OOTS #1100 - The Discussion Thread

[Riftwolf]

It was obvious to me from the first time we saw them (last panel) that they were underground. Don't know why anyone got any other impression.



But apparently some people did.

I guess it was because there was so much setup of the door being impassable, it felt weird that the vampdwarfs could ignore it and complete their tasks quicker.
That and the space in front of the door looked kinda roomy for an underground door.

[Dilvish]

It also requires a burial that creates their special coffin home. I imagine as long that process is disrupted somehow (cremation, don't bury the body, don't use a coffin in the burial, holy wafers, etc.) eventually the Negative Energy in the corpse will fail to form into a vampire spirit and disperse.

A proper burial ceremony of a cleric's faith could be enough to prevent the corpse rising as a vampire. I think the various faiths would make 'death by undead' provisions in their burial rites.

[Alcore]

I guess it was because there was so much setup of the door being impassable, it felt weird that the vampdwarfs could ignore it and complete their tasks quicker.
That and the space in front of the door looked kinda roomy for an underground door.

They're dwarves; building dragon/balor sized complexes is what they do. Like they know they won't be around forever so it's sized for future residence.

[alwaysbebatman]

Argh, I hate being wrong.

Thank you for the correction.

Hey, I hear you-- I hate being wrong, too.

But being willing to admit when the evidence is not on your side is more important than always being right.

Some say that I can't admit when the evidence is against me, but, y'know....

...they're wrong...

[dtilque]

I guess it was because there was so much setup of the door being impassable, it felt weird that the vampdwarfs could ignore it and complete their tasks quicker.
That and the space in front of the door looked kinda roomy for an underground door.

Other posts upthread have covered why the vamps wanted to get into the temple, although I'll admit, that wasn't obvious at first. ETA: I thought they just wanted to neutralize a potential threat.

As for the size of the passage leading to it, it's the main (possibly, only) entrance to the temple from the rest of the town. You want a large passage so the congregation can get in and out without difficulty.

[Manty5]

Hmmm. I really think that a lot of Belkar's "evil" genuinely is amorality.

Well, in this specific example it seems to be so. V has had a lot of same type of amoral lines in this comic throughout. Now, whether that's neutralism showing up as he shucks off the vestiges of pure evil as he slowly changes alignments, or just a one-off joke that happened to not be full evil... has been debated before and will probably occupy this thread if we let it. So lets not, and see what the guy driving the plot has to say on the matter.

[alwaysbebatman]

It was definitely confusing at first that the Vamps were trying and failing to get through a door to the same place with the same kind of magic key, but it was a completely different door.

[8BitNinja]

Turns out the Order's new friend is going to fit right in.

[alwaysbebatman]

Well, in this specific example it seems to be so. V has had a lot of same type of amoral lines in this comic throughout. Now, whether that's neutralism showing up as he shucks off the vestiges of pure evil as he slowly changes alignments, or just a one-off joke that happened to not be full evil... has been debated before and will probably occupy this thread if we let it. So lets not, and see what the guy driving the plot has to say on the matter.

Hm, well, to me, Vaarsuvius's "if you get in the way of my goals, I may use deadly means to get you out, and really that's kind of your fault" is Neutral and not really what I would call amoral.

Belkar is more "I actually have to be reminded that other people care about people living or dying, and don't at all understand why they do..."

[hroþila]

Hm, well, to me, Vaarsuvius's "if you get in the way of my goals, I may use deadly means to get you out, and really that's kind of your fault" is Neutral and not really what I would call amoral.

Belkar is more "I actually have to be reminded that other people care about people living or dying, and don't at all understand why they do..."

To me, the first thing you describe is standard (but undisputable) Evil, while the second one is a psychopathic brand of Evil.

[alwaysbebatman]

Really? What if my goal is "keep my family safe" and someone got in the way of that goal by breaking into my home?

"I may use deadly force if I think it is necessary" is little more than self-defense.

ETA: Just to try to avoid misunderstanding, I am NOT saying that all of Vaarsuvius's actions after the fall of Azure City fall under that. Rather that that was the elf's starting point before they started sliding down a slippery slope.

[Yxylu]

Any idea where Mr. Scruffy goes in panel 7? He's right next to Belkar in panels 6 and 8, but he's gone in between.

Phase cat?

[Manty5]

Hm, well, to me, Vaarsuvius's "if you get in the way of my goals, I may use deadly means to get you out, and really that's kind of your fault" is Neutral and not really what I would call amoral.

Belkar is more "I actually have to be reminded that other people care about people living or dying, and don't at all understand why they do..."

I disagree.

Sadism: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0020.html

Trampling others' feelings until called out: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0127.html

My status is much more important than the party's: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0185.html

Why help mere peasants, anyway?: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0213.html

It's not just one joke, it's a way of life for her/him/it: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0679.html

I could get even more and stronger examples by exploring the section where she/he/it went nuts after Roy died, but I don't feel it was acting like itself at that time.

[hroþila]

Really? What if my goal is "keep my family safe" and someone got in the way of that goal by breaking into my home?

"I may use deadly force if I think it is necessary" is little more than self-defense.

Well, yeah, but then that's not what you described in your previous post.

[danielxcutter]

Heh, usually Elan was the one to over-think these things.

[alwaysbebatman]

I disagree.

Sadism: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0020.html

If enjoying stopping and harming someone who is actively attempting to kill you and your companions is wrong, I don't wanna be right.

Trampling others' feelings until called out: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0127.html

It's definitely more notable to me that Vaarsuvius had the capacity to admit that they were in the wrong and try to make amends. Lots of people don't do that. We don't call those people evil, just inconsiderate.

My status is much more important than the party's: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0185.html

Yes, Vaarsuvius places their needs and wants above those of others. That's Neutral.

Why help mere peasants, anyway?: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0213.html

Lots of people in the world need help, why help the ones you happen across? When the whole world needs saving, and the time to do so isn't infinite. That attitude may not be right, but it ain't evil.

It's not just one joke, it's a way of life for her/him/it: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0679.html

I'm not sure why this page was included. Because Vaarsuvius has a temper that can be exploited? Or because they are a neglectful companion? Neither is evil.

I could get even more and stronger examples by exploring the section where she/he/it went nuts after Roy died, but I don't feel it was acting like itself at that time.

In this we agree. I mean, Vaarsuvius wasn't acting out of character, but they were acting like themself under very specific and severe stresses and temptations.

Actually, you left out the one I think is the most damning. (Not counting the stuff we already agreed not to count.)

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0335.html

On the one hand, doubting the true sapience of a fellow sophont, even as a joke, is definitely on a slippery slope to capital-E Evil.

On the other hand, I think the idea that Belkar seems to be missing some of the normal emotional range ain't false.

[Goblin_Priest]

Am I alone in thinking 'oh, so that door the vamps attacked was underground then'?

Yea, so they... fled back underground? Into the dwarven tunnels?

[Matt620]

Replacement Cleric Lady is adorable. Other than a few pacing issues, I'm starting to feel good about this comic again.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Yea, so they... fled back underground? Into the dwarven tunnels?

"Fled"? Fleeing implies that they were threatened. They couldn't go in the temple to set up an ambush there, so they moved the ambush elsewhere.

And of course they go into the tunnels. That gets them closer to the council they want to dominate.

GW

[ti'esar]

For some reason this was one of my favorite punchlines in quite a while.

And that is a lot more dead dwarven soldiers than it looked like before. Yikes.

[EccentricFellow]

Heh,heh,heh. She is, of couse, a natural fit for OOTS. Is she too familiar though? Would hate to be competing for the same punchlines with established characters. Time will tell.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I’m starting to really like Minrah. Hopefully this isn’t set up for something tragic later.

[Skull the Troll]

Query: will all these dead dwarves rise as vampires? Can anything be done to prevent that, like cutting off their heads or staking them? I've always been a little fuzzy regarding D&D's rules for vampires.

Doesn't really matter- these aren't "official" D&D rules for vampires. The rule in the comic seems to be (but isn't confirmed) to be drained to the last drop. And then spend 3 days in a grave, as it seems unlikely that that Durkon researched the spell off the staff before losing it.

[alwaysbebatman]

Also, I doubt there was another option besides tunnels. There's a main gate: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0947.html

And the Temple of Thor's backdoor for weather studies.

The rest of Firmament is all tunnels, I expect.

[Matt620]

I’m starting to really like Minrah. Hopefully this isn’t set up for something tragic later.

If she was a throwaway character, she wouldn't be interesting at all, no?

[davidbofinger]

Given vampires drink rather than eat, they're less like food wrappers than dead marines.

[alwaysbebatman]

If she was a throwaway character, she wouldn't be interesting at all, no?

If she wasn't interesting at all, her death wouldn't be tragic. Her shirt is 100% red.

[Alcore]

If she wasn't interesting at all, her death wouldn't be tragic. Her shirt is 100% red.

Shirt color unconfirmed. Still a temporary member.

[Basement Cat]

Maybe I'm a little dense but it makes sense that Rich would include Minrah: Didn't he say that he was aware that aside from Haley the comic is basically a "sausage fest" and he was consciously working to balance things out?

Well, first we had Bandana and Andy playing bigger parts and now we have Minrah.

Unfortunately this means those of us shipping Minrah and a resurrected Durkon could be out of luck--she's not that kind of girl NPC.

[Kish]

Really? What if my goal is[...]

Introducing "the goal is justifiable" or "the goal is anything specific at all" is a goalpost-move. You said that being willing to murder and victim-blame people for getting in the way of "my goals" was Neutral--not "my goal to protect my family, as entirely distinct from my obsessive pursuit of power."