Mutants and Masterminds 3e

[Adme]

Hi, everyone! New to the forum and new to M&M, so I'm kinda trying to figure out both. I've been dissecting premade characters to make sure I properly understand the math behind the point-buy system, and I'm finding myself in a sort of a pickle....There's this one character who has the following powers:

Elasticity (Elongation 4 (120 feet); Enhanced Advantages 4 (Chokehold, Fast Grab, Improved Grab, Improved Hold); Strength-based Damage 3; Mimicry (Feature 1 (Vocal Mimic)); Shapechanger (Morph 3 (Humanoids)); Shapeshifting (Variable 8 (Assumed Forms), Move Action, Limited to Living Creatures).

According to my calculations, it should be : Elongation 4 (4 x 1 point = 4), Enhanced Advantages 4 (4 x 1 point = 4), Strenght-based Damage 3 (3 x 1 points = 3), Feature 1 (1 point), Morph 3 (3 x 5 points = 15), Variable 8, Move Action, Limited to Living People (8 x (7 +1 -1) points = 56 points), for a grand total of 83 points.

Now, the character sheet lists 82 points allotted to powers, so my math must be off somewhere, but I can't figure out where....It could be that Enhanced Advantages have the wrong number of points per rank (it's not listed anywhere, and I just assumed it was an application of Enhanced Trait), or that this Feature comes free (but then why list it as a Feature 1, if that's the case?). Can you guys help me out?

[Anonymouswizard]

While I can't work out where the missing or extra point is, that an incredible waste. Have you checked that the sheet had all the tracks and point values correct?

Shapeshifting (assumed forms) cuts out the need for Morph entirely, you can use the variable points to take Morph (IIRC only ever one rank of it, to represent being humanoid but looking different). You'll want to learn these little tricks to help boost your characters. So that's 71/70 points.

[Beleriphon]

Now, the character sheet lists 82 points allotted to powers, so my math must be off somewhere, but I can't figure out where....It could be that Enhanced Advantages have the wrong number of points per rank (it's not listed anywhere, and I just assumed it was an application of Enhanced Trait), or that this Feature comes free (but then why list it as a Feature 1, if that's the case?). Can you guys help me out?

Enhanced Advantages are an application of Enhanced Trait. The Feature isn't a feature per se until you want to be automatic rather than a function of disguises.

Generally a Feature needs to be useful, like a hidden leg compartment, or something similar but otherwise not part of the normal rules.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Your math looks right. The Feature is one of the example ones, and Enhanced Traits always cost the same as the base Trait, so... dunno. What's the original source?

[Adme]

It's from the DC Adventures: Heroes & Villains Vol. 2. To be fair, I've found other mistakes going forward, so I think it's more of a general problem with the book rather than my math

[JustIgnoreMe]

Ah, DC Heroes is the precursor to M&M3e, so the system and the maths won't always match perfectly.

Also, if it's a single point difference, it's most likely a rounding error somewhere. Not all books are perfect and error free, especially in points-buy systems.

[Beleriphon]

Ah, DC Heroes is the precursor to M&M3e, so the system and the maths won't always match perfectly.

Also, if it's a single point difference, it's most likely a rounding error somewhere. Not all books are perfect and error free, especially in points-buy systems.

Add to that the fact that the DC Adventures characters, especially Heroes and Villains, were written by something like a dozen different authors for each build and there are bound to be a few errors cropping up here and there.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Add to that the fact that the DC Adventures characters, especially Heroes and Villains, were written by something like a dozen different authors for each build and there are bound to be a few errors cropping up here and there.

Especially since most are made to be NPCs (ie, not at a neat pp=15*PL), where the exact point counts are unimportant.

[Spamotron]

Hi everyone I'm trying to create a basic character in order to understand the system. Theme superhuman wrestler with some inspiration from luchadores. PL 10 150 Points

Abilities: Strength 13 (Super Strength Being a Key Concept, 26 Points) Stamina 13 (As tough as strong, 26 Points) Dexterity 0 Agility 7 (acrobatic luchadore, 14 Points) Fighting 7 (Technique is as important as strength to a wrestler, 14 Points) Intellect 0 Awareness 7 (A wrestler is a disciplined and aware martial artist in their own right 14 Points) Presence 0
Dodge 7 Fortitude 13 Parry 7 Toughness 13 Will 7 Initiative 7
Skills: Acrobatics 13 Athletics 7 Throwing 7 Insight 13 Perception 13 Expertise 5 (Pro Wrestler) (29 Points)
Advantages: Chokehold (1 Point), Fast Grab (1 Point), Improved Grab (1 Point), Improved Hold (1 Point), Prone Fighting (1 Point), Fearlessness (1 Point), Great Endurance (1 Point), (Most of the Advantages are self explanatory for a fit well trained wrestler. Fearlessness is in case I have to fight Dracula or the Wolf Man)
Powers: Leaping 7 (Standard way for people with super strength to get around, 7 Points), Affliction 13 (Stunning Headbutt, 13 Points)

How does it look?

Did I understand correctly that there is no point in taking the close combat skill because Strength 13 + Fighting 7 already hits the PL cap?

[JustIgnoreMe]

Disclaimer: I am not currently playing M&M 3e so I am rusty.

You're right about how the PL caps work.

Your defences are at cap, which is right to do.

You have a travel power and a melee attack but currently no ranged attack. You may want one.

You can do more for the points with your powers. Instead of buying Affliction as itself, buy it as an Alternate Effect of your Strength (you'll only be able to headbutt people when you're not using your Strength for other things).

With the points you save, buy some stupid brick tricks or luchador moves (you can make some of them Alt effects too). Groundstrike, Shockwaves, Green Mist... See if you can find Power Profiles and look at Strength Powers and Skill in that.

[Beleriphon]

Hi everyone I'm trying to create a basic character in order to understand the system. Theme superhuman wrestler with some inspiration from luchadores. PL 10 150 Points

Abilities: Strength 13 (Super Strength Being a Key Concept, 26 Points) Stamina 13 (As tough as strong, 26 Points) Dexterity 0 Agility 7 (acrobatic luchadore, 14 Points) Fighting 7 (Technique is as important as strength to a wrestler, 14 Points) Intellect 0 Awareness 7 (A wrestler is a disciplined and aware martial artist in their own right 14 Points) Presence 0
Dodge 7 Fortitude 13 Parry 7 Toughness 13 Will 7 Initiative 7
Skills: Acrobatics 13 Athletics 7 Throwing 7 Insight 13 Perception 13 Expertise 5 (Pro Wrestler) (29 Points)
Advantages: Chokehold (1 Point), Fast Grab (1 Point), Improved Grab (1 Point), Improved Hold (1 Point), Prone Fighting (1 Point), Fearlessness (1 Point), Great Endurance (1 Point), (Most of the Advantages are self explanatory for a fit well trained wrestler. Fearlessness is in case I have to fight Dracula or the Wolf Man)
Powers: Leaping 7 (Standard way for people with super strength to get around, 7 Points), Affliction 13 (Stunning Headbutt, 13 Points)

How does it look?

Did I understand correctly that there is no point in taking the close combat skill because Strength 13 + Fighting 7 already hits the PL cap?

Looks like a pretty straight forward brawler.

And yes, for the Fighting vs Close Combat skill, there's no point in buying up close combat since you hit the max bonus with a Fighting attribute of 7 when your strength is 13.

What kind of complications are you looking at including?

[Spamotron]

Complications are the kind of thing I like to work out in session 0 with the other players and GM so this is a mostly mechanical exercise for now. So if I understand correctly I can make an array of powers that are Alternate Effects of my Strength since that cost 26 Points I can have a power of the same cost for only 1 point provided it can be reasonably extrapolated that it can be done with strength and I can only use one strength ability at a time.

Abilities: Strength 13 (Super Strength Being a Key Concept, 26 Points) Stamina 13 (As tough as strong, 26 Points) Dexterity 0 Agility 7 (acrobatic luchadore, 14 Points) Fighting 7 (Technique is as important as strength to a wrestler, 14 Points) Intellect 0 Awareness 7 (A wrestler is a disciplined and aware martial artist in their own right 14 Points) Presence 0
Dodge 7 Fortitude 13 Parry 7 Toughness 13 (Impervious 13 Points), Will 7 Initiative 7
Skills: Acrobatics 13 Athletics 7 Expertise 1 (Pro Wrestler) Insight 13 Perception 13 Ranged Attack 7 (Throwing) (27 Points)
Advantages: Chokehold (1 Point), Fast Grab (1 Point), Improved Grab (1 Point), Improved Hold (1 Point), Fearlessness (1 Point), Great Endurance (1 Point), (Most of the Advantages are self explanatory for a fit well trained wrestler. Fearlessness is in case I have to fight Dracula or the Wolf Man)
Powers: Earthquake Stomp (Blast 8, Area: Burst, Alternate Effect of Strength, 1 Point/24 Points), Leaping 7 (7 Points), Stunning Headbutt (Affliction 13, Resisted by Fortitude, Penetrating 13, Alternate Effect of Strength, 1 Point/26 Points), Throw Heavy Thing (Blast 13 Alternate Effect of Strength, 1 Point/26 Points)

Does this look more effective? Is Impervious Toughness worth it or are the points better spent on something else?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Complications are the kind of thing I like to work out in session 0 with the other players and GM so this is a mostly mechanical exercise for now. So if I understand correctly I can make an array of powers that are Alternate Effects of my Strength since that cost 26 Points I can have a power of the same cost for only 1 point provided it can be reasonably extrapolated that it can be done with strength and I can only use one strength ability at a time.

Not quite-- you can have a Strength-based array, as per the Strength Power Profile, but it's based on the "built-in Damage" power, not your full Strength. So with Strength 13, you have 13 points to play with for alternate effects. So, looking at your alternate things, you could build them like...

• Earthquake Stomp: Too expensive right now, but you could do "Close Burst Damage 13, Limited to Targets on the Ground."
• Stunning Headbutt: Close Affliction 13
• Throw Heavy Thing: This... probably isn't going to fit. But! You can already throw things with Strength and deal damage-- all you need to do is grab a few ranks of Ranged Combat (Throwing).

[Spamotron]

Not quite-- you can have a Strength-based array, as per the Strength Power Profile, but it's based on the "built-in Damage" power, not your full Strength. So with Strength 13, you have 13 points to play with for alternate effects. So, looking at your alternate things, you could build them like...

• Earthquake Stomp: Too expensive right now, but you could do "Close Burst Damage 13, Limited to Targets on the Ground."
• Stunning Headbutt: Close Affliction 13
• Throw Heavy Thing: This... probably isn't going to fit. But! You can already throw things with Strength and deal damage-- all you need to do is grab a few ranks of Ranged Combat (Throwing).

Does Affliction have to be specified as Close? I thought it was that by default.

As for Earthquake Stomp let me try to understand what you did. Take Blast 13 (26 Points) add Area Burst (39 Points) subtract the Limited Flaw: can only hit targets on the ground (26 Points) and subtract the Reduced Range Flaw (13 Points) for the final description of Earthquake Stomp (Damage 13, Close Burst, Limited to targets on the ground). That works.

As for Ranged Combat (Throwing) both previous versions of the character already have it.

For my final point to replace Throw Heavy Thing, how about increasing my mobility options by adding Speed 7 (Alternate Effect of Leaping) call the two effects together Mighty Legs or something.

So the current version would look like:

Abilities: Strength 13 (26 Points) Stamina 13 (26 Points) Dexterity 0 Agility 7 (14 Points) Fighting 7 (14 Points) Intellect 0 Awareness 7 (14 Points) Presence 0
Dodge 7 Fortitude 13 Parry 7 Toughness 13 (Impervious, 13 Points), Will 7 Initiative 7
Skills: Acrobatics 13 Athletics 7 Expertise 1 (Pro Wrestler) Insight 13 Perception 13 Ranged Combat 7 (Throwing) (27 Points)
Advantages: Chokehold (1 Point), Fast Grab (1 Point), Improved Grab (1 Point), Improved Hold (1 Point), Fearlessness (1 Point), Great Endurance (1 Point)
Powers: Earthquake Stomp (Damage 13, Close Burst, Limitation: Can only hit targets on the ground, Alternate Effect of Strength, 1 Point), Mighty Legs (Leaping 7, Alternate Effect Speed 7, 8 Points) Stunning Headbutt (Affliction 13, Resisted by Fortitude, Alternate Effect of Strength, 1 Point)

[Grod_The_Giant]

Does Affliction have to be specified as Close? I thought it was that by default.

Nah, I just wrote it that way for emphasis.

As for Earthquake Stomp let me try to understand what you did. Take Blast 13 (26 Points) add Area Burst (39 Points) subtract the Limited Flaw: can only hit targets on the ground (26 Points) and subtract the Reduced Range Flaw (13 Points) for the final description of Earthquake Stomp (Damage 13, Close Burst, Limited to targets on the ground). That works.

Yup. You also don't have to start with the "Blast" example power-- Damage is the base effect.

As for Ranged Combat (Throwing) both previous versions of the character already have it.

My bad. Then yeah, you're good-- you've already got a Ranged Damage 13 effect, functionally.

For my final point to replace Throw Heavy Thing, how about increasing my mobility options by adding Speed 7 (Alternate Effect of Leaping) call the two effects together Mighty Legs or something.

Sounds good!

So the current version would look like:

And looks good. Should be pretty dang effective in a fight.

[Recherché]

Any good way to get skill in lockpicking or otherwise evading security systems without taking points in the technology skill? I want a character who's an effective thief but not exactly a tech genius.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Any good way to get skill in lockpicking or otherwise evading security systems without taking points in the technology skill? I want a character who's an effective thief but not exactly a tech genius.

Enhanced Skill (Technology), Limited to lockpicking? Or you could ask your GM about using something like Expertise (Security) instead.

[JustIgnoreMe]

Why not use superpowers? Who cares about cameras when you have Invisibility to machines? Insubstantial 4 means you laugh at locked doors.

[Recherché]

Oh she's already invisible some of the time. That's just doesn't always help with breaking into safes stealthily

[Greengold1313]

Hey I am trying to make a pl 8 private detective charecter. Could I post this build please?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Hey I am trying to make a pl 8 private detective charecter. Could I post this build please?

Sure. You can also make a new thread, if you'd like. I know I click on everything that mentions M&M, and JustIgnoreMe and Beleriphon usually arrive pretty quickly too.

[Beleriphon]

Sure. You can also make a new thread, if you'd like. I know I click on everything that mentions M&M, and JustIgnoreMe and Beleriphon usually arrive pretty quickly too.

Its my favourite system, so when I see it pop up I tend to replay ASAP, if only so I can see what somebody else thought of that I didn't.

[Spamotron]

One thing nobody caught with my sample build is that apparently area attacks are limited to PL because there is no check to hit. So with Earthquake Stomp I need to reduce the damage ranks to 10. This frees up 3 points. I'm curious the Reach modifier says it applies to Close effects. Since Earthquake Stomp is a Close Burst can I add reach 3 to make it a 45 foot radius burst?

[Grod_The_Giant]

One thing nobody caught with my sample build is that apparently area attacks are limited to PL because there is no check to hit. So with Earthquake Stomp I need to reduce the damage ranks to 10. This frees up 3 points. I'm curious the Reach modifier says it applies to Close effects. Since Earthquake Stomp is a Close Burst can I add reach 3 to make it a 45 foot radius burst?

Dammmit, you're right. My bad. I don't think Reach would work like you think, though. The "range" part of an Area effect determines where the origin point is; adding 3 ranks of Reach would mean you could place the 30ft burst anywhere within 15 feet of you.

[Spamotron]

That would be a reasonably cool ability in its own right. The only problem is having the descriptor make sense since it's using superstrength to stomp the ground really hard.

[Beleriphon]

That would be a reasonably cool ability in its own right. The only problem is having the descriptor make sense since it's using superstrength to stomp the ground really hard.

Nothing wrong with a rumbly line emanating for a character's foot and then exploding when it gets to a certain spot. That certainly has a comic book feel. If you can imagine Jack Kirby drawing it, then I figure it is 100% fair game.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Just don't forget Immunity 1 (Own Powers), otherwise you'll be real sad.

[Anonymouswizard]

Just don't forget Immunity 1 (Own Powers), otherwise you'll be real sad.

I mean, check with the GM if this is a given, in my experience it normally is (because getting hurt by your own powers is funny the first few times, and then the joke wears off and it becomes a point tax). Check for any other freebies as well, some give them.

[Spamotron]

Just don't forget Immunity 1 (Own Powers), otherwise you'll be real sad.

Well since its now more of a linear shockwave to help the reach make sense changing it from Burst to Line or Cone is pretty simple and no risk of the PC hitting himself.

[Spamotron]

I have a question as to how Linked powers interact with other modifiers. Say I want to create a Disintegration Ray so I take Damage 10 and Link it to Weaken Toughness 10 when I add Ranged do I do it once for a total of 30 points or twice for a total of 40?