New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 61 to 90 of 119
  1. - Top - End - #61
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Ravens_cry's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2008

    Default Re: How do you feel about gaining HP with level?

    Well, it really depends on the tone of the game.
    By default, D&D 3.P works quite well with HP scaling, as it and games like it are basically Hero's Journey: Tabletop Edition. You start out the suck and face stronger and more powerful foes as you yourself get stronger, until you are a far cry from, say, the farmer girl who could do certain 'tricks' or the squire who could barely hit the broad side of a barn. With a sword. Having foes that once were a challenge become obstacles of time, not danger, if that, that fits D&D quite well, and HP increases help with that tone.
    Now, let's think about a different kind of tone, one where it isn't about a power fantasy of getting more mighty, but of survival in a hostile or, at best, apathetic universe.
    In that case, foes being a danger at any level makes more sense and minimal HP (or equivalent) make more sense.. You might learn more tricks to deal with them, new strategies to defeat them, but death and worse will come swiftly to the careless. It is using the tools at hand well, not brute application of force that will win the day.
    Quote Originally Posted by Calanon View Post
    Raven_Cry's comments often have the effects of a +5 Tome of Understanding

  2. - Top - End - #62
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How do you feel about gaining HP with level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pleh View Post
    On that note, I really like how Bethesda did leveling in Skyrim. You grow as a character for any interaction you live through, failures and successes. As you achieve milestones in your career, you grow in actual, measurable strength (whether strength of health, stamina, or magical aptitude), and you learn a new trick like a class feature, but which tricks you learn are limited by your skill and practice in that particular field.
    On the other hand, it also means that in order to do interesting things with skills like lockpick you need to spend hours picking every lock you find whether you want what's behind it or not.

  3. - Top - End - #63
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Max_Killjoy's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    The Lakes

    Default Re: How do you feel about gaining HP with level?

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    On the other hand, it also means that in order to do interesting things with skills like lockpick you need to spend hours picking every lock you find whether you want what's behind it or not.
    And that's an example of where the "sim" aspect becomes burdensome, IMO.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

    Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.

    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

    The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.

  4. - Top - End - #64
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How do you feel about gaining HP with level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastikator View Post
    You should want to advance the plot and grow your character within the setting, not grow it mechanically. The game mechanics based growth is a red herring.
    While a fair amount of people might agree with you, it would be foolish to assume that this realisation of yours is some sort of universal fact and that everyone's playing experience would be better if they accepted it.

    I for one enjoy working with the mechanics of the game, and growing my character mechanically is part of that. If I didn't truly enjoy the mechanical parts, I would've stuck to mechanic-less play-by-post role plays, which I've been doing for longer, and never started playing tabletop RPGs in the first place. There can be real thematic value in mechanical character growth, assuming the mechanics in place accommodate the growth you want to purvey. To discount that is to discount the greatest merits of tabletop RPGs, compared to free-form role plays.

  5. - Top - End - #65
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How do you feel about gaining HP with level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    And that's an example of where the "sim" aspect becomes burdensome, IMO.
    It certainly is if you don't have a reasonable replacement for it.

    In TT games you can just restrict skill development to downtime where the explicit assumption at the table is "you spend some time learning to do/get better at this". SWD6, for example, works like that.

  6. - Top - End - #66
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How do you feel about gaining HP with level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    So what does 10 points of damage represent, then?

    What does an attack that succeeds represent?
    Whatever the GM feels is plausible for them to represent.

    When talking about abstract Hit Points, we're at the root of why wargames and roleplaying games opted for a GM to begin with. Even if you restrict yourself to one kind of weapon versus one kind of opponent, there is a huge number of possible strikes and their effects. Simulating this with piety would rapidly get very complex and slow down play.

    Hence it is faster to use an abstract resource and then have a living human interprete the results.

    (Of course, even without a living human, Hit Points are useful simply because they are the second simplest way to measure injury, after "you get hit, you die". It's not an accident Hit Points became so ubiquitous in games after D&D introduced them. (Seriously. As far as I've been able to discern, hit points as we know them were invented by D&D and spread to other games, notably videogames, from there.) Many more complex and superficially more realistic injury systems in video games are just layered Hit Point systems.)

    However, for the same reason, arguments like "Hit Points are Plot Armor" (and counter-arguments based on how Plot Armor is bad) are fundamentally obtuse. Sure, you can use Hit Points that way. But you can just as well use it as measure of straight physical durability and calibrate the numbers untill they reflect what goes on in-universe. Or many other things or combination of things. Because the actual judgement is done after-the-fact by a GM and depending on how the GM opts to play it, the exact same mechanics can be used to convey radically different atmosphere. I can run realistic and magically realistic games with OSR rulesets which are completely devoid of trope logic. I could also run trope logic games, I just don't want to.

    ---

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    I mean that's not a particularly weird effect, and can in fact be exactly the effect the system is trying to produce, because it means combat can still be a challenge whilst letting people feel the growth at long as they still encounter "easy" enemies from a couple of levels ago from time to time.
    Let me explain more in depth, then:

    Imagine you're fighting a duel with swords. It doesn't last very long and ends with both parties injured. You and your opponent both agree on a rematch and retreat to train.

    When you next meet, the duel doesn't last very long and ends with both parties injured. Again you and your opponent retreat to train. Rinse and repeat.

    What I refer to as the "weird" part is that since both HP and damage scale equally, all successive duels are mechanically identical. The same dude with the same sword remains exactly as able to kill you. Even their Strength score might stay the same.

    Yet somehow, mundane fire stops or falling from great distances stops being a threat. It creates questions of what exactly damage is supposed to be - why is this guy who is not dramatically stronger than before so much more able to hurt you than hitting the ground is?

    Contrast with the situation where HP increases but damage doesn't. A guy with equally high HP is still equal match to you, but now the fight at later levels is mechanically distinct - it will take much longer. This way, the improvement is tangible even if overall chance of victory remains the same.

    There are, of course, ways to dodge the weird part which don't involve HP at all. Improved defenses, new modes of attack etc. can create the same effects as pertains to combat, while keeping your vulnerability to non-combat threats even.
    "It's the fate of all things under the sky,
    to grow old and wither and die."

  7. - Top - End - #67
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How do you feel about gaining HP with level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen_Feet View Post

    Let me explain more in depth, then:

    Imagine you're fighting a duel with swords. It doesn't last very long and ends with both parties injured. You and your opponent both agree on a rematch and retreat to train.

    When you next meet, the duel doesn't last very long and ends with both parties injured. Again you and your opponent retreat to train. Rinse and repeat.

    What I refer to as the "weird" part is that since both HP and damage scale equally, all successive duels are mechanically identical. The same dude with the same sword remains exactly as able to kill you. Even their Strength score might stay the same.
    Yeah, but a dude who's only as good as you were when you started is now a total chump who can't touch you. And as long as you as a player meet that sort of content as well the fact that your nemesis who has been training as long and hard as you have always manages to be an equal match when you meet isn't a problem.

  8. - Top - End - #68
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How do you feel about gaining HP with level?

    Ah, but you missed a thing:

    An equal match may remain an equal match even when HP increases but damage doesn't. The overall chance of victory can remain the same even when everything else changes.

    The weird part is a match between equals always looking the same mechanically because the numbers cancel out. This rarely improves verisimilitude, because usually contests between unskilled equals and highly skilled equals are different.

    Lower level characters are not important, because even if damage does not increase, the increase in HP means a higher level character will ve able to fight more of them, and for longer.
    "It's the fate of all things under the sky,
    to grow old and wither and die."

  9. - Top - End - #69
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Mid-Rohan
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How do you feel about gaining HP with level?

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    On the other hand, it also means that in order to do interesting things with skills like lockpick you need to spend hours picking every lock you find whether you want what's behind it or not.
    Actually, that reminds me of another thing I liked in that game: you can pay a trainer to teach you or read books. How much you can learn from education is limited, but it makes training in skills a resource to be sought like loot.

    But the problem you describe is more a problem of video games than table top. A video game can't just create new content for your character to practice with just because you want more locks to practice with. In a tabletop, you can just go to a blacksmith and buy a lock or manacles and practice with it over and over (get DM permission to train with diminishing returns).
    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    Some play RPG's like chess, some like charades.

    Everyone has their own jam.

  10. - Top - End - #70
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    oxybe's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2009

    Default Re: How do you feel about gaining HP with level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    I'm aware of all that, the same excuses for D&D Hit Points have been posted dozens of times before, here and elsewhere -- and it makes no difference to my thoughts on the matter.

    Plot Armor is a bad idea, a narrative contrivance. If D&D Hit Points are trying to emulate that bad idea, that doesn't make D&D Hit Points better, it just makes it a bad mechanic emulating a bad idea.

    But then, most tropes are less tools to be used... and more landmines to be avoided. (And then there are the tropes so generalized and broad as to be pointless. "OMG I've seen three characters who use magic and have white hair, the white haired magic user is totally a trope!")
    Good for you, you have thoughts. I might say that I largely disagree with them on a fundamental level, but you haven't actually brought up a point as to why they're bad though. You just said "they're bad" and that's it.

    I say they're good.

    "But Dragons!" -- the fallacy that any break from reality justifies all breaks from reality in a fictional setting. When you say "Is it realistic? No but if D&D were big on realism, we wouldn't have Bhaube the Elven Warmage:", that's pretty much "But Dragons!" stated as "But Elven Warmages!". Not all breaks from reality are created equal, and not all breaks from reality are fitting or consistent for any particular setting.

    D&D Hit Points, like the contrivance of plot armor they attempt to emulate in a fuzzy and badly abstract way, aren't even a "break from reality" of the same sort that a dragon or an elf would be. They're a game mechanic, not a setting element. Using one sort as a justification for the other sort doesn't fly. A game can have dragons and elves and warmages and magic lightning without trying to emulate bad narrative contrivances like plot armor. Plot armor, and D&D Hit Points, aren't bad because they're not realistic, they're bad because they don't feel like they could be real (see sig below).
    Yes all break are created equal because while they all hinge on the same currency, player buy in, the only difference is some players value one break more then another, but that's just up to personal taste and not due to any intrinsic value of the break itself: plot armour, HP or whatever, is a setting element, or at least one that describes the tone of the setting. Not as overt as "yes there are dragons", but D&D characters can survive things normal peasant folks cannot. It's one of the things that allow them to go and punch the verisimilitude out of the dragon where a peasant cannot. It's one of the reasons why the game focuses on them over Kevin the Blacksmith. Yes it's a setting element and the mechanics back it, so it has just as much intrinsic weight as the elves or dragon that populate the world.

    As for your sig, I read it and my conclusion was "I hate your imagination" or "my make believe is broked" or "I dislike other people's way of having fun". Verisimilitude is a laughable term used by people who can't or won't try to buy-in into a concept and needed a big word to justify it to themselves and toss their contempt at others who can buy in and enjoy the work in question. taste is subjective.

    How pretentious do you have to be to claim "It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead." and then toss what I find to be a perfectly viable suspension of disbelief under the bus and claim it to be the equivalent of fresh and still dangling corpse, and hide behind a big word that in the end means nothing in a subjective sense by it's very definition your quoted: "the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability" is entirely in the eye of the beholder.

    I would apologize that my choice of fiction gave you the feel bads, but I have nothing to apologize for. To paraphrase the dungeonmaster: I reject your verisimilitude and substitute my own.

    Now what?

  11. - Top - End - #71
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Max_Killjoy's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    The Lakes

    Default Re: How do you feel about gaining HP with level?

    What now... is that I'm relieved you have no role in worldbuilding anything I'll ever have to deal with. "All breaks from reality are equal" is how we end up with kitchen-sink mashup garbage that can't tell the difference between a coherent or an incoherent setting. It's how you end up with dragons in a gritty alternate history WW1 story... after all, if that one little piece of history changed, that's a "break from reality", and now it's time for dragons and magic and spaceships, because "they're all the same", right?

    Since that's where you evidently want this to go, with personal commentary rather than sticking to the facts.


    Oh well.

    Meanwhile, a few descriptions of Plot Armor, which is evidently according to that guy what D&D Hit Points are trying to emulate -- anyone who can get through these and not see Plot Armor as a total mess and something that should be avoided at all costs... well, not sure what to tell you after that.



    "When Bob is the lead protagonist of a work, his presence is essential to the plot. Accordingly, the rules of the world seem to bend around him. The very fact that he's the main character protects him from death, serious wounds, and generally all lasting harm (until the plot calls for it). Even psychological damage can be held at bay by Bob's suit of Plot Armor.

    Sometimes referred to as "Script Immunity" or a "Character Shield", Plot Armor is when a main character's life and health are safeguarded by the fact that he's the one person who can't be removed from the story. Therefore, whenever Bob is in a situation where he could be killed (or at the least very seriously injured), he comes out unharmed with no logical, In-Universe explanation.

    Bear in mind that having Plot Armor is not the same as being Nigh Invulnerable. When Superman takes a bullet to the eye and survives, that's his superhuman nature — there's an explanation, albeit a fantastic one, for how he comes out unharmed. When Indiana Jones survives the same thing, that's Plot Armor — the only explanation for his survival is that it's only halfway through the movie and you know he can't die yet. (Bonus points if he isn't even blinded.)

    The downside to all this, of course, is that when it is Bob's time to die, nothing can save him. And his inability to heal or escape death may seem just as illogical as his ability to avoid it was forty minutes ago. The plot gods giveth and the plot gods taketh away..."



    "Character shields (also known as plot armor or plot shield) are plot devices in films and television shows that prevent important characters from dying or being seriously injured at dramatically inconvenient moments. It often denotes a situation in which it strains credibility to believe that the character would survive"



    "The notion that some characters are too important to the plot to be discarded, and are therefore seen as not as vulnerable as other characters. The plot is their armour - they are needed to serve it."




    Emulating plot armor is emulating horrible writing.

    See also, "narrative causality" or "narrative contrivance".

    .
    Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2017-09-17 at 05:14 PM.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

    Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.

    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

    The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.

  12. - Top - End - #72
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Knaight's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2008

    Default Re: How do you feel about gaining HP with level?

    Quote Originally Posted by oxybe View Post
    Yes all break are created equal because while they all hinge on the same currency, player buy in, the only difference is some players value one break more then another, but that's just up to personal taste and not due to any intrinsic value of the break itself: plot armour, HP or whatever, is a setting element, or at least one that describes the tone of the setting. Not as overt as "yes there are dragons", but D&D characters can survive things normal peasant folks cannot. It's one of the things that allow them to go and punch the verisimilitude out of the dragon where a peasant cannot. It's one of the reasons why the game focuses on them over Kevin the Blacksmith. Yes it's a setting element and the mechanics back it, so it has just as much intrinsic weight as the elves or dragon that populate the world.
    They're not all equivalent though, and the idea that breaking from realism in one way means that breaking from realism in every way should just be assumed to be fine is ludicrous. To take a fairly extreme example, the existence of orcs is a break from realism. Does that mean it's a reasonable argument that a Kevin the Blacksmith should be able to make a plasma rifle in a medieval forge? No, and just about every GM and player will reject that immediately because it's both ridiculous and because it clashes with the rest of the aesthetic in a really blatant and dramatic fashion.
    I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.

    I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that.
    -- ChubbyRain

    Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.

  13. - Top - End - #73
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2015

    Default Re: How do you feel about gaining HP with level?

    I'm all right with it. Personally I view HP not as plot-armour, but as supernatural toughness. So yes a fighter can be set on fire, dumped off a cliff onto a spike only to pull themselves off it as the fire burns out. Because they are just that tough. On the other hand a wizard getting much in the way of bonus HP does not make a lot of sense. If a wizard gets stabbed, they should of wizarded harder because now they are bleeding on the floor.

    Of course, this is only in settings where superhuman toughness is a things. In sci-fi and modern games, I think other solutions are preferable, even if it is just a VP/WP split or something similar.

  14. - Top - End - #74
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Nifft's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How do you feel about gaining HP with level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen_Feet View Post
    The weird part is a match between equals always looking the same mechanically because the numbers cancel out. This rarely improves verisimilitude, because usually contests between unskilled equals and highly skilled equals are different.
    That's an interesting observation, and I think it's valid.

    If the game were using something like Tome of Battle, then contests would NOT look the same -- the Maneuvers are different at different levels, and higher-level maneuvers give better perks, and you have more of them at higher level.

    If the game were between wizards using standard D&D magic, then contests would NOT look the same -- the spells are different at different levels, and high-level spellcasting opens up many new capabilities.

    If the game were D&D 4e, then contests would NOT look the same -- powers are different at different levels, and higher-level powers often offer new or better capabilities.


    It's only some classes, and only in some systems, which suffer from a lack of capability improvement over levels.

  15. - Top - End - #75
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    JNAProductions's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Avatar By Astral Seal!

    Default Re: How do you feel about gaining HP with level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cluedrew View Post
    I'm all right with it. Personally I view HP not as plot-armour, but as supernatural toughness. So yes a fighter can be set on fire, dumped off a cliff onto a spike only to pull themselves off it as the fire burns out. Because they are just that tough. On the other hand a wizard getting much in the way of bonus HP does not make a lot of sense. If a wizard gets stabbed, they should of wizarded harder because now they are bleeding on the floor.

    Of course, this is only in settings where superhuman toughness is a things. In sci-fi and modern games, I think other solutions are preferable, even if it is just a VP/WP split or something similar.
    Alchemical reinforcement of bones and flesh.

    Magic wards built into the clothes, or even the flesh.

    Experiments on the self to improve one with spells.

    There are ways for Wizards to be "that tough" too.
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

    Spoiler: Former Avatars
    Show
    Spoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Linkele
    Show

    Spoiler: Individual Avatar Pics
    Show

  16. - Top - End - #76
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2015

    Default Re: How do you feel about gaining HP with level?

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Fighting Spirit is my attempt at making HP more sensible.
    I very much like the idea of Fight Points and Hit Points, and crits going straight to Hit Points: keeps the game nice and dangerous every fight.

    I think you'd want a similar set up for monsters though.

    I'd be tempted to go with something like HP = Con score. Amour provides some amount of damage reduction, so heavy armour PCs like warriors etc effecively end up with more HP). Then add the class based Fight Points. Short rests etc would restore FP but not HP.

    I dont think this would work too well with 5e above 10th because of HP and damage inflation, but certainly up to 10th I think it would be cool.
    Low Fantasy Gaming RPG - Free PDF at the link: https://lowfantasygaming.com/
    $1 Adventure Frameworks - RPG Mini Adventures: https://www.patreon.com/user?u=645444
    Midlands Low Magic Sandbox Setting - https://lowfantasygaming.com/2017/12...x-setting-pdf/
    GM Toolkits - Traps, Hirelings, Blackpowder, Mass Battle, 5e Hardmode, Olde World Loot http://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse/p...Fantasy-Gaming

  17. - Top - End - #77
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    JNAProductions's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Avatar By Astral Seal!

    Default Re: How do you feel about gaining HP with level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psikerlord View Post
    I very much like the idea of Fight Points and Hit Points, and crits going straight to Hit Points: keeps the game nice and dangerous every fight.

    I think you'd want a similar set up for monsters though.

    I'd be tempted to go with something like HP = Con score. Amour provides some amount of damage reduction, so heavy armour PCs like warriors etc effecively end up with more HP). Then add the class based Fight Points. Short rests etc would restore FP but not HP.

    I dont think this would work too well with 5e above 10th because of HP and damage inflation, but certainly up to 10th I think it would be cool.
    If you're custom designing monsters for use with FS, definitely give them HP and FS. But taking by-the-book monsters, it can be a hassle to convert them over.

    Plus, part of the point of Fighting Spirit is to ensure you CANNOT be one-shot. Monsters don't need that protection, usually.
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

    Spoiler: Former Avatars
    Show
    Spoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Linkele
    Show

    Spoiler: Individual Avatar Pics
    Show

  18. - Top - End - #78
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Max_Killjoy's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    The Lakes

    Default Re: How do you feel about gaining HP with level?

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    If you're custom designing monsters for use with FS, definitely give them HP and FS. But taking by-the-book monsters, it can be a hassle to convert them over.

    Plus, part of the point of Fighting Spirit is to ensure you CANNOT be one-shot. Monsters don't need that protection, usually.
    I'd say you'd want both kinds of monsters -- those who can be one-shot, and those who cannot.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

    Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.

    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

    The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.

  19. - Top - End - #79
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2015

    Default Re: How do you feel about gaining HP with level?

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    There are ways for Wizards to be "that tough" too.
    True, and you could probably justify a bit just from the rough life of adventure. That would make sense for a battle mage as well, but I don't think the standard pure mage would do that. Which is highly dependent on the setting and archetypes used in it.

  20. - Top - End - #80
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How do you feel about gaining HP with level?

    It depends on the kind of game. If it's a modern style game in which it's assumed that PCs never die, then hit points won't matter.

    The question of hit points only matters if PCs might die.

  21. - Top - End - #81
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    oxybe's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2009

    Default Re: How do you feel about gaining HP with level?

    And I'm more then happy to never have to suffer a seat your table, Max.

    Peace out all.

  22. - Top - End - #82
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Knaight's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2008

    Default Re: How do you feel about gaining HP with level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    It depends on the kind of game. If it's a modern style game in which it's assumed that PCs never die, then hit points won't matter.

    The question of hit points only matters if PCs might die.
    This is nonsense. Putting aside how the assumption that PCs never die isn't even that common in modern games, it's not a requirement for them to matter anyways. HP depletion could mean getting knocked out and captured instead, and it will still matter. HP depletion could mean being out of commission for weeks as wounds slowly heal, and it will still matter. HP depletion could mean your robotic form blows up and you have to restore from a backup far away, and it will still matter. Heck, HP depletion could mean that you lose the current engagement and are forced to retreat with no meaningful injuries - even in that example where it means about as little as possible it still matters if the fight was about anything other than killing the other side.

    Now, it is true that the rest of these require a bit more context to matter, where the players have goals beyond "don't die". If "don't die" is the full goal of the players, then yes, hit points won't matter if hit point depletion means something other than death. It also takes some real ineptitude and/or apathy somewhere to end up with a game entirely about survival with nothing else going on it where death is off the table.
    I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.

    I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that.
    -- ChubbyRain

    Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.

  23. - Top - End - #83
    Titan in the Playground
     
    2D8HP's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    San Francisco Bay area
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How do you feel about gaining HP with level?

    While it's mostly about Armor Class, Hit points are also mentioned, so I thought this piece by one of the guys who helped write rules for early D&D would be germane:
    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Kask
    What we really meant—Pt. 1--AC


    In recent weeks I have found myself, as part of an exciting new project I have embarked upon, doing a lot of synopsizing what some have come to see as complex or confusing concepts. One example that springs to mind is the old stat known as Armor or Armor Class (AC). In OD&D it was a really simple system that ranked plain old street clothes as AC9, while at the other end of the non-magical spectrum was plate mail and a shield at AC2


    If Hit Points (HP) are considered to be your ability to avoid/evade a mortal blow (which they were in OD&D), then AC was how hard you were “to hit” (in this case threaten your well-being to some degree).


    “To Hit” is another term that does not exactly mean what it seems to mean based on just the words. Confused yet? Consider “the Mountain” from Game of Thrones on HBO. This is one HUGE dude encased in metal. If three or four puny (normal-sized) guys attack him, chances are that their weapons will actually make physical contact with The Mountain lots of times; this is not what is referenced in “To Hit”. Of those several physical contacts, only a small proportion of them will actually strike with a potential to do actual damage; i.e. pierce the armor at a weak point or joint, or slice or pierce some flesh. Those are what are winnowed out of the combat to be represented by the To Hit number.

    Back to AC; something as small and ephemeral as a pixie or sprite, or small and quick like a stirge would be somewhat difficult to simply swat out of the air like an over-sized wasp. To simulate that facet of their being I make them hard “to hit” by giving them a very good AC.


    (OD&D had a descending AC system starting at 9 and going down; other systems use an ascending system, where 1 is street togs and 7 or 8 is really buff. Readjust this in your head to match your system; the concepts remain constant. Something slow and ponderous, such as a pachyderm, would be easier to strike, but the thickness of the skin somewhat mitigates this as well as the high number of HP an elephant or mammoth might have.)


    AC does not always indicate what is being worn. AC is a combination of several concepts, not only the weight of the metal being worn.


    To maintain perspective remember this: we were trying to bring miniatures to the table top. Several of the seemingly complex considerations and calculations were second nature to miniatures gamers. We tried to abstract a lot of what was second nature in minis to a whole new milieu—Table-top Role-playing (and this before it was even called role-playing).


    Once this concept is grasped in the abstract, it then becomes more clear why extraordinary attributes can affect AC, or otherwise make the PC harder “To Hit”. These same attributes also can grant the PC more HP, all in recognition of how that last, fatal blow is just that, fatal. I have never counted anything more than “dead”; hit 0 HP and you died. Whether or not your PC can be Raised or Resurrected is another matter entirely. We had PC’s brought back from dead several times, although not always with absolute best results.



    But anyway, that’s what we meant.
    The source of the quote is here.
    Extended Sig
    D&D Alignment history
    Quote Originally Posted by JoeJ View Post
    Does the game you play feature a Dragon sitting on a pile of treasure, in a Dungeon?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja_Prawn View Post
    You're an NPC stat block."I remember when your race was your class you damned whippersnappers"
    Snazzy Avatar by Honest Tiefling!

  24. - Top - End - #84
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Mid-Rohan
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How do you feel about gaining HP with level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Knaight View Post
    It also takes some real ineptitude and/or apathy somewhere to end up with a game entirely about survival with nothing else going on it where death is off the table.
    Or a specific setting. Post apocalyptic survival OR survival horror are very popular game genres.
    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    Some play RPG's like chess, some like charades.

    Everyone has their own jam.

  25. - Top - End - #85
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    WhiteWizardGirl

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    West Yorkshire
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: How do you feel about gaining HP with level?

    I find it amusing that many people on here should probably be playing Call of Cthulhu/Basic Roleplaying where you only advance by using skills and don't get more hit points... I personally like games with more consistant increases, but perhaps a part way solution would work somewhere

    For the uninitiated - Call of Cthulhu/BRP you gain 'ticks' next to a skill when you use it successfully (in an appropriate manner, and subject to the game-master's approval), at the end of the session/adventure you then get to make a check with each skill and on a failure you gain +1d6 (or 1d10 in later versions) points in that skill (skills are percentile based, so that's not as big a gain as it sounds for people used to D&D). Training and 'skillbooks' do exist in various versions of the game, though how they work is inconsistent between editions.

    Hit Points just don't get better (at least not without magic or some other effect).

    I wouldn't translate the system to D&D5e where you don't generally gain new skills without multiclassing, in 3.X/pathfinder, I could see a tick system where instead of giving you a bonus, it limits what skills you can increase at level up.


    - - - - -

    For HP, I'm not really a fan of HP, but not to the point where I would re-write it. I think that the softened levels in 5e seem to conflict with with the extra HD every level approach, I would rather add CON instead of Con bonus at 1st level, then give 1-4 hp each level. (say 1 for d6 classes, 2 for d8, 3 for d10 and 4 for d12).

    I also like the WFRP hit points (2e version at least, not played others), where hit points are specifically nothing/scratches/bruises, until you run out, then every hit does 'critical damage' (i.e. actual physical injuries or chance of death). Critical hits/nasty environmental damage can then go straight to injuries.

    However there also has to be a point where you need to decide what balance there is between realism and speed. Looking up a chart for every time you're hit gets tiresome very quickly. Even just on criticals (depending on how often them come up of course), it's annoying.

    Finally, don't dismiss plot damage, in opposition to plot armour. If someone intentionally hurts themselves it will hurt them (i.e. I might give you a shot to jump between rocks floating in lava with just some hp damage, but if you purposefully jump into lava you're dead, I don't care that you have 206 hp left - though I will make it clear that this is a consequence, not just wait for someone to try it).

  26. - Top - End - #86
    Troll in the Playground
     
    BarbarianGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How do you feel about gaining HP with level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pleh View Post
    Or a specific setting. Post apocalyptic survival OR survival horror are very popular game genres.
    Yes, but in both those genres you expect that there is a decent chance some or all of the characters will die. If "survival" is the objective, then there must be a chance that you fail the objective, or else it isn't a game.

  27. - Top - End - #87
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2013

    Default Re: How do you feel about gaining HP with level?

    As a kid, I played JRPGs and TCGs before starting tabletop with Dungeons and Dragons, so honestly? It's so familiar, I could care less how realistic it seems. I've read other systems and have grown to like Fate with its Stress/Consequence delineation, but I have no qualms against HP, or levels, or HP scaling by levels. In my head, HP measures your ability to continue fighting, and like to flavor attacks in that light (grazing blows and exhaustive blocks being the norm, with the final few or extremely grievous blows excepted). Levels are a representation of growth - exact growth is abstract, just like most mechanical aspects, but it reflects getting better over time. HP gained per level, then, is learning to fight longer, take more smaller injuries, grit your teeth and bear the consequences. Of course, that's all if you need an explanation; I don't, and can live with games mechanics not tying to anything resembling reality.
    Cookie Count: One

    Quote Originally Posted by digiman619 View Post
    Spoiler: True Facts
    Show

  28. - Top - End - #88
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Morty's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Poland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How do you feel about gaining HP with level?

    This discussion would be a lot more productive if people dropped the false dichotomy that it's either ever-scaling HP or realistic and/or low-powered game. This is not true at all, since you can have an unrealistic, high-powered game without continually escalating the PCs' passive ability to withstand punishment. And it'll be better for it.
    Last edited by Morty; 2017-09-18 at 03:52 PM.
    My FFRP characters. Avatar by Ashen Lilies. Sigatars by Ashen Lilies, Gullara and Purple Eagle.
    Interested in the Nexus FFRP setting? See our Discord server.

  29. - Top - End - #89
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Nifft's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How do you feel about gaining HP with level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    This discussion would be a lot more productive if people dropped the false dichotomy that it's either ever-scaling HP or realistic and/or low-powered game. This is not true at all, since you can have an unrealistic, high-powered game without continually escalating the PCs' passive ability to withstand punishment. And it'll be better for it.
    Exalted is a citation that you are correct.

    One of the highest power games, but no particular "level" scaling for their HP analogue.

  30. - Top - End - #90
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2013

    Default Re: How do you feel about gaining HP with level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Exalted is a citation that you are correct.

    One of the highest power games, but no particular "level" scaling for their HP analogue.
    But the insane rocket tag that occurs in Black Crusade eventually is a citation that he is not. Also the ability to soak damage in Exalted can scale with exp as long as you assign exp to it.

    Scaling defensive capacity and power level are preferences, flat out. There is no objectively better combination of the two in a vacuum. As long as everyone in the gaming group is happy with what you use and what you use does not break the versimilitude asserted by that particular system you are fine.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •