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2017-10-05, 09:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Volo's Guide: How should NPCs treat monster races?
And in Eberron, which is almost completely civilised, Thranes are all oppressive xenophobic lunatics while Aundairans are all godless arcane heathens. The two countries share a border, religion, races and trade. Stereotypes and discrimination exist by default in D&D, and using real-world racism as a model can make the world more immersive and involving.
Take the rivalry between the "snobbish straitlaced tea-drinking" Britons and the "cheese-eating, sex bimbo, cowardly" French as an example. You can easly recast similar stereotypes into the different kingdoms of D&D. Humans can't get along at all in reality, so why should humanoids in fiction? The reason you need adventurers to take on the demon that just burst out of the ground? Aundair hopes it'll move in Thrane's direction and won't send an army, and Thrane have faith that their faith will send the demon running in Aundair's direction and won't deploy either. Hence, PCs who just want to put the thing back into wherever it came from for loot and XP.Spoiler: Quotes from the Playground
Adapting published monsters to Eberron: Naturalist's Guide to Eberron Latest: Annis Hag
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Re: Volo's Guide: How should NPCs treat monster races?
That does not necessarily follow, but I catch your point in that one can expand the number of monstrous sorts who fit into the setting ...
Hmm, I wonder how this line of argument fits into the game. I realize that this is part of a derail of the thread, but there may be a way to weave a few of these themes constructively into how PCs and NPCs interact. Maybe not.
I will disagree on one point, since my intro to alignments in OD&D law/neutral/chaos was soft enough around the edges to be a very workable tool. Unfortunately, it wasn't left well enough alone. I am glad at what 5e is trying to do with alignment ... baby steps, I guess.
Alignments are now descriptive of actions instead of prescribing actions.
... don't mess with them, treat them warily, stay out of their way, take their money as quickly as possibly and then get them out of your shop/farm/town. And if you're truly desperate, hire them to deal with a problem.
they were on a sailing ship heading for the Islands to do a quest. My daughter's character frequently got the "women are bad luck on a ship" response from crew members besides the owner who had hired the party and was on the boat. This harkens back to a very old Real Life sailor superstition about women being aboard ship being bad luck. After about the third of fourth time this came up, my daughter gave me a funny look and asked me why the sailors kept doing that. We took a break from the game to discuss superstitions and taboos, how they are a thing, and how people in close knit groups sometimes develop a very jaundiced view of outsiders to their group. (I spent a career in the Navy and had seen what cliques can do, in terms of damage to morale and mission). I then asked both her and my son about superstitions they'd heard about, and if they noticed cliques in their schools who spread rumors or said rude/false things about other people. They had both seen, heard, and experienced it.
When we got back to the game, the random dice never got an encounter at sea, so they debarked for their quest and they didn't have to deal with those superstitious sailors any more. The people in the town reacted to them as foreigners, and that was a different role play fun thing, but they didn't have that particular taboo or superstition.
For example, the Red Wizards of Thay and Zhents had at least as bad a rep as monstrous humanoids in many places for a long time. If not worse. (The Zhents have bust out the PR department in recent times. Can't recall of the top of my head if that applies to Thay as well.)Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2017-10-05 at 10:37 AM.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
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2017-10-05, 10:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Volo's Guide: How should NPCs treat monster races?
Okay, going to respectfully link the forum rules announcement in this thread. It should be possible for this thread to continue on topic without being locked, and personally I like the topic because it's important to me as a DM. But if folks keep violating the forum rules it'll get locked or removed.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1
Harpers and Zhents especially. The Lords Alliance less so, although I'm sure the FR conspiracy theorists would think otherwise.
My lore on Thay is sorta old, and I find their presence as a unified guild of magicians to run into the realm sized plot hole of "why have they not taken over the world yet?"Last edited by Tanarii; 2017-10-05 at 10:37 AM.
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Re: Volo's Guide: How should NPCs treat monster races?
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2017-10-05, 11:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Volo's Guide: How should NPCs treat monster races?
Joke aside, I'm not up-to-date on the Thay lore either, but I think it's said the Red Wizards are tolerated because they're one of the few groups who can somewhat reliably trade magic items.
On the subject of even regular adventurers being viewed with fear, well, they tend to be pretty powerful people who make a living killing dangerous things and surviving crazy things, and getting a lot of money out of it.
Maybe they won't be treated with outright fear, but most people would be pretty cautious about them. The same way that a small shop owner would be cautious if a guy in an expensive suit with three bodyguards suddenly showed in their shop.
It doesn't mean that all adventurers are going to seem impressive, though.
Indeed I were.Last edited by Unoriginal; 2017-10-05 at 11:14 AM.
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Re: Volo's Guide: How should NPCs treat monster races?
That doesn't sound like any PC I've ever known.
That's why I saidnerdsmercs*. So more like a hugely muscled unshaven soldier of fortune wearing a muscle shirt that hasn't been washed in a week, with an assault rifle slung over their shoulder, suddenly showing up in their shop.
*gotta love autocorrect. Not sure what kinda nerds my iPad has been playing with recentlyLast edited by Tanarii; 2017-10-05 at 11:49 AM.
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Re: Volo's Guide: How should NPCs treat monster races?
Last edited by Maxilian; 2017-10-05 at 11:55 AM.
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Re: Volo's Guide: How should NPCs treat monster races?
The Red Wizards aren't unified at all, which is one of the reasons why the Thayans haven't conquered a large part of The Realms (well, Thay is a pretty large nation, but still).
First are their neighbours. To the North is Rashemen, whose people have sent every invasion of The Red Wizards packing thanks to their Berserkers (folks such as Minsc), the Witches that rule the country, and the spirits that protect the land. To the east are the Sunrise mountains and the endless wastes, to the South is the Empire of Mulhorand and to the west is Aglarond, which is protected by the Dragonjaw Mountains and a deep forest that is scryproof. The Thayans haven't been able to conquer Aglarond, which is key to further expansion.
Second is the infighting between the Red Wizards. The 8 Zulkirs (representing each one of the schools of magic) are headed by Szass Tam, and the other 7 Zulkirs plot against each other as much as they do to take over The Realms. A Red Wizard has to guard from plots below and above. In this way, Szass Tam ensures that none of the other 7 Zulkirs can plot to overthrow him, because they are too busy fending off plots real or imagined.
There have also been instances in which one Zulkir has been encouraged to mount an invasion of a neighbouring nation, only to be left high and dry when a fellow Zulkir or a subordinate has withdrawn aid and left the Zulkir to carry the can for a failed invasion.
There is also a faction in Thay that has come to the conclusion that because the nations that surround them are unconquerable, they should instead make money by the sale of magical items, and to this end, they establish Thayan enclaves in other nations and major cities. Usually these enclaves are self contained and the Thayans usually keep to themselves, with most of the interaction coming from selling magic items.Gnome Wizard by DarkCorax
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Re: Volo's Guide: How should NPCs treat monster races?
So the Thayans have an entire faction of Lex Luthors cashing checks?
Spoiler: Quotes from the Playground
Adapting published monsters to Eberron: Naturalist's Guide to Eberron Latest: Annis Hag
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Re: Volo's Guide: How should NPCs treat monster races?
Last edited by Mitth'raw'nuruo; 2017-10-05 at 01:31 PM.
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Re: Volo's Guide: How should NPCs treat monster races?
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Re: Volo's Guide: How should NPCs treat monster races?
This is the kind of discussion that happens when a game first defines a number of species as wicked monsters that can and should be attacked on sight, then gives players the means to play them.
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Re: Volo's Guide: How should NPCs treat monster races?
Spoiler: Quotes from the Playground
Adapting published monsters to Eberron: Naturalist's Guide to Eberron Latest: Annis Hag
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2017-10-05, 03:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Volo's Guide: How should NPCs treat monster races?
They shouldn't be attacked on sight because we're monsters, it just happens that they're mostly known for attacking other people on sight to kill and steal.
Goblins can trade with humans, and they do, but most of the time a group of goblins on the road will act like bandits and raiders.
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Re: Volo's Guide: How should NPCs treat monster races?
I've been yelled at previously for making this point, so obviously I wasn't communicating well enough in the past - let me try again.
A lot of us are conflating or mistaking two separate things as one. Let me start with the undead. The undead are "evil" and inherently programmed to attack the living - at least for the most part. It's ethically okay to hate or feel some extreme emotion against the undead because of this. It helps that they have no redeeming qualities and truly are "monsters" - "bad" - "evil".
In fantasy stories some races of living beings are created as being "so evil" or so "broken" or something akin to this that it's reasonable to mistrust, outlaw, avoid, or maybe even KoS them - by definition. We're not talking about reality.
In reality, which I'll only barely touch on here, different groups of humans have been greatly harmed when other groups falsely label them bad things, which is used to justify all sorts of horrible (and unjustified) behavior against them. This too can be a feature of a DnD world. For example, in AL there is a city that outlaws all non-humans - and that's an example of this.
If orcs are like Tolkien orcs they are inherently "evil" because their basic creator, a Morgoth like being, made them that way - similar to undead - and largely or wholly irredeemable. If you use that model for orcs, it isn't "wrong" to treat orcs in a heavy-handed way. But if your pattern for orcs is something else and if "but they're evil" is really more the creation of human-centric propaganda and not fact - if orcs have choice over committing good or evil, for example - then we need to treat them differently, at least from an ethical standpoint.
Once you grasp this simple premise, 99% of the previous argument fades away. Think about it. I wish you peace.
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Re: Volo's Guide: How should NPCs treat monster races?
Sorry, but wrong. You can't say "they shouldn't" (edit, in every case). You can't assume "it just happens." (edit in every case) This is why we're fighting on this thread, because some of us are not respecting how the various worlds we play in are wired or created.
If you're right that "it just happens" in the world you're in, then for that world yes, you're right - "they shouldn't."
But if you're in another world and they actually are monsters - you're wrong - because they can't choose between good and evil - they always choose either evil or calculate a "good" choice to fool someone so they can perform a greater evil down the road. You can't go on denying that in a fantasy setting this parameter or foundation element can exist. That you and some others seem to be denying the possibility of evil in various fantasy worlds <-- this is why we're arguing, and it's getting silly.
Please let's distinguish the two and argue from that premise. It's absurd to do otherwise. Can't you see it?Last edited by Chugger; 2017-10-05 at 03:42 PM.
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Re: Volo's Guide: How should NPCs treat monster races?
My argument is from the perspective that this is a game. If your whole party is monstrous races, or drow, then go ahead and make a theme of it.
But if you're trying to make a racial point and only one of your players actually plays a lizardman, that's not good. You'll penalize that player, or give him more or less attention than the others, or force him to change his play style, or similar. And all of that will be due to his race choice. That is not good for the game.
So like I've said, if you want to talk about racism, it needs to be a central theme. If it isn't, then including it to any meaningful degree isn't going to do you any favors.Breaking BM: Revised - an updated look at the beast-mounted halfling ranger based on the Revised Ranger: Beast Conclave.
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Re: Volo's Guide: How should NPCs treat monster races?
We're largely talking past each other. Have you ever stopped to ask yourself that the player who chose lizardfolk might actually want to be picked on? Might want the challenge? "Not good for the game" sure if at that table such behavior or attitude is wrong - but at other tables with other people, who knows? Why are you imposing your will onto all people? Why are you not allowing for variance? That's what I don't understand. I'm saying do what's right for the table - for the people at that table - for the world they've accepted at that table. You seem to be saying that you have a DnD-wide rule that has to be imposed at every DnD table regardless of the desires of the people sitting there. Now do you see?
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Re: Volo's Guide: How should NPCs treat monster races?
I'm stating what I think the general policy ought to be, nothing more. I don't think DMs ought to assume that players want to experience racism. Given rule zero, DMs are free to do, and should do, what they feel is right at their table. I thought that went without saying.
Last edited by Easy_Lee; 2017-10-05 at 03:59 PM.
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Re: Volo's Guide: How should NPCs treat monster races?
Eberron as default is coming out of a major war in which many nations fought. One of these nations used goblinoid mercenaries who took a substantial swathe of land from that country and declared it their own state. When the nation was destroyed, the goblin-held portion remained unaffected. What would the default reaction of a refugee from this country be when they meet a goblin, even one that was never involved in the annexing? They'd make judgements solely based on the goblin's race and treat them poorly, even if racism isn't a theme of the campaign.
Discrimination isn't all or nothing. You can have discriminatory behaviour towards a certain group without ruining the campaign. As Chugger says, the player may even enjoy the campaign more for those little moments of acknowledgement. If it makes you uncomfortable including that sort of thing at your table, that's entirely your prerogative, but you can't tell others that its wrong to discuss or enjoy such issues at their own table. Personally, I enjoy having the players meet and examine different cultures, whether human or nonhuman.
It's why I like Eberron so much. There are no outright monsters. Even the gnolls, cast by VGtM as basically hyena-shaped locusts, are complex and sympathetic in Eberron. Only the true exemplars of that alignment; celestials, fey, fiends, slaadi and modrons, are locked into their alignment. And even then, there are fallen angels and sympathetic fiends. Even the incomprehensible aberrations from the plane of madness can be worked with, even if their motivations are strange.Spoiler: Quotes from the Playground
Adapting published monsters to Eberron: Naturalist's Guide to Eberron Latest: Annis Hag
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Re: Volo's Guide: How should NPCs treat monster races?
Volo's Guide assumes Monstrous Characters might experience racism.
"Don't be afraid to push things to an extreme. An orc character might have to venture into town in disguise
or remain in the wilderness, for fear of imprisonment or mob violence. "
The section asks the question are they regarded as no stranger then elves or dwarves or are they met with suspicion. It says what role the race plays in the setting should determine the kinds of reactions people get. That should be the general policy.
Thus in the FR and most other established settings, Goblins, Orcs, Kobolds etc characters should have a harder time.
The default assumption for monstrous races is that THEY are treated differently. If a player doesn't want to experience that they're free to pick a standard race. Its why their considered optional with DM permission.Last edited by Lord Vukodlak; 2017-10-05 at 04:40 PM.
Nale is no more, he has ceased to be, his hit points have dropped to negative ten, all he was is now dust in the wind, he is not Daniel Jackson dead, he is not Kenny dead, he is final dead, he will not pass through death's revolving door, his fate will not be undone because the executives renewed his show for another season. His time had run out, his string of fate has been cut, the blood on the knife has been wiped. He is an Ex-Nale! Now can we please resume watching the Order save the world.
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Re: Volo's Guide: How should NPCs treat monster races?
Historically, this is not remotely true. Heavily-armed societies tended to erupt into violence fairly easily, and insults would frequently lead to blood feuds.
Surely the possibility of violence would stay the barbs of our ancestors, you say.
But no. No, they just stabbed each other a lot.
In fact, as societies become more armed, they tend to become less polite. This is because people who keep a weapon on their hip tend to let their surrogate phallus make them overconfident, which leads to rudeness. Just as people who carry guns in their vehicles are statistically more likely to flip off other vehicles, our ancestors who wore messers were more likely to mouth off. In a society in which most men have a messer, a higher-than-normal percentage of those men will be likely to mouth off at someone, and that someone will be statistically likely to react violently.
Compound that with the fact that untrained amateurs tend to be more confident in their abilities than experts, and you have a tendency for societies with heavily-armed populations to have very rude populations prone to violence.
However, societies with enormous disparities between who can and cannot carry a weapon tend to be more polite because the terrified citizenry don't want to die on the arbitrary whims of nobles (eg: Tokugawa Japan).
Tl;Dr: spreading access to means of committing violence does not make people any nicer.Last edited by EvilAnagram; 2017-10-05 at 05:06 PM.
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Re: Volo's Guide: How should NPCs treat monster races?
Breaking BM: Revised - an updated look at the beast-mounted halfling ranger based on the Revised Ranger: Beast Conclave.
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Re: Volo's Guide: How should NPCs treat monster races?
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Re: Volo's Guide: How should NPCs treat monster races?
That's kind of disingenuous. I mean, you cast aspersions on my post, then immediately pretend that you're not participating in the conversation. At least stand by your statements. And I don't see how the historical murder rates of medieval societies isn't relevant to a typically pseudo-medieval fantasy game.
Anyways, it's not hard to find citations for any of that.
Medieval murder rates
Vehicular rudeness and firearms
Tokugawa society
I know I just linked to a wikipedia page on Edo society, but it's a bit complex for a single article. Read the page, then find a couple books on the subject.
My knowledge of the development of manners in the West basically comes from The Civilizing Process by Norbert Elias, so read that if you want to, I guess. Basically, he argues that manners developed because warlords who carved kingdoms in the low Middle Ages didn't want to constantly fight for power and see their kingdoms crumble after they died, so behavior at court became more regimented (it's why we call it courtesy), and as those manners developed the lower classes slowly soaked them up. They were positively adaptive because manners made you less likely to try to kill people, and people who were less likely to try to kill people were less likely to be killed.
I'm extrapolating from the prevalence of murder in the Middle Ages, the decline in the availability of common sidearms, and the way manners developed to arrive at the conclusion that the development of manners, the reduction in the prevalence of weapons, and the decline in the death rate are related.
You see a spike in murder rates in early frontier America, too, which is a time and place where manners declined and gun ownership was common.
Basically, weapons don't make people more polite, but they do make already-rude people more brazen (because insecure people tend to look outside themselves to find confidence). It's not appropriate to suggest polite people don't carry weapons (nobles always carried weapons until the modern era), but weapons never enforced manners, except amongst the unarmed.
Yup.Last edited by EvilAnagram; 2017-10-05 at 07:39 PM.
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Re: Volo's Guide: How should NPCs treat monster races?
This whole thread makes me so glad that WoTC put out this information as part of their "Children of Darkness" article in Dragon #367. Whilst this is focused specifically on the drow, its basic point remains: a monster adventurer does not HAVE to be met with torches and pitchforks just to make the player remember that they need to keep their head down in human society.
Although drow villains and heroes appear throughout the fiction, adventures, and game products, it’s important to note their place in the Dungeons & Dragons game, at least in regard to their numbers. Doing so reveals a great deal about the position the drow occupy in the minds of the common folk in the world. The Monster Manual presents drow adversaries from levels 11 to level 15, placing them squarely in the lower half of the paragon tier. As such, they represent threats and foes that transcend the common person’s experiences, and they exist far beyond the typical threats an ordinary member of a race might face. In fact, the Arcana DC of 20 to identify even a basic salient feature about this race indicates that few commoners know anything about them at all. Certainly, sages, leaders, and figures of note with a bit more worldly experience likely know more of these insidious villains, but for the typical person in the world, the drow are more myth than reality. Even those folks who know of the drow (say one in twenty), the extent of their knowledge is largely limited to an understanding that they are a subterranean people who emerge to raid the surface for slaves, and they have little knowledge of Lolth’s influence over them.
Obviously, there are exceptions. It’s safe to say elves and eladrin know a bit more about the drow, given their historical connections. Also, drow prey on elves and eladrin more than they do other surface races, making drow a looming threat to these people. Still, among the smaller and more remote communities, one could suppose that an individual elf, eladrin, or half-elf has probably never seen a drow, wouldn’t know what to do if they encountered one, and certainly would have little idea about their culture and way of life. Again, the wiser and more powerful members of these populations would know more, but generally speaking, drow are an elusive, rarely seen, and widely misunderstood people that exist as a distant and shadowy threat.
From this, a drow player character is likely to move easier through the world than many DMs might otherwise allow. When dealing with common folk, shopkeepers, bartenders, artisans, the average individual might think the character’s appearance strange, maybe even unsettling, but treat that character the same way they would any individual possessed of an unusual appearance. Does this mean drow characters are free of prejudice and persecution? Not at all: The danger is more severe, for the people who know best about the drow are the ones best suited to cause these characters grief. Rival adventuring parties, powerful individuals knowledgeable in the nature of dark elves, and other people with a longstanding grudge against the drow can all harass a drow adventurer. So even though a drow character might move among the ignorant with ease, she must be ever vigilant about not attracting undue attention lest someone of consequence come to purge of the community of a real or perceived threat."Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
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