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  1. - Top - End - #751
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    Default Re: Stuff I just don't understand, post here yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by Razade View Post
    Then get one. If your replies are "I'm using outmoded technology for my entertainment, where's my bubble!!!" then maybe you need to look elsewhere.
    Inexpensive didn't necessarily equate to outmoded. An antenna gets him more TV channels than I get, for instance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    It would be nice to just change the title of this thread to be "stuff about Jedi"

  2. - Top - End - #752
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razade View Post
    .....where's my bubble!!!" then maybe you need to look elsewhere.

    So basically to get in on this "bubble" action you have to be "with it" enough to know how, and you have to spend extra money to do it, so I suspect that mostly means young people with means.

    Wow, so the young and rich *cough*, excuse me "middle class", are isolated from most people.

    News at eleven, I think that's called "college".

    As far as a "common culture", most of my co-workers discuss spectator sports that I don't pay attention to (baseball, basketball, football), new movies that I don't watch (mostly about superheroes), and the latest grisly crimes that local news is broadcasting, so there is a "common culture".

    But, since they know that I read about it, when they have a question about national news that doesn't involve lost hikers they usually ask me.
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  3. - Top - End - #753
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    As far as a "common culture", most of my co-workers discuss spectator sports that I don't pay attention to (baseball, basketball, football), new movies that I don't watch (mostly about superheroes), and the latest grisly crimes that local news is broadcasting, so there is a "common culture".
    Well, I'd like to point out that it happens even here. But the World Cup thread is speaking a strange language that seems like a complicated way to say 'The ball moved'. The sports are infringing upon our geek space.

    Does no one use Youtube or similar services to find...Different music? I mean, I've been curious and poking around and found out that I really like stuff from the 70's which I wouldn't have been able to check out so easily.
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  4. - Top - End - #754
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    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    ...Does no one use Youtube or similar services to find...Different music? I mean, I've been curious and poking around and found out that I really like stuff from the 70's which I wouldn't have been able to check out so easily.

    I have and it's AWESOME!

    Spoiler: I found this, which I don't hear on the radio
    Show

  5. - Top - End - #755
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    So basically to get in on this "bubble" action you have to be "with it" enough to know how, and you have to spend extra money to do it, so I suspect that mostly means young people with means.
    I don't think you quite understand what "bubble" means in this context. If you're channel surfing, then theoretically you're forced to at least momentarily expose yourself to other views more than someone who can afford to have nothing but Infowars piped to his sensory deprivation chamber 24/7. In practice, if you're only paying attention long enough to think about how much you hate what's on before moving on a channel that you like, then you're effectively in your own bubble.

    Wow, so the young and rich *cough*, excuse me "middle class", are isolated from most people.
    No, we're all pretty isolated from each other in many respects. Certain people just like to delude themselves (or alternatively, just cynically and deliberately lie) and say that group X is a small minority in a bubble, while the vast majority are all on the same page, in order to delegitimize anything that group X has to say. It's been done in some form to the very rich, the very educated, the very poor, minority populations, and pretty much any small group that another small, bit marginally louder and more powerful group wanted to screw over. Heck, if we had social media in the 1930's, there would be folks on Twitter telling everyone to ignore the complaints of the elites in their Jewish bubble because they're disconnected from how great things are for the average "real" German.

    I vaguely remember some old Media threads here where some guys were talking about how "unrealistic" media was because even seeing a few token non-whites in the background was completely alien to their own experiences and those of pretty much every single person they know. That's a bubble, and a fairly small one at that--in fact, probably even smaller than the "rich college" bubble you're complaining about. Nearly 40 percentage of working age Americans have at least an associates degree. In contrast, less than 20% of Americans live in rural areas. Now, that figure omits a few, mostly smaller urban areas that are almost exclusively white. However, it also inappropriately counts a substantial number of urban areas that are either heavily mixed or non-white majority, so it's probably a wash.

    News at eleven, I think that's called "college".
    For me, college (and graduate schools) involved more frequent and meaningful interaction with people from less advantaged backgrounds than I generally have before or after. Of course, a decent part of this is that during school, I counted the guys who came from poorer backgrounds and came to school on financial aid as coming from a very different background as me, and after school, once those same guys started working in finance and medicine I really couldn't call them "less advantaged" anymore. In terms of meeting new people, however, in college we were thrown into houses and classes with no real regard to where you came from. Granted, if I had done more esoteric and impractical courses such as Folklore and Mythology, there might have been a greater bias towards people who didn't have to worry about money, but in general there wasn't the same tendency towards self-segregation there was where I grew up, in more rural/suburban areas.

    I went to a rough inner city school, but it was a magnet program where we were physically and socially isolated from the actual rough inner city students. When I went out with friends, we went to the mall and restaurants and bowling alleys in the "nicer" neighborhoods near where we lived, not the ones further out in the lower class areas. In contrast, when I started working, I lived in more expensive neighborhoods closer to work and to coworkers, who were also all more affluent professionals. Moving to a new city for the first time, my social life pretty much grew around coworkers and old classmates, and when they recommended places to visit and possibly meet new people, there was certainly a bias towards places more affluent people would be. Whereas in college I might randomly turn out that part of my study group spent her high school years homeless (true story) or that a lot of the guys I trained with were the first in their families to even go to college (also not hypothetical), afterwards you really have to make a deliberate effort if you want to meet folks from a very different background. Even if you have an interest that should in theory cut across socioeconomic lines, in practice there's a lot of segregation. When I asked my friends if anyone knew a good MMA gym, they all pretty much recommended a handful of fairly expensive places, mostly downtown, mostly catering to wealthier professionals. I never even heard about other, more working class gyms outside the city until I made a deliberate effort to do so online, and even then, there wasn't a strong reason for me to do so. They were cheaper, but they were also a bit of a commute. In terms of quality, both the high price and low price gyms included a few that boasted students with solid amateur fight records. When I was growing up, MMA wasn't really popular yet and it wasn't too densely populated, so there were only two or three gyms with great reputations, and the second closest one was nearly an hour away from the closest one, so there was a wide range of poorer and richer folks all pushed together by a common interest, but that's really not the case if you have marginally popular interests in a reasonably populated place.

    As far as a "common culture", most of my co-workers discuss spectator sports that I don't pay attention to (baseball, basketball, football), new movies that I don't watch (mostly about superheroes), and the latest grisly crimes that local news is broadcasting, so there is a "common culture".
    See, you don't need money and a fancy college education after all. You built yourself a nice bubble all on your own.

  6. - Top - End - #756
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    Default Re: Stuff I just don't understand, post here yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    Even when I turn on PBS it's seldom Ask this Old House
    That (along with most of the cooking and craft shows) was moved to the Create sub-channel when the digital switch went through. This is available in 79% of the US, so you would have to be very unlucky not to have access to it.

  7. - Top - End - #757
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xyril View Post
    I don't think you quite understand what "bubble" means in this context[...][a bunch of completely valid points][....]

    That's all a fair cop Xyril, as I do tend to let my bitterness, envy, and general crankiness go to far.

    [...]See, you don't need money and a fancy college education after all. You built yourself a nice bubble all on your own.

    Yeah, but it's a lot of work, and it's still far too porous for my tastes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnoman View Post
    That (along with most of the cooking and craft shows) was moved to the Create sub-channel when the digital switch went through. This is available in 79% of the US, so you would have to be very unlucky not to have access to it.

    Sadly, the nearest PBS stations (in San Francisco and San Mateo) don't broadcast that sub channel, and the signal from thr station in Cotati stopped reaching our house a year and a half ago (and even then, much fiddling with the antenna was required).

    We tried to get a better antenna, but it only was effective if someone was actively holding it, plus in that position most of the other stations didn't work, so no Create for me.
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  8. - Top - End - #758
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    We tried to get a better antenna, but it only was effective if someone was actively holding it, plus in that position most of the other stations didn't work, so no Create for me.
    Don't you have children? Just get one of them to hold it.
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  9. - Top - End - #759
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    Default Re: Stuff I just don't understand, post here yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    That's all a fair cop Xyril, as I do tend to let my bitterness, envy, and general crankiness go to far.
    I disagree. Then again, I also have a lot of general crankiness, so maybe I just commiserate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    It would be nice to just change the title of this thread to be "stuff about Jedi"

  10. - Top - End - #760
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    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    Don't you have children? Just get one of them to hold it.

    Sadly, the two years (and one month) old doesn't have the reach yet, and my wife said the 13 years old had more important things to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I disagree. Then again, I also have a lot of general crankiness, so maybe I just commiserate.

    Hence the Forum.

    That's what it for right?

    Okay, maybe not if you go to the really early threads, but they were so friendly to each othet that it seems kinda boring.

  11. - Top - End - #761
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    Sadly, the two years (and one month) old doesn't have the reach yet, and my wife said the 13 years old had more important things to do.
    See, this is why you train them young and change the wifi password. I am a good parent.
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  12. - Top - End - #762
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    Default Re: Stuff I just don't understand, post here yours.

    'I'm a billionaire - I can live whenever [in time] I want!'
    [Fry, Futurama, 'A Fishful of Dollars']

    An excellent example of what is known to all of us put not often pointed out: the more money we have, the more we can ignore reality. What technology has done has reduced the cost of doing this - to the level that in many advanced nations the majority can filter quite zealously their 'reality' to quite odd ends if they'd so wish. I am no way rich - not even average - but it would be quite easy to 'bubble' myself to only listening to 90s music, watching only The Joy of Painting and only reading anime graphics.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Blobby View Post
    .....the more money we have, the more we can ignore reality. What technology has done has reduced the cost of doing this - to the level that in many advanced nations the majority can filter quite zealously their 'reality' to quite odd ends if they'd so wish....

    That actually explains so much....

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    That's all a fair cop Xyril, as I do tend to let my bitterness, envy, and general crankiness go to far.
    That's completely understandable. Just keep in mind, we all have our bubbles, and the more we act like we're the exception, and that there's something wrong with everyone else for being "cut off from most people," the more we tend to do or say things that give everyone else valid reasons for being generally cranky.

    Sadly, the nearest PBS stations (in San Francisco and San Mateo) don't broadcast that sub channel, and the signal from thr station in Cotati stopped reaching our house a year and a half ago (and even then, much fiddling with the antenna was required).
    That's pretty surprising to me. Whenever I'm in the Bay area, I feel like I'm surrounded by people who brag about how much time and effort they spending Doing It Yourself instead of paying a professional to do it better and faster. The only thing I can think of is that maybe these people are all on HGTV/Food Network/etc. and there isn't the demand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knaight View Post
    My point is that it hasn't become narrower, and the idea that it is is based on a ludicrously romanticized view of the past. I'd be extremely surprised if any of the people pushing the idea of these newfound bubbles had ever lived in a small town - or for that matter lived internationally, and thus been able to get pushed outside the geographical bubble.
    I understand your point, I just don't agree.

    I appreciate that there have always been factors that narrow our perspective, so I don't have a romantic idea of what the past might have been like. It's just that all those factors still exist, and there are additional factors that narrow our perspective. It is much easier now to be selective about the news we read, the music we hear, and the people we interact with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    I understand your point, I just don't agree.

    I appreciate that there have always been factors that narrow our perspective, so I don't have a romantic idea of what the past might have been like. It's just that all those factors still exist, and there are additional factors that narrow our perspective. It is much easier now to be selective about the news we read, the music we hear, and the people we interact with.
    There are also additional factors that broaden them. "Have always been" is very broad, which makes it easier to use better examples. Developing the train seriously damaged geographical bubbles. So did the telegraph, telephone, car, so on and so forth. The internet fits better in this pattern than the bubble generation pattern.
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  17. - Top - End - #767
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knaight View Post
    There are also additional factors that broaden them. "Have always been" is very broad, which makes it easier to use better examples. Developing the train seriously damaged geographical bubbles. So did the telegraph, telephone, car, so on and so forth. The internet fits better in this pattern than the bubble generation pattern.
    You say that the internet broadens the bubble in which people live, but I think it narrows it. I think most people don't use the internet to find media and people who challenge their pre-conceptions (which would broaden their perspective), but they use the internet to find media and people who agree with their pre-conceptions (narrowing their perspective).

    The train (or cars etc) were different, because there was no railway station for people who like X. By taking the train it is not easy to find people or newspapers which echo your own views. On the internet it is very easy.

    Personally, I have no doubt that people have a narrower perspective now than they did before the internet became widespread.
    Last edited by Liquor Box; 2018-07-13 at 05:51 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xyril View Post
    That's pretty surprising to me. Whenever I'm in the Bay area, I feel like I'm surrounded by people who brag about how much time and effort they spending Doing It Yourself instead of paying a professional to do it better and faster. The only thing I can think of is that maybe these people are all on HGTV/Food Network/etc. and there isn't the demand.
    The real DIY snobs probably don't watch such pedestrian trash.

    Joking aside, there are a lot of ways to figure out this stuff other than the TV in these parts. Lots of people learn it from others, attend classes or workshops as social events, or find various websites and blogs on it.
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  19. - Top - End - #769
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    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    The real DIY snobs probably don't watch such pedestrian trash.

    Joking aside, there are a lot of ways to figure out this stuff other than the TV in these parts. Lots of people learn it from others, attend classes or workshops as social events, or find various websites and blogs on it.
    For a while YouTube was the big place to go for DIY stuff. I think it probably still is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMFV View Post
    For a while YouTube was the big place to go for DIY stuff. I think it probably still is.
    Yeah, that makes a lot of sense...Since Youtube has a pause feature and be easily watched on a phone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    So basically to get in on this "bubble" action you have to be "with it" enough to know how, and you have to spend extra money to do it, so I suspect that mostly means young people with means.
    I work with mostly older people in a minimum wage job. All of them have the things I've mentioned. I am actually more well off than most of the people I work with (and younger. Certainly younger than you) and I have...mostly none of them. I do have Amazon Prime but that's just because free shipping and faster shipping. Which is a bonus. I don't even use it for the other stuff but I could if I cared. Which I don't.

    You're paying a penny for cable I'd suspect, and internet, or your phone. Which you could cut out if you took my other suggestion in cutting out television. Other platforms are way cheaper than your cable bill so I don't see where you're coming in with this "Only rich people can afford Netflix!!!" attitude. It's..absurd.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    Wow, so the young and rich *cough*, excuse me "middle class", are isolated from most people.
    I'll take Non-Sequiters for 2,000 Alex. Oh, it's the Daily Double? Awesome.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    News at eleven, I think that's called "college".
    Yeah, the filthy intellectuals!!


    I don't honestly care what you do. You asked, even if mostly joking, and you got an answer. To sneer at new age technology as a playground for the rich, entitled, youngsters puts you in a whole different bubble. The "Get off my lawn" type bubble. Next you'll be ranting about how the price of gas has gone through the roof, opining that these new fangled "green energy" initiatives are a plot by the Kaiser and life was better when one person in a family unit worked and the other stayed home and did the domestic stuff.
    Last edited by Razade; 2018-07-13 at 08:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    So basically to get in on this "bubble" action you have to be "with it" enough to know how, and you have to spend extra money to do it, so I suspect that mostly means young people with means.
    I don't know man, I think everybody inherently wants to construct a "bubble" around themselves. And it doesn't take money to really be able to do that. All it takes is the ability to surround yourself with similarly minded people. And when that doesn't work the ability to isolate yourself from others. Which given our modern society most people are able to do relatively easily.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    Wow, so the young and rich *cough*, excuse me "middle class", are isolated from most people.
    Not really more so than any other group. I mean I suspect that they are the group that you have to interact with the most given your profession that is not your group. And given your location I imagine that the working middle class is a little more disparate and separated out than they would be someplace like in Pennsylvania where there is a strong working union presence.

    Also I'm not sure I'd class middle class college grads as "rich" when you're a skilled plumber, I'd bet you 50 bucks you make more than most college grads for a long time, or at least you should be. I mean that's like thirty to forty dollars an hour, unless your union has really screwed up. (I couldn't find indoor plumbers on the prevailing wage docs for Cali, but I took a gander at how my rates would compare. I'd get like a 20% raise working there. And not even in the Bay Area.)

    I think it's easy for working class people to forget how people in the skilled trade businesses are paid. I remember when we were poking fun at some young bridge inspectors for "all that inspector money", we later found out they made something like 19 an hour, which is less than even me, a first year apprentice in my union makes. Yeah the work is more physically demanding, but it doesn't pay badly. Definitely not for a card carrying Union Plumber/Pipe-Fitter.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    News at eleven, I think that's called "college".
    College has it's own bubble, on that is often worse than many other bubbles, at least in my opinion. But you are also in a bubble.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    As far as a "common culture", most of my co-workers discuss spectator sports that I don't pay attention to (baseball, basketball, football), new movies that I don't watch (mostly about superheroes), and the latest grisly crimes that local news is broadcasting, so there is a "common culture".
    This is, I suspect, your problem. As you've stated before, you don't like your lot in life. You don't like the bubble you're in. You'd rather spend time with the intellectuals making fun of "sportsball" than the people actually following the sports. And that's going to make you bitter. Why don't you try stepping out of your self-made bubble, and maybe following sports. I mean you watch the highlights and you have enough to BS your way through a conversation.

    Or maybe watch the Superhero movies, you're into D&D enough that you should be able to shut off and enjoy them, then you can have something to talk about, and you won't need to be so bitter. you don't have to do that, but it's just my suggestion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Razade View Post
    I don't honestly care what you do. You asked, even if mostly joking, and you got an answer. To sneer at new age technology as a playground for the rich, entitled, youngsters puts you in a whole different bubble. The "Get off my lawn" type bubble. Next you'll be ranting about how the price of gas has gone through the roof, opining that these new fangled "green energy" initiatives are a plot by the Kaiser and life was better when one person in a family unit worked and the other stayed home and did the domestic stuff.
    I don't know. I've worked in green energy, and a lot of it is basically tailored to leech off government initiatives until they run out and the company goes abruptly bankrupt throwing workers who had worked for years there out on the streets with ZERO warning. I was a temp there. But there were people who were planning careers there who were out on the streets with no warning, because the company wasn't able to do the things they claimed. Green energy has a lot of Kaiserplotting to it, as somebody who worked in that field.
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    Default Re: Stuff I just don't understand, post here yours.

    As in my resonse to Xyril, that's all a fair cop*Xyril, as I do tend to let my bitterness, envy, and general crankiness go too far which you have kindly reminded me AMFV & Razade.

    Thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Razade View Post
    ...You're paying a penny for cable I'd suspect, and internet, or your phone. Which you could cut out if you took my other suggestion in cutting out television. Other platforms are way cheaper than your cable bill...

    I've never paid for and I don't have cable, but I did breakdown and get a cell phone around 2003 after the transmission of my car broke down and I didn't find a working pay phone until after searching for two hours, and after more than a decade of dial-up, I got internet service about 2010 (what a difference!), but your quite right, phone and internet seen costly.

    ....intellectuals!!...

    We've got one college grad (the apprentice) on our crew at work, and he seems a good guy, but the majority of grads I encounter our the DA's on the third floor, and the Public Defenders on 7th Street, and yeah they definitely seem a different "caste" than most people, but mostly my resentment of colleges is that most people aren't allowed access to them, and instead of educating the general public colleges mostly seem to be about educating an elite that can afford to attend, or is willing and able to incur the debt, while also spending fortunes on administrators and football coaches.

    ....Next you'll be ranting about how the price of gas has gone through the roof....

    Gas?

    Relative to everthing else gasoline still seems cheap to mr, mostly I rant about the prices of housing and hospital visits instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by AMFV View Post
    ...I don't know man, I think everybody inherently wants to construct a "bubble" around themselves....

    My initial point on the subject was that I'm dubious about how easy and widespread it is to insulate yourself in a "bubble", most everyone I know with a job sees dozens or more passed out or (looking) dead on the sidewalks, or residing in the tents along the highways when they commute to and from work, and we'd all like to isolate ourselves from that but don't know how, so what "bubble"?, but my crankiness got in the way.

    ...I'd bet you 50 bucks you make more than most college grads for a long time, or at least you should be...

    I'm paid more than my brother who's a college grad, but he didn't get his diploma until he was in his 30's, and he lives in Maryland, near his in-laws that largely paid for his education.

    ...This is, I suspect, your problem. As you've stated before, you don't like your lot in life. You don't like the bubble you're in. You'd rather spend time with the intellectuals making fun of "sportsball" than the people actually following the sports....

    While I greatly envy the time collegians had reading, and more importantly being able to get answers to their questions about what they're reading (my wife went to college and I avidly read the textbooks she kept), when I overhear grads talk I don't think I'd fit in with them even if I had the privilege of a college education (in particular I remember overhearing last months a bunch of the DA interns mocking the one of their crew who "didn't go to an Ivy", and I'm still bitter about how when I was "promoted to the higher track" in high school my new classmates questioned me and declared that "you don't really live here" because I was ignorant of a ski shop in town, having never skied). I do have regular conversations with one college grad, though my wife whom I've known since '91 and been with since '92, but this year she's started asking me "Can you look less working class when you come home?".

    ....And that's going to make you bitter. Why don't you try stepping out of your self-made bubble, and maybe following sports. I mean you watch the highlights and you have enough to BS your way through a conversation....

    At this point the guys on my crew are well aware of and amused by my ignorance of sports, but they don't hassle me about it and actually seem to almost respect it a bit, especially after I admitted that I have watched some women's beach volleyball games.

    ...Or maybe watch the Superhero movies, you're into D&D enough that you should be able to shut off and enjoy them, then you can have something to talk about, and you won't need to be so bitter. you don't have to do that, but it's just my suggestion....

    It's a good suggestion, I have watched the '78 Superman, the '89 Barman, the 2002 and 2004 Spider-Man movies, which I saw in the theatre and thought were good, and more recently with my son I watched DVD's of an X-Men movie that had a scene in a death camp were a little boy being seperate from his mother bends steel bars with his mind, and I found that memorable, but not the rest of the movie. Unfortunately the two Iron Man movies and the Avengers movie that I watched with my son seemed really dull to me, and my son liked Cars, Cars 2 (hearing my son imitate Michael Cain afterwards was very amusing), Planes, and Speed Racer more.

    Our son is thirteen now, but he's so behind in his schoolwork that my wife doesn't bring home DVD's from the library home for him anymore, and what's on the screen is for our two-year-old instead.

  24. - Top - End - #774
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    We've got one college grad (the apprentice) on our crew at work, and he seems a good guy, but the majority of grads I encounter our the DA's on the third floor, and the Public Defenders on 7th Street, and yeah they definitely seem a different "caste" than most people, but mostly my resentment of colleges is that most people aren't allowed access to them, and instead of educating the general public colleges mostly seem to be about educating an elite that can afford to attend, or is willing and able to incur the debt, while also spending fortunes on administrators and football coaches.
    That's not just college though - that's also law school, and then becoming an actual lawyer. They're not much more representative of college grads than they are the general population.

    As for college funding you'll get pretty broad agreement on that from basically everyone at those colleges (especially given that "able" to incur the debt is really easy. Bankruptcy proof debt? Banks hand that out nice and easy). The reasons behind this can get into politics really easily, but suffice to say that more than a few of them eventually trace back to people hostile to colleges deliberately trying to destroy the institution.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    We've got one college grad (the apprentice) on our crew at work, and he seems a good guy, but the majority of grads I encounter our the DA's on the third floor, and the Public Defenders on 7th Street, and yeah they definitely seem a different "caste" than most people,
    Attorneys and law school grads in general tend to share certain traits that aren't necessarily reflective of the college educated as a whole. Even within college, I noticed that the folks who considered themselves prelaw (my school didn't offer that as a formal program, but a lot of students made their intent clear) tended towards a certain types, just like the creative arts sorts, the premeds, the engineers, etc. To extrapolate the nature of college grads in general based on a sample size that includes nothing but lawyers is foolish. To do so when the one non-attorney college grad in your sample completely contradicts your conclusions is beyond foolish, it borders on deliberate self-deception.

    Your argument is basically, "I know that all dogs are big and friendly, because I know a ton of labs and retrievers living in my neighborhood. Also, a tiny chihuahua, but obviously he's an exception to the general rule."

    but mostly my resentment of colleges is that most people aren't allowed access to them, and instead of educating the general public colleges mostly seem to be about educating an elite that can afford to attend, or is willing and able to incur the debt, while also spending fortunes on administrators and football coaches.
    Citation needed.

    First, in-state tuition at most public universities is substantially lower than out-of-state and international tuition. If you're from overseas or a different state, yeah, you'll be paying pretty much the same to attend UC Berkeley as you would to attend an elite private university. If you're a California resident, you'll be paying roughly 1/3 in tuition. Now, $10-15k a year isn't nothing, but it's also nothing going to accrue the "hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt" that you hear people complaining about unless you do something very wrong.

    Second, if you're a decent student, you have affordable options. Granted, sometimes circumstances make it harder to achieve in school, and sometimes these choices aren't fair, but they exist. If you could get admitted to most or all of the top private universities in the U.S., I can guarantee you that somebody else in the top 50 will be offering you substantial academic scholarships--and this is before even considering need-based grants. When I graduated from high school, only two or three people got into top twenty universities, but at least twenty or so were offered full scholarships to our top state schools, and at least one girl I know took that offer, applied for and received full (enough for tuition, dorms, meal plans, and a few thousand extra for books and miscellaneous expenses) non-repayable (work study and grants) financial aid, AND she got to keep the cash value of the academic scholarship (which was between $15k or $20k a year, IIRC.)

    Even if you're not "elite" in the academic sense (making C-B range averages, not failing anything without a good reason), you can probably still get into a community college. With luck, there's a good local one, and your parents can give you a place to stay even if they can't afford to otherwise support you. Hours are flexible: Find that courseload sweet spot where you can work enough to pay for tuition and support yourself, but not so much that you can't do well in the courses you take. If you work hard and do things right, not only do you reduce the number of courses you would otherwise take at a full college, you get a second chance to impress in a way that you didn't in high school. This means getting into better schools, but more importantly, getting more chances at funding and financial aid.

    The majority of folks complaining about six figure debt didn't make the best choices to begin with. There are certainly folks who did everything right but still got screwed (graduates around 2008 in particular), but they certainly aren't the majority of the ones complaining the most. If you couldn't get into an affordable state university and didn't want to start off at a community college, then it's stupid to pay $30k a year to attend a for-profit quasi-college. If you absolutely have to be a Gator but grew up in New York, it's absolutely your right to pass up higher ranked, cheaper (thanks to in-state tuition) options closer your home, but you don't get to whine about the broken public university system when it was your choice to pick a more expensive option. Same goes for the people who borrow extra for expenses so that they don't have to work at all during school. And for the love of God, if you know you're going into debt, have realistic expectations for what happens next.

    Also, I'm not a big fan of how much money and attention goes into sports. To be fair, well-known sports programs also bring in large amounts of money--something which still baffles me a little bit--but the analysis of whether this is worthwhile inconclusive in terms of quantitative metrics and pretty subjective in general. However, sports scholarships do give a lot of people opportunities that they wouldn't otherwise have. Some of them waste that opportunity thinking they'll be one of the lucky few who turn pro, but I know a lot of guys who didn't.

    My initial point on the subject was that I'm dubious about how easy and widespread it is to insulate yourself in a "bubble", most everyone I know with a job sees dozens or more passed out or (looking) dead on the sidewalks, or residing in the tents along the highways when they commute to and from work, and we'd all like to isolate ourselves from that but don't know how, so what "bubble"?,
    Do you talk to any of those folks? Do you listen to their views on the world, to the extent that you're giving them a good faith opportunity to impact your own views on the world? Are you confronted with the realities of their daily lives, beyond "Ugh, I wish I were rich enough that I didn't have to see those unwashed masses?" No? Then congrats, you have a bubble.

    When people talk about bubbles, they don't generally mean that you literally never interact with other kinds of people in even the briefest, and most superficial way. Even the wealthiest people walk or drive past the homeless, eat out and see servers making minimum wage. That doesn't mean they're letting them into the bubble in a meaningful way.

    While I greatly envy the time collegians had reading, and more importantly being able to get answers to their questions about what they're reading (my wife went to college and I avidly read the textbooks she kept), when I overhear grads talk I don't think I'd fit in with them even if I had the privilege of a college education (in particular I remember overhearing last months a bunch of the DA interns mocking the one of their crew who "didn't go to an Ivy" and I'm still bitter about how when I was "promoted to the higher track" in high school my new classmates questioned me and declared that "you don't really live here" because I was ignorant of a ski shop in town, having never skied).
    This might come off in text as a condescending rhetorical question, but it's sincere: Do you have a lot of male friends? I ask because mid-sized and large groups of male friends tend to bond with each other by busting each others balls about things in a way that--to outsiders--might seem overly judgmental. We told tons of dumb blonde and dumb Polish jokes to the blonde Pole in our group--by pretty much any measure, he was actually the smartest of all of us. While everyone came from a poor to middle-class background, we had one guy whose dad regularly made the Forbes lists, so we'd give him crap for being a trust fund baby even though his parents didn't seem to give him an exorbitant amount of money to play with (or if he did, he never flaunted it.)

    Maybe the people you overheard are truly biased, judgmental people, or maybe they're just friends being jerks to each other in the way that only friends can be. It's hard to tell as an outsider--even harder when your judgment might already be clouded by resentment and preconceived notions. Also, it probably doesn't change whether or not you fit in, but it does mean that the reason you don't fit in isn't about class or college, but simply because the way you think friends should interact isn't the way they do.

  26. - Top - End - #776
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xyril View Post
    This might come off in text as a condescending rhetorical question, but it's sincere: Do you have a lot of male friends?
    I seem to remember 2D8HP having previously said (more than once) that he has family and colleagues, but not friends - and that this is to an extent a deliberate choice because he doesn't think adults should allow friendships to impinge on family and work commitments, or something to that effect.
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  27. - Top - End - #777
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    My initial point on the subject was that I'm dubious about how easy and widespread it is to insulate yourself in a "bubble", most everyone I know with a job sees dozens or more passed out or (looking) dead on the sidewalks, or residing in the tents along the highways when they commute to and from work, and we'd all like to isolate ourselves from that but don't know how, so what "bubble"?, but my crankiness got in the way.
    The bubble isn't in denying that bad things exist. That would be very challenging for even the most absurdly rich people on earth to do past a very young age. The bubble is having a series of readymade explanations for the bad things that happen that tend to explain them without going into the nuance and give you a ready satisfying explanation. If you can blame the homeless on drug usage, laziness, or mental illness that transforms how you look at them. Alternatively if you blame them on corporate greed, systemic inequality, and other similar that also is a bubble. Because the real world isn't solvable with a single poor explanation.

    That's what the bubble is about, it's about having a frame of reference that ignores a lot of factors to make you feel better. That's how you can have "get off my lawn" and "technology is bad" bubbles, those don't involve ignoring or pretending that technology or societal change doesn't exist or doesn't happen. It involves looking at the world in a way that it's bad and that you are good for avoiding those changes (which is sometimes even the truth, but not always).

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    I'm paid more than my brother who's a college grad, but he didn't get his diploma until he was in his 30's, and he lives in Maryland, near his in-laws that largely paid for his education.
    That's not entirely unusual. I make as much or more than my sister who has a Masters, and I don't. I mean I have to work a lot harder than she does physically, but I make more money.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    While I greatly envy the time collegians had reading, and more importantly being able to get answers to their questions about what they're reading (my wife went to college and I avidly read the textbooks she kept), when I overhear grads talk I don't think I'd fit in with them even if I had the privilege of a college education (in particular I remember overhearing last months a bunch of the DA interns mocking the one of their crew who "didn't go to an Ivy", and I'm still bitter about how when I was "promoted to the higher track" in high school my new classmates questioned me and declared that "you don't really live here" because I was ignorant of a ski shop in town, having never skied). I do have regular conversations with one college grad, though my wife whom I've known since '91 and been with since '92, but this year she's started asking me "Can you look less working class when you come home?".
    You're lucky that it's taken her almost 30 years to ask you to shower right when you get home. I have to take my shoes off in my truck and then shower as soon as I get home. Some days I have to strip in the vestibule.

    I don't know. Lawyer folks (from what I can tell) tend to place a lot more emphasis on which school you went to than does almost any other profession.
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  28. - Top - End - #778
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMFV View Post

    I don't know. Lawyer folks (from what I can tell) tend to place a lot more emphasis on which school you went to than does almost any other profession.
    It also may be a factor of the US, where there can be a ridiculous (in my opinion) variance in quality of your degree. My view comes from an Engineering degree background, so there could be faculty specific issues.

    In Canada for Engineering, our universities are close enough in terms of quality of education that which one you go to is more of an economics choice than anything else. Where American Engineering graduates write two sets of exams to get their professional designation after their undetgraduate courses, Canadian Engineers just need your 4 years of experience within Canada to qualify.

    I believe the top Engineering university programs in North America are in the US. But the Canadian average for writing those tests to allow them to practise south of the border was around 85% compared to 60% for those from American institutions.

  29. - Top - End - #779
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    So much to respond to, yet I'm so lazy!

    So a partial response:

    Quote Originally Posted by Xyril View Post
    ....Your argument is basically, "I know that all dogs are big and friendly, because I know a ton of labs and retrievers living in my neighborhood. Also, a tiny chihuahua, but obviously he's an exception to the general rule."

    Hence my caveats.

    ...When I graduated from high school, only two or three people got into top twenty universities, but at least twenty or so were offered full scholarships to our top state schools, and...

    Of my friends and classmates in the 1980's, those who lived in the hills went on to go to the University, just like there parents, those of us who lived in the flats did not, except for my first DM who was an exceptionally good student, and had an uncle who was a professor.

    From what I've read who has the privilege of getting a diploma now correlates even more with parental income than in the 1980's, the big barrier is living expenses while your going to school, though I'm sure there's individual succeed stories that defy the odds, hooray for them.

    Maybe the people you overheard are truly biased, judgmental people, or maybe they're just friends being jerks to each other in the way that only friends can be. It's hard to tell as an outsider--even harder when your judgment might already be clouded by resentment and preconceived notions. Also, it probably doesn't change whether or not you fit in, but it does mean that the reason you don't fit in isn't about class or college, but simply because the way you think friends should interact isn't the way they do.

    The DA interns are mostly women not men, and the one they were mocking for not being "from an Ivy" wasn't present.

    But I really don't spend enough time amongst grads (besides my wife who has a bachelors diplms and attended but didn't graduate law school) to confirm my suspicions.

    As for experiencing "ball busting", my crew at work does that many times a day, though it's more common among the younger guys at work whom I no longer am numbered as after the retirements and new hires these past three years I'm now one of the "senior guys".

    Quote Originally Posted by Aedilred View Post
    I seem to remember 2D8HP having previously said (more than once) that he has family and colleagues, but not friends - and that this is to an extent a deliberate choice because he doesn't think adults should allow friendships to impinge on family and work commitments, or something to that effect.

    Oh probably.

    I do recall a particular psychopathic co-worker who inspired such thoughts, and I do tend to feel that one should prioritize your kids.

    As to should?

    To keep a job that can support a family and to have time for your kids (my two year old is leaning next to me as I write this) makes it extremely difficult to have much time for anything else and if I was King of California I"d want to make it otherwise, I'd also have everyone who wants one get a college education starting at the age of 15 or 16, and maybe at 40 as well, and many other wishes of things if I were King, but that may be too close to breaking Forum rules to go into detail.

    Quote Originally Posted by AMFV View Post
    The bubble isn't in denying that bad things exist. That would be very challenging for even the most absurdly rich people on earth to do past a very young age. The bubble is having a series of readymade explanations for the bad things that happen that tend to explain them without going into the nuance and give you a ready satisfying explanation....

    That seems apt.

    You're lucky that it's taken her almost 30 years to ask you to shower right when you get home. I have to take my shoes off in my truck and then shower as soon as I get home. Some days I have to strip in the vestibule.

    Oh, I've been putting my boots and overalls in the trunk and changing shirts before I drive home for over a decade, it's my lunchbox, thermos and how I walk that she objects to now.

    ...I don't know. Lawyer folks (from what I can tell) tend to place a lot more emphasis on which school you went to than does almost any other profession.

    According to my wife, when she went to law school in Massachusetts her classmates treated where one went to primary and high school as very important, which made her (as a west coast girl) feel very isolated.

    I do now remember a collegian that I got along with, he was an intern with the Port getting a degree in Engineering that I worked with in 2011, though he should have believed me sooner when I told him how fast the tide comes in.

  30. - Top - End - #780
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    As for experiencing "ball busting", my crew at work does that many times a day, though it's more common among the younger guys at work whom I no longer am numbered as after the retirements and new hires these past three years I'm now one of the "senior guys".
    I honestly wasn't sure whether you see it that way. To me, making fun of a guy for not sharing your hobbies is a comparatively inoffensive (in the sense that it's making fun of something that very few people would tie to their self-worth) way to bust a friend's chops, but the way you talked about it made it sound like you regarded it as a very hostile way in which they were holding themselves above you. You seemed to take very deep, sincere offense that they were giving you crap about not watching sports, which implied to me that the whole guys ragging on each other thing was outside the scope of your worldview.

    I'm going to continue to disagree with your assertions about college though. I don't disagree that they're more expensive than they were before in general--particularly our defunded public universities--but in many respects they've gotten more accessible. One major problem is that people seem to feel much more entitled than before. As I keep saying, community colleges are a great institution. Many of the professionals I know who came from poor backgrounds and--quite frankly--half-assed their way through high school turned things around by working through an associates degree over three or four years. (Of course, by your metric they might also count as "elites" since I regard them as people who are naturally pretty talented, but simply didn't apply themselves until adulthood.) However, a lot of people for whom this is a smart, sustainable route don't want to do it. They figure if they can get into a full time university and they can borrow the money to pay for it, then they're too good for community college. And they're a lot of the people in trouble right now, because they gambled everything on a degree being a winning lottery ticket, when in fact it's only a key that can open certain doors for you.

    Ironically, this only proves my point--a large part of the student debt problem is a direct result of the expansion of the federal student financing system and the private student loan industry, which made college more accessible to the people who could least afford it.

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