How does the Minovsky Effect make long-range dumbfire weapons useless?

[Amaril]

Ok, so I've been reading up on how ships might go about detecting one another in realistic space combat, and the consensus among my sources has been that passive IR sensing would be more effective than radar because it works at longer ranges and requires the light travel only half the distance (one way instead of out and back). I know Gundam eliminates guided space missiles with the EMP created by the Minovsky Effect, but then why does that lead to Mobile Suits instead of just long-range dumbfire weapons on ships? The entry on the Gundam wiki mentions the Minovsky Effect diffracts infrared and other light, but wouldn't that just result in enemies' IR signatures showing up as a fuzzy cloud, which you could just aim at the center of? Is there an explanation for this, or is that part just handwaved?

[Olinser]

Ok, so I've been reading up on how ships might go about detecting one another in realistic space combat, and the consensus among my sources has been that passive IR sensing would be more effective than radar because it works at longer ranges and requires the light travel only half the distance (one way instead of out and back). I know Gundam eliminates guided space missiles with the EMP created by the Minovsky Effect, but then why does that lead to Mobile Suits instead of just long-range dumbfire weapons on ships? The entry on the Gundam wiki mentions the Minovsky Effect diffracts infrared and other light, but wouldn't that just result in enemies' IR signatures showing up as a fuzzy cloud, which you could just aim at the center of? Is there an explanation for this, or is that part just handwaved?

Because dumb fire weapons would be ludicrously easy to avoid at anything other than extreme close range and they don't appear to have relativistic projectile weapons.

Unless ships have some way to avoid being detected in the empty void of space, 'realistic' space combat would take place at a range of hundreds of thousands of kilometers (distance from just Earth to the Moon is almost 400,000 KM).

In the time it takes a dumb fire projectile to cross the distance of tens or hundreds of thousands of kilometers the target ship only has to alter its course to move it a couple kilometers to the side to avoid getting hit.

Unless you can launch a projectile at a considerable fraction of the speed of light you either have to use guided projectiles or close the distance so they don't have time to dodge. Since guided projectiles are explicitly ruled out, Gundam uses mobile suits to close the distance.

[Dragonus45]

It doesn't entirely, you still see ship to ship battles that send the occasional potshot. But without radar, lidar, whatever to assist with aiming most things can move out of the way before the shot gets to them at longer ranges. Especially high speed space superiority mobile suits.

[Kitten Champion]

I think you'd also run into issues with the standard ship-based mega-particle weapons - being the setting's primary armament for its high-energy output and armor-piercing nature - which need minutes to compress and discharge.

[Nerd-o-rama]

You can aim for the center of a sensor cloud and possibly miss, which is exactly what battleship weapons do in the setting, or you can send some guy out in a vehicle with an armor-piercing melee weapon or, slightly later, a compact beam cannon to carve the enemy target up for sure (while putting equipment at the risk of enemy MSes or point-defense systems, but the PD systems have the same sensor limitations and have to be fired by human operators with the ensuing limitations).

It's really less "mobile suits are the be-all end-all of combat" and more moving back to a battleship-or-bomber style of navy than today's "fire over-the-horizon missiles at it" standard. The reason they use humanoid robots with heat axes instead of fighters with beam guns and rocket pods is 20% "it's based on converted construction vehicles they had when they started the war", 20% "it's almost feasible to enter and exit space colonies mid-combat this way", and 60% "it looks cool".

A lot of UC Gundam military strategy is based on "it worked early on in the One Year War and now we're wrapped up in a permanent arms race based around who can make the dankest humanoid robot, especially since for some reason most MSes are produced by one super-company who sells to both sides after the original war and has ludicrously disproportionate political-economic power."


I mean, late in the original series, it's worked out how to do remote, indirect-fire drones again by using telepathy as a communications medium (some people are telepathic because Space). There's not actually any reason to not put this system on a battleship, as doing so would afford significantly more protection to the most limited resource in this weapons system (psychic people), people just don't, because all the expectations and strategies have moved to mobile suit-based combat at that point due to the escalating arms race. (There are a few battleship or battleship-sized chassis for psychic remote weapons in other series, but they're fairly distant sequels or spinoffs that use the same setting assumptions - the most immediate development of this technology is attaching it to bigger mobile suits, for some reason).

[Amaril]

I was under the impression the humanoid design of mobile suits is chosen because it allows AMBAC movement, which means turning in space doesn't waste fuel. Not sure how scientific that part is, though. It also seems to me like it would be handy to be able to fly in one direction while firing in another--somehow I have a hard time picturing a more traditional fighter craft with a shape that makes that convenient.

For some reason, I think I had it in my head that relativistic projectiles were a baseline assumption for hard sci-fi space combat, though now I can't imagine why I thought that. Anyway, that's a simple answer to my original question. So...if you could have any Gundam (or other MS) in real life, which would you pick?

[Kato]

So...if you could have any Gundam (or other MS) in real life, which would you pick?

Well, I guess with the original question answered we might as well discuss this..
Is MS limited to Gundam franchise? I tend to forget if it includes all mecha by now...
Clearly not a real robot because.. Well I can't possibly maintain it. Anything from Gundam would require me to join the military or something or it would be useless to me.
I'd have to go for a super robot. Lagann seems like the obvious choice but I lack the passion to fuel it.. Maybe just voltron?

[Anonymouswizard]

Not sure how scientific that part is, though. It also seems to me like it would be handy to be able to fly in one direction while firing in another--somehow I have a hard time picturing a more traditional fighter craft with a shape that makes that convenient.

Starfuries are a good start, yes you need fuel to turn but sticking your thrusters on a stick means it requires less fuel. It's potentially faster and more fuel efficient than moving a humanoid form into the right facing and position.

Literally everyone in space can move in one direction when facing in another, due to space movement being based entirely on 'every action has an equal and opposite reaction'. Accelerating in one direction and firing in another is useful, but a battleship is significantly better equipped for it than a humanoid form. Remember, space movement is just turn and burn.

[Kitten Champion]

So...if you could have any Gundam (or other MS) in real life, which would you pick?

Turn-A Gundam. It avoids any maintenance or power-supply issues, can heal its pilot, is practically invulnerable, and contains a super-weapon that can easily destroy all human civilizations.

If you're gonna screw around with war machines you might as well get the best.

[Aotrs Commander]

Because dumb fire weapons would be ludicrously easy to avoid at anything other than extreme close range and they don't appear to have relativistic projectile weapons.

Unless ships have some way to avoid being detected in the empty void of space, 'realistic' space combat would take place at a range of hundreds of thousands of kilometers (distance from just Earth to the Moon is almost 400,000 KM).

In the time it takes a dumb fire projectile to cross the distance of tens or hundreds of thousands of kilometers the target ship only has to alter its course to move it a couple kilometers to the side to avoid getting hit.

Unless you can launch a projectile at a considerable fraction of the speed of light you either have to use guided projectiles or close the distance so they don't have time to dodge. Since guided projectiles are explicitly ruled out, Gundam uses mobile suits to close the distance.

The only problem with that arguement is that to be able to dodge, you have to be able to see the projectile incoming. A high-velocity railgun slug would likely be non-trivial to detect.



I suspect, though, like virtually all giant robot shows, you just have to accept the excuse its really all down to "because it's a giant robot show" as the genera convention, and then thank them for at least trying to come up with a semi-plausible justification for it.



It's the same reason why you just accept it as a given that ranges in BattleTech are laughable terrible compared to even... Well, let's be honest, WW2 weapon ranges and BattleMechs are made of super-magic weighs-nothing alloys. (Modern AFVs are something about just over half the hull-length than a height of a BattleMech and often in the 50-60 tons region. 'Mechs should probably be about double the weight BT gives them, if not more.) But you just ignore that (and the total bias against other vehicles and infantry that doesn't stand up, really, against logical scruteny), because at the end of the day, it's about a lot of giant robots shooting each other. Which is cool.

(Though obviously, this also means rather subjective where you draw the line of "cool;" I like BattleTech, but a lot of the anime giant robots - including, likely with some irony, the anime where BT liscened some of its designs, I don't get on with so much. (This is not to say I dislike them completely or anything; Martian Successor Nadesico is still one of my favourite animes). I narrowed it down to in anime, a lot of the time, the giant robots act like giant infantry, whereas in BT, they tend to act more like giant vehicles, if that makes sense. BT in particular also has the nuts-and-bolts, WW1/WW2 "it's about the tech" sort of attiude, whereas anime giant robots tends to be more about the pilots. (Disclaimer - these statements also should not be read as anything like definitive, as I could not possibly claim to have watched an extensive amount of mecha animes; I'm just going from what few bits I have watched.) Conversely, 40K, where has even gianter robots I get on with even less well.)

[Gnoman]

The Battletech developers have outright stated that the ranges have been reduced for playability. This is a retcon, but not a terrible one.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Oh, another thing I forgot to mention was that later on in the series you have Minovsky-particle-lattice based deflector shields, which are quite effective at blunting the usefulness of the direct-fire particle-beam weapons that had become the standard for ship-to-ship combat by then. Hence, it becomes more important for a mobile suit be able to get in close and use armor-piercing melee weapons from inside the shields. They're only really stuck on Super Prototype Bullcrap in Mobile Suit Gundam, but they become reasonably semicommon in sequels, to the point where it's often a tactical choice to employ a beam weapon or a more old-fashioned but potentially more useful high explosive shell, even though you can't really guide either remotely.

[Rodin]

The only problem with that arguement is that to be able to dodge, you have to be able to see the projectile incoming. A high-velocity railgun slug would likely be non-trivial to detect.

Detection isn't really necessary I'd say. All you have to do is move randomly in space, changing trajectories and speeds regularly. Because the distances are so great, the actual chances of a ship occupying the same space as a railgun slug would be infinitesimal. When any target you fire at can move multiple kilometers in any direction and you're aiming several minutes in advance of your target, the cube of possible space for your target to occupy is massive.

[deuterio12]

In the recent Gundam Iron Orphans

Spoiler

Show

the protagonists end up being butchered when their opponents just bring a lot of super railguns that can shoot everything down from a safe distance.

A lot of UC Gundam military strategy is based on "it worked early on in the One Year War and now we're wrapped up in a permanent arms race based around who can make the dankest humanoid robot, especially since for some reason most MSes are produced by one super-company who sells to both sides after the original war and has ludicrously disproportionate political-economic power."

This is a very good point, and eventually leads to G Gundam "The gundam with the best pilot always wins the war, so no reason to bother with anything else, whoever has the pimpest gundam gets to rule everybody."

Also notice that by the time of Crossbone Gundam the federation is still using the space spheres that they were using on the One Year war, just with bigger guns, so yeah "worked before, will work now" mentality.

[Excession]

Detection isn't really necessary I'd say. All you have to do is move randomly in space, changing trajectories and speeds regularly. Because the distances are so great, the actual chances of a ship occupying the same space as a railgun slug would be infinitesimal. When any target you fire at can move multiple kilometers in any direction and you're aiming several minutes in advance of your target, the cube of possible space for your target to occupy is massive.

Moving constantly requires fuel. Realistic space warfare tends to come down to whoever has the most fuel, and lowest weight, wins. You dodge until you can't, and then you die. And planets can't dodge.

Also, I don't know if firing slugs is ever worth it. A few sensors and a bomb can turn a near miss into nuclear powered tungsten surprise.

[Dragonus45]

IBO is best gundam in the last decade.

[deuterio12]

You probably want to spoil that bit about IBO, its kind of a big spoiler.

Done. Now you just need to spoiler my quote.

[HolyDraconus]

Can I toss an armored core into this fray? One that has maxed HUMAN-Plus and the "super" armored cores that retained speed and had ultimate weapons?

[Bohandas]

Because dumb fire weapons would be ludicrously easy to avoid at anything other than extreme close range and they don't appear to have relativistic projectile weapons.

Unless ships have some way to avoid being detected in the empty void of space, 'realistic' space combat would take place at a range of hundreds of thousands of kilometers (distance from just Earth to the Moon is almost 400,000 KM).

Couldn't they just close distance?

[factotum]

Couldn't they just close distance?

Er, yes, which is why he says this later in the same post:

"Unless you can launch a projectile at a considerable fraction of the speed of light you either have to use guided projectiles or close the distance so they don't have time to dodge. Since guided projectiles are explicitly ruled out, Gundam uses mobile suits to close the distance."

[Brother Oni]

Couldn't they just close distance?

What sort of distances were you thinking about?

Simplifying the model for the sake of discussion, if a ship was a sphere of radius of 150m and it had a delta V of 5 m/s, it will have moved out of the way of the incoming dumbfire rocket within 30 seconds.

Suppose you had a rocket with a delta V of 300 m/s, it would have to be fired within 9 km else it would miss. In space, with no cover or air to slow down projectiles, the point defence 30mm vulcan guns on the MS carriers would be more effective at that distance (modern day versions have a muzzle velocity of 805 m/s, so would hit that ship out at 24km), let alone the theoretical 75 mm vulcans carried by the Gundam universe escort ships.

[lunaticfringe]

MS-07B-3 Gouf Custom. I can't really get into a lot of gundam shows, don't get me started on Wing. I liked the original MS show & 08, though I haven't watched any in a long time. I like the Gouf because in a game I played based off MS Gouf's tore **** to ribbons. It was my favorite suit to use. The custom is a straight upgrade over the original. Probably get messed up by all the crazy shonen escalation planet killing stuff out there but o well.

[Kato]

MS-07B-3 Gouf Custom. I can't really get into a lot of gundam shows, don't get me started on Wing. I liked the original MS show & 08, though I haven't watched any in a long time. I like the Gouf because in a game I played based off MS Gouf's tore **** to ribbons. It was my favorite suit to use. The custom is a straight upgrade over the original. Probably get messed up by all the crazy shonen escalation planet killing stuff out there but o well.

... "that's no zaku, boy, no zaku..."
I wish there were more good Gundam games out. I played Gundam warriors or what it was called and it was fun enough but it got monotonous rather fast sadly..

[Berserk Mecha]

If I recall correctly, most beam weaponry in Gundam fires plasma, although I think this differs depending on the series. Supposedly, the reason that Federation beam weapons are pink and Zeon beam weapons are yellow is because they use different elements as ammunition. Plasma quickly dissipates because the charged particles repel each other. (I think this is technically called 'blooming'.) This means that the range of a beam weapon is limited before penetrating power turns to stopping power and then eventually turns to nothing. Think of a weapon that is like a sniper rifle at close range, but a shotgun at long range.

Mobile suits with beam weapons need to get in close enough to where their weapons' ranges are effective. (Solid projectiles don't have this problem, but they lack the punch that beam weapons have.) MS are also quite nimble in space. But at effective range, it usually doesn't take long for an enemy mobile suit to close the distance and surprise an enemy. Hence, the reason that melee combat is so common.

[Anonymouswizard]

Honestly, I assumed colour coding was for audience convenience. Like how from what I've watched of the original Gundam I view Mobile Suits as things designed to operate both in free fall and gravity/psuedogravity.

Honestly, my main problem with gundams is the size. I like big robots, but Gundams come off as much too massive for my tastes (which are more along the lines of 'tops out at ~10m). The actual justification for Mobile suits is weird and doesn't really work, but if I think of Mecha as powered armour scaled up to 'can act as a space fighter' I can suspend my disbelief. Then again I'm not blameless in science fiction impracticalities, having too many spheres running around in my latest setting and having most surface to orbit vehicles launch via railgun.

The main problem with MS is that there's little reason for anything besides the torso with weapons mounted on it. Sure, switching weapons is easier, but I don't remember most mechs really doing that a lot during missions.

[Amaril]

Honestly, I assumed colour coding was for audience convenience. Like how from what I've watched of the original Gundam I view Mobile Suits as things designed to operate both in free fall and gravity/psuedogravity.

Honestly, my main problem with gundams is the size. I like big robots, but Gundams come off as much too massive for my tastes (which are more along the lines of 'tops out at ~10m). The actual justification for Mobile suits is weird and doesn't really work, but if I think of Mecha as powered armour scaled up to 'can act as a space fighter' I can suspend my disbelief. Then again I'm not blameless in science fiction impracticalities, having too many spheres running around in my latest setting and having most surface to orbit vehicles launch via railgun.

The main problem with MS is that there's little reason for anything besides the torso with weapons mounted on it. Sure, switching weapons is easier, but I don't remember most mechs really doing that a lot during missions.

Agreed on the size. 30 feet is a good upper limit, far as I'm concerned. Gives them a niche above power armor but below tanks in ground combat.

Far as the shape, my go-to justification is neural controls. Interface is more efficient if the thing is shaped like a human body.

[Snowbluff]

I mean, late in the original series, it's worked out how to do remote, indirect-fire drones again by using telepathy as a communications medium (some people are telepathic because Space). There's not actually any reason to not put this system on a battleship, as doing so would afford significantly more protection to the most limited resource in this weapons system (psychic people), people just don't, because all the expectations and strategies have moved to mobile suit-based combat at that point due to the escalating arms race. (There are a few battleship or battleship-sized chassis for psychic remote weapons in other series, but they're fairly distant sequels or spinoffs that use the same setting assumptions - the most immediate development of this technology is attaching it to bigger mobile suits, for some reason).

To be fair:
1) Some mobile armors equipped with psycom are the size of battleships (if not spaceborne ones, surface ones). The older psycom are massive, simply because the computing is very primitive. Later developments miniaturize it, and then the psychoframe was developed, which took up hardly any space at all, allowing mobile suits with funnels to be made.
2) The federation is suppressing the technology to hide newtypes in order to maintain their rules.

If I recall correctly, most beam weaponry in Gundam fires plasma, although I think this differs depending on the series. Supposedly, the reason that Federation beam weapons are pink and Zeon beam weapons are yellow is because they use different elements as ammunition. Plasma quickly dissipates because the charged particles repel each other. (I think this is technically called 'blooming'.) This means that the range of a beam weapon is limited before penetrating power turns to stopping power and then eventually turns to nothing. Think of a weapon that is like a sniper rifle at close range, but a shotgun at long range.

Mobile suits with beam weapons need to get in close enough to where their weapons' ranges are effective. (Solid projectiles don't have this problem, but they lack the punch that beam weapons have.) MS are also quite nimble in space. But at effective range, it usually doesn't take long for an enemy mobile suit to close the distance and surprise an enemy. Hence, the reason that melee combat is so common.

The weapons fire Minovsky particles. Minvosky particles can be negatively or positively charged, and the beams have been shown to be coherent for very long ranges. I'm guessing blooming is a relatively small issue, as the beam will both repel and attract itself.

EDIT: Actually, apparently Minovsky particles are "degenerated" by fusing a + and - to make a neutral particle, kind of like how Neutrons are really electrons and protons in a trench coat.

[Nerd-o-rama]

EDIT: Actually, apparently Minovsky particles are "degenerated" by fusing a + and - to make a neutral particle, kind of like how Neutrons are really electrons and protons in a trench coat.

tl;dr no one at Sunrise ever actually studied particle physics just go with it.