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  1. - Top - End - #121
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RedSorcererGirl

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    Default Re: [Dreamscarred Press] New Playtest: the Voyager, a psionic skirmisher!

    Quote Originally Posted by Deimosaur View Post
    I would say no, but really any answer leads to very awkward conclusions if further explored. Rather similar to discussions of what happens if you cast an area spell with a duration on a moving object.
    You could put in a "choose frame of reference" clause or something, though I suppose that also comes with its own (likely suicidal) awkwardness when people choose "the sun" or "the galaxy's center" (depending on the plane's structure).
    My Homebrew Material, mostly focusing on Dreamscarred Press's Path of War and psionics material!

  2. - Top - End - #122
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    Default Re: [Dreamscarred Press] New Playtest: the Voyager, a psionic skirmisher!

    Big changes are incoming. Link here, as befits a new page.

    Over the course of this playtest, we’ve gotten a lot of feedback on the playstyle of the voyager—how it optimally plays, and how it feels to play—and in response, we’re making some pretty big changes.

    To make a long story short, the changes we’re making are about emphasizing the voyager’s duality as a speedster martial class and as a manifester. In many cases and builds, their powers seemed to be taking a back seat to parallel actions and possible full attacks, especially in the case of Speeding Strike. To help balance the class better, as well as to open up more variety in both builds and gameplay.

    So let’s go over what’s changed:
    Spoiler: The Additions
    Show
    The biggest difference you’ll notice in the voyager doc is the addition of a new, important class feature that replaced branching paths. Called Manifestation of Speed, this ability allows the voyager to spend both power points and momentum on a variety of different abilities in combat.

    The core of the ability is the augmented attack. An augmented attack is a standard action, whose basic function is to to turn momentum into movement, or power points into teleportation, each alongside an attack with your weapon. The maximum amount of power points spent on the ability at once is equal to your ML, which is important to its later functions.

    At 5th level, the most important part of the ability comes online: as part of making an [i]augmented attack[i], a voyager can manifest a single-target voyager power they know on the creature they’re attacking. This doesn’t provoke AoOs, and its attack is added to the hit itself, similarly (but not identically) to the magus’s spellstrike.

    The reason for this addition is that, overall, the voyager previously has not been doing much with its psionics. It’s a manifester, more than just a normal warrior, and its abilities were meant to (but failed to) reflect that. By tying the psionics more deeply into the voyager’s mobile-skirmisher combat style, and allowing them to both attack and manifest, we hope they blend swordplay and psionics a bit better. Or bow usage, gunslinging, and the like—the power does not need to be the same sort of delivery as the attack; you can use this to shoot melee powers at people, hit people with ranged powers, and anything in-between. We’ve loaded up the voyager list with more options to help accomplish that.

    Though speaking of new powers, that brings us to the next parts of Manifestation of Speed. At 9th level, the voyager unlocks lightning focus, which lets them transform momentum into psionically refocusing themselves, and can now use a personal power on themselves with power channel. At 13th and 17th levels, they unlock multitask and greater multitask, respectively.

    These abilities, like power channel, are meant to help the voyager become a true combat manifester. During their augmented attacks, they allow the voyager to manifest more powers than just single-target ones, and even multiple powers at once, albeit limited: they can’t spend more power points total than their manifester level on these powers, but within that limit, they can mix and match abilities how they please. This means that a 13th-level voyager can trade a bunch of momentum for a particularly unique action economy, using their time-enhanced speed to manifest two powers at once during their attack. Then, at 17th level, the voyager can manifest three powers at once. Potentially more, if they went all-out with Quicken and Hustle powers, actually.

    Our hope is that these abilities get the voyager to a place where it can be a speed-based manifesting gish class. They’re not purely martial, nor purely caster, but ideally, the options on their power list, and versatility with augmented strikes, lets them accomplish a good mix of both in any given combat.

    Spoiler: The Power List
    Show
    The voyager power list, previously very small, has been expanded to a size similar to the psychic warrior’s. Our goal with this is to have a healthy mix of combat buffs/utility, debuffs and enemy-targeting effects, and noncombat utility at any given level, allowing the voyager to pick and choose how focused on any given task they want to be, then realize that focus using augmented attacks.
    In addition, we’ve updated the look of the power list in the playtest doc, which should hopefully make it easier to parse. The powers now include their short descriptions and links to their effects on the d20pfsrd. The single-target powers on the list have also been marked as such, to make them quicker to skim through when looking for power channel options.

    Finally, don’t forget that even with this expanded list, the voyager still has Voyager Knowledge, letting them poach powers from other lists. If you want your voyager to be focused on mind control, or elemental blasting, or some other niche, the new abilities should help you create that sort of character.

    Spoiler: The Removals
    Show
    With that all said, these new changes did involve removing some of the existing abilities. Branching Paths, Kinetic Wave, Power Cycle, and Parallel Training have all be taken off of the current voyager chassis. As it was, the model used for Branching Paths encouraged a playstyle of focusing heavily on one specific trick, to the exclusion of other things. While voyagers could use other options, the question we heard a lot is “why bother?”

    Fast-Forward and Speeding Strike were overcentralizing, and the effects of the other branched paths, when taken in isolation, didn’t manage to carry the class as a versatile combat-psionicist. Most of the effects of the old Branching Paths can be found somewhere in their powers list, but as far as the voyager’s progression of abilities, we wanted to tie it more on their identity as a psionic class.
    Power Cycle, Kinetic Wave, and Parallel Training were all, effectively, iterations of what is now Manifestation of Speed. The goal with these abilities were to give the voyager a reason to use their powers actively and expand their combat variety, which Manifestation of Speed should now, ideally, do.

    One final thing: with the changes to Branching Paths and the new abilities added to the base class, the Doomsayer and Timekeeper archetype have become incompatible and slightly problematic with the current design of the class. We’re temporarily removing them from the public playtest so they can be revised and revisited at a later date.

    Spoiler: Just the changelog
    Show
    The following abilities have been removed:
    • Parallel training
    • Branching paths
    • Kinetic wave
    • Power cycle

    The following abilities have been added:

    • Manifestation of speed (blink, dash, power channel, multitask and greater multitask.
    • The voyager power list has been greatly expanded.
    • New parallel actions at 7th, 11th, and 15th level have been added, called dual threat (7th), keep watch (11th), and emergency stasis (15th).

    The following abilities have been changed:

    • Momentum has been changed slightly; you can now split up how much momentum you spend on any given attack, keeping some in reserve.
    • The fast-forward parallel action has been nerfed; it no longer includes the teleport-attack option. Instead, that can be found in manifestation of speed. It also no longer has the “discharge speed bonus to teleport,” which turned out to do way too much for its cost.
    • The parallel manifesting parallel action now has a ML-boosting effect, in addition to the current abilities.
    • Look both ways (moved up one level to 6th, and granted expanded utility).
    • Fate in flux now allows the voyager to change which parallel actions she knows.
    • The elf and dwarf racial favored class options have been revised to be less focused on damage. The orc one has been removed for the time being.

    Finally, the doomsayer and timekeeper archetypes have been removed from the public document so they can be reworked to account for the new voyager abilities.
    Last edited by Deimosaur; 2017-10-30 at 06:37 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #123
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    Default Re: [Dreamscarred Press] New Playtest: the Voyager, a psionic skirmisher!

    I dare say that the voyager, for all of the "magus except more versatile" upgrades to its flexibility it has received, has been significantly downgraded. Branching paths were quite strong for how spammy they were, and the dwarf/elf/orc FCBs were quite strong.

    The voyager's playstyle is quite interesting now, but I am a little disappointed by how much of a direct hit to its power the class has taken. Spending momentum just to channel a voyager power into an attack, magus-style, simply is not as potent as dumping all of that momentum into a speeding strike bolstered by the dwarf/elf/orc FCB.

    I worry that a voyager will have a hard time keeping up with other tier 3s who offer both strong killing power and noncombat utility, like a classic archer inquisitor with the conversion inquisition.

    It would have been nice to preserve the original power level of speeding strike with the dwarf/elf/orc FCB (possibly by integrating such things into the class itself) while introducing new flexibility.

    Power Channel: By spending 3 points of momentum, the voyager can manifest a voyager power (spending power points normally) with a manifesting time of 1 standard action or less. The power manifested must be a non-personal power that normally has a single target, including touch powers and rays. If her weapon attack hits, it applies the power’s normal effect (if the power normally involves an attack roll and has effects on a miss, it will likewise apply them on a miss). If the weapon attack made as part of an augmented attack targets multiple creatures, the voyager chooses one target to affect with the power out of those that the attack hit. A critical hit with her weapon attack does not cause the power to also critical hit.
    This, right here, is my main grievance with the new voyager. What powers are you actually going to use through this?

    Suppose you are a 6th-level voyager with Amplified Momentum, which is all but a mandatory feat for voyagers by 5th level. Previously, you would have been able to hit enemies hard with speeding strike and the dwarf/elf/orc FCB, but now, you can do... what, exactly?

    You spend 3 momentum to activate power channel, effectively losing out on 3d6+3 (average 13.5) damage from momentum and amplified momentum. In exchange, you can spend power points to manifest... what, exactly? What could you possibly manifest using this ability that could make up for losing 13.5 average damage, no questions asked, no power points needed?

    I suppose a voyager could spend 6 power points on a dissipating touch for 6d6 damage, but that is an average of 21 damage, so the voyager has effectively spent 6 power points for +7.5 damage, which is terrible. Deep crystal weapons are more cost-effective than that.

    Dissipating touch is more appealing as the levels rise, but there needs to be something more immediately appealing for 5th- or 6th-level voyager than that, lest the new voyager turn into "speedy magus: less shocks and more dissipation: now with less cost-effectiveness."

    ...

    Then again, it seems that the voyager now treats powers from Expanded Knowledge as voyager powers.

    Therefore that there is a way to redeem power channel as a 5th- or 6th-level voyager, but it requires something very specific: the Split Psionic Ray metapsionic feat and Expanded Knowledge (energy ray).

    http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unl...ay-metapsionic

    http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unl...s/e/energy-ray

    The 6th-level voyager attacks, expends 3 momentum, incinerates their psionic focus, spends 6 power points, and tries to obliterate an enemy with their attack's damage and with two instances of 4d6+4 (average 18) cold damage.

    That is not bad at all, but... why should the voyager actually bother using power channel? They could just gain momentum from movement and then spend that momentum on a Split Psionic (Energy) Ray. That would be more accurate due to the touch attack, and it would save 3 momentum, which could then become 3d6+3 (average 13.5) damage.

    Of course, the problem here is that Split Psionic Ray requires another metapsionic feat... so it could be that the 6th-level voyager will have to settle for a regular energy ray for 6d6+6 (average 27) damage. What I am saying is that energy ray is currently a nigh-mandatory pick for a voyager's first Expanded Knowledge. Perhaps the voyager should have special powers tailored for it and restricted to it, just like the highlord?
    Last edited by EarthSeraphEdna; 2017-10-30 at 08:20 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #124
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: [Dreamscarred Press] New Playtest: the Voyager, a psionic skirmisher!

    I am still not entirely convinced that these are fair prices given how important momentum is to a voyager and how much raw damage and defense it can confer, but it is nice to see that Deimosaur has toned down some momentum prices for the voyager's manifestation of speed.

    Also, the prestige class section still mentions "branching paths."
    Last edited by EarthSeraphEdna; 2017-10-31 at 03:16 AM.

  5. - Top - End - #125
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    Default Re: [Dreamscarred Press] New Playtest: the Voyager, a psionic skirmisher!

    I'm worried about the voyager's endurance. This round of changes pushes them to manifest a lot more, but they still have very few PP and no way of mitigating costs in the way many other 6th-level manifesters who are expected to manifest often do.

  6. - Top - End - #126
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    Default Re: [Dreamscarred Press] New Playtest: the Voyager, a psionic skirmisher!

    Quote Originally Posted by TiaC View Post
    I'm worried about the voyager's endurance. This round of changes pushes them to manifest a lot more, but they still have very few PP and no way of mitigating costs in the way many other 6th-level manifesters who are expected to manifest often do.
    I would like to echo this concern. The new voyager is supposed to be "the magus: speedy edition: hopefully more versatile too," but it lacks the magus's spell recall and its fake-spellstrike comes with a price and a lack of critical multiplication. Does this not make its fake-spellstrike both weaker and more likely to tap the voyager out of power points?

    To illustrate this point, consider a generic 5th-level magus. A 1st-level spell pumps out 5d6 electricity damage with shocking grasp, and that also comes with an attack roll bonus against many enemies, as well as the potential to land a critical hit with the electricity damage.

    A 5th-level voyager pays 5 power points (the equivalent of a 3rd-level spell) for a cold or fire energy ray for 5d6+5 damage. That deals 5 more damage... but the voyager has had to pay 2 momentum (worth 2d6+2 damage given Amplified Momentum) for it. The voyager receives no attack roll bonus for it, and the voyager cannot multiply it with a critical hit.

    And the voyager still lacks spell recall.

    As a voyager, why bother with power channel in the first place? Why not simply manifest, say, an energy ray (preferably with Split Psionic Ray) the regular way and spend the momentum on that? Surely, that would save the voyager 2 momentum which can become 2d6+2 damage with Amplified Momentum, and it would let the voyager target touch AC.

    Split Psionic Ray is a major upgrade to a voyager's burst damage output... once they can afford the feats for it. Before then, energy ray is not especially cost-effective compared to a shocking grasp.
    Last edited by EarthSeraphEdna; 2017-11-01 at 02:41 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #127
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    Default Re: [Dreamscarred Press] New Playtest: the Voyager, a psionic skirmisher!

    meh I guess at this point I really should just start using hidden blade as a martial template for classes such as cryptic and ninja.

    If anything I'd rather see existing powers revamped so that they scaled more with level and were replaced with other effects. There are still way too many dupes left over from 3.5. I mean do we really need both Biofeedback AND Inertial Barrier. I already made it so biofeedback actually worked in a manner that was in line with it's name in that you controlled your heart rate and pain receptors so you gained a +4 bonus against fear/demoralization effects as well as pain/emotion based powers/spells. Spend 2 pp to increase the bonus by +2 and and additional 2 pp for actual immunity. Then of course Inertial barrier got put in the spot that Biofeedback was in but just reduced it's power but gave it options to increase duration and added the other rider effect after you increased your dr to 5/-.

    Bleh, didn't mean to derail the thread. Carry on.

  8. - Top - End - #128
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    Default Re: [Dreamscarred Press] New Playtest: the Voyager, a psionic skirmisher!

    Quote Originally Posted by TiaC View Post
    I'm worried about the voyager's endurance. This round of changes pushes them to manifest a lot more, but they still have very few PP and no way of mitigating costs in the way many other 6th-level manifesters who are expected to manifest often do.
    Very noted here. I'll look into this (and other concerns that have been raised here).

    It's worth saying that, while writing this, I had the thought that voyagers need not use the power-point spending parts of manifestation of speed (or, possibly, any parts of manifestation of speed at all) every round. If giving up 2d6 damage in order to manifest a damage-dealing power isn't appealing, you could not spend the points and use the enhanced attack as-is. Or look into the other powers that are usable. Raw damage is not the only possibility here!

    Hopefully.

  9. - Top - End - #129
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    Default Re: [Dreamscarred Press] New Playtest: the Voyager, a psionic skirmisher!

    Why did the voyager have to lose its bonus feats? Those were flavorful combat ribbons.

    Spoiler
    Show
    Rewind (3rd level):
    The voyager can use her parallel turn to pull herself back to an afterimage of herself, teleporting herself from her current location to her afterimage. As an immediate action, the voyager can expend her psionic focus in order to immediately return to her afterimage. Doing so in response to an attack or ability grants her a bonus equal to 1 + 1/3 of her class level to her AC and on saving throws against the attack or ability. A successful hit or a failed save means that she teleported too late and was affected normally. Using this parallel action preserves the voyager’s momentum; at the beginning of the voyager’s next turn, she does not lose any gathered points of momentum."

    Wait a minute; how is this an immediate action if this is a parallel action? Does a voyager have to dedicate both their parallel action and an immediate action to this? Can you use it as a parallel action or an immediate action?

  10. - Top - End - #130
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    Default Re: [Dreamscarred Press] New Playtest: the Voyager, a psionic skirmisher!

    You can use it on your parallel to just teleport back. You can use your immediate to teleport back in response to an attack. Could probably use a bit of clarifying.

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    Default Re: [Dreamscarred Press] New Playtest: the Voyager, a psionic skirmisher!

    Update: Restructuring
    Several updates have been made to further enable different playstyles (including manifesting).
    • Power channel now allows personal powers to be manifested on self at 5th level.

    • Voyager Knowledge now contains the option of trading a power known for feats from a specific list.

    • A new class feature at 4th level, Stored Power, allows a voyager to save a portion of their power points from the previous day for use later grants a small extra pool of power points.

    • Defensive Precognition added at 8th level as a situational defensive option.


    Look Both Ways has been split apart, distributed accordingly throughout the class.
    • Uncanny Dodge has been separated, and Improved Uncanny Dodge is gained later.

    • Time Saver added, with Look Both Ways' other functions.


    Parallel actions have been reorganized and categorized in a way that will hopefully be more understandable. More parallel actions made available to an individual voyager.

    Spoiler: Parallel Action Categories
    Show
    Combat Assistance (1st level): The voyager learns two parallel actions that support the voyager in a fight or in a relatively mundane way.
    Time Manipulation (3rd level): The voyager learns two parallel actions that bend time to suit the voyager’s needs.
    Manifesting Support (7th level): The voyager learns two parallel actions that assist the voyager when manifesting powers.
    Advanced Assistance (11th level): The voyager learns one parallel action that influences the battlefield in unusual ways.
    Backup Plans (15th level): The voyager learns one parallel action that serves to get the voyager out of tight situations.
    Parallel Intrusion (19th level): The voyager learns a parallel action that allows the voyager to temporarily stop time and act as she wishes.

    • Parallel actions that used to be at 7th level have been moved to the options at 1st level, and 7th level has become "manifesting support".

    • Parallel actions at 3rd level have been rebalanced. Rewind has had power shifted, voyager gains the ability to ignore the miss chance from pause.
    Last edited by Deimosaur; 2017-11-04 at 11:44 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #132
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    Default Re: [Dreamscarred Press] New Playtest: the Voyager, a psionic skirmisher!

    I liked the voyager just before the "fake magus" set of updates arrived. It was a high tier 3 class, powerful yet ultimately not game-breaking, and certainly nothing like optimized Path of War as far as combat potency was concerned.

    The pre-"fake magus" voyager had its flaws. The dwarf/elf/orc FCBs were too strong, and its playstyle monotonously revolved around spamming fast-forward and speeding strike. Still, it actually felt like a teleport-skirmishing master of space and time. The way a voyager zoomed in, teleported past an enemy to savage it for huge damage, and then teleported away was highly distinct. Quite satisfying, it was, and unique. If only there were more options on the level of fast-forward and speeding strike so as to encourage a voyager to mix up their playstyle from round to round, and if only there was little need for a voyager to run back and forth between two squares, the class would have been perfect for me.

    ~

    Then, two rounds of "fake magus"-ification ensued. The voyager loses a good chunk of its power given the removal of speeding strike and the downgrade to fast-forward. This only serves to make running back and forth between two squares even more necessary, and it means that a voyager's playstyle can be more easily disrupted by enemies closing in with their threatened areas. But hey, at least a voyager gets to preserve full momentum using assisted escape, so a voyager is behooved to prepare for battle by... running back and forth between two squares just before the fight breaks out?

    In theory, the voyager compensates for this using manifestation of speed's augmented attacks... but those cost either momentum or power points. Momentum costs are a bitter pill to swallow; with the nigh-mandatory Amplified Momentum feat, each point of momentum is worth 4.5 average damage, or +3 AC and Reflex for a round, so the voyager has to wonder if an augmented attack is really worth the momentum cost.

    As for power points, throughout the lower levels (1 to 7 or so), a voyager simply does not have the power points to finance round-to-round power point expenditures. Paizo's half-caster gishes do not worry about this because they tend to save their spell slots for pre-battle buffing and noncombat utility, maybe with a single pop of a mid-combat swift/immediate spell to support a gishy playstyle, like an inquisitor litany. The magus is an exception, but the magus makes up for this with the fact that its damage-dealing spells automatically scale in damage without costing power points, and with the ever-important spell recall for more fuel for round to round.

    The voyager does not have the luxury of spell recall, despite being pushed into a "fake magus" playstyle with power channel. All it has is stored power, which allows the voyager to carry over power points equal to 1/3rd of their maximum... from the previous day. If the voyager goes adventuring only every other day, that is great! They win fabulous prizes. If not, because they are on an active adventure in a single location and they have to get back to adventuring work the following day... then the voyager gains absolutely nothing, probably because they tapped out their power points the previous day. This is awful design far too dependent on the mercy of a GM's adventure structure over the course of several days. The magus's spell recall does not have to deal with this.

    I know this from experience: I GM for a 6th-level voyager with Intelligence 20. Between pre-combat buffs and a single use of object reading outside of combat, they were completely tapped out of power points just as they entered the third battle of the day... with one more battle remaining down the line. They never bothered with power channel at all, or neat swift action powers like repositioning strike; they could not afford it.

    Power channel is a bad idea to begin with. I do not see a reason to bother with it. A voyager should save their momentum for actually killing people and defending themselves, and conserve their power points for pre-battle buffs, noncombat utility, and maybe a single swift/immediate action power mid-combat, just like every other half-caster. A voyager gains nothing from being a fake magus and channeling a cost-ineffective Expanded Knowledge (energy ray), which, by the way, is thematically silly given that the spacetime-manipulator is suddenly slashing with fire and frost.

    And as additional salt on the wound, the voyager's noncombat utility was also compromised by the bizarre and unnecessary delay of information exchange to 6th level. There was no need for that to have happened.

    I do not like the new voyager. I wish that this "fake magus"-ification would go away, and that the voyager would focus more on unique class features to support a "teleport-skirmishing master of space and time" playstyle. If only there were more combinations like fast-forward and speeding strike so as to give more great options from round to round, and if only running back and forth between two squares was less necessary, then that would be lovely.

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    Default Re: [Dreamscarred Press] New Playtest: the Voyager, a psionic skirmisher!

    Stored Power (Su): At 4th level, a voyager’s mind gathers and stores excess psionic power from her parallel timelines. She gains a second pool of power points that she can draw upon when she would normally spend power points. This second pool can contain a maximum amount of power points in this way equal to 1/3 of her normal maximum power points from voyager levels (including bonus power points from her Intelligence). Power points from the voyager’s stored power pool are treated as part of her normal pool for the purposes of manifesting powers; she may pay power costs partially with stored power and partially with normal power points, if she wishes.

    When the voyager spends power points from this second pool, she gains points of momentum equal to half the power points spent. Whenever the voyager regains power points after a night’s rest, this secondary pool of power refills as well.
    Also, for goodness's sake, those voyager bonus feats should be free. They are minor combat ribbons anyway; I do not see the need for them to come at the price of powers known.

  14. - Top - End - #134
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    Default Re: [Dreamscarred Press] New Playtest: the Voyager, a psionic skirmisher!

    Followup Update:
    Manifestation of Speed has not been doing what I've wanted it to do. It was meant as a replacement for speeding strike, allowing that functionality to be baseline in a limited way (rather than every voyager feeling obligated to take that option), and freeing up the voyager's parallel actions.

    Likewise, the "Fake-Magus" approach to augmenting a voyager's offense, coined above, was not particularly intended. The voyager could use Manifestation of Speed to do more with less time in combat (buffing or utility), but that potential was overshadowed due to opportunity costs. Voyagers should not feel obligated to spend the maximum amount of power points each turn, nor should they ignore their powers entirely.

    Spoiler: Manifestation of Speed changes
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    Total power points and momentum points spent at once on an augmented attack are capped to manifester level (including for momentum damage).

    Blink and Dash are inherent benefits of Manifestation of Speed when power points or points of momentum are spent on an augmented attack, allowing hit-and-run to be done with augmented attacks without additional costs.

    Power Channel is available at 2nd level. No more momentum required to use it, multitask, or greater multitask.

    Lightning Focus moved to 5th level, Multitask moved to 9th level. Shove added at 13th level, a new method of spending momentum.

    With augmented attacks, our intention is that it be a decision to spend power points. If you want direct damage and you have the momentum to spare, then momentum will generally be the better option. This new method of limiting Manifestation of Speed means there is no direct trade of momentum in order to spend your power points. You will not be 'wasting' momentum when using power points, as momentum still has defensive benefits and retaining momentum in any given turn is not the end of the world.

    A sidebar has been added, detailing how exactly this new dynamic can work out in combat.

    The crossfire's Bullet Time ability is updating as well to keep pace with these changes.

    Added earlier, but still relevant: Earlier tiers of parallel actions (Combat Assistance, Time Manipulation, Manifesting Support) now allow the voyager to learn 2 of each at the respective tiers instead of 1.
    Last edited by Deimosaur; 2017-11-06 at 06:44 PM.

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    Default Re: [Dreamscarred Press] New Playtest: the Voyager, a psionic skirmisher!

    Today's voyager update is most certainly a step in the right direction, although I still have a few concerns with it:

    1. Power channel would still seem to force concentration checks, so voyagers are behooved to be ranged over melee.

    2. There is absolutely, positively a "best power" to use for power channel from round to round, and that is destiny dissonance. For 1 power point, a voyager gets to sicken the target for 1 round per manifester level, no saving throw. This is just enough for 5 feet of teleportation from blink, which can then be followed up with momentum-based movement from dash, thereby earning a voyager momentum with which to use for defense.

    3. The "fake magus" playstyle still exists to a strong degree. A voyager can still opt for Expanded Knowledge (energy ray), and then build up towards Split Psionic Ray. Then, they can unleash all of their momentum on an attack, dealing 1d6+1 extra damage per point of momentum, plus their weapon damage, plus all the extravagance of a Split Psionic Ray energy ray. It will be a costly nova, yes, but I think it is unhealthy for there to be an "explode powerful enemy" button in the first place, however heavy it may be on daily resources.

    4. Voyagers still run back and forth between two squares to build up momentum.

    5. It is really quite annoying that the bonus combat feats, which are from a list of combat ribbons, require trading in Expanded Knowledge. They should be free given how narrow those feats are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EarthSeraphEdna View Post
    Today's voyager update is most certainly a step in the right direction, although I still have a few concerns with it:

    1. Power channel would still seem to force concentration checks, so voyagers are behooved to be ranged over melee.

    2. There is absolutely, positively a "best power" to use for power channel from round to round, and that is destiny dissonance. For 1 power point, a voyager gets to sicken the target for 1 round per manifester level, no saving throw. This is just enough for 5 feet of teleportation from blink, which can then be followed up with momentum-based movement from dash, thereby earning a voyager momentum with which to use for defense.

    3. The "fake magus" playstyle still exists to a strong degree. A voyager can still opt for Expanded Knowledge (energy ray), and then build up towards Split Psionic Ray. Then, they can unleash all of their momentum on an attack, dealing 1d6+1 extra damage per point of momentum, plus their weapon damage, plus all the extravagance of a Split Psionic Ray energy ray. It will be a costly nova, yes, but I think it is unhealthy for there to be an "explode powerful enemy" button in the first place, however heavy it may be on daily resources.

    4. Voyagers still run back and forth between two squares to build up momentum.

    5. It is really quite annoying that the bonus combat feats, which are from a list of combat ribbons, require trading in Expanded Knowledge. They should be free given how narrow those feats are.
    1. Powers manifested as part of an augmented attack do not provoke attacks of opportunity, so concentration checks are usually unnecessary.

    2. It's certainly a strong opener, but it obviously doesn't stack on the same target more than once. But, noted.

    3. Their potential damage is still limited. The total combined momentum and power points is capped by the voyager's manifester level.
    The line below was added to the ability at some point but it didn't get mentioned in the update.
    Spoiler: Forgot to include this in the changelog, but it's there
    Show
    Powers with a variable number of targets (such as energy missile) cannot be used with power channel.

    4. If your positioning is free to do so, I see no reason to forbid it. On the bright side, the basic bonuses of augmented attacks let you recoup some of your momentum expenditure, meaning it's less desirable to do so and you'll have to shuffle less times to max out on momentum.

    5. You don't need to trade Expanded Knowledge (though you can), any voyager power known will do. Given that powers are limited use and the feats, while niche, work all the time, we feel that voyagers, getting more powers known than any other 6-manifester, might still find this trade-off worth it on some (but perhaps not all) builds.
    Last edited by Deimosaur; 2017-11-06 at 10:34 PM.

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    Default Re: [Dreamscarred Press] New Playtest: the Voyager, a psionic skirmisher!

    Okay. That was a fast series of implemented changes. Thank you. I am still of the opinion that combat ribbon feats should not cost anything, but I can see your stance as well. The one thing that irks me most is the running back and forth between two squares, even if there are ways to mitigate it, but I think it cannot be helped at this point.

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    I have been thinking over the current state of the voyager, and I have to say that I am reasonably satisfied with it in its current state. Zig-zagging back and forth between two squares is perhaps a necessary evil, but I would suggest a tiny sidebar explaining how to flavor it in a less ridiculous way. I would prefer for the combat ribbon feats to be free, but if Dreamscarred Press is dead-set on attaching a price tag to them, then so be it.

    At the moment, my two main concerns are as such:

    1. Destiny dissonance is still far too good an opening, since it costs only 1 power point, sickens a target for essentially an entire battle with no saving throw, and gives just enough blink teleportation (5 feet) with which a voyager can then safely escape from an enemy using dash and build up momentum. Plus, you can combine it with an inevitable strike.

    2. Augmented attack could perhaps use some wording to open it up to trips, dirty tricks, Vital Strikes, and the like, so as to give a voyager more options than just vanilla weapon attacks.
    Last edited by EarthSeraphEdna; 2017-11-08 at 03:17 AM.

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    Default Re: [Dreamscarred Press] New Playtest: the Voyager, a psionic skirmisher!

    Quote Originally Posted by EarthSeraphEdna View Post

    2. Augmented attack could perhaps use some wording to open it up to trips, dirty tricks, Vital Strikes, and the like, so as to give a voyager more options than just vanilla weapon attacks.
    With spheres of might just being released, I'd think innate support for attack actions would be more than cool

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    Default Re: [Dreamscarred Press] New Playtest: the Voyager, a psionic skirmisher!

    So what is the incentive to play this class over a Cryptic or Traceur Psywar?

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    Quote Originally Posted by angelpalm View Post
    So what is the incentive to play this class over a Cryptic or Traceur Psywar?
    They play very differently, I'm sure. Mobility is the name of the game for the voyager, and in my opinion she does it better than either of those two.

    The psychic warrior wants to leverage their path bonuses and bonus feats to hit stuff hard. Full attacks, using powers to either enable them or put riders on the attacks. The cryptic isn't comparable to either as far as combat potential goes.

    Most traceurs (and most psychic warriors) will outpunch a voyager in a stand-up brawl, most likely. But that's not the voyager's game at all. The voyager is intended to enable a hit and run playstyle, through the manifestation of speed class ability. She can leverage her speed (which she has more of than even a traceur) into offense and defense (both positioning-wise and numbers-wise).

    Look at the example listed in the sidebar after manifestation of speed and their power list, and you might get an idea of how much potential flexibility a voyager has if she puts her mind to it. Parallel actions are vaguely comparable to psychic warrior paths (being a set of somewhat character-defining choices), but also serve to provide the voyager with off-turn utility and unique fluff.
    Last edited by Deimosaur; 2017-11-09 at 11:40 AM.

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    Default Re: [Dreamscarred Press] New Playtest: the Voyager, a psionic skirmisher!

    Building one up for fun at low level, possibly for use in a campaign. (Starting at level one. Eeeeww!)

    Only thing I've noticed thus far is that in the Class Skills, Stealth and Spellcraft are in the wrong alphabetical order.

    Minor thing, sure, but it's what I've noticed. Far better eyes than mine are scrutinizing mechanics.

    Edit: Some of the power entry links are not working. For example, 'Inertial Armor' has its' link misspelled. In the link, it is written 'intertial'.

    Further Edit: Do you add your Int bonus to your PP per day? I can't find the mentioned reference for how many PP the Int mod gives.
    Last edited by Talverin; 2017-11-08 at 07:46 PM.

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    Default Re: [Dreamscarred Press] New Playtest: the Voyager, a psionic skirmisher!

    Psionics has this wonderful chart to figure out bonus PP, because this is 3.5/PF, and something as easy as adding your manifesting ability modifier to your PP would be far too simple.

    (In actuality it's to balance against casters, for whom an increased casting ability gives more bonus spells if they're of a higher level.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tariyan Draegr View Post
    With spheres of might just being released, I'd think innate support for attack actions would be more than cool
    That's outside of our wheelhouse, my friend. Nothin' against Spheres of Might or Drop Dead Studios, but the thing about trying to support out-of-house 3pp in one's own 3pp work is that you can't really certify that everything is going to be okay about it. They have their own design paradigms, goals, and decisions, which they rightly do not consult with us about, and vice-versa. Attempting to support their content in our own is making the implicit statement that the two go together and are okay to run together, and we can't promise that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth View Post
    That's outside of our wheelhouse, my friend. Nothin' against Spheres of Might or Drop Dead Studios, but the thing about trying to support out-of-house 3pp in one's own 3pp work is that you can't really certify that everything is going to be okay about it. They have their own design paradigms, goals, and decisions, which they rightly do not consult with us about, and vice-versa. Attempting to support their content in our own is making the implicit statement that the two go together and are okay to run together, and we can't promise that.
    Hey man, more than understandable. I've always been more than satisfied with all you guys put out. I more than appreciate the response though.

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    Default Re: [Dreamscarred Press] New Playtest: the Voyager, a psionic skirmisher!

    Over the past week I've been updating and adjusting wording. Nothing to worry about, just . . . minor wording stuff.

    Just now though, I've added three new feats to the playtest document.

    Divert Perception and Fade From Memory are feats that accommodate a stealth and movement-based playstyle. While not directly voyager feats, there's obvious synergy between them and how a voyager likes to play.

    Maneuver Augmentation is a feat that builds on Momentous Maneuvers and allows the voyager to make combat maneuver attempts with her augmented attack.

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    I strongly worry that Divert Perception plus Lurker in Darkness and Stealth optimization means nigh-undetectable infiltrations by 6th-level and for a relatively low opportunity cost.

    Fade from Memory should probably trigger the Will saving throw only once per round, or else things get stupid with prompting multiple Stealth checks in a single round.
    Last edited by EarthSeraphEdna; 2017-11-15 at 10:11 AM.

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    Default Re: [Dreamscarred Press] New Playtest: the Voyager, a psionic skirmisher!

    A few comments on the pre-update voyager from one of my players:
    Spoiler
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    Thoughts on Voyager

    I, unfortunately, had the least experience with Voyager, so this will be a short section. The voyager in the party seems to not use utility psionic powers, which feels a bit strange for a class with 6+ skill points and obviously meant to be high utility out-of-combat. I wonder if this is a corollary of having too little power points over the day, which forces extreme rationing for in-combat purposes.


    Naturally, this is simply a vindication of the post-update voyager's upgraded power points.

    Also, I am completely convinced that the voyager (crossfire) is awful short of advanced firearms. It is accurate, yes, but firearms are terrible weapons saddled with misfires, pesky reload times, and a lack of ability score to damage. A voyager (crossfire) who intends on using move actions to actually move will need to use a pistol with paper cartridges for a paltry 1d8 base damage with no ability modifier, and must furthermore contend with misfire 1-2. Having to spend parallel actions just to clear misfiring is quite inconvenient.

    The mystic (gunsmoke mystic) and the warlord (desperado) both offer far more perks for actually wielding firearms than the voyager (crossfire).

    On another topic, perhaps the voyager should have touchsight as a 3rd-level power? For all the voyager is supposed to be a sneaky sort, it has distressingly few options for actually dealing with other sneaky-types, especially invisible enemies. It could stand to replace evade burst, which is useless for voyagers anyway due to evasion.
    Last edited by EarthSeraphEdna; 2017-11-16 at 01:07 AM.

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    Default Re: [Dreamscarred Press] New Playtest: the Voyager, a psionic skirmisher!

    Quote Originally Posted by EarthSeraphEdna View Post
    I strongly worry that Divert Perception plus Lurker in Darkness and Stealth optimization means nigh-undetectable infiltrations by 6th-level and for a relatively low opportunity cost.

    Fade from Memory should probably trigger the Will saving throw only once per round, or else things get stupid with prompting multiple Stealth checks in a single round.
    Fade from Memory requires the use of psionic focus to trigger. You'll naturally be limited by psionic focus when trying to use it multiple times in a round.

    Quote Originally Posted by EarthSeraphEdna View Post
    Also, I am completely convinced that the voyager (crossfire) is awful short of advanced firearms. It is accurate, yes, but firearms are terrible weapons saddled with misfires, pesky reload times, and a lack of ability score to damage. A voyager (crossfire) who intends on using move actions to actually move will need to use a pistol with paper cartridges for a paltry 1d8 base damage with no ability modifier, and must furthermore contend with misfire 1-2. Having to spend parallel actions just to clear misfiring is quite inconvenient.

    The mystic (gunsmoke mystic) and the warlord (desperado) both offer far more perks for actually wielding firearms than the voyager (crossfire).
    Misfires are unfortunate when they happen, but the crossfire has a rather action-efficient way to clear it (and in line with other archetypes/classes that have to put up with it).

    Though guns do have issues, fixing them entirely isn't within the scope of this project. The crossfire was given abilities that we think put them alongside similar gun-users. If this is your opinion, hopefully the crossfire will be compatible with whatever other gun fixes you have in mind (such as advanced firearms, as you said).

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    Default Re: [Dreamscarred Press] New Playtest: the Voyager, a psionic skirmisher!

    Quote Originally Posted by Deimosaur View Post
    Fade from Memory requires the use of psionic focus to trigger. You'll naturally be limited by psionic focus when trying to use it multiple times in a round.
    That is fair. I was basing this criticism from a contact who brought up exactly this concern; I should have checked the actual feat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deimosaur View Post
    Misfires are unfortunate when they happen, but the crossfire has a rather action-efficient way to clear it (and in line with other archetypes/classes that have to put up with it).

    Though guns do have issues, fixing them entirely isn't within the scope of this project. The crossfire was given abilities that we think put them alongside similar gun-users. If this is your opinion, hopefully the crossfire will be compatible with whatever other gun fixes you have in mind (such as advanced firearms, as you said).
    The mystic (gunsmoke mystic) and the warlord (desperado) do, in a way, fix emerging firearms by giving plenty of incentives to use them. The gunsmoke mystic has misfire reduction and its initiation modifier to firearm damage, and the desperado has many bonus feats and actual grit. The crossfire receives very little in exchange.

    I would hardly call spending your parallel action just to clear a misfire "action-efficient."

    At the moment, I have to say that a hummingbird tengu melee voyager is probably the single best voyager build from 3rd- to 10th-level or so. Such a character has speed 40 feet, automatic proficiency with elven curve blades, +2 Dexterity, and +2 Intelligence, which is absolutely perfect for a melee voyager.
    Last edited by EarthSeraphEdna; 2017-11-16 at 01:52 AM.

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