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Thread: Railroading And Expectations
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2017-09-13, 03:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Railroading And Expectations
You don't have to listen to him, though. When Darth Ultron posts a thing, just post "Everything Darth Ultron says is wrong", and then ignore the rest of his posts in the thread. If everyone does that, his first post in each thread will be met with an appropriate degree of scorn, and confused onlookers encountering this for the first time can get a feel for how accurate his claims are without anyone wasting time debating him.
(I mean, read the post first, because he's only wrong about 90% of the time, and you don't want to post that everything he says is wrong the other 10% of the time.)
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2017-09-13, 03:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2014
Re: Railroading And Expectations
"Thou shalt not do unto others as they have done unto you."
Shove off. If you're fine with throwing shade, that shouldn't bother you one iota. I'm literally doing the thing you're telling us is ok, but you've got your panties in a bunch about it.
Does not compute.
You aren't familiar with smack talk like I've seen then. You've been involved in smack talk lite. Like not the same kind of stuff I've seen. I have an advantage, I'm blue collar, I've worked construction (and still work in construction) and I've been in the military. I've definitely seen pretty severe giving somebody **** and then have it be just that.
There's a difference between throwing shade/roasting, and rejecting someone's basic humanity.
Based on your interpretation of my experiences, that seems not exactlytI'm pretty sure it is, and you haven't been a part of the kind of group I'm describing.
You've been a part of something that's similar but much less, and so you aren't qualified to comment
, only that you yourself don't understand what's going on and think because you've had similar experiences you can dictate stuff to others.
"Thou shalt not point out people being a-holes," apparently.
Not in my experience, I've had the same experience with friendships and what-not in that culture as in others. The same kinds of personal experiences, just a different way of interacting, if you haven't been a part of it, you can't understand it, that's pretty much how it is.
I reject it out of hand for the "Oh, you had to have been there" Big Fish Story it is.
I think this bait is safe to ignore, now.Last edited by ImNotTrevor; 2017-09-13 at 05:21 PM.
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2017-09-14, 12:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Railroading And Expectations
How do straw men compare with skeletons and zombies, in terms of combat effectiveness? Is there a HD limit to control them, or are they more expensive and built as constructs?
Knowing what the rails are and deliberately playing to them will always make your character more powerful, as long as the rails call for you to fill a role of one of the heroes. You can bend any obstacle to your railroad-driven path to your whim as long as you use the bending of it to serve the job of staying on-rails.
Though you're out of luck if it's something like the Witchblade Trilogy, as written for Iron Kingdoms; those rails never let you actually touch the plot, and give you almost as much illusion of impact as a roller coaster with a narrative about how you're involved (when you know you really are just a spectator). Only you can FAIL at various parts of it and thus get kicked off the ride.
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2017-09-14, 01:01 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
Re: Railroading And Expectations
No you aren't. You're being an ass of a different sort and then assuming that because I would be an ass in a gaming situation of a certain type that I should be okay with that, worst of all you're being a disruptive ass to potentially useful threads. So no, not the same at all, and you shouldn't even try to make the comparison.
I don't think DU has "rejected his fellow player's basic humanity". here's where you can shove off. You clearly haven't been around the same kind of stuff as I have. I'm sorry it's very clear from your manner of speech and from the quick offense your taking at being called out on that sort of thing. I don't think you have any additional room to talk here.
Good for you, that still doesn't mean you've been in groups that were as heavy on the smack talk as I have. Apparently. And you're inventing an arbitrary line with no strong definitions. When does it go past smack talk and to "rejecting somebody's basic humanity" nobody knows but you, you're the drawer of the line as to what's appropriate.
Sorry, kid, go **** yourself. Grow up, realize that not everybody has the same the standards that you do, and you don't get to enforce standards on groups of which you are not a part. You tell them you don't approve by not involving yourself with them. Going on a public witchhunt for another poster, where you're following them from thread to thread, derailing multiple threads and admitting to that as though that's something you're proud of. Yeah **** off, you have no moral high ground here.
Yep, cause you don't own that line, every group gets to decide where it is for themselves. And going thread to thread harassing a poster has never been cool. Regardless of what you felt about how they said, bringing up stuff they said in previous threads, yeah, not cool. And I'm sorry but I'm calling you out on it, you're being far more disruptive to the forum and far less pleasant than DU being an arrogant ass ever has been.
You reject it out of hand?!? Well I reject your claim that you have been in the kind of group you describe. I reject the idea that you understand what that kind of group involves or the people involved in it. And again, you can go **** yourself. Seriously, like you don't get to claim my experiences are invalid when they would conveniently disprove your point, not at all.My Avatar is Glimtwizzle, a Gnomish Fighter/Illusionist by Cuthalion.
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2017-09-14, 06:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Railroading And Expectations
Call me Laco or Ladislav (if you need to be formal). Avatar comes from the talented linklele.
Formerly GMing: Riddle of Steel: Soldiers of Fortune
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2017-09-14, 06:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Railroading And Expectations
The deep irony of that entire paragraph needs to be captured for posterity.
"You don't get to tell me my experiences are invalid, your experiences are clearly not valid for doing so."
Meanwhile, I don't care about this supposed "culture". If this "culture" finds treating people like garbage "good fun", then said "culture" is just part of the problem. See also, "hazing"... many other examples where "culture" is used as an excuse for people treating each other like garbage ("Oh that's part of their culture we can't question it") would break the forum rules, but several should be immediately obvious.Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2017-09-14 at 06:26 AM.
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2017-09-14, 06:27 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2014
Re: Railroading And Expectations
And yet I did. And will.
While you derail the thread over this stink, and go on to get mad and start flinging down below.
I think I'm A-OK on the ass front.
I don't think DU has "rejected his fellow player's basic humanity". here's where you can shove off. You clearly haven't been around the same kind of stuff as I have. I'm sorry it's very clear from your manner of speech and from the quick offense your taking at being called out on that sort of thing. I don't think you have any additional room to talk here.
Good for you, that still doesn't mean you've been in groups that were as heavy on the smack talk as I have. Apparently. And you're inventing an arbitrary line with no strong definitions. When does it go past smack talk and to "rejecting somebody's basic humanity" nobody knows but you, you're the drawer of the line as to what's appropriate.
Most people will be absolute savages to their friends in their kind of context. You can tell it's a friend because they don't sling that same crap all over town.
I will tell most of my friends they are worthless idiots of some description or another to their face and it's fine.
I don't go onto public forums and complain about my friends being worthless idiots, and because MY friends are worthless idiots, literally everyone's friends are worthless idiots.
The 2nd is not cool on several levels, whereas the first is only not cool if that particular friend has legit psych issues or depression or something. (Been down that road, too. Work in it.) The 2nd is also actively malicious, where the first is not.
Then again your friends were SUPER EDGY so like, basic social skills somehow don't apply?
Sorry, kid, go **** yourself.
Now he's swearing and calling people "kid" to prove how mature he is.
2/10
Grow up, realize that not everybody has the same the standards that you do, and you don't get to enforce standards on groups of which you are not a part. You tell them you don't approve by not involving yourself with them. Going on a public witchhunt for another poster, where you're following them from thread to thread, derailing multiple threads and admitting to that as though that's something you're proud of. Yeah **** off, you have no moral high ground here.
You have literally become the problem you're complaining about.
Allow me a moment to chuckle.
Referencing a thread discussion that happened the day before about exactly the same topic is not exactly >FORBIDDEN!< here.
Yep, cause you don't own that line, every group gets to decide where it is for themselves. And going thread to thread harassing a poster has never been cool. Regardless of what you felt about how they said, bringing up stuff they said in previous threads, yeah, not cool. And I'm sorry but I'm calling you out on it, you're being far more disruptive to the forum and far less pleasant than DU being an arrogant ass ever has been.
And the stink you're currently derailing the thread with is.....? Noble? Because it's YOUR idea?
Or do you just not like it when someone refuses your attempt to arbitrarily reject them?
You reject it out of hand?!? Well I reject your claim that you have been in the kind of group you describe. I reject the idea that you understand what that kind of group involves or the people involved in it. And again, you can go **** yourself. Seriously, like you don't get to claim my experiences are invalid when they would conveniently disprove your point, not at all.
1. They don't disprove any point, they're a sad attempt to disclude anyone who doesn't meet an arbitrary standard from participating, which isn't an argument.
2. It complicitly approves of hauling a group's BS spreading into another medium with no context and applying said BS to everyone else (what DU does), which is not wanted, asked for, or even cool, bruh.
3. You're now resorting to edgy swearing to prove how grownup you are, which is a bad strategy against a guy who works with Adolescent Psych patients all day (you're really not shocking me or hurting my feelings.)
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2017-09-14, 07:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2010
Re: Railroading And Expectations
It is simply not railroading if the players are helping to lay the tracks.
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2017-09-14, 07:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2015
Re: Railroading And Expectations
My knack is not only a beautiful gift from the Great Architect, but it is also a finely tuned ability fuels by my endless passion and sharp mind.
People that cry, and I do really mean cry, over something that happens in a game have lots and lots of problems. And it is only worse when it is there fault and don't ''get'' why did there character die after touching the Orb of Death after being told three (or twelve) times ''don't touch the Orb of Death''.
I do ''drive away'' people that have different styles then mine, but how is this bad again? I like a game that is XYZ. Period. If you like PTQ type games, there is really no point in us gaming together.
And we get ''extension'' that when I say ''some players'' people ''read that'' as all players? So if I type ''all players'' I wonder what that means? I wish I had the ''other'' translation book other people are using(not that I'd follow it, but I'd just want to see it).
Well, I'm very generous in game play (the character has to get that sword +5 before they can loose it. Though, this is logical based sequence of events or a ''plot'', so not everyone does the game play this way. )
But it is fair to say I'm not very forgiving, in the sense I'm sure your using the word. For example I allow no smoking in my house, so if I catch you sneaking a smoke in my house(say in my daughter's bedroom) I'm going to have rocks fall on your character and tell you to leave my house. I won't care that you ''just had to'' have a smoke and you did not want to go all the way outside because it was ''cold''. But I know that a lot of people are ''forgiving'' in the ''other way'' and will basically let anyone get away with anything any time for any reason and all ways forgive them no matter what. So,no, I'm not like that.
This part is true as I (or, well mostly my wife) often make ''party trays'' full of fruits and vegetables and cheese (I do love cheese myself and buy only the real stuff) and a lot of gamers don't want to eat that ''poison healthy food'' and will run over to the Quick-E-Mart for junk food.
Well, remember I'm only ''bad hard'' on the bad players, but I'm ''hard fun'' on the good players (I know it is hard to understand the difference between the two) .
I all ways though that when I put words like ''some'' it meant ''not all'', guess that was not clear enough. Guess I have all most exactly said that, but I did not. Humm?
Some differences, yes. Safewords? Lol. I do offer people Safe Spaces: literally anywhere in the world they wish to go other then my house :)
I can see that you have judged yourself to be the all knowing and always right judge of judges to make such a statement.
Well, as someone working in the psych field to another, you might want to stop and look at yourself. If you see statements as ''implications'' and see all ''implications'' only one way...well, this might be an indication of a mental problem. 12.7 Million adults suffer from treatable mental conditions, and get no treatment.
Long history? Check my sign up date. Well, guess it depends on your definition of ''long''. I've been posting for more then a week if that is a ''long'' time to you.
I am all ways amused by the attitude ''if you don't bend over backwards to me First and All Ways then I won't be nice to you or respect you. Like such a person is just waiting to be offended (''they have been in the room 6.2 seconds and have not said ''hi' to me they must be Evil Incarnate!''). But with my psych field back ground, I at least, understand the behavior.
Sure, maybe? I don't really keep track of bad ex-players. They could have or might of have done anything.
Yea, what he said. Except I don't talk (or ''type'') crap about people. And I might be part of a counter-culture.
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2017-09-14, 09:15 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2016
Re: Railroading And Expectations
They unfortunately do not compare favorably. In 3.5 they have 1HP and a -10 BAB. They literally exist solely as an attempt to make the person combating them look good. On the plus side due to this their effective HD is 0 so you can raise legions of them without running into issues about control. They usually require about 15 seconds to a minute to raise and there is a stigma around their construction but they are more common than one might think. Although with the proper feat selection you can attempt to shape them into more cunning and dangerous shapes their base stats always remain the same.
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2017-09-14, 10:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2014
Re: Railroading And Expectations
Ah, allow me to amend:
The assertion has been, in the past, that 99% of players are idiotjerks. (Or close to.)
Sorry to overstep that 1%.
Some differences, yes. Safewords? Lol. I do offer people Safe Spaces: literally anywhere in the world they wish to go other then my house :)
I can see that you have judged yourself to be the all knowing and always right judge of judges to make such a statement.
Now requires omniscience.
Well, as someone working in the psych field to another, you might want to stop and look at yourself. If you see statements as ''implications'' and see all ''implications'' only one way...well, this might be an indication of a mental problem. 12.7 Million adults suffer from treatable mental conditions, and get no treatment.
Long history? Check my sign up date. Well, guess it depends on your definition of ''long''. I've been posting for more then a week if that is a ''long'' time to you.
Keep reaching and you might get to the same zipcode as a straw.
I am all ways amused by the attitude ''if you don't bend over backwards to me First and All Ways then I won't be nice to you or respect you
. Like such a person is just waiting to be offended (''they have been in the room 6.2 seconds and have not said ''hi' to me they must be Evil Incarnate!''). But with my psych field back ground, I at least, understand the behavior.
Definitely has a chance against Skeltons, but still very weak against PCs with access to the Detect BS skill.
Yea, what he said. Except I don't talk (or ''type'') crap about people. And I might be part of a counter-culture.Last edited by ImNotTrevor; 2017-09-14 at 10:55 AM.
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2017-09-14, 11:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Railroading And Expectations
Is it irony when a thread about railroading goes completely off the rails?
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2017-09-14, 12:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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2017-09-14, 12:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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2017-09-14, 03:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2014
Re: Railroading And Expectations
Actual picture of the railroad:
Remember, loyalists: only Chaos railroads. The Emperor runs sandboxes.
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2017-09-14, 09:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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2017-09-15, 06:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Railroading And Expectations
I have set the percentages at 75% and 25% myself, as I have said.
Not sure I know what that life style is.....
Well, maybe just ''amazing intelligent intuition and awarness''. Though I do subscribe and read Omni, and that is about science.
Exactly! Like how your game has a plot, you demand it is not a plot, yet nearly everyone else will say ''well, that is a plot'', and you double down on ''it may look exactly like a plot, but it is not!"
I know like ''a week'' is a long time to some people, and most little kids and anyone under 25 or so (Remember the Southpark were Cartman could not wait three weeks for the Nentendo Wii to come out...lol). Myself, a ''long'' time is like 10+ years. I would not say ''I have owned a Iphone X for a long time''.
This is so funny. And so true.
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2017-09-15, 07:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2009
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- In my library
Re: Railroading And Expectations
To explain the difference as I understand it between a safeword and a Safe Space, a Safe Space is when people don't want dissenting opinions and so insist they can't come into the 'Safe Space' (which while I think it's a stupid idea, as someone who has been in fierce debates I also understand it).
A safeword is where two consenting adults wanting to do things that could get a bit out of hand to the point where a participant feels uncomfortable agree that in this specific case no doesn't mean no, because they both know that octopus (or whatever word is unlikely to be used in the activity in question) means no. This originates in BDSM, because not all forms and extremes of BDSM are comfortable for all participants, and sometimes saying no is part of the act, so safewords exist as a way to remove consent without stopping when that isn't the intention.
Sorry to any BDSM practitioners offended at how bad the explanation above is, I do not personally participate in the lifestyle and have only a passing interest. As long as it's all SSC I don't care what happens behind closed doors.
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2017-09-15, 08:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Railroading And Expectations
A very slanted view of the term.
Replace "dissenting" with "hostile" and you get a bit closer. The real contention behind the term is how subjective it can be to perceive hostility from another person.
Safe Spaces try to err on the side of caution, causing them to be a bit heavy handed in their protectiveness. After all, if you don't want the censorship, you can leave the Safe Space.
In a very real way, this forum matches a definition of Safe Space in how it protects against certain interactions that other contexts would not enforce.
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2017-09-15, 08:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Railroading And Expectations
"Safe spaces" may well have started out for legitimate reasons, for people who faced actual traumatic experiences and needed a place without outside noise and possible hostility on the subject.
Now... a "safe space" is too often nothing more than what certain sorts call their echo chambers.It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2017-09-15, 08:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Railroading And Expectations
The point was that you consider the vast majority of players to be problems. The exact percentages aren't important; it's the mentality behind them. (And I've seen you use various different numbers before anyway.)
This is a constant problem with talking to you. Your definitions for things are different from everyone else's. So when we talk about "plots", we're talking about stories written before the campaign starts where the player characters' actions are predetermined, but you define anything that has any amount of preplanning whatsoever so be "plotted out", which is a wildly different definition.
Of course, there are other problems with your described DMing style, but your conversational skills/techniques are the primary issue here.
Pedantry doesn't prove arguments. All it does, as you've seen time and time again, is frustrate the people you are talking to. Quotes like the above are pedantry.
The actual origins of safe spaces are actually for keeping discussions on-topic, rather than re-litigating agreed-upon premises. For example, if you are discussing a controversial, for whatever reason, scientific or sociological phenomenon from a certain point of view, a "safe space" (which is actually a term used to disparage academics created by people who don't understand the intent of the concept) is established where the discussion is kept to discussing how to handle the phenomenon, rather than explaining, for the upteenth time, how said phenomenon works.
As with most things in science, it's been co-opted by angry, ignorant people of a certain persuasion to dump on other people of a certain persuasion.
Not a BDSM practitioner myself, but safe words are definitely used to reinforce consent, not remove it. Though that may be what you meant to begin with and my comprehension is off.Avatar credit to Shades of Gray
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2017-09-15, 08:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Railroading And Expectations
Yeah, I completely get the theory behind them, I just found out about them after people started using the idea as 'this is a safe space so don't say that stuff' (which can include 'science says this, what to talk about it'). Which I'd be perfectly fine with if people bothered to signpost their echo chambers before getting annoyed that I've walked into one.
Not a BDSM practitioner myself, but safe words are definitely used to reinforce consent, not remove it. Though that may be what you meant to begin with and my comprehension is off.
I make no claim to understand this beyond the level of 'because of what some people like to do, they agree that no won't always pick no and pick a different word for "I don't want to do this anymore."'
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2017-09-15, 09:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Railroading And Expectations
@Anonymouswizard:
I find it funny how people always jump to BDSM to explain safe words. They, along with tapping out, exist in combat sports just as well. The point is to unambiguously tell another person to stop when you can't take it anymore.
Use of safewords are easily justified for physical activities where a person might otherwise be unable to disengage from a situation. Less so for tabletop games where people can stand up and leave on their own volition at any moment.
Now "safe space" simply means a space where harassment, bullying etc. hostile behaviour is banned and gets you booted out. Theoretically all gaming tables would do best if they were safe spaces. The difficulty is how some people's subjective notions of such things are obtuse or ridiculously broad."It's the fate of all things under the sky,
to grow old and wither and die."
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2017-09-15, 09:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Railroading And Expectations
I can understand the frustration. Funnily enough, this particular sort of thread is a really good indicator of what the concept of "safe spaces" was designed to prevent. In this case, we were lucky enough to get OP an answer because this was a question thread, but imagine a discussion thread about railroading called, I don't know... "How to Mitigate Railroading in my Games: A DM's Guide". Essentially a thread meant to theorize on how to prevent your games from becoming railroads.
The discussion starts out fine, but half a page in, someone comes in and says, "Well, railroading is good/not real and this is why..." repeatedly, until someone engages and then the thread is essentially over, never having served its original purpose. Nobody who was talking in the thread wanted to have to redefine and debate the existence of railroading; they just wanted to come in with the premise that it exists and causes bad games and to talk about how to identify and stop it. That's where establishing a "safe space" would be useful in the context of this forum.Avatar credit to Shades of Gray
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2017-09-15, 09:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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- In my library
Re: Railroading And Expectations
Honestly, I've just never heard them used in that way. I understand tapping out as being something in combat sports that serves the same function, but never heard of a safeword used in those contexts. Maybe it's because everybody jumps to BDSM when explaining them.
Now "safe space" simply means a space where harassment, bullying etc. hostile behaviour is banned and gets you booted out. Theoretically all gaming tables would do best if they were safe spaces. The difficulty is how some people's subjective notions of such things are obtuse or ridiculously broad.
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2017-09-15, 09:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Railroading And Expectations
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2017-09-15, 09:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2016
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Re: Railroading And Expectations
I mean, that was likely the intent when the people who coined the term started using it.
Avatar credit to Shades of Gray
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2017-09-15, 11:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2014
Re: Railroading And Expectations
Your numbers change as often as gas prices, so I'm not surprised they've changed.
Not sure I know what that life style is.....
Well, maybe just ''amazing intelligent intuition and awarness''. Though I do subscribe and read Omni, and that is about science.
Thanks!
Exactly! Like how your game has a plot, you demand it is not a plot, yet nearly everyone else will say ''well, that is a plot'', and you double down on ''it may look exactly like a plot, but it is not!"
Quote me three people who have explicitly taken your stance.
I'll wait.
I know like ''a week'' is a long time to some people, and most little kids and anyone under 25 or so (Remember the Southpark were Cartman could not wait three weeks for the Nentendo Wii to come out...lol). Myself, a ''long'' time is like 10+ years. I would not say ''I have owned a Iphone X for a long time''.
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2017-09-15, 11:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2009
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Re: Railroading And Expectations
Possibly because in most non-BDSM context, the safe word is just "STOP!" or some equivalent and doesn't require much explanation. (In Judo: "Maitta!", Japanese for "I surrender!") The reason why BDSM, LARPing etc. have to get inventive about safe words is because there is an element of acting, so the safe word has to clearly break character as well. (ie. "STOP!" doesn't work if your character could reasonably yell it as part of the game.)
"It's the fate of all things under the sky,
to grow old and wither and die."
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2017-09-15, 01:33 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2010
Re: Railroading And Expectations
Every railroading thread ever:
The Vast Majority of People: "Railroading is a thing, and we all agree on what it is fairly closely, though there's a few grey areas. Some people like it, some don't, and that's fine, just make sure you're all on the same page. I personally do/don't like it, but also don't believe that my preference is a statement of objective goodness or that people doing/not doing it are having badwrongfun."
One Or Two People: "Railroading is the best/worst thing ever, and if you do/don't do it, you're an inferior gamer and probably emotionally defective in some way. I will further prove my point by trying to stretch the definition of railroading in some way that nobody else in the thread agrees to, so that I can then refer to my personal definition as proof of my correctness. If you disagree with me, you are literally Hitler.""Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking)"