OOTS #1100 - The Discussion Thread

[alwaysbebatman]

That was goal-post moving? I'd call it more "hey, I never specified that goal post!" Being willing to take the steps you believe are necessary to defend what you believe is important from those who are actively trying to stop you is not necessarily evil.

I will concede "in the way" was bad wording, I did not mean someone who happens to be accidentally an obstacle. I was referring to (a dismissive way of referring to) someone who is actively opposing one, someone who has purposefully made themself one's enemy.

[dtilque]

Yea, so they... fled back underground? Into the dwarven tunnels?

Let's get this straight.

Firmament is virtually all underground.

The temple has two doors: 1) the main one that's underground. It exits to a tunnel. 2) a private door to the surface where the priests can view the weather.

The vampires teleported to INSIDE the town of Firmament, so they've been underground since they left the Godsmoot. Durkula, going by info gained from Durkon, attacked the temple after most of the clerics were gone for the day, but before they'd locked the doors for the night. We saw the ending of that when they were draining Brother Sandstone. ETA: Now the vampires are going to this banquet hall to make their preparations for fighting the Order. They aren't fleeing there; it's just that they need a large area and they can't get in the temple. It's underground, but then so is the rest of the town.

The Order came to the outside door. They were led to it by the key the HPoT gave Roy. Now they're leaving by the underground door.

Is that clear or do we have to draw diagrams?

And that is a lot more dead dwarven soldiers than it looked like before. Yikes.

About twice as many. We saw Brother Sandstone and parts of 3 or 4 other victims. Now we see 8 bodies.

[Jasdoif]

That was goal-post moving? I'd call it more "hey, I never specified that goal post!" Being willing to take the steps you believe are necessary to defend what you believe is important from those who are actively trying to stop you is not necessarily evil.

Well, walking back from "Neutral" to "not necessarily evil" is pretty much goal-post moving, yes. As is walking back from "may use deadly means" to "take the steps you believe are necessary", and from "my goals" to "what you believe is important", come to think of it....

[alwaysbebatman]

Okay, I'll grant you that what I originally said was worded inexactly...

[skaddix]

Maybe I'm a little dense but it makes sense that Rich would include Minrah: Didn't he say that he was aware that aside from Haley the comic is basically a "sausage fest" and he was consciously working to balance things out?

Well, first we had Bandana and Andy playing bigger parts and now we have Minrah.

Unfortunately this means those of us shipping Minrah and a resurrected Durkon could be out of luck--she's not that kind of girl NPC.

How relevant Minrah is really depends on what happens with Durkon?

I mean you expect one of the Clerics at least who voted for Don't Kill Earth Yet to be high enough to be able to True Rez.
And they oh the heroes a favor. But if Durkon stays gone Minrah might be more relevant.

[alwaysbebatman]

Well, y'know AND if she survives.

I'm on the record as saying that I think the Order will regain their full complement soon, but I think Minrah's lack of levels will be an obstacle to her filling that role.

[FlawedParadigm]

Nice comic, following you on twitter really helps keeping up with the updates

How I wish this were true for me. I follow over 8k people though, Rich's notifications never seem to pop up. Probably something I can do about that but I'm too Twitter-noob to figure it out intuitively and haven't explored all the menus.

[M.A.D]

Wow, thanks for the strip, Giant!

That was brutal. I thought that most people went home and they had only a few people left when the vampire attacked. It never occurred to me that it took a major casualty just to hold them off, and the only survivors were the lower-leveled members who stayed at the back row.

[FlawedParadigm]

Heh, usually Elan was the one to over-think these things.

I've been reading this strip too long. "Elan" and "over-think" still don't seem to me like they go in the same paragraph, much less sentence.

Also, is it horrible of me that I already like Minrah more than I ever did Durkon the Living? I feel bad about that, but she's much less "stale" I guess.

Being fair, I have a heavy slant towards the neutral/chaotic side of the law vs. chaos axis with most characters. Usually only lawful if required to be. Putting the rules first or even on the top three list is not something I feel consistently comfortable with.

[PBlades]

Going for the RP xp pretty hard there, huh.

[alwaysbebatman]

Wow, thanks for the strip, Giant!

That was brutal. I thought that most people went home and they had only a few people left when the vampire attacked. It never occurred to me that it took a major casualty just to hold them off, and the only survivors were the lower-leveled members who stayed at the back row.

No, you were right-- most of the people had gone home. Brother Sandstone was the only cleric in the crowd of victims. Not sure if the others were guards who are assigned to Thor's temple, or a squadron that was sent to investigate the commotion, or what. But they had a lot of hammers and shields among them, and they were all but one dressed like Minrah, except minus the holy symbol. So I'm pretty sure most of them were guards.

[Anarion]

Interesting comic. OOTS has wracked up a fair number of comics where the view is filled with corpses at this point. V struck me as surprisingly at ease with it, perhaps focused on their work and trying to ignore it.

[Garwain]

Brother Sandstone passed away much too quickly as my first reaction was to loot his corpse...

[alwaysbebatman]

Interesting comic. OOTS has wracked up a fair number of comics where the view is filled with corpses at this point. V struck me as surprisingly at ease with it, perhaps focused on their work and trying to ignore it.

I suspect that rooms filled with corpses that the elf is NOT directly responsible for don't have the same effect. Girard's Pyramid was just another day at the office until they saw the Draketooth family tree...

[Rack]

And there was me thinking the Giant wasn't going to do anything special for issue 1100. This might be the funniest page yet.

[schmunzel]

Well, in this specific example it seems to be so. V has had a lot of same type of amoral lines in this comic throughout. Now, whether that's neutralism showing up as he shucks off the vestiges of pure evil as he slowly changes alignments, or just a one-off joke that happened to not be full evil... has been debated before and will probably occupy this thread if we let it. So lets not, and see what the guy driving the plot has to say on the matter.

I would go so far to say that these comments are meant to show that he hasnt learned about empathy yet.
Belkar is moving slowly - everything else wouldnt be believable.
Another poster in this thread expressed it as - *he hasnt connected the lines yet and someone he care about has to die first.*
Or was it the previous thread?
How far he will get on his road to redemption is open to debate

sch

[skaddix]

I am not sure how much alignment Belkar has shifted really.
I think he cares about the rest of the OOTS more but that doesn't make him less Evil necessarily.
After all he has vested interest in the world not getting nuked.

[JbeJ275]

Well Minrah is doomed, she implied she wouldn't die for a while and that her death would be in an unrelated battle, thus her death must be very soon and in an entirely related battle, that is just how these things work.

[mouser9169]

Great comic. Minrah looks like she'll be with the party a while. I don't think she'll be permanent, but one of the 'major part-timers' like Bandana or even Veldrina. Loving Elan's commentary.

Aside on Belkar - He's evil, and I kind of hope he stays that way. Love his character and growth, but lets not change him too much. He's got a great big afterlife waiting for him to conquer. Mark my words, he will become a very literal Sexy, Shoeless God of War one day.

[Goblin_Priest]

Well Minrah is doomed, she implied she wouldn't die for a while and that her death would be in an unrelated battle, thus her death must be very soon and in an entirely related battle, that is just how these things work.

Agreed.

Red Shirt spotted. Next thing we know she'll say she has family to go home to, maybe she'll even show a picture.

[Kareasint]

Given vampires drink rather than eat, they're less like food wrappers than dead marines.

I saw them as drink pouches with the straw removed.

[Kish]

Hm, well, to me, Vaarsuvius's "if you get in the way of my goals, I may use deadly means to get you out, and really that's kind of your fault" is Neutral and not really what I would call amoral.

Well, walking back from "Neutral" to "not necessarily evil" is pretty much goal-post moving, yes. As is walking back from "may use deadly means" to "take the steps you believe are necessary", and from "my goals" to "what you believe is important", come to think of it....

And attempting to claim "I never specified that goalpost!" serves to indicate that you'll say whatever you want to "win," as well. The assertion was clear, unambiguous, and horrendous. It was worded quite exactly, you just dropped what it said like a hot potato one post later.

[alwaysbebatman]

I'm not really all that interested in "winning." I'm not even sure what that means in this case. Convincing you that I'm right? I'm perfectly aware that'll never happen. Do I need to concede that what I said was incorrect? No problem, already done.

But are you saying that I'm not allowed to say that I didn't mean something the way it's been interpreted? And even if I acknowledge that it's my fault and I was unclear, I am obviously lying and meant exactly what you think I meant and can only be supposedly "clarifying" what I meant because I can't stand to "lose."

To say the least, that's not as fair as you seem to think it is.

Allow me to clarify now, I do not wish to play your reindeer games. If I make a statement, propose a hypothetical, or ask a question, it is to increase understanding of one another's views, it is not to win a debate which is inherently unwinnable and for which there is no prize.

[talkamancer]

.

Allow me to clarify now, I do not wish to play your reindeer games. If I make a statement, propose a hypothetical, or ask a question, it is to increase understanding of one another's views, it is not to win a debate which is inherently unwinnable and for which there is no prize.

May I add this to my Sig ?

[Kardwill]

Agreed.

Red Shirt spotted. Next thing we know she'll say she has family to go home to, maybe she'll even show a picture.

Well, Durkon wanted to go back home, and showed us (and Greg) plenty of pictures of his family.
Okay, he showed them AFTER he died, so he's doing the trope backward, but still ^^

[Kish]

Do I need to concede that what I said was incorrect? No problem, already done.

No, you "conceded" that what you had said was supposedly "worded inexactly," not exact and exactly stating that someone who freely murdered anyone who got in the way of their goals and victim-blamed them for that getting in the way was Neutral and not amoral. The fact that the character you were talking about has a history of obsessive power-lust and brutal sadism also serves to obviate any argument that anyone should have guessed somehow that you didn't mean what you said; it's quite a selective reading that would translate "Vaarsuvius' goals" to something noble by default. Since then, every comment you've made here has been trying to position yourself as occupying some kind of moral high ground, not by either supporting or retracting what you said but by refusing to acknowledge it.

I have no more interest in continued engagement with someone who is willing to misrepresent things he said that are still on the same page than you do with someone who thinks you should take responsibility for what you actually said, so it seems we have reached an agreement of irreconcilable discord.

[Mandor]

I really had completely unwarranted and never-gonna-happen hopes for something quirky and humorous like Fruit Pie the Sorceror.
But I suppose plot-wise, we're past that kind of humor, and into the Srs Bsns stages.

[Kish]

Past that kind of humor, yes. Over a thousand strips and four books past.

If "srs bsns" is meant to imply no humor at all, on the other hand, no; there's quite a bit of humor in this comic. It just doesn't entirely interrupt the (currently rather grim) situational backdrop, like Fruit Pie the Sorcerer did.

Edited: Oh, I think I figured something out--your post looked completely random to me, but you're talking about the strip number being #1100, aren't you?

[alwaysbebatman]

May I add this to my Sig ?

Wear it in good health.

[Peelee]

How I wish this were true for me. I follow over 8k people though, Rich's notifications never seem to pop up. Probably something I can do about that but I'm too Twitter-noob to figure it out intuitively and haven't explored all the menus.

Great googly moogly. i don't even want to know 8,000 people.