beings deserve respect until proven otherwise, and sometimes even then.
Since then, I've solved this particular puzzle and so I don't bother playing the same game.
And again that's a part of a particular gaming culture that DarthUltron is part of, and that I have been a part of. Talking crap about people is part of a very specific kind of culture.
Bragging about making someone cry is the kind of thing the bullies on my unit do.
Calling people idiots and assuming they have no capacity for agency or wise decisionmaking with no element or inkling of respect is not smacktalk.
I reject this "it's just smacktalk" smoke and mirrors out of hand.
I wouldn't argue that DU is a bastion of having respect for fellow players. He's pretty intolerant of styles not his own as well. But I would argue that your sides argument's against are ineffectual and are largely based on a failure to understand the style of gaming that he partakes in. Which is not worth derailing every thread that has to do with a particularly common gaming topic over.
That ain't what DU is talking about.Last edited by ImNotTrevor; 2017-09-13 at 02:47 PM.
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2017-09-13, 02:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Railroading And Expectations
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2017-09-13, 02:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Railroading And Expectations
Well it's become loud in recent times, I'm not sure if it was you, but at least one poster was bragging about repeatedly trolling DU posts, and I'm fairly sure that was you. In fact if you'll check post #62 you'll see that it was you, and that you admitted to following him to other threads to continue the same stupid argument that you'd been having elsewhere. As a matter of fact that is exactly the post that inspired me to comment on this bullcrap.
You aren't familiar with smack talk like I've seen then. You've been involved in smack talk lite. Like not the same kind of stuff I've seen. I have an advantage, I'm blue collar, I've worked construction (and still work in construction) and I've been in the military. I've definitely seen pretty severe giving somebody **** and then have it be just that.
Based on your interpretation of my experiences, that seems not exactlyt
I'm pretty sure it is, and you haven't been a part of the kind of group I'm describing. You've been a part of something that's similar but much less, and so you aren't qualified to comment, only that you yourself don't understand what's going on and think because you've had similar experiences you can dictate stuff to others.
Not in my experience, I've had the same experience with friendships and what-not in that culture as in others. The same kinds of personal experiences, just a different way of interacting, if you haven't been a part of it, you can't understand it, that's pretty much how it is.Last edited by AMFV; 2017-09-13 at 02:55 PM.
My Avatar is Glimtwizzle, a Gnomish Fighter/Illusionist by Cuthalion.
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2017-09-13, 03:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Railroading And Expectations
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.