Spheres of Power: Protection Handbook Open Beta

[A.J.Gibson]

small question what the f happened on true protections double your protection bonus talent and why it changed it was good as it is now its kinda worthless

The parameters of what qualified as 'true name' changed. I originally intended the ability to be hard to use - you couldn't just use a person's given name, you had to research them and know you were going to fight them. After being asked to clarify what counts as knowing someone's true name, it got quite a bit easier. I might push up the bonus a bit, since Protection mostly scales badly.

[A.J.Gibson]

What about rewording the talent to be written similar to the Destroyer's Handbook's Selective Blast:

Selective Barrier
Barriers you create are selective, allowing one ally plus one per 10 caster levels to pass and attack through it while leaving it solid to all other creatures. You may instead spend a spell point to increase the number of affected allies by your casting ability modifier (minimum +1). Affected allies are chosen at the time of casting, but may be changed at the beginning of your turn as a free action.

Mirroring the destruction sphere talent is a pretty good idea, but it's still very weird to visualize beyond 'it's magic!' I was thinking of maybe making it possible to move or attack through the barrier, but only through one side. Or maybe allowing the caster to choose one of several configurations that represent the physical design of the barrier - so when you choose 'ranged attacks go through and nothing else' it gains arrow slits, and if you choose 'people can pass through it' it's two layer of short walls you can walk through that don't allow line of effect.

[khadgar567]

The parameters of what qualified as 'true name' changed. I originally intended the ability to be hard to use - you couldn't just use a person's given name, you had to research them and know you were going to fight them. After being asked to clarify what counts as knowing someone's true name, it got quite a bit easier. I might push up the bonus a bit, since Protection mostly scales badly.

please push more i want my +10 ac at level one back us casters are already to squishy to make mistakes

[Mehangel]

Mirroring the destruction sphere talent is a pretty good idea, but it's still very weird to visualize beyond 'it's magic!' I was thinking of maybe making it possible to move or attack through the barrier, but only through one side. Or maybe allowing the caster to choose one of several configurations that represent the physical design of the barrier - so when you choose 'ranged attacks go through and nothing else' it gains arrow slits, and if you choose 'people can pass through it' it's two layer of short walls you can walk through that don't allow line of effect.

I understand what you are getting at, but if the caster also has the Continuous Barrier talent, then it could also get really weird to have a "completely sealed" barrier, but has open pathways or arrow slits. Personally, simply saying "it's magic" is simple and clean-cut (even if cliche).

[Drifter S.]

I'd just like to say that seeing the Magus Arcana in this book brightened my day, as I have a lot of love for the Magus and was kind of sad to see how it ended up eating the dust of the Hedgewitch and Mageknight. Hopefully some future sphere books give the Magus some more love.

To segway right in to actual questions, how does Shared Aegis interact with Protected Soul drawback and Personal Protection Arcana (and by extension the Martial Aegis feat)? From what I'm reading, a Magus (or full BAB lowcaster) would take the drawback for a self-only Aegis, get Shared Aegis (either with the bonus talent or another drawback), then the arcana/feat to boost it to full CL. So long as he has some way of keeping his reach up (mostly size, as I don't think the wording allows something like encompassing light), his allies also benefit from the full effective caster level. I'm doubtful this is actually a problem, just curious if it actually interacts the way I'm parsing it or if Shared Aegis isn't actually intended to work with Protected Soul.

Since I'm asking about Shared Protection, a talent for standing next to and guarding allies, I might as well also ask if it ever occurred to have any Protection-related talents or feats related to the Bodyguard feat. Something that mimics the Benevolent armor quality (without stacking with said quality) is the first thing to come to mind, though far from the only option. If it was something that was brought up and discarded, care to share why?

[A.J.Gibson]

please push more i want my +10 ac at level one back us casters are already to squishy to make mistakes

How were you getting +10 AC at level 1?

[A.J.Gibson]

I'd just like to say that seeing the Magus Arcana in this book brightened my day, as I have a lot of love for the Magus and was kind of sad to see how it ended up eating the dust of the Hedgewitch and Mageknight. Hopefully some future sphere books give the Magus some more love.

To segway right in to actual questions, how does Shared Aegis interact with Protected Soul drawback and Personal Protection Arcana (and by extension the Martial Aegis feat)? From what I'm reading, a Magus (or full BAB lowcaster) would take the drawback for a self-only Aegis, get Shared Aegis (either with the bonus talent or another drawback), then the arcana/feat to boost it to full CL. So long as he has some way of keeping his reach up (mostly size, as I don't think the wording allows something like encompassing light), his allies also benefit from the full effective caster level. I'm doubtful this is actually a problem, just curious if it actually interacts the way I'm parsing it or if Shared Aegis isn't actually intended to work with Protected Soul.

Since I'm asking about Shared Protection, a talent for standing next to and guarding allies, I might as well also ask if it ever occurred to have any Protection-related talents or feats related to the Bodyguard feat. Something that mimics the Benevolent armor quality (without stacking with said quality) is the first thing to come to mind, though far from the only option. If it was something that was brought up and discarded, care to share why?

I like trying to give support to all classes, though the Magus is tricky, because it's hard to give them anything that should be exclusively magus.

Shared Aegis works fine for a character with Protected Soul and Personal Protection - you are extending an existing aegis, not creating a new one. So yes, you can give an ally a full-CL aegis if you want to shadow them.

I hadn't really thought about anything like the bodyguard feat. Protection sphere, despite the name, isn't really about protecting people, as much as it about building protective barriers and repelling harmful effects. Anything like that would probably be in Spheres of Might, unless it specifically involves an aegis or ward. Something like the Guardian aegis might be good if I can think of something.

[meemaas]

How were you getting +10 AC at level 1?

I'm gonna hazard a guess at using Armored Magic twice and the Deflection Aegis for +5 and then doubling it.

[khadgar567]

I'm gonna hazard a guess at using Armored Magic twice and the Deflection Aegis for +5 and then doubling it.

Kinda armored magic and greater armored magic to old version of true protection no deflection aegis though

[A.J.Gibson]

Kinda armored magic and greater armored magic to old version of true protection no deflection aegis though

Yeah, but that +10 was versus one creature who you knew the name of. How useful was that?

[A.J.Gibson]

I'd just like to say that seeing the Magus Arcana in this book brightened my day, as I have a lot of love for the Magus and was kind of sad to see how it ended up eating the dust of the Hedgewitch and Mageknight. Hopefully some future sphere books give the Magus some more love.

I'm actually going to revisit the arcana. Dispel strike barely does anything at all, so I'm going to combine it and reflecting strike into one (useful) arcana. I'll probably buff Personal Protection, too.

[Eldaran]

Mirroring the destruction sphere talent is a pretty good idea, but it's still very weird to visualize beyond 'it's magic!' I was thinking of maybe making it possible to move or attack through the barrier, but only through one side. Or maybe allowing the caster to choose one of several configurations that represent the physical design of the barrier - so when you choose 'ranged attacks go through and nothing else' it gains arrow slits, and if you choose 'people can pass through it' it's two layer of short walls you can walk through that don't allow line of effect.

This is what I did in my game: "Permeable Barrier: When creating a barrier you may choose to make one side permeable, allowing any effect to travel through it as normal." I find the concept a lot more appealing than just having it ignore allies.

[NomGarret]

This is what I did in my game: "Permeable Barrier: When creating a barrier you may choose to make one side permeable, allowing any effect to travel through it as normal." I find the concept a lot more appealing than just having it ignore allies.

I like that. I picture a barrier of overlapping plates that, because of their arrangement, part easily from one direction but lock together from the other.

[AlienFromBeyond]

First, no one has commented on the new Eliciter emotion. Are there any Eliciter players out there?

Second, I'm not certain about the Faithful Shepherd's spontaneous spellcasting ability. I don't want to copy the Spiritualist hedgewitch (as I feel it's too strong), but the amount of time it takes to gain a talent has been objected to by people who think it should be more and less.

Third, I'm still trying to get the sanctions right for the Exorcist. Each of it's sanctions is supposed to be good against creatures of a certain type, but some types are so broad they don't have any shared weaknesses.

I'll admit Eliciter has never really gotten me very excited, just never really been sure what to actually do with the class. That said I'll take another look instead of glossing over that bit just to try and provide at least a little feedback.

I agree that the Spiritualist tradition is too strong so I totally understand not wanting to get to close to that in its mechanics.

Quite, such as Outsider which covers so much.

[A.J.Gibson]

So, the Coiled Blade Spheres of Might Fighter archetype has recently been changed from replacing the feats at 2/6/10/14/18 to 1/4/8/12/16/20. Can't say I blame them, since it's nice to get archetype changes at 1st level and a modified capstone, but it means Impossible Warrior is no longer compatible. So I'm thinking: should I rewrite Impossible Warrior to use 2/6/10/14/18? A SoM fighter that is also an anti-magic specialist might be good.

[digiman619]

I know that it's probably too late in production for it, but I'd love for a Sentinel archetype that gave them the Protection sphere.

[A.J.Gibson]

I know that it's probably too late in production for it, but I'd love for a Sentinel archetype that gave them the Protection sphere.

It would make more sense for the Champion of the Spheres book to do that, probably. To honest, turning a non-caster into a caster is generally a bad idea, especially if you just want them to have access to one sphere. Instead, an archetype could be made that let the Sentinel choose protection talents and use them as Spell-Like Abilities, but only on their self. I actually had a Swashbuckler archetype in Protection that did exactly this, but it go cut before playtesting. Alternatively, a feat could be written to accomplish the same effect:

Protective Reserve
Prerequisites: Sentinel's Reserve class feature
Benefit: When you gain this feat, choose an Aegis talent from the Protection sphere. You may create that aegis, but only on yourself, by spending a point from your reserve. For the purpose of this aegis, your caster level is equal to your sentinel level, and your casting ability is ability you use to determine the points in your reserve. You may acquire this feat multiple times; each time, choose a different aegis.

(feel free to steal this)

[digiman619]

It would make more sense for the Champion of the Spheres book to do that, probably. To honest, turning a non-caster into a caster is generally a bad idea, especially if you just want them to have access to one sphere. Instead, an archetype could be made that let the Sentinel choose protection talents and use them as Spell-Like Abilities, but only on their self. I actually had a Swashbuckler archetype in Protection that did exactly this, but it goes cut before playtesting. Alternatively, a feat could be written to accomplish the same effect:

Protective Reserve
Prerequisites: Sentinel's Reserve class feature
Benefit: When you gain this feat, choose an Aegis talent from the Protection sphere. You may create that aegis, but only on yourself, by spending a point from your reserve. For the purpose of this aegis, your caster level is equal to your sentinel level, and your casting ability is the ability you use to determine the points in your reserve. You may acquire this feat multiple times; each time, choose a different aegis.

(feel free to steal this)

Apparantly they're running out of room for it. And I can neither confirm nor deny that I will use that feat.

[AlienFromBeyond]

So, the Coiled Blade Spheres of Might Fighter archetype has recently been changed from replacing the feats at 2/6/10/14/18 to 1/4/8/12/16/20. Can't say I blame them, since it's nice to get archetype changes at 1st level and a modified capstone, but it means Impossible Warrior is no longer compatible. So I'm thinking: should I rewrite Impossible Warrior to use 2/6/10/14/18? A SoM fighter that is also an anti-magic specialist might be good.

I am all for it, for much the same reasons. Even a War Hero Impossible Warrior sounds fun!

[A.J.Gibson]

Every now and then someone asks for a spheres version of the occultist classes. After looking over the occultist again, I noticed how similar it's magic circle ability resembled wards, and thought a protection themed archetype of the occultist would make a good inclusion into the protection handbook. I've added it to the book, but I haven't decided if I'm keeping it yet, and wouldn't mind hearing some opinions on the subject.

[khadgar567]

i think i asked this in might topic to but did protection aegis and unarmored training from equipment sphere stacks or i choose one?

[EldritchWeaver]

i think i asked this in might topic to but did protection aegis and unarmored training from equipment sphere stacks or i choose one?

If you choose the armor bonus one, no, they don't stack.

[Domar]

i think i asked this in might topic to but did protection aegis and unarmored training from equipment sphere stacks or i choose one?

The armor bonuses from Armored Magic and Unarmored Training overlap and don't stack. But it can be worthwhile to get both. Unarmored Training applies to touch AC and scales faster. Armored Magic applies while immobilized and also grants a shield bonus.

Also note that the AC Bonus class feature of Monks and similar stacks with Armored Magic but not Unarmored Training.

[A.J.Gibson]

I'm going to take minute to talk about the cryptomancer (occultist archetype) since the same points seem to come up a lot. Nothing is set in stone at this point, but there are a couple things I think we can discuss in depth.

First, Mental Focus works similarly for cryptomancer, except there is no generic focus. Instead, you can use spell points in place of focus if you are the one bearing the implement.

Implement schools don't grant bonus spells known, or rather, they grant you the mid-caster progression. Most mid-casters give up spells known for their casting progression (while they give up spell slots for spell points), the cryptomancer gives up spells known from their implements instead.

The cryptomancer gets Protection sphere at full CL with armored magic in return for their armor and shield proficiencies.

The cryptomancer keeps their implements schools. So you have a spheres caster with powers defined by Vancian schools. I know some people want to see this switched with sphere implements, which isn't a bad idea, but is just simply beyond the scope of the book, since it would require writing new focus talents for every sphere (or stealing incanter specializations). Instead, I removed most of the resonance powers (since they were the bit that referred to certain schools most, such as Conjuration focus granting caster level bonuses to Conjuration spells) and replaced them with new resonance powers.

Finally, I'm not certain what to do about powers that grant effects that duplicate equipment. I always feel like it's a rip off if my powers can be duplicated by an inexpensive item ("My super power is cost-effectiveness"). There is also the issue that it is balanced against the wealth level and crafting availability of the campaign. If I did something, it would probably be as an additional feat, so those playing high-money campaigns can just not take the ability.

A class that uses implements like an occultist with spheres would be pretty awesome, but it would require such a massive rewrite, I'd rather do it as a spheres class to begin with.

I'm not set on the resonance powers I have now, but one thing I want to do is to avoid duplicating sphere effects. Class features which are just 'you can do this spell' are kinda boring and feel like a rip-off. You're basically forcing the player to take a certain talent, and not even giving them the talent.

[Cybershark]

I'm going to take minute to talk about the cryptomancer (occultist archetype) since the same points seem to come up a lot. Nothing is set in stone at this point, but there are a couple things I think we can discuss in depth.

First, Mental Focus works similarly for cryptomancer, except there is no generic focus. Instead, you can use spell points in place of focus if you are the one bearing the implement.

Implement schools don't grant bonus spells known, or rather, they grant you the mid-caster progression. Most mid-casters give up spells known for their casting progression (while they give up spell slots for spell points), the cryptomancer gives up spells known from their implements instead.

The cryptomancer gets Protection sphere at full CL with armored magic in return for their armor and shield proficiencies.

The cryptomancer keeps their implements schools. So you have a spheres caster with powers defined by Vancian schools. I know some people want to see this switched with sphere implements, which isn't a bad idea, but is just simply beyond the scope of the book, since it would require writing new focus talents for every sphere (or stealing incanter specializations). Instead, I removed most of the resonance powers (since they were the bit that referred to certain schools most, such as Conjuration focus granting caster level bonuses to Conjuration spells) and replaced them with new resonance powers.

Finally, I'm not certain what to do about powers that grant effects that duplicate equipment. I always feel like it's a rip off if my powers can be duplicated by an inexpensive item ("My super power is cost-effectiveness"). There is also the issue that it is balanced against the wealth level and crafting availability of the campaign. If I did something, it would probably be as an additional feat, so those playing high-money campaigns can just not take the ability.

A class that uses implements like an occultist with spheres would be pretty awesome, but it would require such a massive rewrite, I'd rather do it as a spheres class to begin with.

I'm not set on the resonance powers I have now, but one thing I want to do is to avoid duplicating sphere effects. Class features which are just 'you can do this spell' are kinda boring and feel like a rip-off. You're basically forcing the player to take a certain talent, and not even giving them the talent.

It's exceedingly difficult to write Sphere conversions of the occult classes, either because it's already covered but not-quite-identically (Eliciter/Mesmerist, Kineticist/Elementalist, Medium/Troubadour), because it's too vested into Vancian mechanics (Occultist, Psychic, parts of Mesmerist), or because it's just plain full of weird class features (Spiritualist, Medium).

I view the powers that duplicate equipment bonuses in the opposite manner- I don't have to spend my precious gold on boosting my numbers, and can instead spend it on getting stuff that gives me NEW abilities or NEW capabilities. Money that may have been spent on a +4 belt could instead go towards a new weapon special ability. An Occultist with Transmutation/Abjuration implements saves tens of thousands of gold over one without... and it's not digging into their other abilities too heavily. The Armorist, maligned as it may be, also has "I'm cost-effective" as one of its major selling points. The Soulknife from 3.5e has "I'm cost-effective" as one of its major selling points. It's not an uncommon power.

Honestly, I just don't like Cryptomancer even though it is a "Sphere Occultist". I think there's merit for sphere conversions for occult classes, but as its own release, not bundled in as part of a handbook.

[khadgar567]

It's exceedingly difficult to write Sphere conversions of the occult classes, either because it's already covered but not-quite-identically (Eliciter/Mesmerist, Kineticist/Elementalist, Medium/Troubadour), because it's too vested into Vancian mechanics (Occultist, Psychic, parts of Mesmerist), or because it's just plain full of weird class features (Spiritualist, Medium).

I view the powers that duplicate equipment bonuses in the opposite manner- I don't have to spend my precious gold on boosting my numbers, and can instead spend it on getting stuff that gives me NEW abilities or NEW capabilities. Money that may have been spent on a +4 belt could instead go towards a new weapon special ability. An Occultist with Transmutation/Abjuration implements saves tens of thousands of gold over one without... and it's not digging into their other abilities too heavily. The Armorist, maligned as it may be, also has "I'm cost-effective" as one of its major selling points. The Soulknife from 3.5e has "I'm cost-effective" as one of its major selling points. It's not an uncommon power.

Honestly, I just don't like Cryptomancer even though it is a "Sphere Occultist". I think there's merit for sphere conversions for occult classes, but as its own release, not bundled in as part of a handbook.

You know answer is in the word of expended. Aka we need new spheres to expend the content. Which solves medium and spiritualists problem of not having clear sphere to focus so i nominate spirit sphere as name of the next sphere after blood as mechanics of the sphere how about possesion were caster possesed by companion similar to conjuration sphere but instead of summoning out then possesing our companion it pulls the oposite were companion posses us and adds the skills and abilities to us like celebrimbor from shadow of mordor.

this way we can convert both classes to sphere system while solve the lack of focus problem. And also provide support to binder based game play.

[A.J.Gibson]

It's exceedingly difficult to write Sphere conversions of the occult classes, either because it's already covered but not-quite-identically (Eliciter/Mesmerist, Kineticist/Elementalist, Medium/Troubadour), because it's too vested into Vancian mechanics (Occultist, Psychic, parts of Mesmerist), or because it's just plain full of weird class features (Spiritualist, Medium).

I view the powers that duplicate equipment bonuses in the opposite manner- I don't have to spend my precious gold on boosting my numbers, and can instead spend it on getting stuff that gives me NEW abilities or NEW capabilities. Money that may have been spent on a +4 belt could instead go towards a new weapon special ability. An Occultist with Transmutation/Abjuration implements saves tens of thousands of gold over one without... and it's not digging into their other abilities too heavily. The Armorist, maligned as it may be, also has "I'm cost-effective" as one of its major selling points. The Soulknife from 3.5e has "I'm cost-effective" as one of its major selling points. It's not an uncommon power.

Honestly, I just don't like Cryptomancer even though it is a "Sphere Occultist". I think there's merit for sphere conversions for occult classes, but as its own release, not bundled in as part of a handbook.

First, I just want to say I think the spiritualist would be an easy conversion. Almost none of its class features are linked to vancian spell casting beyond their spell-like abilities, and you can keep those quite easily. Of course, you don't get full-CL in anything...

So is the general concensus that people would prefer the old transmutation resonance ability? Because frankly, I wouldn't mind cutting some words from the handbook. I really don't see why anyone would want to keep abjuration, though, with resistance aegis so easy to get. And as I've said elsewhere, I think classes should get unique class features when possible, not abilities which exactly duplicate spells.

I'd also like to point out that the Cryptomancer does not preclude the printing of a Sphere Occultist at a later date. And if someone went to Adam Meyers and said they want to do a conversion, he'd probably listen. I'm not certain if conversions of classes if enough to base an entire release on, though.

Is there anything else about the Cryptomancer you don't like?

[khadgar567]

First, I just want to say I think the spiritualist would be an easy conversion. Almost none of its class features are linked to vancian spell casting beyond their spell-like abilities, and you can keep those quite easily. Of course, you don't get full-CL in anything...

So is the general concensus that people would prefer the old transmutation resonance ability? Because frankly, I wouldn't mind cutting some words from the handbook. I really don't see why anyone would want to keep abjuration, though, with resistance aegis so easy to get. And as I've said elsewhere, I think classes should get unique class features when possible, not abilities which exactly duplicate spells.

I'd also like to point out that the Cryptomancer does not preclude the printing of a Sphere Occultist at a later date. And if someone went to Adam Meyers and said they want to do a conversion, he'd probably listen. I'm not certain if conversions of classes if enough to base an entire release on, though.

Is there anything else about the Cryptomancer you don't like?

crypt talents sound good so can we bump them to new talents section. since occultist is generally incanter with object dependence drawback so it don't need conversion to spheres just couple of twigs and twists and it suits the sphere mold already. so any more questions on the topic.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

crypt talents sound good so can we bump them to new talents section. since occultist is generally incanter with object dependence drawback so it don't need conversion to spheres just couple of twigs and twists and it suits the sphere mold already. so any more questions on the topic.

The Occultist and Incanter are very different classes my dude. And this isn’t the thread to discuss this in depth.

[AlienFromBeyond]

The Armorist, maligned as it may be, also has "I'm cost-effective" as one of its major selling points. The Soulknife from 3.5e has "I'm cost-effective" as one of its major selling points. It's not an uncommon power.

It's not uncommon, but it's not popular or powerful. Armorist is considered by many to be the black sheep of the SoP classes, same for the Soulknife and Psionics. Hell, the Soulknife got a heavily suggested houserule later on to give it manifesting on top of all of its class features, because the class as it was doesn't have enough but DSP didn't want to buck the 3.5 Soulknife design too much with the initial release so people wouldn't have a kneejerk reaction to it. Being cost-effective just isn't interesting or fun design, especially not for the paltry amounts of gold something like a Cloak of Resistance takes (the cheapest scaling magic item you want).