Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You

[Satinavian]

As was mentioned, Scandinavians showed up in the Byzantine Empire. Think they brought any locals back home with them from time to time? (Voluntarily or not.)

Europe was hardly a gated community.

If you're going for 'Historical Accuracy', that's excusable. But insisting that Generic Fantasyland has to be whites-only will get anyone who does it a well-deserved side-eye.

Most inhabitants of Byzantium were white. Which is also true for nearly every country that had significant trade contacts with or was regularly raided by Vikings.

Even your link is full of Arabs (white) and Iranians (also white) and examples of Roman legionairies in Britain (wrong time and wrong area) because even with very hard looking it was basically impossible to find enough examples for a "Black Viking" article that doesn't present those as really really exotic.

Even nowadays after globalisation, when travel around the world is easy as never, after millions of people moved from the former colonies to Europe, where language barriors are comparably easy to overcome, global corporations and organisations are common, even nowadays most European nations have a black population of around 1 percent or even lower. And those few are nearly always living in the cities. In the countryside you might find 1 black person in a thousand or in ten thousand. It is not unheard of for an adult European seeing a real life black person for the first time, especcially in eastern Europe.

You might want to add a factor of another 10 for the significantly less well connected middle ages and have one black person per 10000-100000 as a good guess for Scandinavian villages.

[InvisibleBison]

This is more of something that has appeared in more modern fantasy works (And although I love the game, Skyrim is guilty of it). But dragons that are more of mini-bosses to the hero(es) than actual threats. In older fantasy works and in older RPGs (like D&D) dragons were scary and could destroy anyone easily if you took them head on, and I think it should stay that way.

In fact, I think Skyrim is the biggest offender (There's no reason to attack Elder Scrolls as a whole, the only seen dragon in other games was

Spoiler: Oblivion Spoiler

Show

Martin Septim when he turned into a dragon as Akatosh to fight Mehrunes Dagon

). The dragons land on the ground to be beaten to death while they could easily breathe fire on ice on the pesky mortals until they fall down.

To be fair to Skyrim, the player character is also a dragon (at least, in a spiritual sense), so it's reasonable that they're able to face dragons on a more or less even footing.

[Bohandas]

Ever since I saw it as a little kid, I've appreciated Flight of Dragons's explanation for dragon flight and dragon fire. (They're hydrogen balloons and they have a spark plug organ in their mouths that ignites the hydrogen when they exhale.) It doesn't work for every dragon, but it's a fun explanation nonetheless.

I believe this was also how dragons worked in Discworld. They had a distressing tendency to blow themselves up (except for the high magic true dragon type dragons who had seperate issues with existing on the material plane)

I'll admit to preferring "This culture is loosely inspired by [real world culture X]" to "Not!X." To me the distinction lies in how close and intentional the parallels are. If you have a Not!Norse culture that worships a one-eyed God with ravens (among others), lives in the far north, goes raiding on longboats, are dominantly blond, big, and pale-skinned, it's likely too much for me. On the other hand, if you have a culture that lives in the far north that are raiders (but whose pantheon is completely different and ride to raids on ponies) and have some of the traits, that's probably fine.

That reminds me of another trope that annoys me. Why are the frozen lands always to the north? Why is every setting on the northern hemisphere and with an earth-like polar climate? It's never "the frozen lands to the south" or "the frozen lands where the gods dropped the artifact of unending cold"

[Lemmy]

That reminds me of another trope that annoys me. Why are the frozen lands always to the north? Why is every setting on the northern hemisphere and with an earth-like polar climate? It's never "the frozen lands to the south" or "the frozen lands where the gods dropped the artifact of unending cold"

Probably because most famous authors live in the northern hemisphere... But I've seen quite a few examples of lands covered in permanent ice and snow because of some artifact, curse or creature/deity located there.

[Honest Tiefling]

That reminds me of another trope that annoys me. Why are the frozen lands always to the north? Why is every setting on the northern hemisphere and with an earth-like polar climate? It's never "the frozen lands to the south" or "the frozen lands where the gods dropped the artifact of unending cold"

I thought this was the case for Dragonlance, where Ansalon was in the Southren Hemisphere and the main heroes do actually go to the frozen South. Another argument is Exalted, where logic and science are the playthings of the gods and magic.

[Cosi]

That reminds me of another trope that annoys me. Why are the frozen lands always to the north? Why is every setting on the northern hemisphere and with an earth-like polar climate? It's never "the frozen lands to the south" or "the frozen lands where the gods dropped the artifact of unending cold"

In addition to what Lemmy mentions, the farthest extremes of Africa, Asia, Australia, and South America are still pretty warm compared to e.g. Finland. You can just walk into the Arctic Circle in a whole bunch of different places, while you can't do the same for the Anarctic Circle. Also, there aren't particularly notable tribes of people from really cold places in the south, so it's often easier to stick your Vikings in the north so you can keep calling them Northmen.

[Malimar]

And related to that - everything being a monarchy. There have been so many other government systems besides that even in RL history, plus the new ones that could exist in a setting where beings like dragons exist, gods interact with mortal affairs, and magic is a thing. Have some variety!

"Everything is a monarchy" is pretty much fine with me. Historically, most big states up until relatively recently have been monarchies (including somewhat more elective monarchies than most people realize).

Every monarchy operates under agnatic (or, at best, agnatic-cognatic) primogeniture inheritance is quite a bit more tired and overdone.

(My home D&D setting includes: monarchy with cognatic primogeniture inheritance, rule by a council with seniority inheritance (empty seats are filled by the oldest citizen), theocracy with inheritance by just like whatever, elective monarchy, monarchy with complicated tanistry inheritance, rule by an elected triumvirate, monarchy with enatic ultimogeniture inheritance, rule by a bicameral senate of hereditary aristocrats and elected commoners led by a praetor who appoints their own heir (of any gender), elective theocracy?, merchant republic with a doge (of any gender) elected from any of the great houses, monarchy with cognatic gavelkind inheritance, and one lonely monarchy with agnatic primogeniture inheritance.)

[Lord Raziere]

Every monarchy operates under agnatic (or, at best, agnatic-cognatic) primogeniture inheritance is quite a bit more tired and overdone.

(My home D&D setting includes: monarchy with cognatic primogeniture inheritance, rule by a council with seniority inheritance (empty seats are filled by the oldest citizen), theocracy with inheritance by just like whatever, elective monarchy, monarchy with complicated tanistry inheritance, rule by an elected triumvirate, monarchy with enatic ultimogeniture inheritance, rule by a bicameral senate of hereditary aristocrats and elected commoners led by a praetor who appoints their own heir (of any gender), elective theocracy?, merchant republic with a doge (of any gender) elected from any of the great houses, monarchy with cognatic gavelkind inheritance, and one lonely monarchy with agnatic primogeniture inheritance.)

...........I am sorry, I do not understand, you were saying words?

[Honest Tiefling]

...........I am sorry, I do not understand, you were saying words?

Agnatic: Throne goes to the same generation as the king before his sons.

Cognatic: Not sure, but I assume where the descendents are the first inheritors.

Primogeniture: Style of inheritance where the first son (usually) takes the crown and all lands. I believe other sons might have a claim to nobility, but don't get land, and therefore, not much power in most systems.

Tanistry: If I'm not mistaken, the heir is appointed from the ruling people, (usually men again) instead of being passed down a lineage.

I might have these terms wrong, but I would like to point out that I agree and disagree with the point of monarchy. I think in a world where you have wizards and fighters who can flex so hard as to break weapons and armor, it makes sense that someone might set up this system. Without modern forms of communication or infrastructure, other systems quickly break down. However, that doesn't mean you can't have far more interesting types of monarchy.

At least have the thing where the next king has to prove themselves worthy by defeating a worthy foe! You can get tons of plotlines from that!

[Lord Raziere]

Ok, that explains some, but what is "bicameral" "enatic" "ultimogeniture" "gavelkind" and "doge"?

[Max_Killjoy]

I'm having Crusader Kings II flashbacks.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primogeniture
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimogeniture
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elective_monarchy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanistry
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rota_system
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavelkind
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doge

[Honest Tiefling]

Ok, that explains some, but what is "bicameral" "enatic" "ultimogeniture" "gavelkind" and "doge"?

I think Max_Killjoy has most of it, but the last one? Doge is Italian for Duke, and is sometimes used to refer to the leader of Venice. You might have seen the Doge Meme of Civilization, including the mod Space Doge. More seriously, it probably means a leader who is elected for life, typically an elder of the Aristocracy.

Which oddly enough, is neither a Duke in the sense that the word comes from the Roman Republic or a Duke in many forms of nobility of Europe.

Bicameral is having two bodies or branches. Think of England and the House of Commons/House of Lords type of deal.

Monarchy! Now in multiple flavors!

[Satinavian]

the agnatic/cognatic thiing is more about if women can inherit and under which circumstances. The stuff with the generations is set in the term primopgeniture.

Agnatic primogeniture means always the oldest living son, then closest male relatives, the stuff with "same eneration as king but still only males" would be agnatic seniority.
Agnatic-cognatic primogeniture might allow a daughter to inherit, when no son is present. Cognatic primogeniture would be "first child regardless of gender"


Personally one thing that annoys me is how often people depict something looking like a medieval feudal kingdom but then forget to include any actual feudalism. Instead the king is portrayed as absolute ruler, the army is his army and the actual ruling is done via some well developed bureaucracy.

[Mr Beer]

Ok, that explains some, but what is "bicameral" "enatic" "ultimogeniture" "gavelkind" and "doge"?

Doge was the Venetian ruler IIRC. But I primarily remember the word because of the Doge meme.

[Mr Beer]

That reminds me of another trope that annoys me. Why are the frozen lands always to the north? Why is every setting on the northern hemisphere and with an earth-like polar climate? It's never "the frozen lands to the south" or "the frozen lands where the gods dropped the artifact of unending cold"

Hugh Cook's excellent Chronicles has a "Cold South" I think...there's a large area where a high tech device from a now collapsed prior civilisation has completely screwed the weather so it's unseasonably cold the whole time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chroni...ge_of_Darkness

[Bohandas]

As was mentioned, Scandinavians showed up in the Byzantine Empire. Think they brought any locals back home with them from time to time? (Voluntarily or not.)

Europe was hardly a gated community.

Most of the people in that link aren't black

[Xuc Xac]

Personally one thing that annoys me is how often people depict something looking like a medieval feudal kingdom but then forget to include any actual feudalism. Instead the king is portrayed as absolute ruler, the army is his army and the actual ruling is done via some well developed bureaucracy.

I hate that too. They call it feudalism, but it's actually just federalism with nobles.

[Guizonde]

Doge was the Venetian ruler IIRC. But I primarily remember the word because of the Doge meme.

i was studying the history of venice when the doge meme came out. believe me, even the teacher got in on the action. examples include "oh wow, such venice, much mercantilism", "oh wow, such one-eyed doge, much bloodbath", and "much prestige, so sublimissima, wow".

... the teacher eventually came to be known as "such venice" by the student body. he laughed about it being true, being one of the leading authorities in europe on the city.

re: feudalism. believe me, if people think about it as "federalism with nobles", it's because nobody outside of a master's degree in medieval european history has any understanding of exactly what went on from the xth to the xivth century in politics. i'd call it a can of worms, but it grossly understates the complexity and backstabbing that went on. a closer depiction of what went on would probably high school facebook drama, but with more bloodshed and inbreeding.

[Blackhawk748]

i was studying the history of venice when the doge meme came out. believe me, even the teacher got in on the action. examples include "oh wow, such venice, much mercantilism", "oh wow, such one-eyed doge, much bloodbath", and "much prestige, so sublimissima, wow".

... the teacher eventually came to be known as "such venice" by the student body. he laughed about it being true, being one of the leading authorities in europe on the city.

re: feudalism. believe me, if people think about it as "federalism with nobles", it's because nobody outside of a master's degree in medieval european history has any understanding of exactly what went on from the xth to the xivth century in politics. i'd call it a can of worms, but it grossly understates the complexity and backstabbing that went on. a closer depiction of what went on would probably high school facebook drama, but with more bloodshed and inbreeding.

So standard Facebook drama then.

But ya, most depictions I see are that or straight up Absolutism, rarely actual feudalism

[Honest Tiefling]

re: feudalism. believe me, if people think about it as "federalism with nobles", it's because nobody outside of a master's degree in medieval european history has any understanding of exactly what went on from the xth to the xivth century in politics. i'd call it a can of worms, but it grossly understates the complexity and backstabbing that went on. a closer depiction of what went on would probably high school facebook drama, but with more bloodshed and inbreeding.

Facebook with dragons. I think this is a goldmine for plot lines! Maybe you should write a guide or a list of interesting ways to really interweave that drama into a medieval European influenced game.

Personally, I love it when the players realize that the nobles are all acting like emotional idiots so they have to detangle motives that aren't necessarily logical from their standpoint as players of a game.

[Guizonde]

Facebook with dragons. I think this is a goldmine for plot lines! Maybe you should write a guide or a list of interesting ways to really interweave that drama into a medieval European influenced game.

Personally, I love it when the players realize that the nobles are all acting like emotional idiots so they have to detangle motives that aren't necessarily logical from their standpoint as players of a game.

oh crud, i opened up pandora's box, it seems. facebook with dragons! reddit beholders vs wikihow tinkergnomes! the 9gag fey tricksters vs the 4chan hardened trolls! the list could go on! i ain't about to write up a guide, seeing as how i'm only a historian that specialized in medieval warfare and not a scholar of medieval "geopolitics" (forgive the anachronism), but i'll start a thread on how the current interwebs can be molded into a probable and convincing realistic depiction of medieval intrigue.

you may love this kind of intrigue, but i've always found it taxing on my patience. there's a reason i'm plan c in my team. namely, "kill everything to death to scare the powerful into recognizing our authority". were i in an "only war" game, i've been recommended to play the commissar. some of my craziest dm's actually allowed me to follow through on my sociopathic quips. oftentimes, it shortened the plot considerably but made the difficulty rating a bit higher. oh well, can't make an omelette without breaking some faces, i always say. which if history is to be believed is pretty much how louis viii the lion managed to keep track of his nobles and competitors. and what do you know? we're smack dab in the middle of feudal france!

[Honest Tiefling]

oh crud, i opened up pandora's box, it seems. facebook with dragons! reddit beholders vs wikihow tinkergnomes! the 9gag fey tricksters vs the 4chan hardened trolls! the list could go on! i ain't about to write up a guide, seeing as how i'm only a historian that specialized in medieval warfare and not a scholar of medieval "geopolitics" (forgive the anachronism), but i'll start a thread on how the current interwebs can be molded into a probable and convincing realistic depiction of medieval intrigue.

Hey, you know more then I do. So I wouldn't mind picking your brain for ideas, even if it's not so much a treatise as much as some interesting tidbits to steer people in a fun direction.

you may love this kind of intrigue, but i've always found it taxing on my patience. there's a reason i'm plan c in my team. namely, "kill everything to death to scare the powerful into recognizing our authority". were i in an "only war" game, i've been recommended to play the commissar. some of my craziest dm's actually allowed me to follow through on my sociopathic quips. oftentimes, it shortened the plot considerably but made the difficulty rating a bit higher. oh well, can't make an omelette without breaking some faces, i always say. which if history is to be believed is pretty much how louis viii the lion managed to keep track of his nobles and competitors. and what do you know? we're smack dab in the middle of feudal france!

True, but in some ways, if you have a player like that...Why not give the nobles a silly reason to be at war with each other? I mean, you should accommodate all play styles and sometimes you need a reason for a scorched earth policy with certain nobility so that the player characters can take their place.

That and some things of nobility just amuse me greatly, such as Louis XIV (I think?) pacifying his nobles with the power of fabulousity!

[Guizonde]

Hey, you know more then I do. So I wouldn't mind picking your brain for ideas, even if it's not so much a treatise as much as some interesting tidbits to steer people in a fun direction.



True, but in some ways, if you have a player like that...Why not give the nobles a silly reason to be at war with each other? I mean, you should accommodate all play styles and sometimes you need a reason for a scorched earth policy with certain nobility so that the player characters can take their place.

That and some things of nobility just amuse me greatly, such as Louis XIV (I think?) pacifying his nobles with the power of fabulousity!

i'll get on it as soon as my schedule permits, then. we'll use the cave johnson technique: throw things at the wall and see what sticks.

the sun king did more than just outbling his nobles (twice). he was truly community property. there are specialists of all his lovers and mistresses, and it makes for quite a lurid read. dude was a bonobo. anyone he couldn't screw into peace he destroyed in war. and then of course, the bling. i mean, it takes a certain kind of flamboyant megalomaniac to build versailles as a "**** you" to a supposedly richer noble than the king (which the king proceeded to bankrupt into submission anyway). there's a reason when he died the rest of the european courts supposedly said as far as russia: "ladies and gentlemen, the king is dead." no matter the rank of the people present, everyone knew who "the king" was.

you want silly reasons for war? ever hear of the war of the stool? there are a few vids on youtube doing top tens of those. my personal favorite from a game:

dm: the kingdoms are at war.
me: what's the reason this time?
dm: it's an old edict that stipulates the kingdoms will enter war when the plot dictates it.

i love 4th wall breaks. i may have grinned like an idiot at my dm for that one.

[Blackhawk748]

Reminds me about a war over a bucket. Europe has had some incredibly stupid wars

[Lord Raziere]

Reminds me about a war over a bucket. Europe has had some incredibly stupid wars

Are they stupider than the Pig War between US and Britain? ......let me guess: Europe's stupid wars involved actual casualties.

[Blackhawk748]

Are they stupider than the Pig War between US and Britain? ......let me guess: Europe's stupid wars involved actual casualties.

Yup, 2000 casualties cuz one Italian City states soldiers stole a bucket from a different City States city well

[Honest Tiefling]

Reminds me about a war over a bucket. Europe has had some incredibly stupid wars

This is the type of pig-headedness and national pride I need in my games to justify violence, power mongering and crazy schemes. Through to be fair, wikipedia did say that the bucket was filled with loot...But for some reason they demanded the return of the bucket as well?

dude was a bonobo. anyone he couldn't screw into peace he destroyed in war. and then of course, the bling.

Minor nitpick, but despite a close relation to chimpanzees and humans, bonobos aren't terribly violent as a species. If anything, he managed to combine chimpanzee and bonobo tactics given your description.

[Segev]

Personally one thing that annoys me is how often people depict something looking like a medieval feudal kingdom but then forget to include any actual feudalism. Instead the king is portrayed as absolute ruler, the army is his army and the actual ruling is done via some well developed bureaucracy.

I hate that too. They call it feudalism, but it's actually just federalism with nobles.

re: feudalism. believe me, if people think about it as "federalism with nobles", it's because nobody outside of a master's degree in medieval european history has any understanding of exactly what went on from the xth to the xivth century in politics. i'd call it a can of worms, but it grossly understates the complexity and backstabbing that went on. a closer depiction of what went on would probably high school facebook drama, but with more bloodshed and inbreeding.

Wow, that is disappointing to hear. Feudalism - as it operates in theory (because holy crap finding it operating in practice in a "pure" form in history is nigh impossible) - is a fascinating recipe for intrigue and an interesting exercise in treating government like a business. Sharecropping, specifically. And the note of it being like high school politics is pretty good, too.

One thing I have oft wondered is if part of the reason the modern Western world sees fewer wars is because we don't consider people to be adults worthy of making government-level decisions until they're at least in their 20s. A lot of wars seem to be because powerful children, essentially, are in charge, and took offense at each other's "affronts" and got into pissing matches. Because they had armies at their disposal, they would go and treat armies and peasants as disposable pieces on a game board, acting like murdering a village was akin to spitting in the other nobles' eyes, rather than the horrific act of destruction and murder it was.

The wars weren't fought by those who benefited most from them, so the costs were born by those who had limited choice and thus war was "fine" to the nobility.

[Honest Tiefling]

I'm pretty sure that several factors don't help monarchs. First, you have your inbreeding and knowledge that your only marriage prospects are your cousins. Probably not making anyone's day!

Then you have the weird environment where you possibly have a strict upbringing coupled with the fact that people are either obeying you, or your closest family member. A combination of distance and forced obedience to whims probably isn't the best way to get a mature adult.

I don't know how common this was for nobility, but the idea that your closest family members might always be plotting against you probably isn't great for a person's mental state. It really does put Genghis Khan into a different light when you realize that he was nearly offed by his brother and booted out of his tribe at a VERY young age due to politics.

Thinking about this, it's probably a wonder Queen Victoria didn't end up torching a lot of things given how awful her childhood was.

[Blackhawk748]

I'm pretty sure that several factions don't help monarchs. First, you have your inbreeding and knowledge that your only marriage prospects are your cousins. Probably not making anyone's day!

Then you have the weird environment where you possibly have a strict upbringing coupled with the fact that people are either obeying you, or your closest family member. A combination of distance and forced obedience to whims probably isn't the best way to get a mature adult.

I don't know how common this was for nobility, but the idea that your closest family members might always be plotting against you probably isn't great for a person's mental state. It really does put Genghis Khan into a different light when you realize that he was nearly offed by his brother and booted out of his tribe at a VERY young age due to politics.

Thinking about this, it's probably a wonder Queen Victoria didn't end up torching a lot of things given how awful her childhood was.

Ya, Western and Southern Europe where a horrible mess of political backstabbing. Im fairly certain Eastern Europe wasnt significantly better, but there where significantly more smaller kingdoms so the inbreeding issue is less, so theres a plus.