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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Witch's Cottage up to Archwizard's Castle (spells to become a stronghold builder)

    Quote Originally Posted by Deepbluediver View Post
    My point was mainly that the possibility of exploitation is something you should be aware of when homebrewing.
    One thing that I've found helpful is to state right at the start of my original post (where it can't be missed) what my intended goal with a particular 'brew is. That can help people determine if you want them to look for balance or point out things that need clarification or you simply want them to consider the story elements or anything else, and you won't get it (or maybe just have fewer) arguments over stuff that you might not care about.
    Well, I did include such a clause at the start of this post (including explicit mentions re: flavour) yet seem to have landed in another debate nonetheless. Them's the breaks, I guess :D

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    I think excessive use of Oberoni Fallacy to defend this kinda proves it's broken. Ideally, you should write homebrew that the DM shouldn't have to nerf or restrict via rule zero in order for it to be remotely playable, let alone actually balanced.
    Perhaps the following example will be helpful. Note that once you have a 9th-level wizard it can be repeated ad nauseam and relies strictly on RAW:

    0) Party wizard scries on the BBEG.
    1) Party wizard teleports party to BBEG.
    2) Any party member hurls "the bundle"* at the BBEG.
    3) Party member (cleric/bard/rogue UMD'ing scroll/etc.) casts dispel magic at CL 1
    4) BBEG is vaporised, party rakes in XP and loot and teleports back to safety if enemy minions are still around or if the original teleport didn't land on-target.
    5) Rinse and repeat for a thrilling campaign! :p
    *An arbitrarily large number of slips of paper inscribed with explosive runes, triggered by the low-power dispel magic and dealing sufficient force damage to kill even a tarrasque; in sufficient quantities that even evasion doesn't guarantee making all the saves.

    Again, 100% RAW, using 4 core spells that are considered balanced. I assume you would allow your players to do this as often as they wished? After all, it's a perfectly valid tactic and there's no specific ruling against it...

    My point is, I've already gone to great deal of trouble to write up these spells, and have taken pains to include limits on them. If a player is going to ignore the clear intent of these spells (i.e. flavour, not function), then that's on the player and their DM, not me. Otherwise, you might as ban spellcasting entirely due to the potential RAW abuses involved.

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: Witch's Cottage up to Archwizard's Castle (spells to become a stronghold builder)

    Yes, obviously, if you push spells to their limits, they do stupid things. But relatively trivially using the spells to do what they're meant to - a fountain of infinite healing potions heals, a flying fortress flies, gates gate, unlimited spells are unlimited - shouldn't produce that level of nonsense. The only thing you really can do with these spells that's within a reasonable power level seems to be set them up and leave them there to look pretty.
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  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Deepbluediver's Avatar

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    Default Re: Witch's Cottage up to Archwizard's Castle (spells to become a stronghold builder)

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    Well, I did include such a clause at the start of this post (including explicit mentions re: flavour) yet seem to have landed in another debate nonetheless. Them's the breaks, I guess :D
    Yeah, but it's not just about what you're trying to do, but WHY you want to do it and what you ultimately hope to achieve. The "building magical fortresses" is the what you're doing, but you might want to expand a little more on where you see players taking this.

    Example: Lets say you start a thread about fixing the Fighter. That's what you want to do. But "fix" is relative based on what you think the problems are and what you're comparing it to. So saying "I want to fix the Fighter so he has more out-of-combat options" gives people something specific to evaluate. As would "I want to fix the fighter by making him an unstoppable melee combat machine."
    Your thread seems to kind of start with "I want to make floating magical fortresses!" and kind of ends there, so a lot of people have the knee-jerk reaction (and rightfully so IMO) of "well that seems incredibly imbalanced".
    Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2017-11-11 at 11:41 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    It's not called common because the sense is common, it's called common because it's about common things.
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  4. - Top - End - #64
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Witch's Cottage up to Archwizard's Castle (spells to become a stronghold builder)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Yes, obviously, if you push spells to their limits, they do stupid things. But relatively trivially using the spells to do what they're meant to - a fountain of infinite healing potions heals, a flying fortress flies, gates gate, unlimited spells are unlimited - shouldn't produce that level of nonsense. The only thing you really can do with these spells that's within a reasonable power level seems to be set them up and leave them there to look pretty.
    Yes, precisely! These are meant to be fun fortresses the party can call their own. As for the individual benefits:

    Fountain of healing - can't be used to stock up on potions, so basically instead of teleporting back to town to heal via downtime you go to the stronghold.

    Flying Fortress - 5' move speed and since you need to know overland flight anyways you're better off casting that spell directly.

    Gate - you need to know gate anyways.

    Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like most of your issues are actually with enchanted chamber rather than the stronghold as a whole. I took extra care for that spell to mention how each of those effects are negotiable rather than something a PC is entitled to, but it's still admittedly only half-finished. I'm pretty drained WRT this homebrew by now but I suppose I could go through enchanted chamber again and write out specific, balanced options.

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Witch's Cottage up to Archwizard's Castle (spells to become a stronghold builder)

    Quote Originally Posted by Deepbluediver View Post
    Yeah, but it's not just about what you're trying to do, but WHY you want to do it and what you ultimately hope to achieve. The "building magical fortresses" is the what you're doing, but you might want to expand a little more on where you see players taking this.
    Well, I admit hadn't thought so much about that. Why would anyone read the SBG? Plot hooks, world-building, etc, I guess. As mentioned in the 1st post I did have the idea of the DM sending the BBEGs armies at the PC's fortress as a campaign chapter.... This was mainly an attempt to duplicate the material of that book in a streamlined, accessible, and low-cost way (e.g. enchanted chamber distills 50%+ of the book into one spell).
    Last edited by rferries; 2017-11-11 at 11:43 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: Witch's Cottage up to Archwizard's Castle (spells to become a stronghold builder)

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    Yes, precisely! These are meant to be fun fortresses the party can call their own.
    When you're making a homebrew, you need to check not only what it's for, and make sure it fulfils that, but what it's not for, and make sure it doesn't fulfil that. This is something that I've come across in a lot of your homebrew - omnipotence was supposed to be a spell for going nova with fireballs and such, and it is, but it's also a spell for spamming utility spells. The elf lord was meant to be a badass elves-are-awesome class, but it also turned out to be a fochluchan lyrist, minus the part where it's hard to get into, plus being way easier than most classes to get into, plus a bunch of broken stuff.

    And these spells. They're meant for you to be able to create your little fort on the prarie, a castle which you can retreat to when the adventuring life gets too tough. You certainly can make that with these spells, but you can also create a flying, teleporting, blizzard-surrounded siege engine of destruction which also acts as a firing platform and healing station. And it's not as though you have to twist the intent of the spells too much to get any of those things. You need to go ahead and put some restrictions on these, because what the homebrew doesn't let you do is as important as what it does. You need to make it so that the answer to "What is this for" stops being "Everything". Or, save it for epic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
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  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: Witch's Cottage up to Archwizard's Castle (spells to become a stronghold builder)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Or, save it for epic.
    Yeah, I sort of agree with that sentiment- some of the stuff in the PHB might not have felt quite as OP when it was written, and/or it takes a little but of effort and some extra splatbooks to really drive it home. This just kind of FEELS like it should be epic, right from the start.

    Since as you pointed out, Wizards have an effectively unlimited capacity to learn spells, the difference between being able to summon your giant floating doom-fortress with one spell and needing several to put it all together feels kind of inconsequential. It's the sort of artifact I'd expect to see as the center or the climax of an entire campaign, not the kind of thing the caster rattles off when he wants to go for a weekend's vacation.
    Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2017-11-11 at 12:00 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    It's not called common because the sense is common, it's called common because it's about common things.
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  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: Witch's Cottage up to Archwizard's Castle (spells to become a stronghold builder)

    The author/artist of a D&D webcomic I occasionally read has the latest update talking about strange or unusual mounts, and ends the post with the following paragraph:

    Quote Originally Posted by Colin Stricklin
    The single greatest mount I ever had that actually saw play was a tower. We took months in-game enchanting the silly thing, but the results were well worth it. Carved from indestructible black glass, our tower stood hundreds of feet high and handled like a dream. It awed the **** out of the peasantry whenever we flew it around. Iím pretty sure Immigrant Song played spontaneously when we turned the ignition. If memory serves itís still parked somewhere over the Isle of Terror in the Inner Sea Region, looming provocatively and causing an international incident.
    He likes to respond to people who leave comments, so maybe you could write something to him and ask about his experience with a moving stronghold. Just a thought.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    It's not called common because the sense is common, it's called common because it's about common things.
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  9. - Top - End - #69
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Witch's Cottage up to Archwizard's Castle (spells to become a stronghold builder)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    When you're making a homebrew, you need to check not only what it's for, and make sure it fulfils that, but what it's not for, and make sure it doesn't fulfil that. This is something that I've come across in a lot of your homebrew - omnipotence was supposed to be a spell for going nova with fireballs and such, and it is, but it's also a spell for spamming utility spells. The elf lord was meant to be a badass elves-are-awesome class, but it also turned out to be a fochluchan lyrist, minus the part where it's hard to get into, plus being way easier than most classes to get into, plus a bunch of broken stuff.

    And these spells. They're meant for you to be able to create your little fort on the prarie, a castle which you can retreat to when the adventuring life gets too tough. You certainly can make that with these spells, but you can also create a flying, teleporting, blizzard-surrounded siege engine of destruction which also acts as a firing platform and healing station. And it's not as though you have to twist the intent of the spells too much to get any of those things. You need to go ahead and put some restrictions on these, because what the homebrew doesn't let you do is as important as what it does. You need to make it so that the answer to "What is this for" stops being "Everything". Or, save it for epic.
    That's very good advice, I thought I had it covered this time but obviously not so I'll be more explicit next time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deepbluediver View Post
    Yeah, I sort of agree with that sentiment- some of the stuff in the PHB might not have felt quite as OP when it was written, and/or it takes a little but of effort and some extra splatbooks to really drive it home. This just kind of FEELS like it should be epic, right from the start.

    Since as you pointed out, Wizards have an effectively unlimited capacity to learn spells, the difference between being able to summon your giant floating doom-fortress with one spell and needing several to put it all together feels kind of inconsequential. It's the sort of artifact I'd expect to see as the center or the climax of an entire campaign, not the kind of thing the caster rattles off when he wants to go for a weekend's vacation.
    Wellllllll it depends. Witch's cottage + enchanted architecture was meant to allow you to create a Hansel & Gretel gingerbread house for example, a distinctly non-epic effect. Similarly, wizard's tower could be used by an NPC or BBEG to create a thematic locale, or enchanted aura + enchanted wall could duplicate the sleep spell and thorn wall of Sleeping Beauty. Once you start erecting prismatic enchanted mazes and creating enchanted realms it gets very high-magic yes, but depending on the power level of the campaign that could be par for the course.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deepbluediver View Post
    The author/artist of a D&D webcomic I occasionally read has the latest update talking about strange or unusual mounts, and ends the post with the following paragraph:

    He likes to respond to people who leave comments, so maybe you could write something to him and ask about his experience with a moving stronghold. Just a thought.
    Thank you for the very thoughtful suggestion, but that's starting to sound like work haha. I'll save doing research and looking up references for my professional life, I'm just here to churn out some flights of fancy.
    Last edited by rferries; 2017-11-11 at 04:05 PM.

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