[3.5] Trying to improve Monk, Battle Dancer, and Ninja.

[Luccan]

For a game idea focused around tier 3 casters gestalted with lower tier mundanes, I was trying to figure out how to make these three classes equal (and not go so far that they risk outclassing another class too much).


My initial thoughts were: give Monk and Ninja full BAB, Monk and Battle Dancer 6+int skills, and give Battle Dancer Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, Knowledge (Local), and Sense Motive as class skill, but then I got to thinking:

When I started reading Battle Dancer, I was prepared for a weird Bard/Monk hybrid, except dancing, but what I got was disappointment, as the only ability which comes close is Dance of Reckless Bravery. So I got to thinking, if Battle Dancers got a similar ability to Bardic Music, but the continuing effect was dependent on being in sight of their allies/enemies (and continuing for the however many rounds after, I forget), how much better would they be? I would think they'd advance a fair bit, but I don't want them to completely outclass the Monk or Ninja.

I'm actually most concerned about the Ninja falling behind, looking at my list of changes: Monk would still have clear advantages over Battledancer, though Battledancer would be more of a team player. Monk still has ACFs and bonus feats to play with, as well as most of their abilities just working. Ninja... They still seem like a crappy Rogue/Monk hybrid, but with better BAB.

Keeping in mind I'm not trying to boost them too much and I want to keep them lower tier, I could use some advice. Critique of my methods and ways you might do it are both appreciated.

[SirNibbles]

1. Remove the cap on Monk's Unarmed Strike damage. Monk 1, Superior Unarmed Strike, Monk's Belt, and Monk's Tattoo gets you 14th level Unarmed Strike damage, which means by 7th level you're maxed out and anything beyond that gives no extra damage.

2. Give Monk spells or Ki effects of some sort.

3. Battle Dancer's dances need a complete rework. Dances should be somewhat like Martial Stances and Manoeuvres (Tome of Battle). Some of them should be (Ex) instead of (Su) so that they could function in AMFs.

4. Change Sudden Strike to Sneak Attack.

5. Allow for some method of Ki regeneration, such as meditation or Ki from successful hits.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Giving the Battle Dancer full-on Bardic Music would actually be pretty neat. Move Dance of the Springing Tiger up a bit, add more social skills as you suggest, and you'd have a pretty solid Cha-based warrior type. (Especially since it would mean that Snowflake Wardance is on the table).

The Ninja mostly needs more Ki, though a sturdier chassis and full Sneak Attack wouldn't go amiss. Changing it to a per-encounter type resource like the Factotum's Inspiration Points would go a long way; the class otherwise gets a fair set of skills and a bunch of useful magic-y bits.

The Monk... we all know the Monk strategies. More BAB, less MAD, better movement abilities, and some more skill-y stuff. Heck, you could probably smoosh them together with the Ninja.

[ngilop]

I gave the monk invocations and buffed up their original abilities a bit... once a week stuff was weak to me


I slapped casting on the Ninja and gave them sneak attack as well as class abilities that improved their sneaking and assassination skills.


I guess teach the battle dancer the Macarena?

[Luccan]

Giving the Battle Dancer full-on Bardic Music would actually be pretty neat. Move Dance of the Springing Tiger up a bit, add more social skills as you suggest, and you'd have a pretty solid Cha-based warrior type. (Especially since it would mean that Snowflake Wardance is on the table).

The Ninja mostly needs more Ki, though a sturdier chassis and full Sneak Attack wouldn't go amiss. Changing it to a per-encounter type resource like the Factotum's Inspiration Points would go a long way; the class otherwise gets a fair set of skills and a bunch of useful magic-y bits.

The Monk... we all know the Monk strategies. More BAB, less MAD, better movement abilities, and some more skill-y stuff. Heck, you could probably smoosh them together with the Ninja.

In a way, Monk and Ninja are almost asking to be combined. They have so many not-a-fully-developed-systems in common, I'm almost surprised ninja doesn't have unarmed strike damage (almost, because of course, that'd be way too good). Obviously Rogue still has skills on it, but if ninja had rechargeable ki and full sneak attack, doesn't it kind of stand to outclass the Rogue's usual shtick?

What level do you think Springing Tiger is good for? I like the ability too, but they get it so late, you should probably just go Spirit Lion Barb in the first place.

[Grod_The_Giant]

In a way, Monk and Ninja are almost asking to be combined. They have so many not-a-fully-developed-systems in common, I'm almost surprised ninja doesn't have unarmed strike damage (almost, because of course, that'd be way too good). Obviously Rogue still has skills on it, but if ninja had rechargeable ki and full sneak attack, doesn't it kind of stand to outclass the Rogue's usual shtick?

I kind of agree... on both counts, I guess. Probably best to stick with Sudden Strike. (And maybe bump Rogue up to a d8, while you're in there). For the Monk/Ninja, you could let people pick up Trapfinding and Poison Use in place of a bonus feat, and your choice of Sudden Strike or Flurry. Wholeness of Body, Abundant Step, and Quivering Palm could easily get ki costs...

What level do you think Springing Tiger is good for? I like the ability too, but they get it so late, you should probably just go Spirit Lion Barb in the first place.

Honestly, I wouldn't mind putting it at 1st. As you said, Spirit Lion exists as a strictly superior form of the ability, and the DC 20 Tumble check is its own subtle form of level-gating.

[Luccan]

I gave the monk invocations and buffed up their original abilities a bit... once a week stuff was weak to me


I slapped casting on the Ninja and gave them sneak attack as well as class abilities that improved their sneaking and assassination skills.

I'll definitely buff the Monks uses per X times. Possibly throw together a shared, regenerative Ki system with the Ninja. I'm not gonna give them casting in this instance, because I still want them to be technically mundanes, but I like the idea of giving Ninja casting in future games. You could probably throw the Assassin list on them and be nearly done.

I guess teach the battle dancer the Macarena?

Of course, the most dangerous dance of all

[Luccan]

I kind of agree... on both counts, I guess. Probably best to stick with Sudden Strike. (And maybe bump Rogue up to a d8, while you're in there). For the Monk/Ninja, you could let people pick up Trapfinding and Poison Use in place of a bonus feat, and your choice of Sudden Strike or Flurry. Wholeness of Body, Abundant Step, and Quivering Palm could easily get ki costs...

And you could probably share them between the two classes. I'll need to look at both their class abilities again. I'm really leaning towards combining them. Give them improved Monk chassis, call it the Martial Artist going with any choice is still valid for the class name (I just like it better that way).

Honestly, I wouldn't mind putting it at 1st. As you said, Spirit Lion exists as a strictly superior form of the ability, and the DC 20 Tumble check is its own subtle form of level-gating.

Yeah, I think you're right. Especially since both Ninja and Monk (or their hybrid) get unique class abilities at first level.

[Thurbane]

My quick'n'nasty fix for Battle Dancer is to give them the Maneuver/Stance progression and mechanics of a Swordsage, and change all the Wis based mechanics of their maneuvers to Cha based.

[Luccan]

My quick'n'nasty fix for Battle Dancer is to give them the Maneuver/Stance progression and mechanics of a Swordsage, and change all the Wis based mechanics of their maneuvers to Cha based.

That could work, but given the nature of the game, I'm thinking if I include ToB, Maneuvers will probably land on the magic side of the gestalt. Tier 3 and all that. Then again, I guess that would just mean Battle Dancer gets moved to that side, too.

[Fouredged Sword]

I have always liked the idea of giving monk the ability to make a free move action that can only be used on their turn to actually move or physically interact with the environment at 1/encounter at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level. Give them a free attack action they can take as an immediate action 1/encounter at 7th, 14th, and 20th. At 20th let them make a single full attack as an immediate action 1/day. Replace flurry of blows with the mechanic from snapkick. Then add full bab and better skills.

Basically monks train to be highly mobile and fast with their hands to the point that they can do more in any given timeframe than any other. Their hands move without thought to act unexpectedly though long hours of martial arts training. At the pinnacle of their training they can land countless blows in the blink of an eye without even slowing down between steps.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Instead of reducing MAD by eliminating stat dependencies, I was toying with the idea of class-granted ability score increases, particularly for paladins; the same works for monks, but I haven't thought about it in detail. Paladins would be blessed by their patron, whereas monks perfect themselves.

Mechanically, they get, at every odd level, a one-point increase to their lowest ability score (counting base + racial only) out of a set of four (for the paladin: str/con/wis/cha, for the monk: str/dex/con/wis). If their lowest scores are equal, they can choose which to increase.

At level 10, the paladin would get the celestial template, and after that, scaling angel/archon racial features: Aura of Menace, magic circle against evil, globe of invulnerability. The monk would have to get something else. What, I'm not totally sure of, but it could feature some extra ability score increases, or some SLAs, to make up for the lack of spellcasting.

A monk starting with an array of 14/14/14/10/14/10 (28-point buy) would end up at 15/15/15/10/15/10 at level 5, 16/16/16/10/16/10 at level 11, and 17/17/17/10/17/10 at level 16--throw on some +1/+3/+5 tomes and you're in business. The array is not specialized at all, but that's the idea of the example. You could have 20/16/16/10/16/8 instead, if you prefer. Compared to the same 28-point buy with only level-based increases, it's a very nice improvement.

[Albions_Angel]

Ninjas arnt great in an optimized game, but my first ever character was a pure grey elf ninja, levels 1 through 12, initially with a rogue and a scout in the party (both dropped out over time), and frankly, it was highly enjoyable. Party of 8 (7 playing at any one time, we rotated DMs every week or so), low to mid op (the battle cleric was optimized, but chose to take a back seat until undead appeared and hundreds of damage got dealt!).

I never felt lacking for skills. When the rogue left, I took over, and did everything they could.

Damage felt a little low, but thats a dex based, light weapon problem, not a ninja problem.

Ki was always a worry, but I ended up reading "Enduring Ki" wrong and well...

So Enduring Ki allows you to spend 2 ki as a swift action THIS turn, in order to extend your invisibility over both THIS and NEXT turn (allowing you to do another swift action next turn without having to drop your invisibility). I misunderstood when someone explained it to me on the internet, and ended up not looking it up.

What I thought it did was simply extend ghost step by a turn. Essentially I doubled my ki limit and got a free swift action every turn. And that worked almost perfectly. I took expanded ki pool once, and always had just enough ki for a standard, 3-4 encounter day.

So thats what I would do. I would make Ghost Step last 2 turns for 1 ki, seeing as being invisible is really the ninjas thing. Either that, or I would make it a free action (not swift) to activate on your turn, but double the base Ki pool of the ninja.

Id give them full BAB (Actually, in my games they dont need full BAB, as classes with precision damage get to take Weapon Finesse at first level regardless of BAB). But they dont need much more.

Being invisible more than makes up for the harder to get off Sudden Strike ability. Sure, rogues more easily sneak attack, but you know what, they get hit more often too. Even when the enemies had tremor sense, I was still riding that 50% miss chance. And even a tremor sense or blind sense enemy is denied its dex against an invisible opponent (it knows what square they are in, not what they are doing, though blind sight gives them their Dex).

Does it make them game breaking? No. Does it make them playable? Well I did fine, and actually did rather well.

You are a bit shoe horned (needing Finesse, expanded ki pool, a skill trick or 2, smoke bombs, blindsight blindfold), but no more so than a fighter needing a specific load out.

[AnimeTheCat]

Try giving them all a Ki Pool of a decent size, keyed off of Wisdom (Monk), Int (Ninja), or Charisma (Battle Dancer).

Next, make their class abilities each key off of different abilities (wisdom monk, int ninja, charisma battle dancer) just like their ki pool to reduce MADness (especially for ninja... poor poor ninja...)

Next, make a list of spells or powers that thematically fit the class (illusion/evocation for Ninja, Divination/Alteration/Transmutation Monk, Illusion/Enchantment Battle Dancer for example) and call them Jutsu, Forms, Dances, etc and have them cost an appropriate number of ki points (just like psionics, let's not over complicate things.)

Have them all progress pretty quickly, but pick the jutus, form, dance, etc known and only have those available (just like a psion/wilder/psychic warrior).

Instantly better classes without changing the chassis too much at all, with the ninja getting an extra power boost with the ghost step power and a larger ki pool.