Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You

[Sapphire Guard]

Ah. You're confusing "Sanderson's Law" with the rules of magic that follow it.

Sanderson's Law is nothing more or less than the assertion that the degree to which an author can use magic to solve problems in his story and still have it be a good story is directly proportional to how well-defined the rules of his magic are.

That is to say, if there aren't really all that many rules, and magic can just do whatever you say it can today, then it's not a good narrative tool because it's just "wish to make the problem go away." If, on the other hand, magic has well-defined rules, then the solution can come from magic while following those rules and have a solid sense of the story being solved by more than a hand-wave.

Having a large number of different magic systems doesn't preclude each one having rules.

I don't think I am, they're separate points. This is not some tirade against the existence of rules, I just think that it's one route of many rather than some higher truth. Sanderson himself cautions against treating his laws as absolutes in the articles that were linked, they're just his personal policies that work for him (which is not to denigrate them, they're just one path of many rather than some higher truth). And the whole reason I kept going with this in the first place was because upthread someone brought up Sanderson's laws to disprove the opinion of someone that didn't like overly explained magic systems.

Separately, as a personal taste thing, sometimes I find his magic systems a little too cut and dry to feel organic. But that's just me, some of the time.

[Personification]

I don't think I am, they're separate points. This is not some tirade against the existence of rules, I just think that it's one route of many rather than some higher truth. Sanderson himself cautions against treating his laws as absolutes in the articles that were linked, they're just his personal policies that work for him (which is not to denigrate them, they're just one path of many rather than some higher truth). And the whole reason I kept going with this in the first place was because upthread someone brought up Sanderson's laws to disprove the opinion of someone that didn't like overly explained magic systems.

Separately, as a personal taste thing, sometimes I find his magic systems a little too cut and dry to feel organic. But that's just me, some of the time.

I was not actually trying to disprove anyone's opinions, as that is, by definition, impossible, nor was I even using his "laws" to argue in favor of or against rules-based magic. I was merely stating that if someone didn't like rules based magic, then they either probably didn't like Brandon Sanderson, due to his use of it, or hadn't read his books and might, depending on whether or not they liked it, revise their general opinion about rules based magic. I actually brought up the laws of magic, which, by the way, do not favor rules-based or mysterious magic over the other, to support my claim that he was a good author and to show that he understood how to avoid the Deus ex Machina. My post may have seemed to be arguing for rules based magic, but that is due to accidental inclusion of personal bias (sorry).

[Bohandas]

*Mental powers/psychokinesis. The idea of doing things "with the power of your mind" seems solid at first glance but if looked at closely is nonsensical to the point of unintelligibility outside of a few specific circumstances (such as if they're in a dreamscape or if they're actually just interacting with an external energy field like in Star Wars).

Like really, thinking about it I'm not sure what "the power of your mind" is even supposed to mean in this context. It's a lot less coherent than spirits or woo-woo energy fields or whatnot; with those kind of things once we suspend disbelief and accept them as part of the setting it is clear how they could move things and manipulate the world.

*Multiple highly disparate religions in worlds with objectively real deities (explicitly local deities excluded)

*Multiple real deities with absolute control over the same thing; particular if it's a specific thing (such as the sun) rather than a class of things and they aren't all aspects of each other

[Mr Beer]

Like really, thinking about it I'm not sure what "the power of your mind" is even supposed to mean in this context.

Well, we only use 10% of our brains, so if we could harness the 90% that so-called "science" just doesn't understand...

[CharonsHelper]

Well, we only use 10% of our brains, so if we could harness the 90% that so-called "science" just doesn't understand...

Ugh - the 10% thing is one of those total BS "facts" which I'm tired of hearing. Simply not true.

[Max_Killjoy]

Ugh - the 10% thing is one of those total BS "facts" which I'm tired of hearing. Simply not true.

Same here... I've walked out in the middle of a professional presentation because the speaker repeated it as gospel fact.

[Deepbluediver]

*Mental powers/psychokinesis. The idea of doing things "with the power of your mind" seems solid at first glance but if looked at closely is nonsensical to the point of unintelligibility outside of a few specific circumstances (such as if they're in a dreamscape or if they're actually just interacting with an external energy field like in Star Wars).

When used in D&D, I always just thought of it as another flavor of magic. Practitioners can gussy it up however they want to impress and cow the uninitiated, but a lot of that is just for show. Do it long enough, and sometimes the show starts to take on a life of it's own.

[Segev]

Same here... I've walked out in the middle of a professional presentation because the speaker repeated it as gospel fact.

Since you're in a place where these happen, maybe you should give a professional presentation on the truth. That we use (approximately) 10% at any given point in time, as measured by MRIs and other scans for activity, but that which 10% we're using changes. 100% of our brain gets used.

In fact, if 100% of our brain was being used at once, that's called a gran mal seizure. Our brains' function requires periods of inactivity mixed with activity; thoughts take the form of patterns of activity cascading around, and there needs to be inactivity to provide the negative space for them to cascade through.

[Max_Killjoy]

Since you're in a place where these happen, maybe you should give a professional presentation on the truth. That we use (approximately) 10% at any given point in time, as measured by MRIs and other scans for activity, but that which 10% we're using changes. 100% of our brain gets used.

In fact, if 100% of our brain was being used at once, that's called a gran mal seizure. Our brains' function requires periods of inactivity mixed with activity; thoughts take the form of patterns of activity cascading around, and there needs to be inactivity to provide the negative space for them to cascade through.

To expound:

1) "Activity" and "inactivity" are relative, and scalar, not binary. "Inactivity" doesn't mean that part of the brain is utterly dormant and there's zero going on.

2) The brain is an intensely demanding organ... if we really only needed 10% of it, we wouldn't be carting around a relatively thin skull and all that extraneous energy-intensive highly-sensitive brain.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...-their-brains/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_pe...the_brain_myth
https://www.snopes.com/science/stats/10percent.asp
https://www.brainhq.com/brain-resour...rcent-of-brain
https://www.popsci.com/10-brain-myths-busted
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/2012...-of-our-brains

TLDR -- the 10% myth is pure garbage. In any given day we use 100% of our brain.

[Loxagn]

Pretty much the big trope that has always bothered me, more than anything else in fantasy, is the notion of Science and Magic as these opposite forces in the world. I'm not asking for a full dissertation on how and why magic works (though I, personally, would probably enjoy reading it), but I find it incredibly irksome for someone to say 'It's magic, it's not supposed to make sense'.
You see this all the time with the 'magic vs technology' idea, with magic somehow making basic chemistry and physics nonfunctioning just because it's there. Okay, electronics don't work around magic. Why? Does magic produce an electromagnetic field? Shouldn't it be easy to create shielded electronics then? Is magic somehow anathema to the works of Man and there is a resonance that builds in any item worked by human hands? HP is a big offender with this, frankly, and it bugs me when, instead of just saying 'We don't know, our best are trying to find the answer but we just don't know yet' the answer invariably seems to be 'It's magic'.

[rs2excelsior]

Pretty much the big trope that has always bothered me, more than anything else in fantasy, is the notion of Science and Magic as these opposite forces in the world. I'm not asking for a full dissertation on how and why magic works (though I, personally, would probably enjoy reading it), but I find it incredibly irksome for someone to say 'It's magic, it's not supposed to make sense'.
You see this all the time with the 'magic vs technology' idea, with magic somehow making basic chemistry and physics nonfunctioning just because it's there. Okay, electronics don't work around magic. Why? Does magic produce an electromagnetic field? Shouldn't it be easy to create shielded electronics then? Is magic somehow anathema to the works of Man and there is a resonance that builds in any item worked by human hands? HP is a big offender with this, frankly, and it bugs me when, instead of just saying 'We don't know, our best are trying to find the answer but we just don't know yet' the answer invariably seems to be 'It's magic'.

This was basically the only thing that seriously bothered me about the Dresden Files. If you want to say that magic interferes with electronics, sure, I can suspend disbelief long enough to buy that without too much explanation. But there magic interferes with "modern" technology, and what counts as "modern" changes as time goes on. Like, Harry carries a revolver because semi-automatic pistols, being newer, are somewhat unreliable around magic. But before semi-auto pistols were around, magic had the same effect on revolvers, too. Magic should either interfere with mechanical systems or not--both types of pistols just being different mechanical mechanisms.

[Segev]

If magic interferes with the known laws of physics, but this is a study-able phenomenon, that's fine by me. I get irked, however, when magic "defies science." If it defies science, it is unknowable and unrepeatable. You can't have mages or magical beings because magic wouldn't work the same way enough to allow such things to exist.

This was basically the only thing that seriously bothered me about the Dresden Files. If you want to say that magic interferes with electronics, sure, I can suspend disbelief long enough to buy that without too much explanation. But there magic interferes with "modern" technology, and what counts as "modern" changes as time goes on. Like, Harry carries a revolver because semi-automatic pistols, being newer, are somewhat unreliable around magic. But before semi-auto pistols were around, magic had the same effect on revolvers, too. Magic should either interfere with mechanical systems or not--both types of pistols just being different mechanical mechanisms.

Actually, Dresden Files has an interesting tidbit in one of the books. A century or two ago, mages caused flames to burn in strange colors by their presence. This is said as if it were only the penultimate in a line of strange effects magic has at one time had on the environment, with the "fries electronics" thing being the latest. It seems that magic has some impact on the most potent tools of man. What that impact is changes with man's technology and culture. It's not a well-explained phenomenon, in that there's no postulate given as to what this reflects and why magic would have a deleterious effect related to Man's understanding of the world, but it suggests at least one part of an outline which could be eventually completed and filled in to explain it.

Perhaps in another 50 years, all mages will be able to use computers and cell phones, but quantum computers will glitch and relativistic drives will suffer catastrophic negative space wedgies when mages are around them.

[Max_Killjoy]

Discussion of Sanderson's First Law:

http://www.writingexcuses.com/2008/0...d-their-rules/
http://www.writingexcuses.com/2008/0...ions-of-magic/

@ Segev -- sounds like it's the difference between:

1) establishing at earlier points in the fiction that each soul is a "spark of the divine light of the gods", that one character's magic involves making contact between his soul and the soul of his target, and that another character "soul" is shard of primordial dark/void instead of a spark of light... so that when the former character tries to use his magic against the latter character in chapter 30, it's not a surprise when he suffers horrible waking nightmare visions instead of being able to manipulate her.

2) just dropping that backlash out of nowhere and surprise-revealing that the latter character has this strange thing about her.

[CharonsHelper]

Actually, Dresden Files has an interesting tidbit in one of the books. A century or two ago, mages caused flames to burn in strange colors by their presence.

I will say - while I really like the series and agree that Dresden Files explains magic & tech not playing together pretty well (I remember Butters guessing at an electromagnetic field) - the series isn't exactly totally consistent on that or other world-building issues.

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On the front of magic & tech not playing well, in the first 3 books (the 1st 3 were written before any were published - so that may be the reason *shrug*) the series talks specifically about tech not working well around all supernaturals such as vampires and werewolves. Starting in the fourth book it starts talking about how it's only/primarily mortal wizards who mess with tech - allowing vampires to use airplanes to out-travel wizards without the ways which Dresden secured due to exploits in book 4.

Though - that's mostly me being super-picky about world-building consistency. Still WAY more internally consistent than the other wizard name Harry's series.

[BRC]

If magic interferes with the known laws of physics, but this is a study-able phenomenon, that's fine by me. I get irked, however, when magic "defies science." If it defies science, it is unknowable and unrepeatable. You can't have mages or magical beings because magic wouldn't work the same way enough to allow such things to exist.


Actually, Dresden Files has an interesting tidbit in one of the books. A century or two ago, mages caused flames to burn in strange colors by their presence. This is said as if it were only the penultimate in a line of strange effects magic has at one time had on the environment, with the "fries electronics" thing being the latest. It seems that magic has some impact on the most potent tools of man. What that impact is changes with man's technology and culture. It's not a well-explained phenomenon, in that there's no postulate given as to what this reflects and why magic would have a deleterious effect related to Man's understanding of the world, but it suggests at least one part of an outline which could be eventually completed and filled in to explain it.

Perhaps in another 50 years, all mages will be able to use computers and cell phones, but quantum computers will glitch and relativistic drives will suffer catastrophic negative space wedgies when mages are around them.

Yeah, I'm not sure there was any period where Magic interfered with the function of purely mechanical devices.


In the actual books, Magic pretty exclusively is shown to specifically interfere with Electronics. Harry says "Modern Technology", because in his (And most people's) minds, "Technology" refers to things like phones and cameras and computers, the modern versions of which all involve complex electronics.

If it was really interfering with the whole of "Modern Technology", then wizards would also be disrupting stuff like pharmaceuticals and thermal fabrics, which are just as much "Modern Technology" as a cell phone.

[CharonsHelper]

Yeah, I'm not sure there was any period where Magic interfered with the function of purely mechanical devices.

Yes it does. It messes with Harry's car The Blue Beetle - which is far too old to have electronics.

He specifically has an old beetle because the basic tech makes it screw up less (though not zero) and because it's cheap to repair.

In the first book it causes a pistol to jam. (though that seems to be something which he mostly did away with in the later books as he reduced the amount magic interfered with tech)

[Max_Killjoy]

Yeah, I'm not sure there was any period where Magic interfered with the function of purely mechanical devices.


In the actual books, Magic pretty exclusively is shown to specifically interfere with Electronics. Harry says "Modern Technology", because in his (And most people's) minds, "Technology" refers to things like phones and cameras and computers, the modern versions of which all involve complex electronics.

If it was really interfering with the whole of "Modern Technology", then wizards would also be disrupting stuff like pharmaceuticals and thermal fabrics, which are just as much "Modern Technology" as a cell phone.

Which touches on a somewhat cliche element I really don't care for -- "What if electricity stopped working?" If electricity stops working, you don't need to worry about not having phones and lights anymore, because all matter in the universe from atoms on up just flew apart at a descent fraction of the speed of light, have a good day.

[rs2excelsior]

Actually, Dresden Files has an interesting tidbit in one of the books. A century or two ago, mages caused flames to burn in strange colors by their presence. This is said as if it were only the penultimate in a line of strange effects magic has at one time had on the environment, with the "fries electronics" thing being the latest. It seems that magic has some impact on the most potent tools of man. What that impact is changes with man's technology and culture. It's not a well-explained phenomenon, in that there's no postulate given as to what this reflects and why magic would have a deleterious effect related to Man's understanding of the world, but it suggests at least one part of an outline which could be eventually completed and filled in to explain it.

Perhaps in another 50 years, all mages will be able to use computers and cell phones, but quantum computers will glitch and relativistic drives will suffer catastrophic negative space wedgies when mages are around them.

Maybe I didn't explain properly (and it's been a while since I read the books), but that's what I meant. The fact that the degree to which magic messes with a given technology changes over time. If magic breaks computers now, why should it not have that effect a hundred years from now just because more advanced computers are around? If mages caused strange-colored fires centuries ago, why don't they anymore?

Don't get me wrong, I loved the books--this was the only thing that really didn't set well with me (and, since technology doesn't really advance over the course of the series, I can mostly just ignore it )

[CharonsHelper]

Maybe I didn't explain properly (and it's been a while since I read the books), but that's what I meant. The fact that the degree to which magic messes with a given technology changes over time. If magic breaks computers now, why should it not have that effect a hundred years from now just because more advanced computers are around? If mages caused strange-colored fires centuries ago, why don't they anymore?

In Dresden's world the basic laws of magic change of the centuries, as do varies magical beings' relationship to the world.

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In the latter books when you find out that the winter fey are the immune system of the world against the outsiders and in a constant war against them, they mention that that role was done by others in the past.

Plus - they even mention that a knowledge and/or lack thereof of various entities by humans actually affects how much they can interact with the world. So - how humanity feels about various tech changing how magic interacts with it isn't out of place.

So - while it isn't totally explained (and since it's a 1st person book series & Dresden doesn't know the specifics that totally fits) the changing of the rules of magic is mostly consistent. (albeit the changing per book based upon the story's needs is a bit irksome - the concept remains valid)

[pwykersotz]

You all are weird. I love magic and science not getting along. In D&D I express this as Law (Technology) versus Chaos (Magic). Magic and technology being basically the same thing annoys me to no end. In Sanderson terms I like my Soft Magic systems for fantasy, and my Hard Magic systems for sci-fi.

[Max_Killjoy]

You all are weird. I love magic and science not getting along. In D&D I express this as Law (Technology) versus Chaos (Magic). Magic and technology being basically the same thing annoys me to no end. In Sanderson terms I like my Soft Magic systems for fantasy, and my Hard Magic systems for sci-fi.

So no reliable spells or consistently-functioning magic items?

[pwykersotz]

So no reliable spells or consistently-functioning magic items?

I prefer less codified magic systems, yes. I have to make concessions because D&D is my system of choice. I reconcile it by making the difference more on the macro level and having the whims of magic take place over generations, so that the chaotic changes don't affect a given wizard in a typical lifetime, but still allows me to have an explosive result when some fool tries to create Magitek Armor. And beware magical clocks, they are never what they seem.

[Loxagn]

'Technology' is such a nebulous term, though. Anything can be technology, from the first ape that learned how to smash two rocks together to make sharper rocks all the way up to and beyond uploading your consciousness into a drone body. Where does it end? A wand is technology, is it not? It's a tool crafted with intent to be used for a purpose. Even if you just pick up a rock and enchant it to do a thing, it becomes a tool to do that thing. It becomes technology.
Does magic have any rules whatsoever, or is it a constant chaotic flux on the world, as unpredictable as the wind? If it's the latter, then you can't really have spellcasters, now can you? Nobody in their right mind is going to try to actively utilize a force that's as likely to heal a wound as it is to turn the wielder into a sheep. It'd be like trying to make a hammer out of francium; unpredictable at best, invariably lethal at worst.
I'm not saying that there has to be perfect harmony between computers and magic wands, but there has to be at the very least a reason for it. If you want to say that magic produces an electromagnetic field that plays merry hell with electronics, that's fine! If you want to say that processing a material builds a dissonance in that material that interferes with the magic of resonance, meaning magical tools have to be extremely low-tech, the lower-tech the better, with the highest quality being pure uncut jewels with complex enchantments and the cheapest spells being simple charms on weapons to make them a little bit lighter or a smidgen sharper, that's fine too.
But don't just say that magic and 'technology' don't work together because Magic is Magic.

[Segev]

Maybe I didn't explain properly (and it's been a while since I read the books), but that's what I meant. The fact that the degree to which magic messes with a given technology changes over time. If magic breaks computers now, why should it not have that effect a hundred years from now just because more advanced computers are around? If mages caused strange-colored fires centuries ago, why don't they anymore?

Don't get me wrong, I loved the books--this was the only thing that really didn't set well with me (and, since technology doesn't really advance over the course of the series, I can mostly just ignore it )

See, I assume it's a statement that magic is not inherently anti-electronic, or anti-tech. It's that mages have some weirdness around them that manifests in different ways based on the zeitgeist of the time. How, specifically, "electronics" are 'chosen' as the target now, while "fire" was in the past, and whatever will be in the future, is not specified. I hope that Bucher has an idea of what the real underlying cause is. I could probably posit one, but I haven't come up with a "rule" I like well enough to share just yet.

[pwykersotz]

'Technology' is such a nebulous term, though. Anything can be technology, from the first ape that learned how to smash two rocks together to make sharper rocks all the way up to and beyond uploading your consciousness into a drone body. Where does it end? A wand is technology, is it not? It's a tool crafted with intent to be used for a purpose. Even if you just pick up a rock and enchant it to do a thing, it becomes a tool to do that thing. It becomes technology.
Does magic have any rules whatsoever, or is it a constant chaotic flux on the world, as unpredictable as the wind? If it's the latter, then you can't really have spellcasters, now can you? Nobody in their right mind is going to try to actively utilize a force that's as likely to heal a wound as it is to turn the wielder into a sheep. It'd be like trying to make a hammer out of francium; unpredictable at best, invariably lethal at worst.
I'm not saying that there has to be perfect harmony between computers and magic wands, but there has to be at the very least a reason for it. If you want to say that magic produces an electromagnetic field that plays merry hell with electronics, that's fine! If you want to say that processing a material builds a dissonance in that material that interferes with the magic of resonance, meaning magical tools have to be extremely low-tech, the lower-tech the better, with the highest quality being pure uncut jewels with complex enchantments and the cheapest spells being simple charms on weapons to make them a little bit lighter or a smidgen sharper, that's fine too.
But don't just say that magic and 'technology' don't work together because Magic is Magic.

Oh trust me, I don't just say that. I only boil it down to that for forum threads where I don't want to start crazy nitpick fights that derail a thread more than it already has been. Rest assured, I have guidelines.

[Loxagn]

Oh trust me, I don't just say that. I only boil it down to that for forum threads where I don't want to start crazy nitpick fights that derail a thread more than it already has been. Rest assured, I have guidelines.

... Point taken, my apologies. It's a thing I'm passionate about, and I have been known to get a bit... testy about it.

[pwykersotz]

... Point taken, my apologies. It's a thing I'm passionate about, and I have been known to get a bit... testy about it.

No worries at all! There's a lot of passion in these threads. I just love hearing the ideas. Because you're right, every point you raise needs to be considered. It's not as simple as a pithy one liner.

[Dublinmarley]

I never post but I will toss a few comments down on some of these topics.

Sexy vampires make complete sense to me. Make 1000 random people a vampire and over the course of several hundred years their spawn will most likely want to make more vampires from people who they find attractive. It is not like the newly turned vamp will want to go bite the local over weight manure farmer. They will select victims more based on those they want to spend the rest of eternity with unless they are just feeding. Tome of Bill series has lots of comments on this very argument.

What bothers me more is the fact you never find baby vampires or senior citizens vampires. Nothing gets a better reaction from the party investigating why orphans have been going missing than eventually getting chased by crawling vampires. Just the mental image of the paladin bashing babies still brings a smile to my face.

No issue with evil races. They are biologically different and worship evil gods which some are the only god of their race. Pretty safe to say if I get attacked 50% or whatever percent or more on sight by a race my willingness to have rational discourse with them leans a lot towards shoot first ask questions later.

Magic being everywhere but the mage school cant even pave the roads around the city and I am walking in mud. Every nation that has been around for hundreds of years should be so warped by magical construction that it should be everywhere. DND and Pathfinder are horrible about this with their campaign worlds. Small town has several high level wizards but has a wooden wall around the city. Its to the point that I think a lot of the people who write campaign worlds don't even actually play the game.

Elf vs Elf wars are great. Never have monolithic races. Have evil surface elven nations and have good ones.

[Mr Beer]

Well, we only use 10% of our brains, so if we could harness the 90% that so-called "science" just doesn't understand...

Ugh - the 10% thing is one of those total BS "facts" which I'm tired of hearing. Simply not true.

Yeah, I ran a campaign once in which one of the players was training to be a neurosurgeon IRL, so I took care to mention this "fact" every session. In return he'd hit me with "that d20 rolled two 20s in a row so it's statistically more likely to roll 1s next".

Good times.

[Arbane]

No issue with evil races. They are biologically different and worship evil gods which some are the only god of their race. Pretty safe to say if I get attacked 50% or whatever percent or more on sight by a race my willingness to have rational discourse with them leans a lot towards shoot first ask questions later.

In a campaign that (sadly) recently ended, one detail the GM let me put in (or at least, my character strongly believed) was that the Fantasy Norse humans and orcs were worshiping the same gods. ("The king of the gods is one-eyed, wise, and loves warfare - who'd I just describe?" ) Really, orc raiders are often just Everything Bad About Vikings, but with less frequent bathing.

Magic being everywhere but the mage school cant even pave the roads around the city and I am walking in mud. Every nation that has been around for hundreds of years should be so warped by magical construction that it should be everywhere. DND and Pathfinder are horrible about this with their campaign worlds. Small town has several high level wizards but has a wooden wall around the city. Its to the point that I think a lot of the people who write campaign worlds don't even actually play the game.

Doesn't make any sense in D&D (where magic is safe, cheap, and reliable), but there's plenty of settings where using magic for common tasks would be about as safe and sensible as banging two chunks of plutonium together in hopes of sparking a fire. (And conversely, settings like Glorantha or Eberron where magic IS commonplace and industrialized.)

Elf vs Elf wars are great. Never have monolithic races. Have evil surface elven nations and have good ones.

I'm confused. There's non-evil elves?