Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground LXXXIX

[jdizzlean]

jdizzlean, I do hope you cook. I enjoyed the spirit (pun intended) you displayed with horace and would love to see you get a crack at medaling. best of luck to you.

I am cooking right now. the first hurdle is whether the race i chose is legal, if not, there is a way around that, it's just a reorganizing of a few things. Thanks to a few people on here, i figured out the block i had to my build, it's just a matter of building it now.

I was actually awake for about an hour last night just thinking about backstory...

[Deadline]

I've been out of the competition for a while, and don't think I've got the time to do much this round either (which is a shame, I loved the Thrall of Orcus round), but wanted to add my two cents with regards to judging. As has already been mentioned, every judge will do it slightly differently, with their own take on the criteria, so there isn't some magic solution that scores full marks from every judge. For my part, I consider multiclass xp penalties as part of the Elegance category. For Originality, if it's something that caught me by surprise (which is pretty subjective, I admit), you get a higher score. If you made a character that looks remarkably similar to the sample character for the PrC, then you can very much expect a lower score. Also, if you took an obvious entry, you might see a hit in Originality there. I think the only other thing I've tweaked over the various rounds that I've judged are feats and class powers turning off when you don't have a sufficient prerequisites to use them (I use the Complete Warrior take on that, and no, Dragon Disciples don't self-disqualify), and my various interpretations on what constitutes "using" the SI.

The best advice I ever got from the other chefs here is to build something that you like, make it interesting, and present it well. Also, don't take it too seriously, because this is just a silly internet contest after all.

[Darrin]

Speaking of people having the same race, about the originality score: do you get docked points only for using material common to previous competitions, or could you also get deducted for using material everyone else in the same competition is using?

I don't penalize anyone for using a race that was popular in previous rounds, and I don't think we currently have any judges who do that. However, one thing you may want to watch out for is if an obscure or unusual race has been used quite a bit in previous rounds, then it's less likely to surprise the judge just because it may still be fresh in their mind.

I also try hard to avoid penalizing someone for using a race or entry method that was simultaneously chosen by another contestant. Since the submission is "blind", I'm not going to penalize you for having the same brilliant idea as another contestant. We can assume that you both arrived at that brilliant idea independently, and if it's a cool idea then it should be rewarded regardless of whether someone else thought of it.

[Zaq]

The only time I've personally given someone a penalty in Originality directly based off of previous rounds is for seeing yet another race-locked SI being entered by a changeling with Racial Emulation who dipped Changeling Rogue 1 at first level, because it feels like that always freaking happens.

I mean, I get it. Changeling Rogue 1 is one of the most interesting and character-defining single levels in the game, and it gives you an extraordinarily solid foundation to build a face character off of. I wouldn't be surprised if I end up doing it myself someday. It's a genuinely great strategy. And using Racial Emulation certainly feels like a way to stand out from the pack when the SI expects you to be a race that isn't a changeling. But when I handed out that penalty, we'd had a LOT of characters that looked like that over the last few rounds, and I was sick of it.

That said, one, I'm not judging this round, and two, this isn't a race-locked SI, so folks aren't going to need to differentiate themselves from, for example, all the other dwarves that everyone else is assumed to be using. So what I'm talking about right now isn't likely to be directly relevant.

Again, every judge is different, and there isn't a checklist-style formula of Always Do This and Never Do That that you can use to make every possible judge happy. As I kind of indicated earlier, one of the best things you can do for your score (though again, this isn't foolproof) is to indicate very clearly why you made the choices that you made and to indicate what benefit your characters gains from them.

Remember, you've spent hours or days creating your build entry, so you know it inside and out, but the judges haven't. They're hit with a large number of extremely information-dense entries all at once, and they haven't lovingly hand-crafted those entries from the ground up, so the clearer you make your strategy, the less likely it is that the judges will miss something you don't want them to miss. Judges who are confused are less likely to score you well than judges who understand what you're doing and why you're doing it.

[Thurbane]

If and when I judge, 1 level Lion Totem Barbarian dips for Pounce may get an originality/elegance hit, if the Barbarian level doesn't otherwise "fit" with the character.

I get that in optimization circles it's more-or-less mandatory for melee types, but it doesn't mean I have to like it.

[Zaq]

If and when I judge, 1 level Lion Totem Barbarian dips for Pounce may get an originality/elegance hit, if the Barbarian level doesn't otherwise "fit" with the character.

I get that in optimization circles it's more-or-less mandatory for melee types, but it doesn't mean I have to like it.

That's 100% your prerogative. In contrast, I'm not judging this round, but if I were judging a melee build that obviously had room for a Pouncebarian dip (say, there were several pre-SI levels that were obviously taken just for BAB and not so much for specific features) and cared about charging but that ended up either ignoring the option or investing significantly more resources into solving the problem than would have been invested by just taking Pouncebarian, I could see room for an Elegance or Power hit.

The takeaway from this that I hope we're all getting is that you will not and cannot please every judge in the same way. Don't expect to, and don't even necessarily try to. Do try to make the best build possible, using whatever metric of "best" you happen to like, and it'll all work out in the end. Blatant attempts to either grab points or to conspicuously avoid losing points tend to end up biting you in other ways.

[jdizzlean]

I loved the Thrall of Orcus round),

i went back and read the entries for that, it was before my time.

This is epic on any scale.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...&postcount=279

[Thurbane]

Cooking Time: Contestants will have until 07:59 GMT on Tuesday, October 3rd, 2017 to create their builds and PM them to the Chairwoman, Heliomance.

So just to be 100% clear, we still have almost 2 weeks to submit our entries, right?

[Venger]

So just to be 100% clear, we still have almost 2 weeks to submit our entries, right?

Yes, because heliomance is busy camping all week this week so isn't around to answer any questions and presumably didn't want to deal with all that in just one week.

I'm actually already done with my dish. it's very refreshing. so now I have longer to obsess about whether I missed anything.

[Thurbane]

Yes, because heliomance is busy camping all week this week so isn't around to answer any questions and presumably didn't want to deal with all that in just one week.

Works for me, I'm still furiously trying to finish off me entry for the current Villainous Competition.

[Heliomance]

Yes, because heliomance is busy camping all week this week so isn't around to answer any questions and presumably didn't want to deal with all that in just one week.

I'm actually already done with my dish. it's very refreshing. so now I have longer to obsess about whether I missed anything.

Actually it was just the weekend, I'm back now. Yes, you still have two weeks. I generally give two weeks from the Tuesday following whenever the new thread goes up. If it goes up on Tuesday you get two weeks exactly, if it goes up on Wednesday you miiight get unlucky and only have 13 days, if it goes up any later than that then you get the extra time. This one went up on Thursday which is basically the best case scenario for cooking time.

[Venger]

Glad to see you're back. Have you reached a decision on the outstanding questions on the class's su abilities?

[jdizzlean]

I'm actually already done with my dish. it's very refreshing. so now I have longer to obsess about whether I missed anything.

Ditto, I could keep reviewing it, but my eyes are bleeding from looking at numbers for the last three days :)

[Amphetryon]

Can we talk about the Two Personas "benefit" as presented in BoVD? I mean, PrCs are already exempt from the Multiclass Penalty rules, so how is this supposed to be applied? Is it a retroactively applied XP boost? Does it only apply for Base Classes taken after acquiring the Two Personas ability?

[WhamBamSam]

Can we talk about the Two Personas "benefit" as presented in BoVD? I mean, PrCs are already exempt from the Multiclass Penalty rules, so how is this supposed to be applied? Is it a retroactively applied XP boost? Does it only apply for Base Classes taken after acquiring the Two Personas ability?

I'd assume the latter. Applying it retroactively is generally not how things work and kind of a headache in this case.

[Amphetryon]

I'd assume the latter. Applying it retroactively is generally not how things work and kind of a headache in this case.

As would I... But that appears to make it essentially a non-ability, since most late-game builds benefit more from some type of PrC than from a late add-on Base Class.

[Zaq]

As would I... But that appears to make it essentially a non-ability, since most late-game builds benefit more from some type of PrC than from a late add-on Base Class.

I mean, I hate to be unnecessarily snarky (okay, that's often a lie), but are you REALLY shocked that the SI (any SI, really) grants a weird ability that's basically impossible to use at the level it appears and yet treats it like it's some grand prize? Especially when the words "favored class" appear anywhere within a four-page radius? I'm surprised they didn't try to find a way to make it 1/day.

[WhamBamSam]

As would I... But that appears to make it essentially a non-ability, since most late-game builds benefit more from some type of PrC than from a late add-on Base Class.

I don't want to speculate too much as to how I would expect the ability to be used, but it's not going to count for more than a quarter point anyway, and it's possible to get a 5 in UoSI under my criteria without using absolutely every feature if you use the other ones especially well.

Speaking of, here are my judging criteria.

Originality

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Start from a baseline score of 3.

Up to 1 point of bonus or penalty based on whether the classes and such you used were things I expected and whether they were used by other entrants. Known cheese or standard handbook fare will see a deduction here (though I don't penalize Human or similar default race choices). Note that I don't reward "shameless originality grabs." If you use something that's unique or unusual for its own sake (rather than because it actually does something relevant for your build), you won't get points for it.

Up to 1 point of bonus or penalty to a build doing something interesting or something we've all seen it before respectively. You can fill a common niche without incurring my wrath, but I'd like to see a new spin on it. Cool factor in your crunch may see a bonus here.

A 0.25 point bonus if I find your fluff to be particularly excellent.

Power

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Start from a baseline score of 3

Up to 0.75 point of bonus or penalty based on how beneficial or harmful the SI is to your build. A 0 is a hypothetical build which isn't especially helped or hindered by having Astral Dancer in it (though given the specialized nature of the SI, that seems unlikely).

Up to 1.25 points of bonus or penalty for how well you do the things that you do. For example, if you're a front line fighter, how good are you at hurting things? If you're a caster, do you lose a lot of caster levels? Are your tricks easy to shut down and can you function if you can't go with your usual MO?

Elegance

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Start from a baseline score of 4.

Each failure to qualify for a non-SI class or feat results in a 0.5 point deduction.

Up to a 0.5 point deduction for questionable rules interpretations and for any cheese stinky enough to make it onto my personal ban list (note that I'm pretty cheese tolerant, in general).

Up to 1 point of bonus or penalty based on the overall flow of the build and how well everything fits together. A clean, flowing progression will score more points, whereas something that feels awkward may be penalized. As with cheese, I'm not going to try to be especially punitive toward dipping, unless you're really asking for it. Note that I try not to reward "shameless elegance grabs" any moreso than I will "shameless originality grabs." For example, I may consider 2/3/5/10 more elegant than 5/5/10 depending on circumstances. Almost everyone gets +0.5 here. The last build that I'm certain I'd have given the full +1 was over 3 years ago.

I'll assign a 0.25 point penalty for incurring multiclass penalties that can't be easily resolved by rearranging levels. They're a stupid, stupid rule, but they are a rule and one of the SI features references them.

Up to 0.5 points of bonus or penalty if the build just screams classy or is especially distasteful in a way not quantified by the above.

Use of Secret Ingredient

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Start From a Baseline Score of 1.

Good uses of the collective prereqs, Touch of Fear, Scaly Flesh, and Twin Personas are worth 0.25 points of bonus apiece.

Good uses of Bonus Feats or Spells, Hypnosis, Reaching Touch, Dual Actions, Summon Demon, Rotting Touch, Death Touch, and Demogorgon's Will are worth up to 0.75 points apiece in increments of 0.25. Note that a 0.75 in a given category indicates going above and beyond expectations with an exceptionally clever or powerful use of an ability and even a 0.5 indicates an impressive application of the feature beyond what any old build could pull off. There are a lot of features here, so I'm going to be trying to grade somewhat hard to avoid an overabundance of 5s.

Failure to qualify for the SI will result in a -0.25 point penalty to each class ability, to a minimum of 0. So abilities that you neither use nor qualify for don't hurt you, but you need to qualify for the things you do use to get fully rewarded for them.

If you leave the SI early, but provide a convincing explanation as to why this is a better use of the secret ingredient (better use of the ingredient, mind, not just making your build better), then you will receive partial credit for abilities you miss (+0.25 each).

[The Viscount]

As would I... But that appears to make it essentially a non-ability, since most late-game builds benefit more from some type of PrC than from a late add-on Base Class.

You are correct, sir. Such is our lot.

[PrismCat21]

Can we talk about the Two Personas "benefit" as presented in BoVD?

To me it seems pretty straight forward.
You no longer apply multiclass penalties when you gain experience points.
Worst case scenario, no new base class levels would apply penalties. The way I see it, you no longer gain penalties for any multiclassing you have done at any point in your career. Penalties applied before they point still count.

[Amphetryon]

I mean, I hate to be unnecessarily snarky (okay, that's often a lie), but are you REALLY shocked that the SI (any SI, really) grants a weird ability that's basically impossible to use at the level it appears and yet treats it like it's some grand prize? Especially when the words "favored class" appear anywhere within a four-page radius? I'm surprised they didn't try to find a way to make it 1/day.

Given that this "ability" is apparently less useful than the Dwarven Chanter's Timing Chant ability? Yup, I'm a little surprised. Frankly, it reads to me as if Monte (or whoever contributed this particular PrC to the book) forgot that PrCs don't count against Multiclassing Penalties when he wrote the ability, and never corrected this slip of memory,

[Venger]

Given that this "ability" is apparently less useful than the Dwarven Chanter's Timing Chant ability? Yup, I'm a little surprised. Frankly, it reads to me as if Monte (or whoever contributed this particular PrC to the book) forgot that PrCs don't count against Multiclassing Penalties when he wrote the ability, and never corrected this slip of memory,

Monte is the only person credited with writing anything in BoVD, so everything wrong with it is his fault. Given the other mistakes in the book (pincer claws, anyone?) it's hardly difficult to believe that he forgot this.

[Zaq]

I have the build table done. I still need to do the write-up, but at least the build itself seems solid.

I have an idea for a second entry, which is rare for me. The problem is that said second entry is basically being pulled in two contradictory directions (each of which would be funny in its own distinct way), and I'm not sure which is funnier. No promises that I'll be able to concoct a workable second build in the time allotted, though I'll definitely tell you all about it when the time comes if I don't get it together in time. One build at a time, though. (Okay, that's a lie. That's a total lie. I'm totally devoting brainspace to the second build while still working on the first one. But so it goes.)

[jdizzlean]

I have an idea for a second entry, which is rare for me.

damn you, now i'm thinking of a possible 2nd...

the first idea just got shot down in a fiery death...we'll see

[Heliomance]

So, belatedly, Supernatural abilities.

By the rules, both Su abilities should be standard actions. The intent is quite clearly for them to be non actions, though, as anything else rather limits their use. I'm fine with treating them as non actions, but I'll note that anyone that manages to make them useful as standard actions probably deserves extra credit.

[Darrin]

I'm fine with treating them as non actions, but I'll note that anyone that manages to make them useful as standard actions probably deserves extra credit.

Thank you. Do you want to address the minor changes made in the Dragon #357 article? Or would you rather just stick to the BoVD text with the exception of "Intuit Direction is now Survival"?

[Heliomance]

Thank you. Do you want to address the minor changes made in the Dragon #357 article? Or would you rather just stick to the BoVD text with the exception of "Intuit Direction is now Survival"?

Given that I've taken so long to respond to rules queries and I have three entries in my inbox already, I'm going to say that using or not using the Dragon updates is up to the individual chefs, and either is fine, so long as they're consistent - if you use any of the Dragon updates, you need to use all of them. Intuit Direction is now Survival.

[Zaq]

Hey Heliomance, your PM box is full.

[Heliomance]

Aye, just noticed that myself. Fixed now.

[Thurbane]

My entry is coming along nicely, and should be well and truly ready before the deadline.

I've had a bit of a change-of-plan with the fluff, but the crunch is pretty much nailed down.