Spells and Maneuvers for a Dragon

[Adam500]

So some of you may remember my thread from a few weeks back where I asked for build advice on a Warpriest/Battle Templar for an Ironfang Invasion game I'm currently playing in. Well... a 50+ damage critical from a Troglodyte Barbarian later, and I've had to build a new character.

Meet Balerion the Bronze. Eventually to be a (Bronze) True Dragon 13/Aegis 3/Warder (Fiendbound Marauder) 1 (by campaign's end). A monstrous combination of several Dreamscarred Press products.

Currently, he is a True Dragon 1/Aegis 2. Next level will be True Dragon, 5th will be Aegis, then the Warder dip at 6th, then True Dragon to the end.

While True dragons are a pretty simple to build the two dips I'm taking (Aegis and Warder) means by the end Balerion will have access to at least 8 maneuvers, from several different disciplines. Primal Fury's Frenzy Strike and Cornered Frenzy Strike are high on the list but beyond those obvious picks the field is wide open. His 3rd-level Sorceror casting will also be a concern, but those spell slots are few enough that I can probably hazard out some useful picks -- even if by accident XD.

The Warder Maneuvers will be capped at 6th; from Black Seraph, Eternal Guardian, Primal Fury, Broken Blade, Cursed Razor, and Piercing Thunder. I get 5 maneuvers, and 1 stance here.
The Aegis Maneuvers (from the Initiator's Soul customization) will be capped at 4th; from Sleeping Goddess and two other disciplines. I get 3 maneuvers, and 1 stance here (barring more customizations).

I'm open to any suggestions, though my current thoughts lie in taking Black Seraph's Glare and the two AoE strikes from the discipline as supplemental breath weapons. Plus those aforementioned strikes from Primal Fury, and PF's Shake it Off Counter. The rest is up in the air, and while I don't need these decisions today having an idea of where my choices are going will help when I finally take the level of Warder. I'm also completely open on my Aegis maneuvers.

I have some ideas obviously, but I'm curious to see how others would select maneuvers for an initiating dragon. Thanks in advance, and I welcome any questions about the character or build.

[exelsisxax]

First, what is true dragon from? I've never heard of it.

Second, your estimation of your maneuver levels is wrong. You won't ever get 2nd level maneuvers from 3 levels of aegis, and never beyond 5th level maneuvers with a warder initiator level of 9. Your power as an initiator will quite simply be bad.

Have you talked to your DM about aegis and fiendbound marauder on a dragon? They can't use humanoid items, and both classes rely on specific worn items.

[Adam500]

First, what is true dragon from? I've never heard of it.

http://paizo.com/products/btpy9j5p/d...WorkInProgress

Second, your estimation of your maneuver levels is wrong. You won't ever get 2nd level maneuvers from 3 levels of aegis, and never beyond 5th level maneuvers with a warder initiator level of 9. Your power as an initiator will quite simply be bad.

So this is partly my fault as I said things without providing detail. You always add half your levels in other classes to a classes' initiator level giving the Aegis an Initiator level of 10 by lvl17. Thats a maximum maneuver level of 4 because it uses the Archetype progression chart. I can change these maneuvers at-will by redoing my customization.

Likewise, Warder 1 adds 8, and I also have Practiced Iniaitor (Warder) adding another 2 for a total of Initiator level 11. This is just high enough for 6th level maneuvers. While I don't gain additional maneuvers beyond the starting allotment, at IL 4and every even level after that I can swap a known maneuver for a new one.

Have you talked to your DM about aegis and fiendbound marauder on a dragon? They can't use humanoid items, and both classes rely on specific worn items.

Dragons as a whole fall in a weird place when it comes to items, but the assumption we are making is that he summons the aegis suit as a kind of barding designed for his quadruped shape (why wouldn't he?) which isn't mechanically any different. Heavier armors include gauntlets by default so that alleviates any questions about the marauder.

[Air0r]

This is well thought out. If you have the feats to spare, the humanoid shape feat and maybe the half-dragon shape feats could be an intriguing addition.
Anyway, your actual question: "I'm curious to see how others would select maneuvers for an initiating dragon."
If you are willing to play up the intimidation factor and being a tad evil, I would main Black Seraph, grabbing spilled salt from cursed razor and otherwise putting everything else into eternal guardian (as far as warder is concerned).
For your aegis maneuvers, since those will be super flexible, riven hourglass is nice, and either silver crane (if you like balancing good and evil style concepts) or Radiant Dawn (IF permitted, though I think that the laser beam you get for free is perhaps too good of a delivery system for maneuvers).

[exelsisxax]

http://paizo.com/products/btpy9j5p/d...WorkInProgress

So this is partly my fault as I said things without providing detail. You always add half your levels in other classes to a classes' initiator level giving the Aegis an Initiator level of 10 by lvl17. Thats a maximum maneuver level of 4 because it uses the Archetype progression chart. I can change these maneuvers at-will by redoing my customization.

Likewise, Warder 1 adds 8, and I also have Practiced Iniaitor (Warder) adding another 2 for a total of Initiator level 11. This is just high enough for 6th level maneuvers. While I don't gain additional maneuvers beyond the starting allotment, at IL 4and every even level after that I can swap a known maneuver for a new one.


Dragons as a whole fall in a weird place when it comes to items, but the assumption we are making is that he summons the aegis suit as a kind of barding designed for his quadruped shape (why wouldn't he?) which isn't mechanically any different. Heavier armors include gauntlets by default so that alleviates any questions about the marauder.

I didn't know the dragon was finished, I'll have to look it up later.

You'd be right about warder if you have the trait, you're wrong about aegis. They don't use initiator level to qualify for maneuvers, they are gated by class level like every other archetype initiator. You need to be aegis level 4 to get 2nd level maneuvers from aegis. Advanced study and PrCs get around that.

I mean more along the lines of understanding that your armor might weight 300 lbs on its own. However, an astral suit in no way qualifies you for wearing gauntlets. You actually need to be wearing gauntlets, just like every other example in PoW(like silver fist monk) and PF as a whole(full plate doesn't give you useful unarmed strikes). You need to have actual dragon-appropriate gauntlets or for your DM to ignore the rule.

But what are you actually going for with this build? There's no way people can provide meaningful input in how to do X when they don't know what X is. A controller, a support, and a striker are all going to pick very different maneuvers.

[Air0r]

You'd be right about warder if you have the trait, you're wrong about aegis. They don't use initiator level to qualify for maneuvers, they are gated by class level like every other archetype initiator. You need to be aegis level 4 to get 2nd level maneuvers from aegis. Advanced study and PrCs get around that.

Is that something I missed in the PoW errata? cause that sounds exactly counter to how I have always read it. Can you give me a page where you are seeing this?

[exelsisxax]

Is that something I missed in the PoW errata? cause that sounds exactly counter to how I have always read it. Can you give me a page where you are seeing this?

Every single archetype initiator has always had it, it isn't new in the errata. For aegis, PoW:E page 37 right under the big "AEGIS" section.

The maximum levels of maneuvers and stances gained through aegis customizations is limited by those listed on Table 2-1: Archetype Maneuver Progression, although this restriction does not apply to maneuvers added to his maneuvers known through other methods, such as prestige classes or the Advanced Study feat.

tl:dr multiclassing murders your ability to get high-level maneuvers.

[lord_khaine]

Kinda sad that they did this though. Being multi-class friendly were one of the main points with the source material (ToB)

[exelsisxax]

Kinda sad that they did this though. Being multi-class friendly were one of the main points with the source material (ToB)

With most archetypes, it wouldn't be a problem. Unfortunately, they derped hard on the aegis, which desperately needs a lid on it, and polymath/warpath follower/nightmare are super strong even with it.

But for everybody else, you wouldn't be breaking anything by letting the max maneuver level gate by initiator level on the same chart. It's not like myrmidons and ambush hunters are breaking anyone's campaign.

[Adam500]

You'd be right about warder if you have the trait, you're wrong about aegis. They don't use initiator level to qualify for maneuvers, they are gated by class level like every other archetype initiator. You need to be aegis level 4 to get 2nd level maneuvers from aegis. Advanced study and PrCs get around that.

I mean more along the lines of understanding that your armor might weight 300 lbs on its own. However, an astral suit in no way qualifies you for wearing gauntlets. You actually need to be wearing gauntlets, just like every other example in PoW(like silver fist monk) and PF as a whole(full plate doesn't give you useful unarmed strikes). You need to have actual dragon-appropriate gauntlets or for your DM to ignore the rule.

But what are you actually going for with this build? There's no way people can provide meaningful input in how to do X when they don't know what X is. A controller, a support, and a striker are all going to pick very different maneuvers.

The build is meant to be the party's frontline combatant (the other members are a hunter, his companion, a skald, and a sphere-caster healer).

If I have to buy or have engineered a gauntlet for the dragon thats not a huge problem.

That sucks a bit about the aegis. Maneuvers are not originally why I took the class (the armor is) but they were a nice bonus. Maybe Student of the Astral Suit would apply giving me a level of 7 for it? I dunno about that though.

[exelsisxax]

The build is meant to be the party's frontline combatant (the other members are a hunter, his companion, a skald, and a sphere-caster healer).

If I have to buy or have engineered a gauntlet for the dragon thats not a huge problem.

That sucks a bit about the aegis. Maneuvers are not originally why I took the class (the armor is) but they were a nice bonus. Maybe Student of the Astral Suit would apply giving me a level of 7 for it? I dunno about that though.

If you're taking only 3 levels, don't bother with initiating customizations. Nothing wrong with the class, that's just not how initiating works with it. Student of the astral suit doesn't help, it just gives you more CP, and even levels of metaforge don't help. But you can get better maneuvers anyway if you shift those levels into warder, especially with practiced initiator.

Eternal guardian is always good for a frontliner, especially one that can get stupid reach stacking from something like fiend's grip+extended reach on a large creature like I think you are going for. But you might not have enough maneuvers known for much of anything else.

What kind of spellcasting are we talking about here? I haven't had the chance to read the dragon class yet.

There's one or two spherecaster/initiator hybrid classes from PoW/DSP writers somewhere that haven't been published that could do both with less multiclassing struggles.
If it's one of those crazy OP "add levels to X progression", there are inquisitor and warpriest spellcasting/initiating hybrid archetypes that might get a lot of mileage.
On top of those, you could get rid of warder entirely and use aegis for temporary initiator's soul shenanigans to qualify for bladecaster(arcane) or battle templar(divine) spellcasting/initiating dual progression PrCs depending on what the dragon gets you.

Spell selection will depend on what kind of casting and from what lists, of course.

[Adam500]

Sorry I've been slow to reply, work is a killer.

If you're taking only 3 levels, don't bother with initiating customizations. Nothing wrong with the class, that's just not how initiating works with it. Student of the astral suit doesn't help, it just gives you more CP, and even levels of metaforge don't help. But you can get better maneuvers anyway if you shift those levels into warder, especially with practiced initiator.

Three levels + Student of the Astral Suit still gets me Full Plate as my astral juggernaught (correct me if I'm wrong). The point of the 3-level dip was for the easy armor. Initiating became a secondary fixation when I realized I could do it. Would a couple Akashic veils make better use of those customizations? Or should I just go for stat bumps?

Eternal guardian is always good for a frontliner, especially one that can get stupid reach stacking from something like fiend's grip+extended reach on a large creature like I think you are going for. But you might not have enough maneuvers known for much of anything else.

This was one of the benefits of dual-initiating with Aegis (even if its super weak). A few more maneuver slots to put utility maneuvers in with Warder doing the heavy lifting on a combat style (well, it and Primal Fury. The Frenzy Strike and Cornered Frenzy strike are both REALLY good with natural attacks).

What kind of spellcasting are we talking about here? I haven't had the chance to read the dragon class yet.

There's one or two spherecaster/initiator hybrid classes from PoW/DSP writers somewhere that haven't been published that could do both with less multiclassing struggles.
If it's one of those crazy OP "add levels to X progression", there are inquisitor and warpriest spellcasting/initiating hybrid archetypes that might get a lot of mileage.
On top of those, you could get rid of warder entirely and use aegis for temporary initiator's soul shenanigans to qualify for bladecaster(arcane) or battle templar(divine) spellcasting/initiating dual progression PrCs depending on what the dragon gets you.

Spell selection will depend on what kind of casting and from what lists, of course.

Sadly, its only a level of Sorceror casting once every four levels of True Dragon. I'll look at those PrCs, but losing full BAB, d12 hd, and all-good saves, plus size/natural attack/natural armor increases makes dipping out of True Dragon a tough sell.

[exelsisxax]

Sorry I've been slow to reply, work is a killer.

Three levels + Student of the Astral Suit still gets me Full Plate as my astral juggernaught (correct me if I'm wrong). The point of the 3-level dip was for the easy armor. Initiating became a secondary fixation when I realized I could do it. Would a couple Akashic veils make better use of those customizations? Or should I just go for stat bumps?

Unfortunately, this doesn't get you full plate. SotAS doesn't increase your effective aegis level for much - ONLY customization points and for being permitted to select customizations. It doesn't even make your effective level higher for calculating the effects of customizations.

Because astral suits only provide enhancement bonuses to ability scores, they kind of suck for that purpose except 1-st level shenanigans and making MAD hurt your WBL less. I am unaware of akashic options for aegii, so I don't know if they're any good.

This was one of the benefits of dual-initiating with Aegis (even if its super weak). A few more maneuver slots to put utility maneuvers in with Warder doing the heavy lifting on a combat style (well, it and Primal Fury. The Frenzy Strike and Cornered Frenzy strike are both REALLY good with natural attacks).

The problem is that there are no good 1st level maneuvers that you'd want to hang on to. At level 3, you would already be outclassed by full initiators. Your natural weapons are worse than manufactured and you literally cannot get the maneuvers to make them good with only 3 aegis levels. Primal fury doesn't have any utility to tack on to your build. If you are fully committed to that many levels of true dragon, you will never have the build resources to be a good initiator. You can cherry-pick a few nice maneuvers to be frontline capable(raging hunter pounce at IL 3, frenzy strike at IL 5), but if anyone else is an initiator you are going to be overshadowed in the role at every turn.

Sadly, its only a level of Sorceror casting once every four levels of True Dragon. I'll look at those PrCs, but losing full BAB, d12 hd, and all-good saves, plus size/natural attack/natural armor increases makes dipping out of True Dragon a tough sell.

The problem is that true dragon lacks meaningful class features. You've got great numbers and nothing to back it up. Full casters can do all of this and more(conveniently just by turning into dragons) but can do something else next round, and something completely different the next day - you've got the same problem as a fighter. Bladecaster would be grea, but you can't reasonably qualify without ~2 sorc levels.

If you want powerful initiating, you need more PoW class levels, no way around it. Castilonium can probably tell you how to get to a collosal-size 6-armed dragon with near-full IL in 5 dips or less. That's pretty close to TO, though. If you just want initiating that works on a dragon, just drop the aegis initiating in favor of a few levels of warder for high-impact capability, or a few martial training feats for minimal capacity. You're stretched all over the place trying to do a lot of things here, and simply can't make all of it work well. I just don't have any specific idea of what the specific goals are to get there in a better way.