Minrah, new permanent member of the order?

[hroþila]

No, I don't agree it won't happen, I merely think other alternatives are more likely. I don't see it as an outlandish possibility, or as something that should simply be dismissed out of hand, much less derided, when other forumers bring it up.

[Keltest]

No, I don't agree it won't happen, I merely think other alternatives are more likely. I don't see it as an outlandish possibility, or as something that should simply be dismissed out of hand, much less derided, when other forumers bring it up.

Personally, I consider the idea that Durkon staying permanently dead equates any sort of character development or sacrifice on his part to be ludicrous. He is, functionally, an observer for the events of this book. He has no agency, and whether he stays dead or not is, at this point, entirely out of his hands. And his death was certainly no grand sacrifice for the greater good, since Durkon is, quite frankly, a more valuable member of the Order than Belkar is.

[Dr.Zero]

the greater good, since Durkon is, quite frankly, a more valuable member of the Order than Belkar is.

Belkar is funnier!
Jokes aside, technically Durkon fought Malack

1. to avoid the risk of him dominating the whole order, but Roy.
2. because Malack was a frigging vampire, who Durkon felt the urge to fight anyway
3. because, well, there wasn't anyway any other option, once they were facing each other, but agreeing to retreat, letting the Linear Guild seize the Pyramid

And he accomplished to save not only Belkar's life, but that of the whole order (when Malack, to respect his last wish, didn't say he saw them in the Pyramid)

[alwaysbebatman]

Yeah, I'm with hroþila. I think it's a little more likely Durkon will return, but the fact that the Order needs him is NOT proof of it. "Take away what a character relies on and see how they do without" is Mr. Burlew's storytelling strategy. "They get it back" is not the only possible direction from there.

And if he does stay dead, his "death" at Malack's hands, as sad and heroic as that was, will not be his heroic end.

There are only two possibilities (that I can think of) that make any dramatic sense: Durkon will be instrumental in stopping Durkon* and saving the Dwarven people, and in the process will be freed from the soul trap he has been stuck in and will either return to the Order in some manner, OR go on permanently and irretrievably to his final reward in Valhalla.

[Knaight]

Character development is not necessarily about having a better character you can use subsequently, it can also be about telling the story of that development, which may well end up with that character dead as a doornail. It's pretty common, actually. Personally, I don't think Durkon will stay dead after this book, but I don't think "this will all be a waste otherwise!!!" is a compelling argument either, and I'm unimpressed by any arguments that go "Rich would never do this or that because he's a good writer and I get to decide what's good writing".

Character development in general can easily be about telling a story of that development that ends with the character dead. That doesn't mean that it works for this particular story, particularly given existing themes.

*shrugs*
I don't think the story stops being about the Order if they permanently lost a member, and lotsa main characters have died in world literature before ASoIaF.

That literature has fairly consistently had a different tone and story structure though, and is often building towards that in obvious ways. Gilgamesh dies in the Epic of Gilgamesh, which happens to have the constraints of mortality as a major theme throughout - and while the specifics of a theme often differ in works that have the deaths of major characters the theme is still generally there (at least when the writing is decent).

[Quartz]

It's worse than that: from the sound of it, she's a low-level fighter/cleric.

There's no doubting she's a low-level cleric, but her abilities as a fighter are as yet unknown.

[Goblin_Priest]

Yeah, I'm with hroþila. I think it's a little more likely Durkon will return, but the fact that the Order needs him is NOT proof of it. "Take away what a character relies on and see how they do without" is Mr. Burlew's storytelling strategy. "They get it back" is not the only possible direction from there.

And if he does stay dead, his "death" at Malack's hands, as sad and heroic as that was, will not be his heroic end.

There are only two possibilities (that I can think of) that make any dramatic sense: Durkon will be instrumental in stopping Durkon* and saving the Dwarven people, and in the process will be freed from the soul trap he has been stuck in and will either return to the Order in some manner, OR go on permanently and irretrievably to his final reward in Valhalla.

Durkon tricking Durkon* into destruction, possibly in a way that prevents resurrection, seems completely plausible to me.

[Manty5]

I'm more worried about what's going to happen to Durkon's mom. She doesn't deserve an ounce of what's going to be happening soon.

Even learning that her old high priest stole her boy is going to be devastating.

[martianmister]

Durkon tricking Durkon* into destruction, possibly in a way that prevents resurrection, seems completely plausible to me.

That would be a good conclusion.

[Ruck]

Yeah, I'm with hroþila. I think it's a little more likely Durkon will return, but the fact that the Order needs him is NOT proof of it. "Take away what a character relies on and see how they do without" is Mr. Burlew's storytelling strategy. "They get it back" is not the only possible direction from there.

Durkon is a character, not "something a character relies on."

Character development in general can easily be about telling a story of that development that ends with the character dead. That doesn't mean that it works for this particular story, particularly given existing themes.

Right, this. Sure, it's literally possible that Durkon could never come back, or that this all ends with the Snarl unmaking the world, or it turns out Redcloak was being Truman Show-ed the whole time, but I find those possibilities exceedingly unlikely, given the actual themes of this story and what the author himself has said is important about it.

[Kardwill]

Indeed. That strip dedicated to how the order needs Durkon, specifically, was a bit of a giveaway, in my opinion.

In my opinion, that particular strip is more about how Durkon can't be replaced by generic-cleric-Murkon-Lightninghammer. It means that Durkon was an essential part of the crew, not that they won't have to learn to live without their friend. So it's pretty Durkon-final-death-neutral.

But I think it's a clear signal that if Durkon stays dead, he won't have a replacement cleric like Minrah pop in and occupy his slot as party cleric. It would just... feel wrong.

(Doesn't mean that there won't be a Fullmetal Alchemist moment at the end, with secondary chars like Minrah, Bandana or O-Chul playing a critical assist in the final battle. The story is not about Roy's personal vendetta anymore, after all. But probably not as full core-cast members.)

Time will tell, and I'd say that the fact it can go both ways (and it will probably be decided soon) is pretty exciting :)

[KorvinStarmast]

In my opinion, that particular strip is more about how Durkon can't be replaced by generic-cleric-Murkon-Lightninghammer. It means that Durkon was an essential part of the crew, not that they won't have to learn to live without their friend. So it's pretty Durkon-final-death-neutral.

Roy stayed dead for most of a book. Some more chardev happens. (And we get the tear jerker moment with his little brother ...)
Then, through powerful magics, he is returned to the order.

Durkon stays undead for most of a book. His chardev includes a tried and true literary device -- fighting the inner demons, or in this case evil spirits -- in a peculiar-to-OoTS manner. Part of his inner test is does he retain his faith in Thor? He's LG and a cleric of Thor. Keeping his trust/faith in Thor seems to me to be a key piece of how all of this comes out in the end of his arc.
Then, through powerful magics, he will most likely return to the order.
This return to form would then complete the "character development arcs" in major form for all six members. (though Belkar needs to finish his). That leaves book 7 as wide open for whatever Rich needs to do to bring all of the loose ends into play and tie them together.

[alwaysbebatman]

Durkon is a character, not "something a character relies on."

Why not both?

(Because Durkon is definitely both.)

[Manty5]

Durkon stays undead for most of a book. His chardev includes a tried and true literary device -- fighting the inner demons, or in this case evil spirits -- in a peculiar-to-OoTS manner...

...would then complete the "character development arcs" in major form for all six members. (though Belkar needs to finish his).

Which is why I think Belkar's next for the undead treatment. I don't see any other way that we're plausibly dragging his background out of him, except perhaps if that one vamp that looks like a halfling gets saved.

My personal but highly unlikely theory is that Miko's going to be the controlling spirit when he gets vamped, and it's a really rough ride before they find salvation together.

[Keltest]

Which is why I think Belkar's next for the undead treatment. I don't see any other way that we're plausibly dragging his background out of him, except perhaps if that one vamp that looks like a halfling gets saved.

My personal but highly unlikely theory is that Miko's going to be the controlling spirit when he gets vamped, and it's a really rough ride before they find salvation together.

I seem to recall Rich saying he was very deliberately avoiding the backstories of the demihumans, and Belkar in particular, because he felt he, as a human, would be unable to write them well. Belkar in particular had the pitfall of either making him more sympathetic than desired, or too much of a villain.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I seem to recall Rich saying he was very deliberately avoiding the backstories of the demihumans, and Belkar in particular, because he felt he, as a human, would be unable to write them well.

[citation needed]

GW

[Keltest]

[citation needed]

GW

I was misremembering slightly. It was specifically different childhoods between the races that he didn't want to bring up, at least at the time. Presumably he has had a change of opinion since then.

And for the record, when somebody leads with "I seem to recall" or something similar, it is an expression of uncertainty designed to invite independent corroboration, not an indication that the following statement should be considered authoritative.

[Ruck]

Why not both?

(Because Durkon is definitely both.)

Well, for the purposes of this conversation, we're talking about whether or not Durkon comes back, right? In terms of demonstrating the character growth of the Order, I think he functions in that role. But since he is one of the six protagonists and a key member of the Order, I also think he will come back to be part of the team for the last book, and that his growth is just as important as anyone else's.

Which is why I think Belkar's next for the undead treatment. I don't see any other way that we're plausibly dragging his background out of him, except perhaps if that one vamp that looks like a halfling gets saved.

My personal but highly unlikely theory is that Miko's going to be the controlling spirit when he gets vamped, and it's a really rough ride before they find salvation together.

I'll bet all the money against Belkar becoming an undead. I doubt we even get backstory-- as Keltest was saying, I think Rich has written somewhere that writing too much backstory for Belkar would risk making his murderousness seem sympathetic.

[ti'esar]

What I'm personally really confused about, even with the "highly unlikely" disclaimer, is the suggestion that Miko would be Belkar's vampire spirit, which goes completely against everything we know about both Miko's alignment and how vampire spirits work.

[mouser9169]

What I'm personally really confused about, even with the "highly unlikely" disclaimer, is the suggestion that Miko would be Belkar's vampire spirit, which goes completely against everything we know about both Miko's alignment and how vampire spirits work.

Belkar becoming a vampire would be interesting solely to see the question "What is Belkar's Worst Day?" answered. Potentially, he could just be himself, evil bastard that he is.

Before this long story with Durkon I suspected Belkar might be vamped (or otherwise undeadified), but now? Too much been there, done that for me.

Possibility: Belkar could be drained, and we see a campground scene between New Belkar and Belkar Original wherein all of the recent character development comes out and Belkar resists being vamped and either dies or sticks around for a bit longer (personally, I see him dying at the last gate).

[martianmister]

I seem to recall Rich saying he was very deliberately avoiding the backstories of the demihumans, and Belkar in particular, because he felt he, as a human, would be unable to write them well. Belkar in particular had the pitfall of either making him more sympathetic than desired, or too much of a villain.

It's actually his response to the lack of LGBT characters in the strip.

[Keltest]

It's actually his response to the lack of LGBT characters in the strip.

That might also be the case, but I tracked down the quote I was thinking of.

[Snails]

I suspect Minrah's main contribution to the plot is that she knows Durkon's mother.

Something like that. The Order really does need a scout to make good time around the inside of a mountain, as Roy said. It would be natural enough for Minrah to have a tidbit or two about the locals, information that Durkon's out of date knowledge cannot provide.

[Aquillion]

Nope.

Like Hinjo and Celia before her, she will nicely fill out a hole in the party's balance while they get themselves back together. But the Order of the Stick has, will have, and will always have, the same six members it had back in #1.

Seven members.

Also, they're eight now. Nine if you count Bloodfeast.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Ten. You forgot His Holiness the Lord Banjo.

[SlashDash]

Why not? Do you think Rich would spend a book to develop his character and then just... drop him? Especially after that scene where everyone mentions how much the need Durkon, specifically?

To paraphrase the finale of the original Dallas, just because someone was needed to get people to where they are, doesn't mean they need him from now on.

For those unfamiliar (spoiler for a soap from decades ago)
The finale was about JR, the villain of the show basically thinking how he ruined everyone's life. An "angel" comes and shows him what life for everyone would have been without him - and it shows him that everyone were far worst actually. But then he says, okay I was needed to bring them so far, but now that they are better off - am I still needed?
(then presumably kills himself only to be completely removed via the sequels which said it wasn't for real)




Durkon was needed to get them to where they are now, it doesn't mean the same reasons are needed to propel them forward.
Belkar's self improvement quest, for instance, is the result of his guilt of what caused Durkon to die in the first place. If he comes back... Belkar's progress will slow down dramatically.




Also, Durkon already pretty much stated that he has a "plan" to get over the vampire, even though we don't know what it is. He'll find a way to get the vampire to screw things up and cause his demise -
But nothing says it has to happen in this book. I'm betting on the next book to be the one where it happens.

And let's face it - if any cleric is going to replace Durkon in the party, the most likely candidate is actually Redcloak.
If Roy breaks a piece treaty between Hinjo and Redcloak to allow Gobtopia to stay and keep the Saphire guard from making massive slaughtering of goblins for no reason, I can see Redcloak backing down from the world ending scheme (as that is what the dark one wants).

Redcloak has no real loyalty to Xykon and those two will turn on each other sooner or later. So while Redcloak will never be "good", he can still help them save the day - and he sure as heck powerful enough to stand in that fight (and most likely die by you know who...).

[Quartz]

There's no doubting she's a low-level cleric, but her abilities as a fighter are as yet unknown.

Just to nitpick myself there are alternatives involving Prestige Classes like Divine Crusader.

[Goblin_Priest]

She didn't seem overwhelmingly potent as a martial either. Wondering if she even inflicted any damage at all on that vampire.

[D.One]

She didn't seem overwhelmingly potent as a martial either. Wondering if she even inflicted any damage at all on that vampire.

As far as we've seem, "BONK!" seems to mean "Stopped by the Damage Reduction".

[Goblin_Priest]

As far as we've seem, "BONK!" seems to mean "Stopped by the Damage Reduction".

Indeed, that was the impression I was getting.