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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    Default Re: Railroading And Expectations

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    We literally cannot have a discussion about railroading without said poster crapping it up with his self-serving, self-aggrandizing, bloviating, argument-by-definition nonsense. This is not a matter of interpretation, or of how one person sees it versus how another person see sit, or "that's just your opinion, man".
    You don't have to listen to him, though. When Darth Ultron posts a thing, just post "Everything Darth Ultron says is wrong", and then ignore the rest of his posts in the thread. If everyone does that, his first post in each thread will be met with an appropriate degree of scorn, and confused onlookers encountering this for the first time can get a feel for how accurate his claims are without anyone wasting time debating him.

    (I mean, read the post first, because he's only wrong about 90% of the time, and you don't want to post that everything he says is wrong the other 10% of the time.)

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    Default Re: Railroading And Expectations

    Quote Originally Posted by AMFV View Post
    Well it's become loud in recent times, I'm not sure if it was you, but at least one poster was bragging about repeatedly trolling DU posts, and I'm fairly sure that was you. In fact if you'll check post #62 you'll see that it was you, and that you admitted to following him to other threads to continue the same stupid argument that you'd been having elsewhere. As a matter of fact that is exactly the post that inspired me to comment on this bullcrap.
    "Thou shalt not do unto others as they have done unto you."
    Shove off. If you're fine with throwing shade, that shouldn't bother you one iota. I'm literally doing the thing you're telling us is ok, but you've got your panties in a bunch about it.

    Does not compute.

    You aren't familiar with smack talk like I've seen then. You've been involved in smack talk lite. Like not the same kind of stuff I've seen. I have an advantage, I'm blue collar, I've worked construction (and still work in construction) and I've been in the military. I've definitely seen pretty severe giving somebody **** and then have it be just that.
    That you went severe into it and were still friends is great. Being bluecollar or in the military sadly does not give you a monopoly on high-filth smack talk. And since I've worked in several blue collar jobs across multiple state lines, and have two construction workers in my family, one former military family member, and am close friends with an actual sailor, I'm rejecting this attempt to pull rank. It can shove off.
    There's a difference between throwing shade/roasting, and rejecting someone's basic humanity.

    Based on your interpretation of my experiences, that seems not exactlyt
    I'm pretty sure it is, and you haven't been a part of the kind of group I'm describing.
    I've been in the kind of group where being flagrantly racist to one another was in the clear, as well as other crap that would get me labelled a bigot in literally any other social situation. And we STILL at least acknowledged one another's basic humanity.

    You've been a part of something that's similar but much less, and so you aren't qualified to comment
    Shove off.

    , only that you yourself don't understand what's going on and think because you've had similar experiences you can dictate stuff to others.
    Acknowledging the line between throwing shade and being a ridiculous tool and pointing out when it is crossed is apparently not cool anymore.
    "Thou shalt not point out people being a-holes," apparently.

    Not in my experience, I've had the same experience with friendships and what-not in that culture as in others. The same kinds of personal experiences, just a different way of interacting, if you haven't been a part of it, you can't understand it, that's pretty much how it is.
    Once again, shove off with this idiotic attempt to pull rank.
    I reject it out of hand for the "Oh, you had to have been there" Big Fish Story it is.

    I think this bait is safe to ignore, now.
    Last edited by ImNotTrevor; 2017-09-13 at 05:21 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #123
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    Default Re: Railroading And Expectations

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinkerer View Post
    raising entire armies of strawmen
    How do straw men compare with skeletons and zombies, in terms of combat effectiveness? Is there a HD limit to control them, or are they more expensive and built as constructs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    So the real question the playground should be answering is, is there some way to add railroading to my build in order to end up with a stronger character? Will going off the rails increase my ability to solve problems?
    Knowing what the rails are and deliberately playing to them will always make your character more powerful, as long as the rails call for you to fill a role of one of the heroes. You can bend any obstacle to your railroad-driven path to your whim as long as you use the bending of it to serve the job of staying on-rails.

    Though you're out of luck if it's something like the Witchblade Trilogy, as written for Iron Kingdoms; those rails never let you actually touch the plot, and give you almost as much illusion of impact as a roller coaster with a narrative about how you're involved (when you know you really are just a spectator). Only you can FAIL at various parts of it and thus get kicked off the ride.

  4. - Top - End - #124
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    Default Re: Railroading And Expectations

    Quote Originally Posted by ImNotTrevor View Post
    "Thou shalt not do unto others as they have done unto you."
    Shove off. If you're fine with throwing shade, that shouldn't bother you one iota. I'm literally doing the thing you're telling us is ok, but you've got your panties in a bunch about it.

    Does not compute.
    No you aren't. You're being an ass of a different sort and then assuming that because I would be an ass in a gaming situation of a certain type that I should be okay with that, worst of all you're being a disruptive ass to potentially useful threads. So no, not the same at all, and you shouldn't even try to make the comparison.


    Quote Originally Posted by ImNotTrevor View Post
    That you went severe into it and were still friends is great. Being bluecollar or in the military sadly does not give you a monopoly on high-filth smack talk. And since I've worked in several blue collar jobs across multiple state lines, and have two construction workers in my family, one former military family member, and am close friends with an actual sailor, I'm rejecting this attempt to pull rank. It can shove off.
    There's a difference between throwing shade/roasting, and rejecting someone's basic humanity.
    I don't think DU has "rejected his fellow player's basic humanity". here's where you can shove off. You clearly haven't been around the same kind of stuff as I have. I'm sorry it's very clear from your manner of speech and from the quick offense your taking at being called out on that sort of thing. I don't think you have any additional room to talk here.

    Quote Originally Posted by ImNotTrevor View Post
    I've been in the kind of group where being flagrantly racist to one another was in the clear, as well as other crap that would get me labelled a bigot in literally any other social situation. And we STILL at least acknowledged one another's basic humanity.
    Good for you, that still doesn't mean you've been in groups that were as heavy on the smack talk as I have. Apparently. And you're inventing an arbitrary line with no strong definitions. When does it go past smack talk and to "rejecting somebody's basic humanity" nobody knows but you, you're the drawer of the line as to what's appropriate.

    Quote Originally Posted by ImNotTrevor View Post
    Shove off.
    Sorry, kid, go **** yourself. Grow up, realize that not everybody has the same the standards that you do, and you don't get to enforce standards on groups of which you are not a part. You tell them you don't approve by not involving yourself with them. Going on a public witchhunt for another poster, where you're following them from thread to thread, derailing multiple threads and admitting to that as though that's something you're proud of. Yeah **** off, you have no moral high ground here.

    Quote Originally Posted by ImNotTrevor View Post
    Acknowledging the line between throwing shade and being a ridiculous tool and pointing out when it is crossed is apparently not cool anymore.
    "Thou shalt not point out people being a-holes," apparently.
    Yep, cause you don't own that line, every group gets to decide where it is for themselves. And going thread to thread harassing a poster has never been cool. Regardless of what you felt about how they said, bringing up stuff they said in previous threads, yeah, not cool. And I'm sorry but I'm calling you out on it, you're being far more disruptive to the forum and far less pleasant than DU being an arrogant ass ever has been.

    Quote Originally Posted by ImNotTrevor View Post
    Once again, shove off with this idiotic attempt to pull rank.
    I reject it out of hand for the "Oh, you had to have been there" Big Fish Story it is.
    You reject it out of hand?!? Well I reject your claim that you have been in the kind of group you describe. I reject the idea that you understand what that kind of group involves or the people involved in it. And again, you can go **** yourself. Seriously, like you don't get to claim my experiences are invalid when they would conveniently disprove your point, not at all.
    My Avatar is Glimtwizzle, a Gnomish Fighter/Illusionist by Cuthalion.

  5. - Top - End - #125
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    Default Re: Railroading And Expectations

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    How do straw men compare with skeletons and zombies, in terms of combat effectiveness? Is there a HD limit to control them, or are they more expensive and built as constructs?
    They do get this +5 to Intimidation against Crows... however, they perform very badly against fire-based opponents.

    Good thing is, that if you get fire-resistant units, you can remove the penalty for fighting in darkness if you set them on fire!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kol Korran View Post
    Instead of having an adventure, from which a cool unexpected story may rise, you had a story, with an adventure built and designed to enable the story, but also ensure (or close to ensure) it happens.

  6. - Top - End - #126
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    Exclamation Re: Railroading And Expectations

    Quote Originally Posted by AMFV View Post
    You reject it out of hand?!? Well I reject your claim that you have been in the kind of group you describe. I reject the idea that you understand what that kind of group involves or the people involved in it. And again, you can go **** yourself. Seriously, like you don't get to claim my experiences are invalid when they would conveniently disprove your point, not at all.
    The deep irony of that entire paragraph needs to be captured for posterity.

    "You don't get to tell me my experiences are invalid, your experiences are clearly not valid for doing so."


    Meanwhile, I don't care about this supposed "culture". If this "culture" finds treating people like garbage "good fun", then said "culture" is just part of the problem. See also, "hazing"... many other examples where "culture" is used as an excuse for people treating each other like garbage ("Oh that's part of their culture we can't question it") would break the forum rules, but several should be immediately obvious.
    Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2017-09-14 at 06:26 AM.
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    The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.

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    Default Re: Railroading And Expectations

    Quote Originally Posted by AMFV View Post
    No you aren't. You're being an ass of a different sort and then assuming that because I would be an ass in a gaming situation of a certain type that I should be okay with that, worst of all you're being a disruptive ass to potentially useful threads. So no, not the same at all, and you shouldn't even try to make the comparison.
    And yet I did. And will.
    While you derail the thread over this stink, and go on to get mad and start flinging down below.
    I think I'm A-OK on the ass front.

    I don't think DU has "rejected his fellow player's basic humanity". here's where you can shove off. You clearly haven't been around the same kind of stuff as I have. I'm sorry it's very clear from your manner of speech and from the quick offense your taking at being called out on that sort of thing. I don't think you have any additional room to talk here.
    Describing a difference and taking offense are two different things. :D

    Good for you, that still doesn't mean you've been in groups that were as heavy on the smack talk as I have. Apparently. And you're inventing an arbitrary line with no strong definitions. When does it go past smack talk and to "rejecting somebody's basic humanity" nobody knows but you, you're the drawer of the line as to what's appropriate.
    My baseline tends to fall here:
    Most people will be absolute savages to their friends in their kind of context. You can tell it's a friend because they don't sling that same crap all over town.
    I will tell most of my friends they are worthless idiots of some description or another to their face and it's fine.
    I don't go onto public forums and complain about my friends being worthless idiots, and because MY friends are worthless idiots, literally everyone's friends are worthless idiots.
    The 2nd is not cool on several levels, whereas the first is only not cool if that particular friend has legit psych issues or depression or something. (Been down that road, too. Work in it.) The 2nd is also actively malicious, where the first is not.

    Then again your friends were SUPER EDGY so like, basic social skills somehow don't apply?

    Sorry, kid, go **** yourself.


    Now he's swearing and calling people "kid" to prove how mature he is.
    2/10

    Grow up, realize that not everybody has the same the standards that you do, and you don't get to enforce standards on groups of which you are not a part. You tell them you don't approve by not involving yourself with them. Going on a public witchhunt for another poster, where you're following them from thread to thread, derailing multiple threads and admitting to that as though that's something you're proud of. Yeah **** off, you have no moral high ground here.
    You do realize it is now you who is derailing the thread? DU backed out a while back and the only stink around here is you raising a stink about people raising a stink.
    You have literally become the problem you're complaining about.
    Allow me a moment to chuckle.

    Referencing a thread discussion that happened the day before about exactly the same topic is not exactly >FORBIDDEN!< here.

    Yep, cause you don't own that line, every group gets to decide where it is for themselves. And going thread to thread harassing a poster has never been cool. Regardless of what you felt about how they said, bringing up stuff they said in previous threads, yeah, not cool. And I'm sorry but I'm calling you out on it, you're being far more disruptive to the forum and far less pleasant than DU being an arrogant ass ever has been.
    Mk.
    And the stink you're currently derailing the thread with is.....? Noble? Because it's YOUR idea?
    Or do you just not like it when someone refuses your attempt to arbitrarily reject them?

    You reject it out of hand?!? Well I reject your claim that you have been in the kind of group you describe. I reject the idea that you understand what that kind of group involves or the people involved in it. And again, you can go **** yourself. Seriously, like you don't get to claim my experiences are invalid when they would conveniently disprove your point, not at all.
    Except:
    1. They don't disprove any point, they're a sad attempt to disclude anyone who doesn't meet an arbitrary standard from participating, which isn't an argument.

    2. It complicitly approves of hauling a group's BS spreading into another medium with no context and applying said BS to everyone else (what DU does), which is not wanted, asked for, or even cool, bruh.

    3. You're now resorting to edgy swearing to prove how grownup you are, which is a bad strategy against a guy who works with Adolescent Psych patients all day (you're really not shocking me or hurting my feelings.)

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    Default Re: Railroading And Expectations

    It is simply not railroading if the players are helping to lay the tracks.

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    Default Re: Railroading And Expectations

    Quote Originally Posted by Friv View Post
    I mean, it definitely is. My life has gotten a lot better since I've stopped trying to engage with him, and started just talking around him and presenting counter-arguments as if he isn't there (and occasionally posting memes at him). But he does have a knack for getting under people's skins that I haven't seen in a while.
    My knack is not only a beautiful gift from the Great Architect, but it is also a finely tuned ability fuels by my endless passion and sharp mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Friv View Post
    To be fair, we're talking about a guy who has repeatedly bragged about leaving players in tears, and driving players who follow different styles than him out of gaming entirely. He then follows up, invariably, by complaints about how awful his players (and by extension all players) are. So I'm willing to say that even if he has a style that some people like, he's garbage at implementing it.
    People that cry, and I do really mean cry, over something that happens in a game have lots and lots of problems. And it is only worse when it is there fault and don't ''get'' why did there character die after touching the Orb of Death after being told three (or twelve) times ''don't touch the Orb of Death''.

    I do ''drive away'' people that have different styles then mine, but how is this bad again? I like a game that is XYZ. Period. If you like PTQ type games, there is really no point in us gaming together.

    And we get ''extension'' that when I say ''some players'' people ''read that'' as all players? So if I type ''all players'' I wonder what that means? I wish I had the ''other'' translation book other people are using(not that I'd follow it, but I'd just want to see it).

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    No, I'm telling you that I doubt you've ever been in and enjoyed a game like said poster actually describes running.

    You've quite possibly been in and enjoyed many games that are like your very generous and forgiving interpretation of how he describes running his games.
    Well, I'm very generous in game play (the character has to get that sword +5 before they can loose it. Though, this is logical based sequence of events or a ''plot'', so not everyone does the game play this way. )

    But it is fair to say I'm not very forgiving, in the sense I'm sure your using the word. For example I allow no smoking in my house, so if I catch you sneaking a smoke in my house(say in my daughter's bedroom) I'm going to have rocks fall on your character and tell you to leave my house. I won't care that you ''just had to'' have a smoke and you did not want to go all the way outside because it was ''cold''. But I know that a lot of people are ''forgiving'' in the ''other way'' and will basically let anyone get away with anything any time for any reason and all ways forgive them no matter what. So,no, I'm not like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    "This person is telling you to eat poisonous food" is not a claim that one's tastes in food are objectively the best for everyone. Food that will make people sick, or kill them, is not a matter of a "different style", or "opinion".
    This part is true as I (or, well mostly my wife) often make ''party trays'' full of fruits and vegetables and cheese (I do love cheese myself and buy only the real stuff) and a lot of gamers don't want to eat that ''poison healthy food'' and will run over to the Quick-E-Mart for junk food.

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    There's a vast range of gaming that's not a toxic mess of GM self-aggrandizement. Pointing out a specific GM for being -- BY HIS OWN WORDS OVER MULTIPLE YEARS -- toxic and self-aggrandizing, and actively hostile and openly disdainful and disrespectful towards players, is not a claim to know what's best for all gamers and all gaming.
    Well, remember I'm only ''bad hard'' on the bad players, but I'm ''hard fun'' on the good players (I know it is hard to understand the difference between the two) .

    Quote Originally Posted by ImNotTrevor View Post
    And I'm fairly certain DU does not need any sort of provoking to say things that are indicative that he thinks all players are idiots, jerks, or idiotjerks waiting for the right moment to ruin everything. He has literally made his first statement in threads outlining almost exactly that. To say he's not exactly a bastion of having respect for your fellow players doesn't require me to stretch or provoke at all. Dude offers it up in his opening statements.
    I all ways though that when I put words like ''some'' it meant ''not all'', guess that was not clear enough. Guess I have all most exactly said that, but I did not. Humm?

    Quote Originally Posted by ImNotTrevor View Post
    I'm 100% certain as someone working in the psych field that there is a difference between friendly insults between competitors, and abusive word vomit.
    Honestly, anyone who enjoys actively being insulted with intent to demean and attack for real with no safeword available should have my job.
    Some differences, yes. Safewords? Lol. I do offer people Safe Spaces: literally anywhere in the world they wish to go other then my house :)

    Quote Originally Posted by ImNotTrevor View Post
    In short, I've seen sufficient of DU's agenda and asserted points to know that it is not worth giving a benefit of the doubt. Just take at face value.
    I can see that you have judged yourself to be the all knowing and always right judge of judges to make such a statement.


    Quote Originally Posted by ImNotTrevor View Post
    I'm also interested that you're taking offense at the implication that you are either a liar or an idiot, when DU uses EXACTLY THAT IMPLICATION to make his points. If DU is defensible, we shouldn't be offended by his tactics.
    Well, as someone working in the psych field to another, you might want to stop and look at yourself. If you see statements as ''implications'' and see all ''implications'' only one way...well, this might be an indication of a mental problem. 12.7 Million adults suffer from treatable mental conditions, and get no treatment.

    Quote Originally Posted by ImNotTrevor View Post
    I say nothing here of his person, but his behaviors here have a long history of being not acceptable in their lack of basic respect for other human beings. To the degree that starts up, I will do unto others as they do unto the posters. Give no respect, receive none. Eventually, maybe, being made to feel like an idiot and a liar will clue him in that making others feel that way is BS. Or maybe it will just steer him clear of threads I post in. I'm ok with either.
    Long history? Check my sign up date. Well, guess it depends on your definition of ''long''. I've been posting for more then a week if that is a ''long'' time to you.

    I am all ways amused by the attitude ''if you don't bend over backwards to me First and All Ways then I won't be nice to you or respect you. Like such a person is just waiting to be offended (''they have been in the room 6.2 seconds and have not said ''hi' to me they must be Evil Incarnate!''). But with my psych field back ground, I at least, understand the behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by AMFV View Post
    Your argument is that he would push people out of gaming who started with his games.
    Sure, maybe? I don't really keep track of bad ex-players. They could have or might of have done anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by AMFV View Post
    And again that's a part of a particular gaming culture that DarthUltron is part of, and that I have been a part of. Talking crap about people is part of a very specific kind of culture. I wouldn't argue that DU is a bastion of having respect for fellow players. He's pretty intolerant of styles not his own as well. But I would argue that your sides argument's against are ineffectual and are largely based on a failure to understand the style of gaming that he partakes in. Which is not worth derailing every thread that has to do with a particularly common gaming topic over.
    Yea, what he said. Except I don't talk (or ''type'') crap about people. And I might be part of a counter-culture.

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    Default Re: Railroading And Expectations

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    How do straw men compare with skeletons and zombies, in terms of combat effectiveness? Is there a HD limit to control them, or are they more expensive and built as constructs?
    They unfortunately do not compare favorably. In 3.5 they have 1HP and a -10 BAB. They literally exist solely as an attempt to make the person combating them look good. On the plus side due to this their effective HD is 0 so you can raise legions of them without running into issues about control. They usually require about 15 seconds to a minute to raise and there is a stigma around their construction but they are more common than one might think. Although with the proper feat selection you can attempt to shape them into more cunning and dangerous shapes their base stats always remain the same.

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    Default Re: Railroading And Expectations

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    I all ways though that when I put words like ''some'' it meant ''not all'', guess that was not clear enough. Guess I have all most exactly said that, but I did not. Humm?
    Ah, allow me to amend:
    The assertion has been, in the past, that 99% of players are idiotjerks. (Or close to.)
    Sorry to overstep that 1%.

    Some differences, yes. Safewords? Lol. I do offer people Safe Spaces: literally anywhere in the world they wish to go other then my house :)
    The term Safeword comes from the BDSM lifestyle, and has no relation to the Safe Spaces thing.

    I can see that you have judged yourself to be the all knowing and always right judge of judges to make such a statement.
    reporting your personal policy:
    Now requires omniscience.

    Well, as someone working in the psych field to another, you might want to stop and look at yourself. If you see statements as ''implications'' and see all ''implications'' only one way...well, this might be an indication of a mental problem. 12.7 Million adults suffer from treatable mental conditions, and get no treatment.
    Ah yes. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and loves bread, you're crazy if you call it a duck.

    Long history? Check my sign up date. Well, guess it depends on your definition of ''long''. I've been posting for more then a week if that is a ''long'' time to you.
    Nitpicking the use of the word "long."
    Keep reaching and you might get to the same zipcode as a straw.

    I am all ways amused by the attitude ''if you don't bend over backwards to me First and All Ways then I won't be nice to you or respect you
    for fun and profit replace "me" with "my plot" and bathe in the irony.

    . Like such a person is just waiting to be offended (''they have been in the room 6.2 seconds and have not said ''hi' to me they must be Evil Incarnate!''). But with my psych field back ground, I at least, understand the behavior.
    See here the rare strawman/adhominem hybrid.
    Definitely has a chance against Skeltons, but still very weak against PCs with access to the Detect BS skill.


    Yea, what he said. Except I don't talk (or ''type'') crap about people. And I might be part of a counter-culture.
    At least we can put the Smacktalk theorem to rest...
    Last edited by ImNotTrevor; 2017-09-14 at 10:55 AM.

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    Default Re: Railroading And Expectations

    Is it irony when a thread about railroading goes completely off the rails?

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    Default Re: Railroading And Expectations

    Quote Originally Posted by Friv View Post
    Is it irony when a thread about railroading goes completely off the rails?
    Don't try to railroad our thread! We are allowed to completely ignore the topic if we want to, that's poster agency!

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    Default Re: Railroading And Expectations

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudd View Post
    Don't try to railroad our thread! We are allowed to completely ignore the topic if we want to, that's poster agency!
    Sorry I wasn't paying attention, did somebody say agency poster???

    Spoiler: Agency Poster
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    Last edited by Tinkerer; 2017-09-14 at 12:26 PM.

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    Default Re: Railroading And Expectations

    Actual picture of the railroad:


    Remember, loyalists: only Chaos railroads. The Emperor runs sandboxes.

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    Default Re: Railroading And Expectations

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinkerer View Post
    Sorry I wasn't paying attention, did somebody say agency poster???

    Spoiler: Agency Poster
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    Nah, I'm pretty sure it was Rail Agency.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    We should try to make that a thing; I think it might help civility. Hey, GitP, let's try to make this a thing: when you're arguing optimization strategies, RAW-logic, and similar such things that you'd never actually use in a game, tag your post [THEORETICAL] and/or use green text

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    Default Re: Railroading And Expectations

    Quote Originally Posted by ImNotTrevor View Post
    Ah, allow me to amend:
    The assertion has been, in the past, that 99% of players are idiotjerks. (Or close to.)
    Sorry to overstep that 1%.
    I have set the percentages at 75% and 25% myself, as I have said.

    Quote Originally Posted by ImNotTrevor View Post
    The term Safeword comes from the BDSM lifestyle, and has no relation to the Safe Spaces thing.
    Not sure I know what that life style is.....

    Quote Originally Posted by ImNotTrevor View Post
    reporting your personal policy:
    Now requires omniscience.
    Well, maybe just ''amazing intelligent intuition and awarness''. Though I do subscribe and read Omni, and that is about science.

    Quote Originally Posted by ImNotTrevor View Post
    Ah yes. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and loves bread, you're crazy if you call it a duck.
    Exactly! Like how your game has a plot, you demand it is not a plot, yet nearly everyone else will say ''well, that is a plot'', and you double down on ''it may look exactly like a plot, but it is not!"

    Quote Originally Posted by ImNotTrevor View Post
    Nitpicking the use of the word "long."
    Keep reaching and you might get to the same zipcode as a straw.
    I know like ''a week'' is a long time to some people, and most little kids and anyone under 25 or so (Remember the Southpark were Cartman could not wait three weeks for the Nentendo Wii to come out...lol). Myself, a ''long'' time is like 10+ years. I would not say ''I have owned a Iphone X for a long time''.

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    Don't try to railroad our thread! We are allowed to completely ignore the topic if we want to, that's poster agency!
    This is so funny. And so true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    Some differences, yes. Safewords? Lol. I do offer people Safe Spaces: literally anywhere in the world they wish to go other then my house :)
    To explain the difference as I understand it between a safeword and a Safe Space, a Safe Space is when people don't want dissenting opinions and so insist they can't come into the 'Safe Space' (which while I think it's a stupid idea, as someone who has been in fierce debates I also understand it).

    A safeword is where two consenting adults wanting to do things that could get a bit out of hand to the point where a participant feels uncomfortable agree that in this specific case no doesn't mean no, because they both know that octopus (or whatever word is unlikely to be used in the activity in question) means no. This originates in BDSM, because not all forms and extremes of BDSM are comfortable for all participants, and sometimes saying no is part of the act, so safewords exist as a way to remove consent without stopping when that isn't the intention.

    Sorry to any BDSM practitioners offended at how bad the explanation above is, I do not personally participate in the lifestyle and have only a passing interest. As long as it's all SSC I don't care what happens behind closed doors.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    To explain the difference as I understand it between a safeword and a Safe Space, a Safe Space is when people don't want dissenting opinions and so insist they can't come into the 'Safe Space' (which while I think it's a stupid idea, as someone who has been in fierce debates I also understand it).
    A very slanted view of the term.

    Replace "dissenting" with "hostile" and you get a bit closer. The real contention behind the term is how subjective it can be to perceive hostility from another person.

    Safe Spaces try to err on the side of caution, causing them to be a bit heavy handed in their protectiveness. After all, if you don't want the censorship, you can leave the Safe Space.

    In a very real way, this forum matches a definition of Safe Space in how it protects against certain interactions that other contexts would not enforce.
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    Default Re: Railroading And Expectations

    "Safe spaces" may well have started out for legitimate reasons, for people who faced actual traumatic experiences and needed a place without outside noise and possible hostility on the subject.

    Now... a "safe space" is too often nothing more than what certain sorts call their echo chambers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    I have set the percentages at 75% and 25% myself, as I have said.
    The point was that you consider the vast majority of players to be problems. The exact percentages aren't important; it's the mentality behind them. (And I've seen you use various different numbers before anyway.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    Exactly! Like how your game has a plot, you demand it is not a plot, yet nearly everyone else will say ''well, that is a plot'', and you double down on ''it may look exactly like a plot, but it is not!"
    This is a constant problem with talking to you. Your definitions for things are different from everyone else's. So when we talk about "plots", we're talking about stories written before the campaign starts where the player characters' actions are predetermined, but you define anything that has any amount of preplanning whatsoever so be "plotted out", which is a wildly different definition.

    Of course, there are other problems with your described DMing style, but your conversational skills/techniques are the primary issue here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    Myself, a ''long'' time is like 10+ years. I would not say ''I have owned a Iphone X for a long time''.
    Pedantry doesn't prove arguments. All it does, as you've seen time and time again, is frustrate the people you are talking to. Quotes like the above are pedantry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    To explain the difference as I understand it between a safeword and a Safe Space, a Safe Space is when people don't want dissenting opinions and so insist they can't come into the 'Safe Space' (which while I think it's a stupid idea, as someone who has been in fierce debates I also understand it).
    The actual origins of safe spaces are actually for keeping discussions on-topic, rather than re-litigating agreed-upon premises. For example, if you are discussing a controversial, for whatever reason, scientific or sociological phenomenon from a certain point of view, a "safe space" (which is actually a term used to disparage academics created by people who don't understand the intent of the concept) is established where the discussion is kept to discussing how to handle the phenomenon, rather than explaining, for the upteenth time, how said phenomenon works.

    As with most things in science, it's been co-opted by angry, ignorant people of a certain persuasion to dump on other people of a certain persuasion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    This originates in BDSM, because not all forms and extremes of BDSM are comfortable for all participants, and sometimes saying no is part of the act, so safewords exist as a way to remove consent without stopping when that isn't the intention.
    Not a BDSM practitioner myself, but safe words are definitely used to reinforce consent, not remove it. Though that may be what you meant to begin with and my comprehension is off.
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    Post Re: Railroading And Expectations

    Quote Originally Posted by Scripten View Post
    The actual origins of safe spaces are actually for keeping discussions on-topic, rather than re-litigating agreed-upon premises. For example, if you are discussing a controversial, for whatever reason, scientific or sociological phenomenon from a certain point of view, a "safe space" (which is actually a term used to disparage academics created by people who don't understand the intent of the concept) is established where the discussion is kept to discussing how to handle the phenomenon, rather than explaining, for the upteenth time, how said phenomenon works.

    As with most things in science, it's been co-opted by angry, ignorant people of a certain persuasion to dump on other people of a certain persuasion.
    Yeah, I completely get the theory behind them, I just found out about them after people started using the idea as 'this is a safe space so don't say that stuff' (which can include 'science says this, what to talk about it'). Which I'd be perfectly fine with if people bothered to signpost their echo chambers before getting annoyed that I've walked into one.

    Not a BDSM practitioner myself, but safe words are definitely used to reinforce consent, not remove it. Though that may be what you meant to begin with and my comprehension is off.
    Kind of? As far as I understand it they perform both functions, in allowing a practitioner to state that they're fine with it or that they want to slow down/stop. I don't fully understand the world do I've likely got things wrong, but my understanding is that either having a safeword means there's consent but there's a way to stop/slow down, or there's multiple safewords to allow people to consent to something harder, say they're uncomfortable, or ask to stop.

    I make no claim to understand this beyond the level of 'because of what some people like to do, they agree that no won't always pick no and pick a different word for "I don't want to do this anymore."'
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

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    @Anonymouswizard:

    I find it funny how people always jump to BDSM to explain safe words. They, along with tapping out, exist in combat sports just as well. The point is to unambiguously tell another person to stop when you can't take it anymore.

    Use of safewords are easily justified for physical activities where a person might otherwise be unable to disengage from a situation. Less so for tabletop games where people can stand up and leave on their own volition at any moment.

    Now "safe space" simply means a space where harassment, bullying etc. hostile behaviour is banned and gets you booted out. Theoretically all gaming tables would do best if they were safe spaces. The difficulty is how some people's subjective notions of such things are obtuse or ridiculously broad.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    Yeah, I completely get the theory behind them, I just found out about them after people started using the idea as 'this is a safe space so don't say that stuff' (which can include 'science says this, what to talk about it'). Which I'd be perfectly fine with if people bothered to signpost their echo chambers before getting annoyed that I've walked into one.
    I can understand the frustration. Funnily enough, this particular sort of thread is a really good indicator of what the concept of "safe spaces" was designed to prevent. In this case, we were lucky enough to get OP an answer because this was a question thread, but imagine a discussion thread about railroading called, I don't know... "How to Mitigate Railroading in my Games: A DM's Guide". Essentially a thread meant to theorize on how to prevent your games from becoming railroads.

    The discussion starts out fine, but half a page in, someone comes in and says, "Well, railroading is good/not real and this is why..." repeatedly, until someone engages and then the thread is essentially over, never having served its original purpose. Nobody who was talking in the thread wanted to have to redefine and debate the existence of railroading; they just wanted to come in with the premise that it exists and causes bad games and to talk about how to identify and stop it. That's where establishing a "safe space" would be useful in the context of this forum.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen_Feet View Post
    @Anonymouswizard:

    I find it funny how people always jump to BDSM to explain safe words. They, along with tapping out, exist in combat sports just as well. The point is to unambiguously tell another person to stop when you can't take it anymore.

    Use of safewords are easily justified for physical activities where a person might otherwise be unable to disengage from a situation. Less so for tabletop games where people can stand up and leave on their own volition at any moment.
    Honestly, I've just never heard them used in that way. I understand tapping out as being something in combat sports that serves the same function, but never heard of a safeword used in those contexts. Maybe it's because everybody jumps to BDSM when explaining them.

    Now "safe space" simply means a space where harassment, bullying etc. hostile behaviour is banned and gets you booted out. Theoretically all gaming tables would do best if they were safe spaces. The difficulty is how some people's subjective notions of such things are obtuse or ridiculously broad.
    As I said, I have no problem with the theory, it's the practice which has always let me down.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scripten View Post
    I can understand the frustration. Funnily enough, this particular sort of thread is a really good indicator of what the concept of "safe spaces" was designed to prevent. In this case, we were lucky enough to get OP an answer because this was a question thread, but imagine a discussion thread about railroading called, I don't know... "How to Mitigate Railroading in my Games: A DM's Guide". Essentially a thread meant to theorize on how to prevent your games from becoming railroads.

    The discussion starts out fine, but half a page in, someone comes in and says, "Well, railroading is good/not real and this is why..." repeatedly, until someone engages and then the thread is essentially over, never having served its original purpose. Nobody who was talking in the thread wanted to have to redefine and debate the existence of railroading; they just wanted to come in with the premise that it exists and causes bad games and to talk about how to identify and stop it. That's where establishing a "safe space" would be useful in the context of this forum.
    Now there's a specific useful application of the concept, even if the term "safe space" is IMO kinda misleading in that context.
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    I mean, that was likely the intent when the people who coined the term started using it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    I have set the percentages at 75% and 25% myself, as I have said.
    Your numbers change as often as gas prices, so I'm not surprised they've changed.

    Not sure I know what that life style is.....
    At least we know you're sheltered.

    Well, maybe just ''amazing intelligent intuition and awarness''. Though I do subscribe and read Omni, and that is about science.
    Thank you for not reading thoroughly and missing the point, whereby you accidentally complimented my amazing intelligent intuition and awareness.
    Thanks!

    Exactly! Like how your game has a plot, you demand it is not a plot, yet nearly everyone else will say ''well, that is a plot'', and you double down on ''it may look exactly like a plot, but it is not!"
    Exactly 1 person (you) claiming what I'm doing is a plot is nowhere even close to "nearly everyone else."
    Quote me three people who have explicitly taken your stance.
    I'll wait.

    I know like ''a week'' is a long time to some people, and most little kids and anyone under 25 or so (Remember the Southpark were Cartman could not wait three weeks for the Nentendo Wii to come out...lol). Myself, a ''long'' time is like 10+ years. I would not say ''I have owned a Iphone X for a long time''.
    Pedantic red herrings are pedantic and red

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    Honestly, I've just never heard them used in that way. I understand tapping out as being something in combat sports that serves the same function, but never heard of a safeword used in those contexts. Maybe it's because everybody jumps to BDSM when explaining them.
    Possibly because in most non-BDSM context, the safe word is just "STOP!" or some equivalent and doesn't require much explanation. (In Judo: "Maitta!", Japanese for "I surrender!") The reason why BDSM, LARPing etc. have to get inventive about safe words is because there is an element of acting, so the safe word has to clearly break character as well. (ie. "STOP!" doesn't work if your character could reasonably yell it as part of the game.)
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    Default Re: Railroading And Expectations

    Every railroading thread ever:

    The Vast Majority of People: "Railroading is a thing, and we all agree on what it is fairly closely, though there's a few grey areas. Some people like it, some don't, and that's fine, just make sure you're all on the same page. I personally do/don't like it, but also don't believe that my preference is a statement of objective goodness or that people doing/not doing it are having badwrongfun."

    One Or Two People: "Railroading is the best/worst thing ever, and if you do/don't do it, you're an inferior gamer and probably emotionally defective in some way. I will further prove my point by trying to stretch the definition of railroading in some way that nobody else in the thread agrees to, so that I can then refer to my personal definition as proof of my correctness. If you disagree with me, you are literally Hitler."
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