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Thread: Use of Undead - A Tangent
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2017-09-24, 11:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Use of Undead - A Tangent
Adding positive energy into the system isn't equivalent to animating the dead either. Creating undead is like knocking holes in a boat, adding positive energy to the universe is like bailing out that boat afterwards, the hole is still there no matter how much you bail out the water rushing in.
Sanity is nice to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.
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Re: Use of Undead - A Tangent
This is something similar I worked on. The relevant part is in the spoiler block at the end. You might like it.
There's a lot of evidence to support the idea that there is SOME connection between an undead creature, and the soul of the person who used to inhabit that body.
Spoiler: Dragon magazine #350
From Dragon #350, which had a Core Beliefs article on Wee Jas, it states:
"Her focus is on the spirits of the dead, not their bodies, and thus she tolerates necromancy-especially if the subject is willing (although she frowns on stealing lawfully-buried bodies). Because she guards the spirits of the dead, she is displeased when these spirits are involuntarily summoned back to the mortal world and corrupted into undead (again, voluntray corruption into undead-bodied or bodiless-does not disturb her). Her belief in the sanctity of death is so strong that her clergy are forbidden from raising the dead by any means without first consulting her (whether directly via commune or indirectly through a divine messenger)."
It is interesting, however, that the article on Wee Jas says that when an undead creature is created, that the soul of said person is summoned from the afterlife and forced into said undead. That shines a whole new light on the other discussion that's been going on in this thread, huh?
Also found this in the Wee Jas article:
"Wee Jas does not appreciate the use of Suel spirits for creating undead, and any arcane spellcaster bent on creating undead should be careful about what sort of spirit his spell draws to the Material Plane. In most cases, undead-creating spell (including animate dead) can be adjusted as they are cast to avoid contacting the remnant of a Suel spirit, and doing so does not alter their casting or effects in any way. A few spells, however, specifically draw on the soul that once inhabited the target body (often intended as a punishment for the dead person)..."
So apparently, the default of undead-creating spells affects the soul of the target body, but animate dead can be altered so that it does not, but other undead-creating spells (presumably the ones that create non-mindless undead) still draw on the target body's soul. This fits in perfectly with the character concept. It even lists Pale Master, Master of Shrouds, and True Necromancer as some of the Prestige Classes that he faithful are likely to follow.
MORE importantly (and not in a Dragon article), is the circumstantial evidence offered up by the core rules:
If a person has been animated into an undead creature, and that creature still exists, no magic can restore them to life.
You can Disintegrate someone's remains, scatter the ashes among several planes, and True Resurrection can bring them back, creating a new body.
But if you get killed by a sword, and some level 5 evil cleric turns your body into a mindless zombie, then True Resurrection cannot create a new body for you (actually, even if your corpse is NOT animated somewhere, TR requires the body to be on hand. Specifically only makes a new body if the old one was destroyed). Even more disturbing, if you get killed by a wraith, and become a new wraith spawn, and your allies recover your physical body without destroying said wraith...you STILL cannot be brought back by True Ressurection.
I know it's circumstantial evidence, but it seems to be a pretty strong indication that there's SOME connection between the undead creature and the soul of the person who used to inhabit the body.
Fun fact, that's the best way to make sure someone stays dead in D&D. Kill the person, animate them as a zombie. Put the zombie in a lead-lined box. Get Dimensional Anchor and anti-locating spells permanently cast on the box. Drop the box into the ocean. Now the person cannot be brought back as long as the zombie exists, but the zombie cannot be summoned. Someone's going to have to physically retrieve that box from the bottom of the ocean. And since it will be difficult, if not impossible, to divine the location of said box, the search for the box must be conducted by visual search.
Agree 100%
The other part of the BoVD quote that Psyren didn't bold is that undead are mockeries of life and purity. And that creating them is a crime AGAINST THE WORLD.
It's not just "bringing in negative energy". It's VIOLATING A CORPSE and turning it into a twisted parody of its former self, in a gruesome pantomime of the works of nature.
The magicks that sustain their existence is evil. That's not to say that Negative Energy is "always evil", which is patently (and provably) false. But the specific way in which that negative energy is used are evil. And since the magicks that animate them are evil, and those magicks-by definition-are omnipresent ion their bodies (as they would collapse if those magicks failed), the rules that support the "mindless undead are evil" means that the rules for beings for evil is "an inherent part of their nature" (much like fiends) supercedes the rules regarding non-intelligent creatures not having an alignment.Red Mage avatar by Aedilred.
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2017-09-24, 11:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Use of Undead - A Tangent
Summoning positive energy doesn't counter the negative energy created by animating undead. If it did that, the Negative in the undead being cancelled out would cause to to de-animate.
EDIT:
IIRC, there are mindless constructs that have an Evil alignment due to being made out of fiendish materials, further providing support to this argument.
Also, my personal headcannonical (but in no way supported) theory: current status of undead is linked to Orcus's portfolio holding sway over them. Since they're in his portolio, all undead derive some of their existence from his power. Thus, animating undead is always evil because it draws upon the fiendish power of the Demon Lord of Undead. If one could find another way to create undead without link (most realistically through slaying orcus again and handing his 'undead ' portfolio to a non-evil god), one could fix this.Last edited by Necroticplague; 2017-09-24 at 11:44 AM.
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Re: Use of Undead - A Tangent
In which case, we're back at Grim Portent's 'bailing out the boat after you punched a hole in it'. Long as the undead exist, they'll continue to spread Negative Energy into the world. Sure, if you do an excellent job bailing, you might be able to keep it afloat, but everyone's gonna be pretty pissed you put the hole there in the first place.
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2017-09-24, 01:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Use of Undead - A Tangent
This.
Even if it were possible to solve this via maths, every undead you animate adds evil at least twice - the negative energy brought by the undead you've created, and the negative energy brought in by any undead that spontaneously show up from you having thinned the veil. And that's before you add in the evil that those uncontrolled undead do before they're caught. Worse, many of those are then capable of spreading even more darkness - making spawn, corrupting areas, haunting etc. It's a cascading effect.
Also, how are you "summoning positive energy" anyway? There is no non-outsider creature type that does that, and as the evidence indicates, outsiders are treated differently. They are in the world, but not part of it (quite literally "outside") so summoning a bunch of xag-yas and xeg-yis won't tip the balance no matter what you do.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2017-09-24, 04:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Use of Undead - A Tangent
Ok summoning wasn't the right word, but a spell that uses or produces positive energy. If high enough level just open a gate to the positive energy plane once a day and that should solve it. I can easily picture a mage working out the energy produced by each spell/undead and keeping it balanced.
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Re: Use of Undead - A Tangent
Which one? I don't know of any spells that would help here. Gate wouldn't (see below).
Gate does two things: planar travel, which works like a precise form of plane shift, or calling creatures, which only pulls creatures through (extraplanar ones at that.) Neither of those would help.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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Re: Use of Undead - A Tangent
Spoiler: GateThe gate itself is a circular hoop or disk from 5 to 20 feet in diameter (caster’s choice), oriented in the direction you desire when it comes into existence (typically vertical and facing you). It is a two-dimensional window looking into the plane you specified when casting the spell, and anyone or anything that moves through is shunted instantly to the other side.
A gate has a front and a back. Creatures moving through the gate from the front are transported to the other plane; creatures moving through it from the back are not.
Whilst it's open positive energy should leak through, the question becomes how many zombies equals a single gate spell for a round
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Re: Use of Undead - A Tangent
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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Re: Use of Undead - A Tangent
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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Re: Use of Undead - A Tangent
Undead are one type of perpetual motion machine that exists, but they are not the only one and, with the exclusion of berserk golems, the others don't have that many dangers. One of the biggest being, the death of the controller causes a massacre if not handled perfectly.
Note however, that the above argument doesn't include the scenario of animating undead temporarily, to jumpstart an industrial revolution (that renders them obsolete). In that case, it shifts closer to a reckless act and not a completely self-indulgent one. Why do this? Because you might not have the resources (XP) to jumpstart one without them, and so you take a risk(a huge one).
Spoiler: Scenario
Bob the Necromancer is an educated man who leads a small settlement. He sees the people toiling in the fields and having no time or resources to educate themselves. Knowing that education is a force multiplier, he begins creating undead, to work the fields(somehow - the way is not important as long as he does not kill to do it) and gives the funds back to the community. Out of his pocket, he pays to construct a large college, and makes sure people spend their newfound free time studying. The next generation is a generation of magecrafters and wizard, who assist Bob in the creation of magic items making the undead obsolete. He then begins destroying his small horde until none remain - but doesn't pause the construction. Bob's Town exports their machines at cost, thus slowly making the world industrialized, and bring about a Golden Age.
In this scenario if Bob had, somehow, not used undead I'd have ruled that the was probably exalted. Since he did, I'd lower it to neutral. He did some extremely evil acts, some extremely good acts, and his intentions were good(If I Recall, BoED does take intentions into account at least partially).
tl;dr: Undead are no permanent solution due to inherent dangers, but the easy nature of their creation just might justify their utilization to initiate an industrial evolution, as long as they are destroyed before they go bananas. There's even an non Golarion in-setting sort of precedent for this, see Monsters of Faerun, good liches, animate dead.
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Re: Use of Undead - A Tangent
I believe this discussion was answered by Spock:
"It has always been easier to destroy than to create."
Bringing negative energy into the world breaks down the fabric upon which mortals exist. It destroys what we subsist of. Its very existence on our plane is destructive (unless you are already undead).
However, just pumping raw positive energy into our plane doesn't simply create what never was or put back together what has been torn apart (it does, but it not simply). In fact, too much positive energy kills just as effectively as too much negative energy.
I'd say it's like money. Invoking negative energy is like armed robbery, where you take something from someone else to profit. Just dumping positive energy into the world to make it better is like tossing some of the stolen money to a homeless person. It's just not quite neutral, because you've still caused far more harm than you've helped, not mention you have no actual investment in giving any real help to the homeless guy.
Now, it gets more balanced if you're pulling a Robin Hood, stealing from illegitimate tax funds and giving back to the people it was wrongfully taken from. Stepping away from the metaphor, you could create undead to save a village, destroy them after, and then heal the sick and injured in the village after.
Not a perfect balance. It's still evil to do it, but you might manage to keep a neutral alignment at the end.
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Re: Use of Undead - A Tangent
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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Re: Use of Undead - A Tangent
Before you get to a "how much" question, you need to first prove that this is possible at all. So far the only spells we know capable of bringing energy in like this are the ones that animate or create undead, as per BoVD and LM.
We also have Fiendish Codex 2 - casting evil spells is a Corrupt act, but no amount of casting [good] or positive energy spells afterward removes that corruption. This goes back to Necrotic's analogy with the hole in the boat.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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Re: Use of Undead - A Tangent
I'm honestly surprised flesh golems aren't evil, since making one involves at least one evil act (Animate Dead is on the list of spells used in their creation).
Interesting, but it also kind of implies that undead ONLY exist because of Orcus. Which could, of course, be an interesting red herring for a high level party, who might believe that they could destroy all undead everywhere if they can just permanently kill Orcus. but, as you said, it's your personal headcanon, so I'm not going to tell you that you are in any way "wrong"
Spoiler: My personal headcanonOff topic, hence the spoiler block, but I have a personal headcanon that has no ACTUAL support from the books, but I see plenty of circumstantial evidence for it. I believe I know the location of Vecna's phylactery.
Vecna was once a powerful lich and ruler of a vast kingdom, right? And he MADE the sword he granted to his lieutenant, Kas. By all accounts, Vecna was an Epic-Level wizard, so how did a FIGHTER (vampire or not) manage to cut through all his personal defenses and sever his hand and cut out his eye?
My suggestion: Because all of Vecna's protection spells failed to recognize the Sword of Kas as an object separate from Vecna himself. Because the Sword of Kas contains Vecna's soul. It was therefore able to pierce all of his magical protections like they weren't even there.
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Re: Use of Undead - A Tangent
So I had a really long answer going into depths about the nature of published settings being organically growing places of adventure that can trivially acomodate a few extra undead kingdoms on the borders.
After all, they do it whenever a new module is released.
But I had a better thought:
If you asked the developer of a published setting
'In my game I was thinking of dropping an evil undead empire into your setting say over their next to Sword and Sandal Egypt'
How do you think said developer would respond?
a) 'Sure there is room in my setting for all sorts of wierd things why there is another such place just next door and I am thinking of ading something similar with my next book.'
or
b) 'No, the forces of good are so well funded and organised that no evil kingdom no matter how stealthy or harmless would be permited to stand. Not for a decade, not for a day!'
So yeah, a game about building up an undead kingdom using the principles of mass manufacture would fit into almost any published D&D kitchen sink setting with no trouble at all.
In fact it would probably stretch believability less than the published module featuring robot dino riders from not barrier peaks.I am rel.
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Re: Use of Undead - A Tangent
If you open a Gate from the Plane of Water to the Prime Material Plane, does water pour through into the PMP? Lets pretend you place the Gate spell on the PoW where it is in the way of the subjective gravity. Would a current/river flowing into the Gate spell go through? I would handwaive the Positive/Negative Planes as working similarly.
That being said, I would be too tempted to start using the Ragnorra Elder Evil elements if someone was regularly openning Gates to the Positive Energy Plane.
In any case, I explain the options from Tome of Necromancy about naturally evil or neutral undead, and ask my Players which option they would like to be part of how the gameworld works.
I do like the whole "getting extra uncontrolled undead" side effect.
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Re: Use of Undead - A Tangent
Neither.
Deathless, as per RAW, are only animated on a temporary basis, to serve a specific goal or accomplish a specific task. They are also created voluntarily. Undead will-unless destroyed-remain around as a mockery of nature, indefinitely. And the corpse to be used has little say in whether or not to become said mockery. To quote Raziel from Soul Reaver, Undeath is rudely inflicted on their unwilling corpse.
So they are not meant to "cancel out" undead, and their temporary nature means they do not "ruin" the material plane.Red Mage avatar by Aedilred.
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Re: Use of Undead - A Tangent
A river is already moving before it gets to the Gate though, and water is material besides. We have no evidence that the ambient energy of a plane behaves similarly, and no evidence for the effect it would have on what the undead are doing even if it did. It's easy to conclude from the rules that undead are walking conduits, or anchors, of negative energy in a way that a mere Gate is not.
In fact, we have reason to believe that a standing gate (i.e. an interface between planes) does not transmit energy of this kind at all. Gate only becomes subtyped (Good, Evil, etc.) if you use the calling function, i.e. if you use it to pull a creature through. If I Gate in an Inevitable, my Gate will be Lawful, but if I simply open a Gate to Mechanus, it is a Creation effect instead, and it won't have an alignment at all.
I'm not here to tell you "this won't work at your table, and you are committing badwrongfun if you even mention it." I'm telling you "this is the baseline the designers have set up, and if your GM decides to simply uphold that status quo, they are not committing badwrongfun for doing so."Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2017-09-25, 02:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Use of Undead - A Tangent
Purity is not defined.
Mocking "life" is not evil. See constructs and deathless. Or the various 3000 ways to become immortal without being undead.
A crime against the world? In this case the world commits crimes against itself when undead arise naturally. A "crime against the world" would be like trying to tear down the deities themselves. Necromancy is part of the world the gods created, even if it is Evil. You've been drinking too much of Pelor's propaganda, I think.
It's not just "bringing in negative energy". It's VIOLATING A CORPSE and turning it into a twisted parody of its former self, in a gruesome pantomime of the works of nature.
There is nothing inherently Good about nature. In fact, druids can be Evil while being entirely natural, and most animals, magical beasts, and plants are neutral. Unnatural != Evil.
The magicks that sustain their existence is evil. That's not to say that Negative Energy is "always evil", which is patently (and provably) false. But the specific way in which that negative energy is used are evil. And since the magicks that animate them are evil, and those magicks-by definition-are omnipresent ion their bodies (as they would collapse if those magicks failed), the rules that support the "mindless undead are evil" means that the rules for beings for evil is "an inherent part of their nature" (much like fiends) supercedes the rules regarding non-intelligent creatures not having an alignment.
They're going to have to uphold that status quo for everything in the setting. If they're only applying the inability to enact significant change to the PCs, I would say that's badwrongfun. Or maybe some kind of horror game.Last edited by Zanos; 2017-09-25 at 02:31 PM.
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Re: Use of Undead - A Tangent
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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Re: Use of Undead - A Tangent
The vast majority of undead are Evil but they don't have the [Evil] subtype, and the [Evil] subtype is used by the game rules to indicate a create that's physically made of Evil, which undead are clearly not.
Sure, there should be consequences, but as I discussed earlier every single Good organization immediately abandoning all of their other concerns and steamrolling you isn't a very realistic one. Establishing a significant empire should be a challenge for a high level character, not something you can do as soon as you can cast animate dead.If any idiot ever tells you that life would be meaningless without death, Hyperion recommends killing them!
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Re: Use of Undead - A Tangent
So what? That just means they're not outsiders. It has nothing to do with how safe they are to employ, the effects they have on the material plane, or any other moral judgement.
I'm not saying that a high level PC couldn't set out to establish such an empire. Just that they'd be deluded if they think they could do so unchallenged, and equally deluded if they think they're the first entity in history to attempt it.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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