Reflecting on Prophecy

[Fish]

So everyone is talking about Odin and whether he was senile or brilliant in creating a self-fulfilling prophecy that got Durkon kicked out of his homeland, and into the exact situation where he seemingly needed to be. Nth-dimensional Zen master chess, or lucky blundering accident?

Let's go back to the Oracle for a minute. The Oracle gave everybody a glimpse of their futures. In many ways, each of the prophecies was a monkey's paw: giving each person exactly what they wanted, in exactly the way that would poke at their deepest, weakest insecurity. And as it turns out, each of the prophecies revolved around the moment of each person's greatest moment of growth.

Roy's early story was dominated by his father: meeting expectations, obeying orders, following in his footsteps, and so on. Roy didn't get the tactical advantage he wanted; instead, he died. However, this was a blessing in disguise, because he got to confront his father. After Azure City, Roy is a new man, having put his father issues behind him.

Haley's prophecy spoke to her inability to trust; and she trusted the wrong man, Nale. Vaarsuvius's was about the dangers and pitfalls of raw power, the price for which he is still paying. Belkar's was about his refusal to play nice; he got what he wanted, to kill the Oracle, but at a price of his own. Elan's was about his childlike fixation on closure, resolution and happy endings; he got what he wanted only at the moment he realized it was wrong. And Durkon was about his exile, which still rankled after all those years; a return home was what he wanted most, but he got it in the worst way.

Haley learned trust. Vaarsuvius learned moderation. Belkar learned teamwork. Elan gave up on happy endings when he broke out of the illusion and especially when he let his narrative-obsessed father go. We will see what Durkon learns.

So if we are looking at Odin's prophecy as a nth-dimension Zen master chess move to place Durkon exactly where he needed to be in order to assist in saving the world... aren't all the prophecies more or less fulfilling that function? (All except Roy's, perhaps, but he happened pretty early.) Is the Oracle merely telling us how it would happen, or is it helping to bring those outcomes about?

Did Tiamat give the Oracle just the right prophecy to turn the Order into a super-team capable of defeating Xykon? If so, what does that say about the IFCC, if anything?

[goodpeople25]

Odin's prophecy was his own doing (well so far, there could always be a twist) and definitely seems like it was intended to put these events in motion but the Oracle answers questions that are asked and paid for by the recipients and I think there is more room for other possibilities when it comes to his prophecies. (Tiamat for instance, I don't think we know exactly how intertwined she is with the prophecies)

While I applaud the insights you put forth on the characters of the order they are the ones asking the questions so I don't find it at all surprising that their questions and the corresponding answers and results mostly went straight to their cores and brought change. Also I'm not sure how many of the prophecies actually affected change by their hearing and didn't just showcase the characters. (Belkar's and Haley's most likely did imo, but I don't see a strong case for the others)

[SilverCacaobean]

I'm not sure Roy has put his daddy issues behind him, judging by this. The way I see it, the progress he has made in this matter is as much as Haley made here concerning her trust issues. I don't really think Elan's prophecy has been fulfilled (Maybe I'm wrong, but it looks more like an assurance to the readers, that the Giant won't pull some twist near the end where Xykon wins), but you make a very good point and it's true he learned that there are more important things than "happy endings".

Anyway, I agree with goodpeople25 (If I understood what they meant correctly) that since the Order were the ones asking the questions, the questions showcased their characters and their weaknesses. I think most prophecies were just a small part of character development, not the cause of it.

For example Elan and V would have been in the exact same situation prophecy or no prophecy, as would Durkon who would have still sacrificed himself (only without having his last words be "I get ta go home."). So these three are foreshadowing. Roy, with his highly practical plot moving prophecy, outsmarted himself but if he hadn't I don't see why he would have fought and died differently in the battle. So for these four, it's more important what they asked, than what they got. For Belkar, I can claim with less certainty that he might have eventually triggered the mark of justice, so I suppose that for him and Haley the prophecies did play a major role in their character development. But for both of them it's true that they themselves asked these questions. There's also the matter of choice. Haley made a choice to trust to regain her voice and Belkar made a choice to be disruptive again, which means they kind of decided when and how the prophecy would get fulfilled, so they still had agency.

I said all that because it doesn't look like Tiamat was manipulating them, this just is who they were at that point even though they've changed now. The possibility that Tiamat is an Nth-dimensional Zen chessmaster is of course still there, for all we know she could have known exactly how the order would react (which she probably didn't if we take into account what V did and how she reacted), but it's worth pointing out that the way Odin did things, Durkon had no say in what happened.

It's also important that Odin revealed that prophecy to his high priest on his own initiative which means he cared about it. If we assume that Tiamat and Odin can just see whatever they want when it comes to the future, there's still the matter of them having limited time to do so. So they can't just see everything. So would Tiamat have any reason to look into the future of some northerners? As far as she was concerned, when she gave those prophesies to the order they were ragtag group of misfits #13. She hasn't shown any indication of caring about the order and just imagine how much work she would have if she checked the background and future of everyone who came there asking for a prophecy. The other thing is that since she's made it a business to exchange prophecies for money, she'll have even less time(if at all) to look for things she cares about than Odin, who presumably uses his gift to plan ahead. The fact that she didn't even see the genocide of the black dragons coming supports that theory. Hel, she probably makes so many prophecies thanks to the Oracle that the important bits get lost in too much information. The other thing we don't know is if Tiamat can actually see the future, or has just somehow given the Oracle that ability.


All that said, it's not all unreasonable that she thought to look if in the future her existence would be threatened. It's actually very likely that's why she didn't help Xykon (don't remember the strip but the Oracle didn't help him). But I don't think she would help the order stop Xykon, she'd just be ready to unmake the world if Xykon got close to the snarl. I don't really see the prophecies she gave helping the order become a super-team.

[georgie_leech]

I think there should be a distinction between "this led to growth" and "the characters grew." I mean, Roy's answer was a literal binary choice between the two options given. That's not N-dimensional chess to set up vrowth, that's a character growing after experiencing things. Within the context of the world or story, do you really think Roy would remain static if the Oracle successfully got Roy to include Soon's gate in his question?

Besides, Blackwing achieved his goals and growth without the Ginkgo Biloba

[snowblizz]

Elan's was about his childlike fixation on closure, resolution and happy endings; he got what he wanted only at the moment he realized it was wrong.

Elan gave up on happy endings when he broke out of the illusion and especially when he let his narrative-obsessed father go.

Actually Elan's growth is in part about not seeing everything as a story, and realising that sticking to storyconventions get people hurt.

Both Tarquin and Julio drove home that lesson by example of their actions. Especially I feel Julio proving how even someone not-evil Elan could look up (he claims him as a good father figure after all) to could take story too far as guiding principle when he realised the effects it had on himself, and how following in the footsteps of his two father figures may have and would have affected others. There's a poignant scene on the airship when Julio lets slip he knew who Elan was but didn't get involved because it was Elan's story. That's where Elan makes a connection about the potential evils of story above and beyond his father's actions.

The happy ending remember is not just about Elan, it's also for us readers as a snuggly blanket for when the story gets scary.

Elan hasn't given up on a happy ending, as much as he has realised, bard training notwithstanding that stories arne't jsut stories they ahve real people getting really hurt in them.

[Jasdoif]

Besides, Blackwing achieved his goals and growth without the Ginkgo Biloba

Really? I don't remember the ginkgo biloba not being involved.