How would Sorcerer compare to Wizard if the Sorc had the Wiz's casting progression?

[Kaiwen]

I'm trying to understand how much of the Wizard/Sorcerer discrepancy is in the casting progression, rather than PRCs, collecting spells, etc. So, how much worse than the wizard would the sorcerer be if they both had the wizard's casting progression?

tl;dr
Read the title.

[GilesTheCleric]

The difference between the two is that the Wizard isn't limited to just a few spells known per level. The added versatility of the spellbook is key.

[Sagetim]

Part of the equation is casting progression, but a much, much larger component to the disparity between sorcerer and wizard is how many spells the wizard can know, and how few spells the sorcerer is limited to.

There are a Lot of spells in 3.5 on the wizard/sorcerer list, and the wizard can potentially learn them all. At minimum, they are going to be able to know at least 4 of each spell level (more 1st level spells), with yet more if they took Collegiate Arcanist, and yet more if they scribed anything from any outside source ever.

The Wizard Can know all the things, in between adventuring days, they can prepare completely different set ups of spells at their fingertips, they can have readied just a handful of useful little things without it eating into bulk of their spell knowledge for that particular level.

The Sorcerer, by comparison, is kind of screwed on that front. Especially at higher levels, they only know something like 3 spells per level. That's where it hurts the most, especially for spells that have high costs (and further if those spells are the only one you know at that level, like taking Wish at level 18).

So, versatility counts for a lot. Your Mileage May Vary, especially if you have a combat heavy campaign where blasting is the main to do for casters, but for general purposes, versatility is going to get you more mileage than repetition.

[ryu]

Wider number of spells known means the wizard has the ability to binge on utility spells, downtime spells, situational spells, and so on that a sorcerer just can't without sacrificing the powerful and versatile spells that make up the bread and butter of an arcane caster. What does this mean? Wizards will still be able to more efficiently leverage downtime into power, will almost certainly know more about their enemies, enter fights with more and better buffs, have many many more safeties and fallback plans if something goes wrong, have more ability to fix mistakes in spell choice if they're new but willing to experiment, have easier use of metamagic, and have access to more and better alternative class features.

The lowered spell progression sorcerers have DOES hurt mind you. It's just more of an insult to injury as opposed to the core weakness.

[BaronDoctor]

Given the fairly low downtime available plot-wise at most tables? Probably less than you might think.

With sufficient downtime, wealth, and spell sources, Wizard tends to approach the Cleric level of "I'll have an answer for that tomorrow". Granted, fixed-list Rainbow Servant does those shenanigans better, but that's a specific shenanigans build and is neither Wizard nor Sorcerer.

Anybody who knows wizards can turn downtime into power knows to run games that either have stuff going on outside or have time-sensitive objectives.

A rushed Wizard ends up looking a lot like a restricted Sorcerer because they don't have the time to go into encounters knowing what's going on ahead of time. A Sorcerer with downtime is more like a Fighter with downtime: bored and likely to look for trouble.

Wizards can get the "Shark-Repellent Bat Spray" spell that specifically repels sharks without harming them or anything else...without harming their ability to have other spells.

Sorcerer spells are all about the ideology of the 70+% solution: when you're 70+% sure you'll have a 70+% success rate, do it. They grab spells with a lot of utility--Disintegrate does damage, destroys objects, and can generally be useful in a wide variety of circumstances.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Having played a class that literally has this as casting I can say: not much. You gain the tiniest bit of leeway with losing spell levels (still an atrocious idea because goodbye high-level spells known forever) but are otherwise similar to a sorcerer.

[RoboEmperor]

On par for sure. As someone who played both, the main reason I don't play sorcerer is because of that 1 level delay. If I get dips as a sorcerer I will be 2 levels behind the norm and that is just too much to take.

As someone who plays planar binding characters exclusively, this change would definitely make me play sorcerers exclusively and just dominate the game.

The only time wizards would outshine sorcerers is if you're trying to do something that can't be accomplished with an army of outsiders, like specific spells no outsider has an SLA for (assuming wish slas are not allowed).

So sorcerer's charisma + Cleric's Surge of Fortune (obtained via Wyrm Wizard) -> Bind a ton of outsiders a day at 100% success rate (not including saving throw), and those outsiders let you do virtually everything a wizard does.

[ATHATH]

It depends if Knowstone/Runestaff/Drake Helm cheese is on the table.

[ZamielVanWeber]

@someonenoone11: You pushed the extreme limits of the game which would easily hit the point where a wizard and sorcerer are indistinguishable anyways. I am curious what you think if the casters were not pushing their power to the limits.

[Elkad]

Without cheese? Still noticeably weaker.

Half the utility scrolls (because he has to buy them at full price).
Less than half the skill points.
Less skill access (not that he can afford them)
5 less feats.
No school specialization.
A focused specialist still has more potential variety than a sorc, and gets the same amount of spells per day.

In exchange for all that he gets what?
Wings of Cover and Bluff?

[RoboEmperor]

@someonenoone11: You pushed the extreme limits of the game which would easily hit the point where a wizard and sorcerer are indistinguishable anyways. I am curious what you think if the casters were not pushing their power to the limits.

I actually just bind 1 outsider at a time, definitely no angels, but I like to have the option of going super power. Variable power level is better than fixed power level because that way I can match the optimization level of the party. But yes at maximum power my sorcerer can rival wizards because unlike them, the number of outsiders I can bind in a day is limited to my spell slots, not how many debuffs I need to cast on them.

As for "normal" play, sorcerers are extremely specialized, which is part of the reason I like them. They are better than wizards at what they specialize in, but that's it. I played a human sorcerer that optimized lesser orb of fire with arcane thesis, maximize/repeat/twin spell with energy substitution: acid, and I dealt more single target damage than any wizard can ever hope to achieve. This build in particular bypassed the sorcerer's level delay problem because the bottleneck of her power was actually feats not spell levels, her power was based on how many metamagics I could stack on lesser orb of fire, not higher spell acquisition, so in this case the change in casting progression would have virtually no impact. The Mailman build is overkill, dealing 160 damage a round with lesser orb of fire is more than enough (I forget the exact number, Arcane Spellsurge and Greater Arcane Fusion doubled this number I believe), especially since you don't need to wait until like level 13 to start seeing your build in action.

As for "really normal" play, like a sorcerer just grabbing BFC spells, others are correct in that it doesn't change much. Sorcerers have more spells per day, so if all you're doing is throwing glitterdust around, then yeah sorcerers > wizards, but if you need both glitterdust and web, you're screwed. Spontaneous Casting is really a non-factor because you usually have only 1 or 2 choice for your spell level. Without the casting progression change Wizards > Sorcerers all the time because earlier higher level spells > more casting of a single higher level spell. With the casting progression change, I guess sometimes sorcerers would be better if all you're focused on is as many Black Tentacles you can cast in a day.

So I guess my answer is: If you want your sorcerer to do only one thing, this casting progression change would make them superior to wizards on that one thing (I'd definitely play a Summon Monster sorcerer here), but that's it. It wouldn't change much like others said. So without, wizards > sorcerer always, with, sorcerer > wizards on one thing, wizards > sorcerer on everything else.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Interesting, thank you. Also I apologize for misconstruing exactly what you meant.

[Florian]

Hard to say, doubly so for PF where dipping or PrC don´t help all too much because the bloodlines are really powerful tools. Being realistic about it, it´s often more important to know that a certain spell actually exist and keep a scroll (or two) handy.

[Jarmen4u]

Is... someone comparing Sorcerers to Wizards in this thread?

don't ask how long I spent on making these...

[GilesTheCleric]

Is... someone comparing Sorcerers to Wizards in this thread?

don't ask how long I spent on making these...

It was completely worth it, though.

[MindTheGap97]

Ok, I play mostly Pathfinder and in the campaign I'm currently playing the DM decided to give Sorcerers and Wizards the same casting progression (Wizard's) and I am playing one right now. Sorcerer is my favorite class and having spells one level earlier does certainly help, I'd say Wizard is still more powerful, but this depends on the campaign, if you have very little downtime (or few occasions to add spells to your spellbook) the Sorcerer might end up being a tad more powerful than the Wizard, but casting progression is not the more meaningful difference between the two, the Wizard has versatility on his side and that's a big boon in my opinion.

[ZamielVanWeber]

It was completely worth it, though.

Just to be clear I am holding you and Jarmen4u personally responsible. Justice will be dispensed swiftly and will involve Gelato and a waffle cone (children and the lactose intolerant are encouraged to avert their gaze).

[GilesTheCleric]

Just to be clear I am holding you and Jarmen4u personally responsible. Justice will be dispensed swiftly and will involve Gelato and a waffle cone (children and the lactose intolerant are encouraged to avert their gaze).

I accept the risks, knowing that whatever the result, at least one person should have a good laugh and a better day from it.

[Calthropstu]

As optimization reaches infinity, the lines between classes blur. Wizard vs sorcerer has long been debated here, with most picking the wizard over sorcerer, while a few like myself pick sorcerer over wizard.
Yes, if the sorc had the same spell level progression the wizard has, it would be MUCH more useful. And while the wizard CAN know almost any spell, I've never seen a wizard who knew that many. Most wizard builds posted here ignore a vital component: spells eat wbl rather quickly. Scribing the spell, getting the scroll, paying other wizards, spell research costs...
It's actually quite expensive to have a wizard on the team, and those niche spells that "could be useful one day" usually end up never getting scribed. In practice, I have never seen a wizard with a much more enhanced spell book than a sorcerer's spell known list.
But the progression really really hurts. So yes, it would be greatly useful for that progression to be changed.

[Tvtyrant]

I'm trying to understand how much of the Wizard/Sorcerer discrepancy is in the casting progression, rather than PRCs, collecting spells, etc. So, how much worse than the wizard would the sorcerer be if they both had the wizard's casting progression?

tl;dr
Read the title.

Depends on optimization level.
Low: Wizard is much stronger because of the ability to easily fix bad choices like Hold Portal or Explosive Rune. Sorcerer is much more likely to hit a trap option and bomb.

Mid: Sorcerer comes much closer to wizard. The majority of the good spell choices are so good that niches don't matter. Polymorph, solid fog, etc. They will be casting the same spells regardless of spells known.

High: wizard now casts spontaneously anyways and has angels/shadesteel golems/mind raped copies of themselves running around doing the heavy lifting. Sorcerers are using hundreds of rune staffs made by mind raped djinns and cast infinite spells a turn. Ducks are purple and dogs crow banana.

[Calthropstu]

Depends on optimization level.
Low: Wizard is much stronger because of the ability to easily fix bad choices like Hold Portal or Explosive Rune. Sorcerer is much more likely to hit a trap option and bomb.

Mid: Sorcerer comes much closer to wizard. The majority of the good spell choices are so good that niches don't matter. Polymorph, solid fog, etc. They will be casting the same spells regardless of spells known.

High: wizard now casts spontaneously anyways and has angels/shadesteel golems/mind raped copies of themselves running around doing the heavy lifting. Sorcerers are using hundreds of rune staffs made by mind raped djinns and cast infinite spells a turn. Ducks are purple and dogs crow banana.

Actually, mid op the sorcerer picks up the psionic power psychic reformation as a spell like ability, bypassing the xp cost and far outstrips the wizard in versatility.

[sorcererlover]

Actually, mid op the sorcerer picks up the psionic power psychic reformation as a spell like ability, bypassing the xp cost and far outstrips the wizard in versatility.

How exactly do you do this?

[JustIgnoreMe]

It was completely worth it, though.

+1 to this!

[Calthropstu]

How exactly do you do this?

An intelligent item.

[sorcererlover]

An intelligent item.

Could you be more specific? Because I'm pretty sure you're making huge assumptions somewhere.

[Calthropstu]

Intelligent items cast as spell like abilities.
Craft an intelligent item with psychic reformation as a dedicated power.

[Calthropstu]

Alternatively, craft an item that can simply cast it once per day.

[sorcererlover]

Intelligent items cast as spell like abilities.
Craft an intelligent item with psychic reformation as a dedicated power.

I don't see psychic reformation as a dedicated power on the d20srd. Also intelligent items are magic items not psionic so that could also be a problem. I don't see custom magic item creation rules so I think you might be homebrewing here.

[Calthropstu]

I don't see psychic reformation as a dedicated power on the d20srd. Also intelligent items are magic items not psionic so that could also be a problem. I don't see custom magic item creation rules so I think you might be homebrewing here.

Oh, pathfinder has it you can specify any spell. Forgot about that silly 3.5 chart and specific spells. But even so, you can still have a psychic reformation item made for you, and if you're not picking it up as a sorcerer you are ignoring the single greatest item a sorcerer can get.