Major Creation Question

[kalos72]

So my group, had been using a Malik - Noble Efreeti Ice Assassin to get some free wish SLA's from and then realized a noble djinn has the same wish SLA AND a Major Creation SLA.

Can you use that Major Creation SLA to create a scroll of Major Creation OR can the SLA be used to make say a full grown oak?

There is a side need to expand the Neverwinter Woods and they were thinking about improving the efficiency of their process somehow. Otherwise another thought was that they use the wish SLA to create Feather Token Oak or Fey Cherry trees and then just plant them.

Also, I assume the act of Sim'in a good aligned creature isn't a bad thing if approved of the process?

[Venger]

major creation can't create magic items

[kalos72]

If the scroll is a no what about a full grown tree?

[mattie_p]

Major creation can make vegetable matter with a duration of 2 hours per level. 1 cubic foot per caster level as per minor creation.

Ordinary Trees, are living, lack wisdom and charisma scores, and thus are objects, and eligible for creation. and ineligible for creation which only creates non living vegetable matter. You can make dead trees though.

Good luck with your temporary creepy dead but full grown forest, hope a good story results!

[kalos72]

But if you look up some of the various write ups on Major Creation from a Djinn, they notate vegetable matter is permanent. Not sure where that comes from but...

With that said, surely an oak tree, is an option no?

I am thinking the wish SLA to make feather tokens would be an easier all around solution to expanding a forest.

[Diarmuid]

Why not simply wish for the forest to be expanded?

[mattie_p]

Shows what I get for not rereading djinni. Major creation of vegetable matter is permanent, yes, but you still need to reference minor creation, which specifies unliving veggies

[Venger]

Shows what I get for not rereading djinni. Major creation of vegetable matter is permanent, yes, but you still need to reference minor creation, which specifies unliving veggies

no it's not

[mattie_p]

no it's not

you missed the same thing I did in the monster entry.

[kalos72]

So this works, major creation (created vegetable matter is permanent)?

[RoboEmperor]

So this works, major creation (created vegetable matter is permanent)?

Only if you planar bind a Djinni to do the creation for you.

[mattie_p]

Again, the created trees must be unliving as well, dead creepy corpse trees only.

[Vreejack]

They don't have to be creepy. They could be art objects, like trees carved from large blocks of wood. Heck, mushrooms aren't even allowed.

[kalos72]

I take "non-living" as in not shambling mounds or whatever, not a living breathing sentient thing. Technically, salad isn't alive once you cut it off...

And yes, I mean to have the Djinn cast the major Creation as his SLA...

[mattie_p]

Actually the RAW is very clear on this.

Plant Type
This type comprises vegetable creatures. Note that regular plants, such as one finds growing in gardens and fields, lack Wisdom and Charisma scores (see Nonabilities) and are not creatures, but objects, even though they are alive.

[Jack_Simth]

no it's not

Umm... unless you replied to the wrong person, Major Creation says:

This spell functions like minor creation, except that you can also create an object of mineral nature: stone, crystal, metal, or the like. The duration of the created item varies with its relative hardness and rarity, as indicated on the following table.

So it's like Minor Creation, except for some things about duration and you can also make minerals.
Minor Creation does specified that vegetable matter must be nonliving:

You create a nonmagical, unattended object of nonliving, vegetable matter. The volume of the item created cannot exceed 1 cubic foot per caster level. You must succeed on an appropriate skill check to make a complex item.

(emphasis added)

[Bohandas]

But if you look up some of the various write ups on Major Creation from a Djinn, they notate vegetable matter is permanent. Not sure where that comes from but...

With that said, surely an oak tree, is an option no?

Within the size constraints and it might still be dead; although the latter can be corrected with the wish SLA

[kalos72]

So a tree, even though living to some degree, is still an object. Major Creation can make object of vegetable matter. A Noble Djinn casting Major Creation can make a permanent tree then... of between 7-21 cubic feet of matter based on the size of the Noble Djinn.

[mattie_p]

Except that Jack_Smith reposted the pertinent rules where minor creation mandates the vegetable matter must be unliving. You may use this ability to make an unliving tree, whatever that means. It would mean, at a minimum, it would no longer grow and reproduce. Would it be green? Maybe. A branch cut from a tree stays green until it wilts and browns. Some cuttings can grow anew (although if created this way, would not).

I like the idea of green static and slowly rotting trees, thus my fascination with calling it creepy, but if you don't want creepy trees then refluff it otherwise. But they won't be alive.

[kalos72]

Sorry but what sense does that make, Major Creation a 5th level spell that creates only dead plants? Not sappron or tomatoes or wheat, unless its brown and dead...

The question is what is considered living versus non-living. Technically we could extend that to alive and undead, cause technically undead aren't...alive? And what would be the point of saying its permanent if its not real plant/vegetable material? Why do you need permanent dead flowers?

That just doesnt make sense to interpret, and that is an interpretation, dead versus non-living that way imho.

[mattie_p]

Doesn't really have to make sense does it. It's magic. It's the RAW.

[kalos72]

Thats an interpretation of RAW, imho, that doesnt make sense.

Living as in a living breathing creature and living as in a daisy are NOT the same thing. Unliving is not the same as dead, or else it would say dead.

[Jack_Simth]

Thats an interpretation of RAW, imho, that doesnt make sense.

Living as in a living breathing creature and living as in a daisy are NOT the same thing. Unliving is not the same as dead, or else it would say dead.

"Dead" is usually reserved for things that were once alive (exceptions are made for doornails). You don't generally say a rock is "dead". You say it's not alive.

[Calthropstu]

Sorry but what sense does that make, Major Creation a 5th level spell that creates only dead plants? Not sappron or tomatoes or wheat, unless its brown and dead...

The question is what is considered living versus non-living. Technically we could extend that to alive and undead, cause technically undead aren't...alive? And what would be the point of saying its permanent if its not real plant/vegetable material? Why do you need permanent dead flowers?

That just doesnt make sense to interpret, and that is an interpretation, dead versus non-living that way imho.

Does this mean I can use major creation to create a shambling mound lich? Woot!

[kalos72]

Does this mean I can use major creation to create a shambling mound lich? Woot!

A Shambling Mound is a living thing right? Not non-living...

[Calthropstu]

A Shambling Mound is a living thing right? Not non-living...

A lich, however, is not.

[Raishoiken]

I'm not sure how people feel about the devices from ravenloft, but since those arent actually magic items couldn't you use major creation to make them?

[Hellpyre]

I know the thread has died down a bit, but the undead argument fails because creatures are not considered objects, and Creation explicitly creates an object.

[Calthropstu]

I know the thread has died down a bit, but the undead argument fails because creatures are not considered objects, and Creation explicitly creates an object.

Lol, we know. I was joking, as were (probably) the others.