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    Default How to cut out Darkvision?

    So, one thing that pains me and a couple other players at our table is the ubiquitousness of darkvision among the races.

    Whenever the DM is trying to set the mood with a nice spot of gloom, they are answered with a moodkilling chorus of "Oh, I have darkvision, so I don't have to worry about that! What's over here?" If the DM wants to rub in the gloom aspect they then have to add in magical darkness, which is nigh-on impenetrable to everything, amazingly difficult to get rid of, and suspension-of-disbelief breaking in large quantities.

    One of my friends has taken to adding in "magical darkness that can be penetrated by mundane sources of light" just to get darkvision out of the equation. It seems to me that removing it would be the simpler option.

    Thus, I've got a couple questions for the bright folks of the forums.

    If you took darkvision away from everyone except drow and kobolds without a replacement, would it really muck up the balance that badly, or can the change just be brushed under the rug with an "eh, they're still not as lame as dragonborn"?

    Is there another good feature you can throw in there that will keep things kosher?

    If you have answers to either of these questions or any other suggestion, I'd love to hear it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DM
    You are walking down the hallways following the map. You make a left turn, two right turns, step over a tripwire, and turn into a secret door.
    Quote Originally Posted by Player
    I turn into a secret door? Dang the traps in this place are OP!

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    Default Re: How to cut out Darkvision?

    The main thing this will affect is the Stealth types. They now CANNOT sneak around in darkness, since they need light to see.

    A stopgap solution could be adding Goggles Of The Night, but adding a time limitation on them.

    Edit: Outside that, I'd add in some easy-access light items (Sunrods, for instance, are good) but it won't affect much. I'd still play in that game.
    Last edited by JNAProductions; 2017-09-17 at 11:25 PM.
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    Default Re: How to cut out Darkvision?

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    The main thing this will affect is the Stealth types. They now CANNOT sneak around in darkness, since they need light to see.

    A stopgap solution could be adding Goggles Of The Night, but adding a time limitation on them.

    Edit: Outside that, I'd add in some easy-access light items (Sunrods, for instance, are good) but it won't affect much. I'd still play in that game.
    Thanks for the input.

    Adding light items as loot would be a nice touch, and players might actually be glad to see them for once, rather than just selling them at the first opportunity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DM
    You are walking down the hallways following the map. You make a left turn, two right turns, step over a tripwire, and turn into a secret door.
    Quote Originally Posted by Player
    I turn into a secret door? Dang the traps in this place are OP!

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    Default Re: How to cut out Darkvision?

    I think it will even help. Most often everybody, but the human in the party has darkvision and it's not fun. Or nobody has it, but the DM has prepared a dark passage up ahead and no light sources available.

    You can reduce Darkvision to see in dim light without penalty, but no darkness, and have Superior Darkvision being able to see in darkness.

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    Default Re: How to cut out Darkvision?

    could always give 'em a +2 bonus to a skill check of their choice or something to help make up for it.

    stealthy types who can't see in darkness could maybe get a bonus to perception checks when sneaking, letting them hear, smell, or sense their surroundings instead.
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    Default Re: How to cut out Darkvision?

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    The main thing this will affect is the Stealth types. They now CANNOT sneak around in darkness, since they need light to see.

    A stopgap solution could be adding Goggles Of The Night, but adding a time limitation on them.

    Edit: Outside that, I'd add in some easy-access light items (Sunrods, for instance, are good) but it won't affect much. I'd still play in that game.
    Another solution to this is to make it so that night is dim light, not total darkness. Anyone who has taken a stroll at night knows that your eyes adjust, so there's not a terribly good reason why you should be affected with the blinded condition.

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    Default Re: How to cut out Darkvision?

    Quote Originally Posted by zeek0 View Post
    Another solution to this is to make it so that night is dim light, not total darkness. Anyone who has taken a stroll at night knows that your eyes adjust, so there's not a terribly good reason why you should be affected with the blinded condition.
    I agree with this as well. Only on a really exceptionally dark night could you not see a tree trunk before you ran into it, or be TOTALLY oblivious to the position of your enemies.
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    I may tend to come across as negative, as I usually post when something is wrong or to winge, but I really like this game so far and I'm having loads of fun. Thank you everyone for making it such a great experience!


    Quote Originally Posted by DM
    You are walking down the hallways following the map. You make a left turn, two right turns, step over a tripwire, and turn into a secret door.
    Quote Originally Posted by Player
    I turn into a secret door? Dang the traps in this place are OP!

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    Default Re: How to cut out Darkvision?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alerad View Post
    You can reduce Darkvision to see in dim light without penalty, but no darkness, and have Superior Darkvision being able to see in darkness.
    Quote Originally Posted by zeek0 View Post
    Another solution to this is to make it so that night is dim light, not total darkness. Anyone who has taken a stroll at night knows that your eyes adjust, so there's not a terribly good reason why you should be affected with the blinded condition.
    These two are my personal favorite solutions. In 3.5e, Elves, Gnomes, and Half-Elves had "Low-Light Vision," which allowed them to see twice as far in dim lighting as a Human could, while Dwarves and Half-Orcs possessed full Darkvision, which worked essentially the same as 5e's version. You could just convert the Low-Light Vision ability to 5e by removing the penalty for working in dim light, while still not allowing them to see in utter darkness without a source of light.
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    Default Re: How to cut out Darkvision?

    In my games I usually give elves eaglevision (reduced to seeing up to 120 feet away as if that distance was only 2 feet away) and dwarves get 10 ft. echolocation (there's a reason why they sing while mining). Those are two of the more common races for PCs to play, so it ends up heavily reducing the number of darkvision characters.
    Last edited by Terra Reveene; 2017-10-01 at 07:06 AM.

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    Default Re: How to cut out Darkvision?

    Quote Originally Posted by Terra Reveene View Post
    In my games I usually give elves eaglevision (reduced to seeing up to 120 feet away as if that distance was only 2 feet away) and dwarves get 10 ft. echolocation (there's a reason why they sing while mining). Those are two of the more common races for PCs to play, so it ends up heavily reducing the number of darkvision characters.
    I am a dwarf and I'm digging a hole! Diggy diggy hole, diggy diggy hole!

    I'd be wary of giving blindsight (or even sense) to a race like that. It's pretty powerful.
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    Default Re: How to cut out Darkvision?

    It'd be fine.

    One suggestion, though: remove Darkvision from most monsters, too.

    Make it a rare and scary thing, practically encounter-defining, when a monster can see you in total darkness.

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    Default Re: How to cut out Darkvision?

    I just remove it.

    Mostly it's that I really don't like having different base visual ranges in the same party. I don't want to have to narratively split what most of the party sees vs. what the darkblind member does. Partially it's because in a world where almost everybody has darkvision, normalizing vision is more of a buff to the few people who don't have it than a nerf to the people who do. (And with the exception of vhumans, few races without darkvision are topping the lists for most powerful races.) And ultimately, if everybody has the same level of eyesight, normal vision allows more gradations than darkvision's "magical darkness" or "lit".

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    Default Re: How to cut out Darkvision?

    Quote Originally Posted by Terra Reveene View Post
    In my games I usually give elves eaglevision (reduced to seeing up to 120 feet away as if that distance was only 2 feet away) and dwarves get 10 ft. echolocation (there's a reason why they sing while mining). Those are two of the more common races for PCs to play, so it ends up heavily reducing the number of darkvision characters.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    One suggestion, though: remove Darkvision from most monsters, too.

    Make it a rare and scary thing, practically encounter-defining, when a monster can see you in total darkness.
    This is good stuff. Thank you guys.
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    I may tend to come across as negative, as I usually post when something is wrong or to winge, but I really like this game so far and I'm having loads of fun. Thank you everyone for making it such a great experience!


    Quote Originally Posted by DM
    You are walking down the hallways following the map. You make a left turn, two right turns, step over a tripwire, and turn into a secret door.
    Quote Originally Posted by Player
    I turn into a secret door? Dang the traps in this place are OP!

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    Default Re: How to cut out Darkvision?

    Drop any creature that doesn't live in the underdark from darkvision to just the lowlight half of darkvision. That's most elves, most gnomes, half-orcs and half-elves. Or if you prefer half the distances for those who races.
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    Default Re: How to cut out Darkvision?

    Quote Originally Posted by Potato_Priest View Post
    So, one thing that pains me and a couple other players at our table is the ubiquitousness of darkvision among the races.

    Whenever the DM is trying to set the mood with a nice spot of gloom, they are answered with a moodkilling chorus of "Oh, I have darkvision, so I don't have to worry about that! What's over here?" If the DM wants to rub in the gloom aspect they then have to add in magical darkness, which is nigh-on impenetrable to everything, amazingly difficult to get rid of, and suspension-of-disbelief breaking in large quantities.

    One of my friends has taken to adding in "magical darkness that can be penetrated by mundane sources of light" just to get darkvision out of the equation. It seems to me that removing it would be the simpler option.

    Thus, I've got a couple questions for the bright folks of the forums.

    If you took darkvision away from everyone except drow and kobolds without a replacement, would it really muck up the balance that badly, or can the change just be brushed under the rug with an "eh, they're still not as lame as dragonborn"?

    Is there another good feature you can throw in there that will keep things kosher?

    If you have answers to either of these questions or any other suggestion, I'd love to hear it.
    People don't understand what darkvision is. If you are in darkness you can see UP to 60ft as if you were in dim light. Meaning first you can't see pass 60ft. And next any checks using your sight is at disadvantage. Now with in dim light you can see as if your in bright light.

    Now I hold monsters to a different standers.

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    Default Re: How to cut out Darkvision?

    Quote Originally Posted by Throne12 View Post
    People don't understand what darkvision is. If you are in darkness you can see UP to 60ft as if you were in dim light. Meaning first you can't see pass 60ft. And next any checks using your sight is at disadvantage. Now with in dim light you can see as if your in bright light.

    Now I hold monsters to a different standers.
    I do understand that, and still want to get rid of it.
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    I may tend to come across as negative, as I usually post when something is wrong or to winge, but I really like this game so far and I'm having loads of fun. Thank you everyone for making it such a great experience!


    Quote Originally Posted by DM
    You are walking down the hallways following the map. You make a left turn, two right turns, step over a tripwire, and turn into a secret door.
    Quote Originally Posted by Player
    I turn into a secret door? Dang the traps in this place are OP!

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    Default Re: How to cut out Darkvision?

    I agree with the other posters who suggested turning darkvision into low-light vision to achieve this and retaining darkvision for some monsters.

    But, I will add that if you're considering doing this, it does affect the mechanical balance of the races somewhat. This isn't so bad for races that are already reasonably powerful in 5e (Half-Elf, Elf, Dwarf), but it stings a bit for the ones that are already a little weaker than the baseline (Gnome, Half-Orc). So you might want to give a small boon to those races to offset that.

    Granted, I know others might not necessarily agree on which races are most balanced in 5e. My point being that this does have some small mechanical effect.

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    Default Re: How to cut out Darkvision?

    Gnomes without Darkvision get...

    - Advantage on Int, Wis, and Cha saving throws. In my experience, this is the major advantage of the Gnome race, no pun intended.

    Plus either:

    Forest - Free Minor Illusion cantrip & speak with animals at-will; or
    Rock - Intelligence (History) Expertise, except worse & Tinker (mechanical Thaumaturgy, except worse)

    One of those choices seems strong & solid. The other seems kinda weak. Adding Darkvision is either unnecessary (for Forest Gnomes who have the game's best cantrip, plus a niche utility & investigation option), or is insufficient (for Rock Gnomes who kinda suck anyway).


    What the Gnome race needs is a second & third Intelligence class so their major racial ability bonus isn't going into a class dump stat.

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    Default Re: How to cut out Darkvision?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Gnomes without Darkvision get...

    - Advantage on Int, Wis, and Cha saving throws. In my experience, this is the major advantage of the Gnome race, no pun intended.

    Plus either:

    Forest - Free Minor Illusion cantrip & speak with animals at-will; or
    Rock - Intelligence (History) Expertise, except worse & Tinker (mechanical Thaumaturgy, except worse)

    One of those choices seems strong & solid. The other seems kinda weak. Adding Darkvision is either unnecessary (for Forest Gnomes who have the game's best cantrip, plus a niche utility & investigation option), or is insufficient (for Rock Gnomes who kinda suck anyway).


    What the Gnome race needs is a second & third Intelligence class so their major racial ability bonus isn't going into a class dump stat.
    My idea of race balance is based primarily on this points breakdown for each of the 5e races.

    Accepting this analysis, gnomes and half-orcs are among the three weakest races in the game, and removing darkvision (or nerfing it) bumps them down another peg.

    But yeah, agree absolutely on the game needing more Intelligence-based classes.
    Last edited by Plantae; 2017-10-19 at 03:39 PM.

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    Default Re: How to cut out Darkvision?

    Quote Originally Posted by Plantae View Post
    My idea of race balance is based primarily on this points breakdown for each of the 5e races.

    Accepting this analysis, gnomes and half-orcs are among the three weakest races in the game, and removing darkvision (or nerfing it) bumps them down another peg.

    But yeah, agree absolutely on the game needing more Intelligence-based classes.
    I don't know if that analysis is valid -- from what I can see, it's saying that Forest Gnome == Rock Gnome, and I think that's incorrect.


    My whole point is that Rock Gnomes suck, and they need help regardless of whether Darkvision exists or not.

    Forest Gnomes get one of the best cantrips in the game, plus a niche spell with unlimited uses. They need creativity to play -- you need to find situations where speaking to small beasts will help the party's goals, and illusions are all about imaginative usage -- but they bring a lot to the table.


    That said, you could easily add some special Gnomish feature to either or both types of Gnome to compensate for lack of Darkvision. They're not top-tier with Darkvision, so throwing them a bone won't break the game. (Probably.)

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    Default Re: How to cut out Darkvision?

    So reading this thread has led me to thinking about this problem in Pathfinder. So I created a similar thread with what I propose to do about it. I will edit as I get feedback/think of appropriate changes/etc. Feel free to have a look and tell me what you think. I think my suggestion may also work for 5e.

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    Default Re: How to cut out Darkvision?

    You could take away the elves etc darkvision and give them low-light vision instead?
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    Default Re: How to cut out Darkvision?

    Don't forget that darkvision is in black and white.
    That weird splotch on the wall? is it blood? paint? something worse? You don't know!!
    But I would agree with low light vision.

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    Default Re: How to cut out Darkvision?

    yeah, I'm all for removing darkvision for most races and monsters save a few archetypal ones (devils, demons, shadows, vampires etc) and the most typical underdark races (drows, kuo-toas etc). Even there, I like the concept that plants and creatures forced to live forever without light evolve to produce their own, or live in symbiosis with luminescent organisms.

    plus, an army of torch-bearing orcs is intimidating...
    Last edited by Laurefindel; 2017-11-06 at 09:12 PM.
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    Default Re: How to cut out Darkvision?

    Quote Originally Posted by Laurefindel View Post
    yeah, I'm all for removing darkvision for most races and monsters save a few archetypal ones (devils, demons, shadows, vampires etc) and the most typical underdark races (drows, kuo-toas etc). Even there, I like the concept that plants and creatures forced to live forever without light evolve to produce their own, or live in symbiosis with luminescent organisms.

    plus, an army of torch-bearing orcs is intimidating...
    Oooh, just thinking about that army is sending shivers down my spine. Thousands of pricks of light in the darkness and a rhythmic guttural chanting sounds and looks like the end of the world.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DM
    You are walking down the hallways following the map. You make a left turn, two right turns, step over a tripwire, and turn into a secret door.
    Quote Originally Posted by Player
    I turn into a secret door? Dang the traps in this place are OP!

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    Default Re: How to cut out Darkvision?

    If you want to remove darkvision, IMO it should be stripped from everything that is not innately connected to darkness (I wouldn't even allow all fiends and undead to have it, only the ones with special shadow natures like shadow demons and shadows, I wouldn't even give this to balors and liches except for unique individuals). If I was implementing this as a houserule, i'd even push back the levels that shadow sorcerers and warlocks can get such abilities and implement extra limits, such as requiring stealth proficiency and appropriately thematic patrons and such. Give underdark creatures something akin to low-light vision from 3.5 and give them extra advanced knowledge of bio-luminescent fungus and such.

    Also, if doing this remember to use some common sense about light and darkness when stealthing: anyone can see someone near a light, and you should at least get advantage if not an auto-win whenever someone is in the shadows but between you and a light, etc. Also, keep in mind that the reason you don't move a full speed when stealthing is because you need to take your time and feel out every single footstep, not just to make sure you don't make a noise but to make sure you don't trip over or bump into something you can't see. The Rogue Blindsense ability is basically from a rogue doing this so much that they can do it in their sleep by that level. You can even throw in tactile trapfinding (testing with your toes and fingers to detect subtle height and texture differences, as well as points where less than perfect fits might allow shifting around a pressure plate) as another reason for a rogue scouting ahead of the party to be going slow, albeit he'd still largely need the party to bring a light to him or otherwise light up if he wants to properly see what he's doing.
    Last edited by Avigor; 2017-11-06 at 11:36 PM.
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    Default Re: How to cut out Darkvision?

    I vote for making darkvision a class based feature and not a racial feature.

    The rogue is just that damn good.

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    Default Re: How to cut out Darkvision?

    when you want to mess up vision, maybe use mists? they can get similar effects, are realitivly logical, and players often have to get creative.
    Just watch out for gust of wind

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    Default Re: How to cut out Darkvision?

    Quote Originally Posted by JMS View Post
    when you want to mess up vision, maybe use mists? they can get similar effects, are realitivly logical, and players often have to get creative.
    Just watch out for gust of wind
    It's mostly the atmospherics and the realistic-ness of mists vs darkness being in different places that makes us want to dispose of the darkvision.
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    I may tend to come across as negative, as I usually post when something is wrong or to winge, but I really like this game so far and I'm having loads of fun. Thank you everyone for making it such a great experience!


    Quote Originally Posted by DM
    You are walking down the hallways following the map. You make a left turn, two right turns, step over a tripwire, and turn into a secret door.
    Quote Originally Posted by Player
    I turn into a secret door? Dang the traps in this place are OP!

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