[Dreamscarred Press] New Playtest: the Voyager, a psionic skirmisher!

[Deimosaur]

Oh hey, new page.

Playtest link again.

Yes, I was assuming the Fast -Forward Path. But if I were building a character at high level, I think I would take Rewind as my primary and use Bactrack ro get Blink Frenzy as well.

I got a question here. The way you phrased this, are you reading that taking a branched path is an all or nothing choice? Like choosing the first upgrade to Fast-Forward/Rewind/Pause locks you into the rest of that parallel action's choices at later levels? Or is this just shorthand for "I'd take all the rewind branching paths".

It's supposed to be that you're free to take one of the level 6 options, then one of the 12s, then one of the 18s. If it's not clear, please let me know.

any time the character moves he will provoke, quickly depleting your hp, even the Teleporting abilities don't have a clause to prevent provoking.

Point. Got this covered. If parallel actions provoked, it'd be a huge pain overall. Gonna just go ahead and hardcode it:

Using a parallel action does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Likewise, movement and teleportation made as part of a parallel action does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

one other thing, Information Exchange, reads funny. it says you are trained in it. but not how many skill points you get, whether or not you gain the +3 bonus for having at least 1 rank, or anything. I've typed up like 6 different options to try to fix it and deleted every one of them. I think it needs fixed but I don't know what direction you wish to take it. If it were me I would try to model it after an existing similar ability, especially since it is a minor ability.

Gonna take a look at this and think about it. Thanks.
Edit:
Actually, being treated as trained is not the same as having skill ranks in something—something that makes you trained just lets you make checks in a skill that's normally trained-only. For example, this spell lets you be treated as trained, but does not give ranks.

Overall I feel like the class will, be fun if a little heavy on the tracking. If my current character dies I will be trying to slip this past my DM.

Now, I would never hope for someone's character to die, but...

[Prime32]

It occurs to me that when someone can't hit a speedster with regular attacks, they often switch to something that affects a wide area, and/or which will slow them down even on a glancing blow.

So with that and the squishiness in mind, can I suggest replacing Evasion with something along the lines of...

Spoiler: Dumb ideas

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Anticipate (Ex): At 4th level a voyager excels at seeing her opponents' moves coming, and takes half damage from all attacks unless the attacker succeeds on their attack roll by 5 or more. Any additional effects delivered by the attack (such as poison or stunning) continue to function as normal. This ability does not function against critical hits or while the voyager is flat-footed or helpless. In addition it provides no defense against effects which lack attack rolls (such as a fireball spell).

Improved Anticipate (Ex): At 12th level, a voyager's ability to anticipate attacks improves. She gains the benefit of Anticipate on attacks where the attacker did not succeed on their attack roll by 10 or more.

Numbers might need some work, but basically an Armor Class equivalent to Evasion and Mettle, and could potentially make fights more exciting by increasing the odds of "narrow misses". Adding evade burst to their power list would let them still pick up Evasion if they want it.

[OBoyd]

I got a question here. The way you phrased this, are you reading that taking a branched path is an all or nothing choice? Like choosing the first upgrade to Fast-Forward/Rewind/Pause locks you into the rest of that parallel action's choices at later levels? Or is this just shorthand for "I'd take all the rewind branching paths".

I did think that the first time I read through it. It could probably be stated a bit clearer, but the main problem is that there is a lot to absorb.

Am I correct that using Rewind Fate allows the Voyager to set her HP to whatever the targeted creatures were even if that is higher than her normal maximum? It sound probably be spelled out a bit more either way,

[Deimosaur]

Am I correct that using Rewind Fate allows the Voyager to set her HP to whatever the targeted creatures were even if that is higher than her normal maximum? It sound probably be spelled out a bit more either way,

You can't rewind to an afterimage you made of someone else. You can rewind them back to their image and reset their health.

I added some wording that might help clarify in the main text of the rewind ability.

[DiskElemental]

I'm currently putting together a Voyager for an Ironfang Invasion game. We're using Elephant in the Room Feat taxes, 20 point buy, first level start. I'll provide updates as we start to see the class in action, but here are my initial thoughts just from building it.

Race: Human

Stat Array:
Str 12
Dex 17
Con 14
Int 16
Wis 10
Cha 7

Feats:
Weapon Finesse (from Feat Taxes)
Deadly Agility
Dodge
Mobility (rolled into Dodge)

1. It's been said before, but I think it bears repeating. The d6 HD really does feel crippling, and many of my other problems with the class. Even with 14 Con, and FCB into HP, I've still got the least HP in the party by several points. While my AC is an excellent 19, bumping to 22 when I gain momentum, my case is not the norm. Most melee voyagers will realistically be looking at 18 AC, and no Mobility to protect them from the attacks of opportunity they must incur in order to use the Voyagers class features. The small HP pool combined with the fact enemies get twice as many attacks as usual, essentially turns combats into pure luck. Either the enemies get lucky once and kill the Voyager, or they don't, and the Voyager escapes without a scratch. From my perspective, that kind of swingyness isn't particularly fun for anyone at the table.

Thus, I would propose an alternative:
Up the hitdie to d8s, then modify momentum to read as follows:

Spoiler: Momentum Rewrite

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In addition, whenever a voyager gains momentum, she also adds one point of intelligence bonus (if any) per Voyager level as a dodge bonus to her AC for 1 round.

I believe that would do quite a bit to give the Voyager a bit more survivability, while reigning in the ludicrous early game AC that currently defines the class and leaving the endgame untouched.

2. As mentioned in my previous point, AC is more important for Voyager than any other class, which makes choosing to go strength a risky proposition. This focus on Dex makes not having any sort of bonus feats is crippling. For the average non-human Dex Voyager, you're looking at a minimum of 3rd level to get Dex-to-Damage (5th for ALL Voyagers if you don't have access to PoW), and another 3 levels after that to pick up the near-mandatory Dodge and Mobility combo. It makes getting Psionic Body, Fleet, Any of the Combat Maneuvers, and all those nifty feats you've written for the class that much more difficult to obtain.

I would suggest giving either Weapon Finesse, Power Attack, Momentous Maneuvers, or Mobility as a bonus feat at 1st level. It has little effect on the long term power of the class, but relieves a some of the early game feat pressure, letting non-human Voyagers have a bit of wiggle room.

3. Why roll a separate initiative for Parallel Action? Taking a second turn at original count -10 maintains the flavor, but doesn't require any extra math or dice rolling.

4. It could be my own stupidity, but Voyager Knowledge is confusingly worded. I'd rewrite it as follows:

Spoiler: Voyager Knowledge Rewrite

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At 4th level and every three levels thereafter, the Voyager gains Expanded Knowledge as a bonus feat.

5. Information Exchange is a neat idea, but seems under powered, and more than a little confusing, in its current form. I'd make two changes in relation to it.
First, make all Knowledges class skills for Voyagers. The class currently lacks strong out of combat utility, and is Int based, it just makes sense.
Second, rewrite Information Exchange as follows:

Spoiler: Information Exchange Rewrite

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At 2nd level, a voyager can begin to make contact with her other selves to exchange knowledge, gaining insight into a subject that another version of herself is an expert on. The voyager chooses one knowledge skill. She gains a bonus equal to half her class level on checks with her chosen skill, and treats that skill as if she possessed a number of ranks in it equal to her Voyager class level. As a full-round action, the voyager can search her timeline in order to locate a version of herself knowledgeable in another aspect, allowing her to switch this bonus and training to a different Knowledge skill.

Despite all the comments, I do think the class is very creative, and I'm curious to see how it holds up in practice!

[Deimosaur]

2. As mentioned in my previous point, AC is more important for Voyager than any other class, which makes choosing to go strength a risky proposition. This focus on Dex makes not having any sort of bonus feats is crippling. For the average non-human Dex Voyager, you're looking at a minimum of 3rd level to get Dex-to-Damage (5th for ALL Voyagers if you don't have access to PoW), and another 3 levels after that to pick up the near-mandatory Dodge and Mobility combo. It makes getting Psionic Body, Fleet, Any of the Combat Maneuvers, and all those nifty feats you've written for the class that much more difficult to obtain.

I don't know if Mobility is strictly necessary for the voyager. At 1st level, assisted escape is enough to get them out of normal threatened ranges. It'd be nice if you or others could elaborate on this?

But I've heard your view on how many 'core' feats may be needed (or wanted) for a voyager. I will think about it.

4. It could be my own stupidity, but Voyager Knowledge is confusingly worded. I'd rewrite it as follows:

Spoiler: Voyager Knowledge Rewrite

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At 4th level and every three levels thereafter, the Voyager gains Expanded Knowledge as a bonus feat.

I answered the reason why voyager knowledge is worded the way it is on the first page of this thread:

It'd be nice, but there's a possibility of a voyager getting a 2nd level power (etc) earlier than their 4th voyager level. From a PrC that progresses their powers, for instance.

There's a tradeoff here between immediate readability and supporting PrCs, unfortunately...

[DiskElemental]

I don't know if Mobility is strictly necessary for the voyager. At 1st level, assisted escape is enough to get them out of normal threatened ranges. It'd be nice if you or others could elaborate on this?

It may not be, I've yet to put the class on the table. However, my mathfindering and intuition tells me that the aid-another option from Parallel Action is what keeps Voyager on par with every other 3/4 BaB 2-stat class in terms of offense, since all her compatriots have some built-in Buff (Bard Song, Judgement, etc.) to make attacks land consistently. Thus the low level Voyager is stuck choosing between hitting and dealing pitiful damage, hitting and dealing damage but taking an AoO, and probably not hitting but not taking an AoO. Of course, all of the above applies only to a situation where you're facing a single enemy without reach, or who doesn't think to trip you. In an actual combat, I'd expect other enemies, terrain, or a myriad of other circumstances to make a single 5 ft. step insufficient to avoid all AoOs.

There's a tradeoff here between immediate readability and supporting PrCs, unfortunately...

Hmm, fair point, I suppose I missed that on my read through.

What if you added: "Levels in any prestige class that advances Psionic Manifesting stacks with levels of Voyager for purposes of this ability."

[OBoyd]

DiskElemental,

I'm curious as to why you think Dodge/Mobility are required? I have predominantly looking at higher level builds, but if I were building from 1st level I would plan on using Ranged attacks primarily at low levels. Once you hit level 3 you can attack in the middle of a teleport, so don't really need to worry about AoOs.

I do agree that the Class is going to be a bit feat starved. Another possible solution would be to switch the Expanded Knowledge every 4 levels to a Bonus Feat.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

In case anyone missed it, Parallel Action no longer provokes AoOs, making Mobility slightly less mandatory. You're still expected to move a lot in a system that would really prefer you didn't, but it's an improvement at least.

[DiskElemental]

I'm curious as to why you think Dodge/Mobility are required? I have predominantly looking at higher level builds, but if I were building from 1st level I would plan on using Ranged attacks primarily at low levels. Once you hit level 3 you can attack in the middle of a teleport, so don't really need to worry about AoOs.

Because Switch-Hitting isn't a thing that's supported in Pathfinder, in order to hit with that Ranged attack, you're looking at a minimum of two feats (Point Blank and Precise Shot), more if you want to be effective with said attack. Teleporting is hardly a palatable solution, since requires you to spend your parallel action, which is painful at low levels for reasons already discussed, and painful thereafter because a majority of your class features are more parallel actions. In effect, the class has to give up one of its biggest unique features, just in order to not take AoOs every time it wants to deal damage.

As Dr_Dinosaur pointed out, this is a class based around moving, in a system designed to force characters to stand still.

[Deimosaur]

Big(-ish) update. Cliff notes here, actual updates in the playtest document.

• Momentum is getting changed slightly. A voyager now chooses to use momentum when making an attack, and spends all their momentum at once when doing so. Attacks enhanced by momentum now gain a +2 bonus to the attack roll (in addition to the 1d6 damage per point spent). Points of momentum are now cleared at the beginning of the voyager's parallel turn instead of her own, allowing her to build momentum with parallel actions and use it on her own turn.

• Essential training added at second level, lightening the feat taxes for most builds.

• Endless added at 10th, a fluffy feature regarding age. Relevant to this, an update to eternity awaits at 20th level, disallowing a future self from returning to fix a death of old age.

[Galacktic]

Gaining Psionic Body at second level helps a ton with survivability, actually. My Voyager (level 6) gained 14 HP from that, and went from 50 to 64 at level 6. Though, they do have a Fighter dip to make them a touch more durable than they otherwise would. That's honestly more HP (and more AC/saves) than my previous previous character, too.


I'd also recommend adding Amplified Momentum and Weapon Finesse as options to it - and maybe spread out one or two extra bonus feats through it from the same list.

[DiskElemental]

I'd be leery of giving Amplified Momentum for free, especially with the momentum changes.

[Andras Zodon]

Will you be doing an iconic? Are you more of a Quicksilver or a Flash fan?

[Deimosaur]

Will you be doing an iconic? Are you more of a Quicksilver or a Flash fan?

Probably. Gotta think about what I want out of it. And I decline to answer the second question. : P

[Serafina]

So Vital Strike is obviously a very attractive feat for a class that wants to mostly attack via single attacks. And all the Voyagers abilities work with it - except one: Fast-Forward.
If you do want to change that, it could be done with some slight change in wording:
"If she does, she can make a single attack action against any target between the start and end points of the teleport".
Likewise, you could allow other modes of attack if you write in "make a single standard-action attack" instead.

Now, whether you actually want to do that is another matter, of course.
Vital Strike does ultimately not add that much damage. It could be taken at 9th level at the earliest, and would add maybe 1D10 damage or so, and Improved Vital Strike would add about the same again. There are some nice-ish feats that work off it, but ultimately nothing game-breaking.
Allowing standard-action attacks would allow things such as martial strikes, and a lot of abilities gained from various classes. Which is probably fine unless you use it with Speeding Strike and hit multiple targets. Then again, you should be careful with this just to prevent high damage-stacking, so it might be better not to do this bit.

[OBoyd]

So Vital Strike is obviously a very attractive feat for a class that wants to mostly attack via single attacks. And all the Voyagers abilities work with it - except one: Fast-Forward.
If you do want to change that, it could be done with some slight change in wording:
"If she does, she can make a single attack action against any target between the start and end points of the teleport".
Likewise, you could allow other modes of attack if you write in "make a single standard-action attack" instead.

Now, whether you actually want to do that is another matter, of course.
Vital Strike does ultimately not add that much damage. It could be taken at 9th level at the earliest, and would add maybe 1D10 damage or so, and Improved Vital Strike would add about the same again. There are some nice-ish feats that work off it, but ultimately nothing game-breaking.
Allowing standard-action attacks would allow things such as martial strikes, and a lot of abilities gained from various classes. Which is probably fine unless you use it with Speeding Strike and hit multiple targets. Then again, you should be careful with this just to prevent high damage-stacking, so it might be better not to do this bit.

This can actually get significant (although proportionally less so for a Voyager). Enlarged and using a Great Sword base damage is 3d6. IVS (the best we can do without a 4 level dip) is adding 6d6 which is approximately a 33% improvement at lvl. 15 when we can first get it or 25% at lvl. 20. These percentages do not reflect additional damage from bonuses to momentum dice from race, feats, or PP usage.

[Duskwolf]

I have been very interested in this class and the progress of the playtest but I have been having a hard time making it really work. My solution, and this is merely me talking about how I plan to use it in my home game of Iron Gods which is not the average game and not meant as criticism, is to give the class exotic weapon prof firearm and a mount in the form of a psi crystal with crystalized creature to stay within the psionic meme. This seems to handle the movement issues I was dealing with during my theory crafting and making a psi crystal helps in case your mount is taken out. I was actually working with this class for sometime. I really like the class concept even if I am worried about early level survival rates, maybe give a bonus to ac vs attacks of opportunity while using momentum? The doomsayer is actually what I plan on running and will update after my game tonight, my players will have a few encounters so perhaps I will have some feedback afterwards.

[Serafina]

Right, you can get some more damage out of Vital Strike with optimization, but it's still quite the known quantity.


As for firearms: Given that Tracer is perfect inspiration for this class, I almost expect there to be a firearms-related archetype at some point.
Until such a time, I'd honestly just take a single-level dip into Gunsmoke Mystic, which gives proficiency, rapid reload, the option to be independent of ammunition, and some maneuvers and a stance.

I also find this class to be a really interesting fit for a Warhammer Fantasy Wood Elf Waywatcher inspired character. Teleportation combined with ranged attacks is kinda rare to see, yet fits perfectly with skirmishing such as this. You can even flavor all the time-powers and assistance from alternate selves as forest spirits and the like.

[OBoyd]

DuskWolf

The Voyager already gets to add her INT bonus to AC for 1 round after gaining Momentum. A first level Voyager can easily have an 21 AC almost every round. At 2nd/3rd level she'll likely have as many HP as a fighter as well.

[OBoyd]

Big(-ish) update. Cliff notes here, actual updates in the playtest document.

• Essential training added at second level, lightening the feat taxes for most builds.

I would suggest replacing Psionic Body with Weapon Finesse, Power Attack or both. At 2nd level Psionic Body gives a minimum of 6 HP which gives the Voyager the same average HP as a Fighter and potentially an extra 10 HP (1 more than the average Barbarian).

I think going to a D8 would be a better solution to the low level fragility.

[Lord_Gareth]

I would suggest replacing Psionic Body with Weapon Finesse, Power Attack or both. At 2nd level Psionic Body gives a minimum of 6 HP which gives the Voyager the same average HP as a Fighter and potentially an extra 10 HP (1 more than the average Barbarian).

I think going to a D8 would be a better solution to the low level fragility.

D8 is 2 hit points more at first level, and 1.5 hit points on average each level thereafter. Folks seem rather hung up over what is objectively a very small difference.

[Duskwolf]

Yes on the int to ac via momentum, thank you I saw that but honestly had not really worked it to see how effective it was. MY experiences last night, brief though it was, has reaffirmed my faith in dsp which had shaken a bit because of my dislike for the Highlord. The base class seems great enough, and with multi class/gestalt goodness it really shines, the build possibility are staggering. A couple of things, a dip into gunsmoke mystic is actually rather fantastic for only a slight setback (really wish for a variant that uses int) and I suppose harbringer (base, omen rider and edgelord) would all be quite tasty as well. A few questions if I may? Path of war strikes and such can be used with/during momentum? if you have sneak attack could you apply it? How would such standard actions alchemist explosive missile be handled? is there planned a student of the astral suit type feat or trait to class out or prc and keep your momentum damage and accelerate advancement?

Honestly this class me more interested than many I have seen or played in a while. I wish we had a bit more bonus feats and a wider array of powers ( I know the ones chosen fit the class and we get expanded knowledge) but despite my initial glass cannon concerns, I really like the class and think it has a distinct feel.

[OBoyd]

D8 is 2 hit points more at first level, and 1.5 hit points on average each level thereafter. Folks seem rather hung up over what is objectively a very small difference.

Agreed. I do think 6-10 extra "free" HP is too good at 2nd level and should be rethought.

Honestly though, I'd rather see this class with a D6, no free Psionic Body and full caster progression (mainly because I really think it should have access to Divert Teleport, Fission and a couple of additional powers). Failing that, then the additional PP and a condensed list like the Summoner has where it gets some powers a power level or two early.

[Galacktic]

So when the Voyager uses Speeding Strike and is staggered, does that have any effect on their parallel turn? IE could they just use Speeding Strike again by spending their action on readying it?

[Deimosaur]

Power Cycle has been divvied up a bit. The new Kinetic Wave comes online at 8th level, providing some AoE damage potential to savvy voyagers without requiring a branched path. Power Cycle remains at 9th level and has had wording made more clear.

So when the Voyager uses Speeding Strike and is staggered, does that have any effect on their parallel turn? IE could they just use Speeding Strike again by spending their action on readying it?

I believe so. They'd spend their next round staggered too, though.

[Deimosaur]

Update!

Two new archetypes:
The crossfire, who mixes a voyager's time shenanigans with firearms.

The timekeeper, who eschews momentum for the ability to further control events that take place around him.

I've reordered the archetype list into alphabetical order for now, though I'm not opposed to keeping them in a different order. Smallest to largest, less complicated to most complicated?

[Duskwolf]

Yea, as to the crossfire archetype. No thank you, you give up a lot for very little. Still unsure about timekeeper but giving up momentum hurts.

[OBoyd]

Yea, as to the crossfire archetype. No thank you, you give up a lot for very little. Still unsure about timekeeper but giving up momentum hurts.

I may be missing something, but as I'm reading it the Crossfire is given up 10-15' of movement, the ability to aid herself, 1 martial weapon proficiency, and shield proficiency for prof. with all firearms, a gun, gunsmithing, and the ability to load or fix his firearm for free.

[AlienFromBeyond]

Crossfire seems kind of lame and boring. I was hoping for something like Momentum is based on the distance traveled by the bullet instead of your movement, with ricochet type stuff, or really just anything that interacts with the gun more. Was expecting something like a Voyager + Marksman (Kaigun) hybrid I guess.

Timekeeper is pretty interesting though, turning the class into much more of a support role. I question what it can do on its turn without Momentum however, I guess stick to focusing on manifesting powers a lot more? It doesn't really have the PP for that since it has the same base amount as Psychic Warrior, so maybe it should get extra PP to handle all the extra manifesting it wants to do. At the same time, Bottled Moment really doesn't want you chain manifest powers because of the limiter it has until level 17, which puts a massive damper on that plan, so maybe I'm looking at it all wrong for what a Timekeeper is supposed to be actively doing in a fight.