Theory crafting a dodging tank - what's your take?

[Jethro]

SO...

I was thinking about various builds, interesting things, etc. I was thinking about monks and their features and I realized one of their most powerful Ki abilities isn't Flurry, but the Bonus Action Dodge. So I figured why not create a supreme Dodge Tank. One that can attack while it dodges. I came up with a couple ideas:

Bladesinger 2/Monk X
This is probably the best and simplest of my ideas. Combine unarmored defense with bladesinging AC bonus and even more movement and this can be quite potent potentially. Locks you into a shortsword or dagger as a weapon and elf/half-elf as a build and also likely requires a helm of intelligence to make full use, but if that's not an issue you're looking at AC 20 at 3rd level and 24 at 18th level. Add in 3 spell slots for Shield and plenty of ki for dodging and you have a pretty aggressive defense build.

Druid 2/Monk X
Shillelagh allows early usage of wisdom to be the main attack use, including a higher save DC for stunning strike early. Medium Armor and Shield proficiency becomes the main defense build...that's an AC of 18 to 19 to start, plus Dodge. It loses effectiveness as it goes further, about level 8, once unarmored defense eclipses medium armor. It's not a huge difference from just straight monk. Still an extra 2-3 AC in the first 8 levels can make a HUGE difference, as can an increase in the Stunning Save DC, especially in conjunction with wild shape.

Cleric 1-6/Monk X
One level of cleric optimises the defense with a starting AC of 18-20 (if you can get plate). I'd recommend War Domain, though any with Heavy Armor proficiency is best as 20 AC will be dominant until level 16 (assuming standard array/point buy) when you can max your attributes. Cleric spells help with Armor of Faith (+2 AC - 22 total AC) and extra levels grant Spirit Guardians - kinda the perfect spell for a dodging tank. This one was my first thought, and seems like it could be quite effective...
EDIT: Nature Cleric.. how could I forget. Starting with Heavy Armor prof and Shillelagh is pretty damn good for those first 8-12 levels...

Fighter 1/Monk X
A fighting style, rapier and heavy armor and shield proficiency leads to better damage output than any of the other builds. Simple 18-20 AC similar to the Cleric above. Not the most elegant, but effective.

Barbarian 1-4/Monk X
Ok, this might be the most effective as a straight tank. First, decide on Barb or Monk Unarmored Defense. Barb gets shield proficiency (meaning 2 higher AC) and WAY more hitpoints. Monk gets a better Stunning Save, eventual damage, and movement speed. If you go Barb, max Dex and Con and use a rapier and shield. If Monk, use Med Armor and Shield until the stats catch up - usually level 8/12. 3-4 levels of Barbarian and you add a totem and an extra rage usage. Can't say I love the build, but talking AC of 22 by the end if taking the Barbarian route along with Rage resistance...

The whole point is to retain attacks while Dodging every round. It's not a damage build, but a very solid Tank one. Ki usage isn't dependent on being unarmored, neither is stunning strike or many of the other subclass options. Though, Open Hand is probably the worst choice, since Flurry won't be happening. Long Death is an obvious choice and Shadow Monk another solid choice, with a ready made escape option. Like all Monk builds it'll take time to come online. If it weren't so dependent on a specific item, the bladesinger build is probably the most effective, providing excellent AC by level 3, otherwise I think the Druid holds the most promise...not the best AC, but it does seem to coincide well with the level rate of the build.

Anyway, what do you all think? Is it practical? Fun? A waste of time

EDIT: One thing I completely forgot about was the strength requirement for Heavy Armor. Definitely puts a crimp in the plans, essentially making a commitment to either wearing armor forever and dumping Dex or having a subpar Constitution or relying on medium or natural armor (hello Tortle!) and shield to reach 18/19 AC...which could work, just not as good as heavy armor and shield for 20 AC.

[Easy_Lee]

My concern is that the Dodge action isn't that strong compared to some other options. You have to be able to see attackers to disadvantage their attacks, meaning blindness, darkness, and sneak attacks can turn off that benefit. You also give up your bonus action and have to spend Ki. Since the benefits you gain from the Dodge action are limited, it isn't always the best choice.

Here's another option, and it's popular for a reason.

Warlock/Shadow Monk: You can cast darkness on yourself either with Warlock slots or Monk Ki, and use Devil's Sight to see through it. Now anything that doesn't have tremorsense has disadvantage to attack you. You can almost always see attacks coming due to Devil's sight and high perception, meaning you're free to take the Dodge action with your Ki when you need to. Attributes seem like they would be a problem since you need 13 charisma to multiclass out of Warlock. But in fact, a non-variant human with starting array 8/15/13/8/15/12 goes to 9/16/14/9/16/13, perfectly serviceable for the build. Warlock gets you a great deal of utility as well, and both classes recover resources on a short rest. To top it all off, this build has first-rate stealth. If your party is cooperative, you can solve many situations alone. This is a competitive build.

[PeteNutButter]

I've played with this idea several times myself, and am planning a barbarian/monk for my AL game tomorrow. You can still flurry in armor, you just can't use the basic bonus action attack, use dex for attack and damage or get the bonus monk die. So for the barbarian, having a way to boost your unarmed damage from 1 to 1d4 by either using the tavern brawler feat or a race makes flurry a viable action in combat when you have the ki and don't feel the need to dodge.

The upside if you stick to strength is you get your rage damage on those flurry punches.

What I'm doing now though is using the tortle. It gives you the bonus unarmed damage, but more importantly it gives a solid AC, without having to rely on dex. So you can rock a maul and flurry getting your rage bonus on those +1d4 unarmed damage dice. It's got a lot of synergy and feels like the best use of the tortle race. Unfortunately, due to annoying AL rules I can't go long death, so am stuck with open hand.

For any of these builds, I don't think you want much more ~5 levels in monk. Going past that is just for more ki, or perhaps some defense boosts. If you go bear totem barb 4/monk 7 you have resistance to everything, dodge as a bonus action, evasion backed up by danger sense, and can use stillness of mind if you get hit with a charm/frighten effect. That's a durable little tank.

If you are feeling extra trolly, throw on 5 levels in rogue for uncanny dodge and take quarter damage when they manage to get through... although long death level 11 is probably just too much survival to care at that point.

[Naanomi]

Long Death Monks make pretty decent tanks, in part because of the bonus action dodge but also have some other survivability (and fear for control)

[djreynolds]

An eldritch knight can grab the blur spell at 8th level. With plate armor and a shield, coupled with the shield spell.... very unhittable.

[Jethro]

Here's another option, and it's popular for a reason.

Warlock/Shadow Monk

I've played this and it's very successful as a solo build, but isn't as useable as a team tank build. The Darkness tends to impede/annoy the other players and for good reason. It's effective - though I find Hex over Darkness to be more useful.

There's two aspects to a good tank IMO:
1) Being able to withstand attacks. That can mean damage resistance or it can mean damage avoidance. Obviously this thread focuses on damage avoidance, though resistance is important too.
2) Taking the focus of enemy attacks, so as to spare your teammates and allow them to target enemies selectively.

Darkness does the first part, but unfortunately skips the second entirely. Since the enemy can't see you it negates the whole point of them targeting you.

I've played with this idea several times myself, and am planning a barbarian/monk for my AL game tomorrow. You can still flurry in armor, you just can't use the basic bonus action attack, use dex for attack and damage or get the bonus monk die. So for the barbarian, having a way to boost your unarmed damage from 1 to 1d4 by either using the tavern brawler feat or a race makes flurry a viable action in combat when you have the ki and don't feel the need to dodge.

The upside if you stick to strength is you get your rage damage on those flurry punches.

What I'm doing now though is using the tortle. It gives you the bonus unarmed damage, but more importantly it gives a solid AC, without having to rely on dex. So you can rock a maul and flurry getting your rage bonus on those +1d4 unarmed damage dice. It's got a lot of synergy and feels like the best use of the tortle race. Unfortunately, due to annoying AL rules I can't go long death, so am stuck with open hand.

Tortle is something I hadn't thought of! Interesting idea. I also like the strength focus as an alternative. I don't know that it's optimal for the idea I'm proposing, but it's darn cool! Let me know how it goes!

Long Death Monks make pretty decent tanks, in part because of the bonus action dodge but also have some other survivability (and fear for control)

True. I guess I'm searching for a higher AC, especially in early levels to heighten the effect.

An eldritch knight can grab the blur spell at 8th level. With plate armor and a shield, coupled with the shield spell.... very unhittable.

Well, yes. That's true. But till level 8 how effective is it? To be fair, these are only builds that really make marked improvements over the standard monk before level 12. After that it tends to catch up to any of the other builds.

Being able to get their 2 standard attacks and still dodge is a unique monk trait. A higher AC magnifies that effect.

[djreynolds]

Blur is a 2nd level spell, so a 3rd level bladesinger/ ? monk could be pretty fun to play

[JellyPooga]

Dodge is a fairly bad way to generate Disadvantage on attack rolls against you, generally speaking. Just some things to consider;

- You have to be able to see your target. Not only does an invisible attacker not get Disadvantage from your Dodge, but they still get Advantage for being unseen. Complete waste of your Dodge Action. Dodge does nothing if you're fighting in the dark (what counts as "dark" may differ for different builds/characters).

- If your speed is zero, Dodge does nothing. Do you know one really easy way to get a Monks speed to zero? Yeah, grapple. Monks very often have low Strength (it's not like they need it), so are typically really bad at grappling. To make it worse, taking the Dodge action does nothing to improve your ability to resist grapples (oddly enough). Restrained is also a pretty common condition that drops speed to zero and Stunned, while less common, is frequently encountered often enough to be of concern.

- High attack modifiers don't care much about Disadvantage. Any critter attacking with +8 or more to hit really doesn't give that much of a damn that you're Dodging unless your AC is also very high (i.e. >18). This makes a build relying on Dodge largely ineffectual in higher tiers of play or against more powerful foes that you really don't want to be hit by.

[Varlon]

- If your speed is zero, Dodge does nothing. Do you know one really easy way to get a Monks speed to zero? Yeah, grapple. Monks very often have low Strength (it's not like they need it), so are typically really bad at grappling. To make it worse, taking the Dodge action does nothing to improve your ability to resist grapples (oddly enough)

What does make it easier is that you can use DEX(Acrobatics) to both avoid and escape grapples.

[Mortis_Elrod]

I don't really value dodge all that much even bonus action dodge. I'm not sure what the goal is here, but if its to never get hit then look no further than a 3 level in dip into the College of Satire. Tumbling Fool is what you need. You get Dash + Disengage along with half damage from falling and a climb speed = to walking speed. Thats a lot you for you're bonus action, and its not using a resource like a monks dodge is. You get some other nice bard things too but thats just gravy.

If you want to use monk so badly, follow the Way of the Drunken Master so you can flurry and still disengage. Thats a 2 for 1 special on Ki with a free 10 feet of movement with every purchase.

Lastly it needs mentioning but the rogues cunning action is pretty useful too.

However if you really want to Dodge and nothing else then the other posters probably have you covered. I prefer to disengage and move around the battlefield myself. More cinematic that way.

[Jethro]

I guess I'm the only one that appreciates a nice tank in front of me.

JellyPooga - Just because it isn't always useful, doesn't mean it's useless. As Varlon said above, Acrobatics works to avoid a grapple. I've seen dodge builds used to great effect at lower levels...maybe it falls apart after 8 levels or so, but it can be a powerful tool. And, no, this won't work against every enemy out there, but little does. The whole idea is a high AC combined with Dodge.

Mortis_Elrod - I agree completely avoiding damage by staying out of melee is nice, but generally someone has to face the rampaging hordes face to face - costs the same bonus action ki to disengage if you'd rather.

The idea is that most teams benefit from a tank, but maybe a tank that avoids getting hit is better than one that absorbs hits. Or at least comparable. Or isn't always a fighter/barbarian/paladin. Or something...it's a theory craft in any case...

[Jethro]

Blur is a 2nd level spell, so a 3rd level bladesinger/ ? monk could be pretty fun to play

Cast a Mirror Image on top of that while you're there and you have one hell of tank!

Edit: I think Bladesinger 2-3/Monk X is the way to go. Need certain Headband to make it really rock, but it can get kinda crazy high AC that way...and I actually think Kensei Monk would be best...+2 bonus AC for when you run out of Ki to dodge, longsword to hit with, it can be a pretty nasty combination I think...just really dependent on items and/or insane stat rolls to make it work.

[JellyPooga]

JellyPooga - Just because it isn't always useful, doesn't mean it's useless. As Varlon said above, Acrobatics works to avoid a grapple. I've seen dodge builds used to great effect at lower levels...maybe it falls apart after 8 levels or so, but it can be a powerful tool. And, no, this won't work against every enemy out there, but little does. The whole idea is a high AC combined with Dodge.

The problem is that at low levels, when Bonus Action Dodge is the most useful (especially with a multiclass build), you don't have enough Ki points to do it reliably/frequently enough to make it a worthwhile concern (not, at least, worth building a character around the concept anyway) and at high levels you probably have better things to do with your Ki and Bonus Actions.

Don't get me wrong, Dodge is a solid action whose tactical use can save lives and the option of using it as a Bonus Action is a useful tool. I just don't think it's worth building a character to try and exploit its possibilities because...well, there aren't many of them. Disadvantage is Disadvantage and there are many ways to impose it, Dodge being one of the simplest, but it doesn't stack and very few (if any) abilities trigger off of your opponent having it. Further, the opportunity cost of taking the Dodge Action is pretty high; for most, it means forgoing an entire turns Action. For Monks it costs precious Ki and a Bonus Action which could have been spent on making another attack or two, potentially forgoing the opportunity to Shove (Open Hand) or Stun (Stunning Fist) your opponent (the latter of which prevent any attacks at all; a far superior outcome to mere Disadvantage). That's putting aside other uses of Bonus Actions or Ki that Monks and other Classes you might MC into have. By comparison, let's face it...once any character hits 5th level, giving your opponent Disadvantage is pretty much par for the course. Just about the worst use of the Haste spell would be to use one of your two Actions per turn to Dodge and while Haste is a solid spell, I don't consider it one of the best of its level. Heck, Fog Cloud gives all of your opponents in a massive area Disadvantage on attacks and that's only a 1st level spell.

The best use of Dodge is vs. multiple foes or foes with many attacks, but unless you have some way to draw those attacks to you, you're not going to get massive use out of it. If you're set on building a character designed to get the most out of Dodge, your first port of call isn't how to use it and still be able to attack, it's to find a way to draw aggro so that your Dodge is doing more work for you; unfortunately, "drawing aggro" is a concept that largely doesn't exist in 5ed. That said, there are some options;

- Compelled Duel. Paladin (or Bard) only. Does what it says on the tin. If you're also able to Dodge, the target basically has Disadvantage against everyone. Not bad for a 1st level spell.

- Sentinel Feat. Doesn't force anyone to do anything, but it certainly encourages foes to attack you once they know about it. Relies on having a strong off-turn attack to be truly effective. Both Rogues and Paladins accomplish this nicely.

- The "Cage Match". This is a catch-all term for any spell or effect that traps a foe (or foes) in an enclosed or limited space with you, literally forcing them to attack you and not your friends. There are many ways to do this; Grappling is a resource free one, but limited to single targets. Many spells create walls or barriers, most of which are of higher level than might be desired (Blade Barrier, Wall of X, Forcecage, etc.), but even a lowly Entangle or Grease can be your friend here. Spike Growth and other damaging or terrain manipulating spells are also options. The "problem" with most of the lower level versions of this tactic is that they require everyone in the area to make Str or Dex Saves or suffer the same effects; a problem that can be counteracted by having good Str and Dex Saves or by having a Careful Sorcerer or Evoker Wizard friend do all the spellcasting for you.

There are probably some other options too, but I won't go off on a tangent. So where does this leave us?

1) You want to be a V.Human to grab Sentinel from level 1. Sentinel is the Tank feat. Don't leave the Monastery without it.
2) You don't want to suck at Grapples or Str/Dex Saves. Being a Monk at level 1 gives you Proficiency in those Saves, so that's not a problem. As a Monk, you've got the option of Acrobatics and Athletics proficiency too. Seize that opportunity.
3) You want better Saves, stronger off-turn attacks and better AC than Monk offers. You ideally also want spellcasting. 6 levels of Paladin offers all of these things.
4) You want to be able to draw aggro. Paladin can do this. Ancients Paladin does it better; Ensnaring Strike and Nature's Wrath both lock-down opponents and Moonbeam is a solid area denial spell.

Paladin 6/Monk X would be my top recommendation.

Alternatively, everything a Paladin does, a Bard can (sad to say) often do better. Expertise and Enlarge Person for better Grappling than pretty much anyone. Access to the same badass spell-list and beyond. Cutting Words to further reduce your foes' ability to hit...well, anything. As an added bonus, unlike with Paladin, a Lore Bard doesn't duplicate the Monks Extra Attack.

Bard 6/Monk X is also a solid option for a Dodge-Tank.

[PeteNutButter]

Tortle is something I hadn't thought of! Interesting idea. I also like the strength focus as an alternative. I don't know that it's optimal for the idea I'm proposing, but it's darn cool! Let me know how it goes!

It went quite well. I had considered the jumping aspect to be a window dressing bonus, but it turned out to be a shining moment of the strength build monk. While raging, I was able to jump 12 feet straight up with step of the wind and grapple a dragon out of the air (20 feet up), bringing him to the ground.

Otherwise the rage resistance does a good job making up for the monk's mediocre AC.

I'd score the build as an 8 on fun, but maybe only a ~6.5 on power level due to the lack of options in combat. I think I'll stick with it as I downtime up to level 5.

[jiriku]

I'd encourage you to also explore your strategies for getting and holding aggro. Several of the classes you're considering in your build stubs have lots of tools in that department, so it shouldn't be too difficult.

Remember that tanking is not about personal survival -- it is about party-wide damage mitigation. if an enemy concludes that it cannot hit you and simply moves on to an easier target, you are not mitigating damage. To effectively tank this enemy, you need to discourage or outright deny its ability to harm your allies.

[Jethro]

I'd encourage you to also explore your strategies for getting and holding aggro. Several of the classes you're considering in your build stubs have lots of tools in that department, so it shouldn't be too difficult.

Remember that tanking is not about personal survival -- it is about party-wide damage mitigation. if an enemy concludes that it cannot hit you and simply moves on to an easier target, you are not mitigating damage. To effectively tank this enemy, you need to discourage or outright deny its ability to harm your allies.

This has actually been my biggest issue with 5e so far; the only thing keeping enemies from running past the front to the back line is opportunity attacks. There's few spells (and none 1st level) that draw aggro as far as I can tell, and few abilities outside of vengence paladins. If you can actually suggest a few ways I'd appreciate it!

[djreynolds]

This has actually been my biggest issue with 5e so far; the only thing keeping enemies from running past the front to the back line is opportunity attacks. There's few spells (and none 1st level) that draw aggro as far as I can tell, and few abilities outside of vengence paladins. If you can actually suggest a few ways I'd appreciate it!

First off, love the thread. Its a cool idea.

The best way to draw agro, IMO, is a recklessly attacking raging barbarian in a banana hammock using GWM.

Because the enemy must deal with this or die, and you want to attack that barbarian

Spells like aid and warding bond can further protect the barbarian and keep him upright

Imagine a wolf barbarian recklessly attacking and raging, giving the champion fighter next to him advantage on all attacks and cleric and bard buffing and healing

Also a fighter with polearm master and sentinel is a nasty adversary.

Sleep and charm are 2 very good 1st level spells that clean out mooks so you can deal with bigger problems.

Also having a high perception check should enable you to at least not get caught with pants down if the DM has prepared a surprise for you.

Cordon of arrows from the ranger is a nice spell, though obviously not a 1st level spell

Entangle

Thunderwave

Faerie fire, good spell to set up over a vulnerable area if you have an archer to punish the enemy trying to pass through. Its a 20ft cube, so the enemy may stop before it if they don't have enough movement to push through, or be stuck there for a round

Grease

Even fog cloud

Its okay to have a few plans among teammates

What is your marching order?

What happens when the DM sets an ambush on the back of that column?

[Citan]

SO...

I was thinking about various builds, interesting things, etc. I was thinking about monks and their features and I realized one of their most powerful Ki abilities isn't Flurry, but the Bonus Action Dodge. So I figured why not create a supreme Dodge Tank. One that can attack while it dodges. I came up with a couple ideas:

Bladesinger 2/Monk X
This is probably the best and simplest of my ideas. Combine unarmored defense with bladesinging AC bonus and even more movement and this can be quite potent potentially. Locks you into a shortsword or dagger as a weapon and elf/half-elf as a build and also likely requires a helm of intelligence to make full use, but if that's not an issue you're looking at AC 20 at 3rd level and 24 at 18th level. Add in 3 spell slots for Shield and plenty of ki for dodging and you have a pretty aggressive defense build.

Druid 2/Monk X
Shillelagh allows early usage of wisdom to be the main attack use, including a higher save DC for stunning strike early. Medium Armor and Shield proficiency becomes the main defense build...that's an AC of 18 to 19 to start, plus Dodge. It loses effectiveness as it goes further, about level 8, once unarmored defense eclipses medium armor. It's not a huge difference from just straight monk. Still an extra 2-3 AC in the first 8 levels can make a HUGE difference, as can an increase in the Stunning Save DC, especially in conjunction with wild shape.

Cleric 1-6/Monk X
One level of cleric optimises the defense with a starting AC of 18-20 (if you can get plate). I'd recommend War Domain, though any with Heavy Armor proficiency is best as 20 AC will be dominant until level 16 (assuming standard array/point buy) when you can max your attributes. Cleric spells help with Armor of Faith (+2 AC - 22 total AC) and extra levels grant Spirit Guardians - kinda the perfect spell for a dodging tank. This one was my first thought, and seems like it could be quite effective...

Fighter 1/Monk X
A fighting style, rapier and heavy armor and shield proficiency leads to better damage output than any of the other builds. Simple 18-20 AC similar to the Cleric above. Not the most elegant, but effective.

Barbarian 1-4/Monk X
Ok, this might be the most effective as a straight tank. First, decide on Barb or Monk Unarmored Defense. Barb gets shield proficiency (meaning 2 higher AC) and WAY more hitpoints. Monk gets a better Stunning Save, eventual damage, and movement speed. If you go Barb, max Dex and Con and use a rapier and shield. If Monk, use Med Armor and Shield until the stats catch up - usually level 8/12. 3-4 levels of Barbarian and you add a totem and an extra rage usage. Can't say I love the build, but talking AC of 22 by the end if taking the Barbarian route along with Rage resistance...

The whole point is to retain attacks while Dodging every round. It's not a damage build, but a very solid Tank one. Ki usage isn't dependent on being unarmored, neither is stunning strike or many of the other subclass options. Though, Open Hand is probably the worst choice, since Flurry won't be happening. Long Death is an obvious choice and Shadow Monk another solid choice, with a ready made escape option. Like all Monk builds it'll take time to come online. If it weren't so dependent on a specific item, the bladesinger build is probably the most effective, providing excellent AC by level 3, otherwise I think the Druid holds the most promise...not the best AC, but it does seem to coincide well with the level rate of the build.

Anyway, what do you all think? Is it practical? Fun? A waste of time

Hi!
Well, to be honest I feel everything except a Barb 4 / Cleric 6 ones are basically "pure Monk with just a trade-off for capstone".
Which is not bad, in fact it's probably the only good way to achieve what you want (Dodging every time).
I somewhat disagree about Long Death Monk: level 6 ability is great for party, but its benefit pertaining yourself would be redundant if you also Dodge.

The only other ways to Dodge and "do something" in a sustainable manner, from what I can recall, would be...
- Sorcerer with Quicken (but with 2 sp per use, it's not really "sustainable", it was obviously thought out for occasional use).
- Rogue archetypes: Thief to use objects such as caltrops, Mastermind to Help others.
- Being Hasted by self or another (so you still get at least one attack), best used on a Paladin or Rogue which can deal sweet single-attack damage.
- Healer feat: but that's up to 1use/ally/rest, so it's not sustainable either.

Basically, pure Monk is the quickest way to achieve your build, but if you want to give a character some special taste any of those options can be worth it.

My own take would be what I basically always suggests for tanks. XD
Nature Cleric 5 / Monk X / Rogue 1 (a bit of Sorcerer if you can afford it and want to play with twin Thorn Whips).
Cast Spirit Guardians, Shove/Grapple (expertise) or Thorn Whip people with your main attack, Dodge as a bonus action. Bonus points for casting Plant Growth around you if your allies don't mind (like you want to hold down alone).
If you don't care about extra speed, you can even go heavy armor and still use the Dodge or Flurry as bonus action (I would still go unarmored personally but at low levels it may be a good trade to ensure you survive).

[JackPhoenix]

This has actually been my biggest issue with 5e so far; the only thing keeping enemies from running past the front to the back line is opportunity attacks. There's few spells (and none 1st level) that draw aggro as far as I can tell, and few abilities outside of vengence paladins. If you can actually suggest a few ways I'd appreciate it!

Which is good. Forced aggro is one of the best ways to break immersion in TTRPGs. Even in vanilla WoW, Nefarian has told his minions to ignore the tanks and kill the ones in robes instead (now that was some bad guy, not what the game has today).

Sentinel. Grapple the enemies. Battlefield terrain manipulation. Proper group positioning making reaching ranged characters and spellcasters non-viable. Just having the frontliners threatening enough that the foe just can't ignore them. Hell, even taunting through roleplaying instead of hard-coded taunt abilities.

[Easy_Lee]

The thing about tanking is that if you come from an MMO, tanking in D&D is not the same. Casters, especially abjurer wizards, are better at mitigating party damage than martials. A life cleric / lore hard in particular can wear plate, support the party, and keep everyone alive.

Fighters and barbarians aren't good at those things. They deal high damage and are likely to survive being ambushed or breathed on by a dragon. The "tankier" builds are merely able to survive more rounds of attacks.

Dodge tanking doesn't add much to the party because the enemy has no reason to attack you.

[Citan]

The thing about tanking is that if you come from an MMO, tanking in D&D is not the same. Casters, especially abjurer wizards, are better at mitigating party damage than martials. A life cleric / lore hard in particular can wear plate, support the party, and keep everyone alive.

Fighters and barbarians aren't good at those things. They deal high damage and are likely to survive being ambushed or breathed on by a dragon. The "tankier" builds are merely able to survive more rounds of attacks.

Dodge tanking doesn't add much to the party because the enemy has no reason to attack you.

This is the kind of shortcut I wouldn't have expected from you. :/

Why wouldn't enemies attack him if he...
- is grappling a key character of them (Barbarian, Monk, EK)?
- preventing them to move because they know now that he can void movement (Sentinel)?
- concentrating on a nasty effect (Cleric, EK, Valor Bard)?

Or, very simply, is the only one available in reach? Consider one or several melee creatures currently engaged with that dodging tank.
Between...
- Disengaging then just move towards others without getting close enough to make a thrown/melee attack?
- Dashing to reach other enemies, risking a potentially dangerous OA in the process?
- Using Multiattack to try and deal damage to him anyways (or Shove him prone, nullyfying the effect of Dodge)...
Which do you think a creature would choose? When all choices are lackluster you usually try and pick the one that still has the best chance to give you some value.

For a lone creature, the first choice is plain stupid. The second choice would be a good one if the creature can Dash and still make a decisive action like downing an enemy (because it could Dash with a bonus action, or do something relevant with a bonus action),or if just putting an enemy within its own OA area would help controlling the encounter. Otherwise, staying there and attacking has the most chance to contribute something to the fight.

Of course, that evaluation could change much with several allies in melee against the same tank, depending on each one's ranged capability (if any) and resilience: one could sacrifice himself on the OA so the others move freely, or all could gang up...

Matter of fact is: while I certainly don't remember all block stats of all creatures in the MM, from what I know, flying creatures aside very rare are the creatures having more than 30, maybe 40 feet of movement.
While *most* casters (hello Druid's Produce Flame XD) and martials (hello STR martial without Sharpshooter) have ways to shoot at least from a 60 feet distance, very often between 90-120 and for the specialized ones more than 200 feet away.
Not even including all spells that a caster could use to tailor the environment and limit/break enemy movement or aim (Web, Plant Growth, Darkness, Walls, etc).

So unless the whole player party is brainless or 100% non-Rogue/Monk martials, or the DM's creatures are especially adept at tactics, creating situations in which hitting the dodging tank is the best option for melee enemies should not be that hard.

[Easy_Lee]

A multiclass character invested in dodge and tank tactics is likely a less attractive target than other party members. That's why the barbarian and abjurer wizard make effective tanks - creatures can't kill either easily, but would really like to because of what they're doing.

Of those two, the wizard is a better tank in more situations because the wizard is useful in more situations. The barbarian might be out of range, fall down a hole, or fail a wisdom saving throw. The abjurer wizard is proficient with wisdom saving throws, has ways to mitigate dexterity saving throws, has multiple ranges, can cast spells to defend the entire party, and has ways to mitigate most other hazards. He only needs to worry about constitution saving throws. And a lot of wizards pick up resilient constitution.

Grapple tanks suffer the same problem as all other melee tanks - you can't be adjacent to multiple enemies at once unless they clump. Good luck defending the party from archers, or a giant backed up by a wizard. The abjurer wizard, meanwhile, can cast wall of force for the first situation. For the second, he can hypnotic pattern multiple giants and Counterspell another caster in the same round.

If you want to defend your allies, you don't play a melee character. If you do, at least make it a PM Sentinel so you can control a wider area, or a thief rogue so you can use Healer and a healing kit to bring up to two people back to fighting condition when they go down.

[Citan]

A multiclass character invested in dodge and tank tactics is likely a less attractive target than other party members. That's why the barbarian and abjurer wizard make effective tanks - creatures can't kill either easily, but would really like to because of what they're doing.

If you want to defend your allies, you don't play a melee character. If you do, at least make it a PM Sentinel so you can control a wider area, or a thief rogue so you can use Healer and a healing kit to bring up to two people back to fighting condition when they go down.

Impressive how you pigeonhole a concept ("dodging tank") into only the things yourself know how / like to play to try and stand a shallow ground.

Sure, Grapple won't be good enough by itself. But nor is Sentinel. Both allow you to keep at most one creature at bay. So both are just two among very many tools available to someone that wants to keep aggro.

Didn't you ever pay attention to all those threads asking about how to tank though? I guess not, because you would have noticed that I have been the first one arguing against Barbarian as being the best tank. Anyways...

The ranged threat is indeed a very real one, but I daresay that's up to the backline people themselves to take care of. Between non-concentration spells and concentration spells, and the fact casters are usually 100% able even at 60 feet or 90 feet distance from the front line, there should be always a way to break line of sight or provide pretty good cover (behind which you can crouch/prone for full cover or at least disadvantage on attacks).

So the main problem is preventing people to get past you. or making them lesser threats to your friends. Good thing is, once you get multiclass into play, there are lots and lots of great things to do.

Even single class: how come you quote Barbarian, but not Monk? Long Death impose disadvantage on attacks, Open Hand can prone/stun up to four
people, 4E can (at higher level) erect a protective wall so casters can concentrate on something else...
Why would people try to kill it? Well, maybe because of his ability to greatly reduce offense of people in general?

And what about Cleric? Take a Spirit Guardians on top of a heavy armor and shield, using Dodge or occasional cantrip or attack to pull/prone/disable/grapple an enemy.
Why kill it? Well, nobody likes someone healing enemies we just downed right?

What about EK? Eldricht Strike cast a mass debuff like Slow then use Dodge when too many people around, or resume hacking away otherwise, using Shield in critical times.
Why kill it? Well, because he is currently wasting the group with that concentration spell, so landing a hit is the best chance at evening odds?

What about a Ranger? With no effect from non-magical movement, he can easily keep people at bay by grappling/proning enemies in the field of a Plant Growth.
Why kill him? Well, maybe because he also conjured animals, or he would otherwise spend some quality time sniping away friendly caster for example?

What about Paladins, especially Crown (Channel Divinity) or Ancients (Moonbeam), that boast impressive base defense plus some great control spells (some smite, Command, Compelled Duel)?
Why kill it? Well, maybe because we just saw that Paladin down one of our Giant with some kind of flashy sword strike? We don't understand how he did it, but he sure packs a punch!

Same with a Land Druid with a single level dip in Life Cleric (same tactic as Ranger, except with Thorns Whip as additional option).
Why kill it? Maybe because of that Wind Wall that protects the back row casters, or that Wall of Fire currently dividing our group, or just because of all these pesky wolves, bears and scorpions that appeared suddenly to bite our asses?

With multiclass, even a plain Sorcerer with 2 levels of Fighter (or a level of Cleric with heavy armor) could make a pretty potent off-tank with Distant, Careful and Quicken ("off" because obviously due to high SP consumption you cannot sustain this over a day): Slow, Stinking Cloud, Wall of Fire, Eyebite, Reverse Gravity, Hold/Dominate X or currently charging Delayed Blast Fireball should be incentives enough to increase his priority level.

Seriously, your point is moot: Dodge makes you harder to hit, so reduces your overall "attractiveness".
So what? It just has to be compensated at the party level by...
- Also reducing allies's attractiveness (hidden/invisible/behind cover/out of range/visibly buffed)...
- While increasing your own with other ways (easily reachable/dangerous attacks/concentrating on a big spell/only one in sight).

Let me stress on that: at the party level.
Because while you can perfectly well build a character that can tank all by himself with only his own features, this is a teamwork thing, your pals are supposed to help you be good at what you do which, in this case, is tanking. Especially the casters that have environmental spells.
Exactly like a Cleric is usually expected to Warding Bond the one guy that volunteers to hold the line, or Bless that Sharpshooter, or like a Battlemaster would usually use Commander's Strike when a Rogue or Paladin with slots is in a good position to strike...

Otherwise, if you don't define your tactics and use your abilities while keeping in mind each one's fortes and weakness and how to strenghten the first and lessen the latter, what is the point of sticking together?

---
The only real problem with a dodging tank is the action economy of the "dodging" part because, unless you take Monk or Sorcerer, which both rely on a limited resource, using Dodge in a turn costs you much in terms of efficiency because it uses your action.
But even then, as long as the party keeps this in mind and acts on this basis, it can be worth.

[Jethro]

Of those two [barbarian and abjurer wizard], the wizard is a better tank in more situations because the wizard is useful in more situations. The barbarian might be out of range, fall down a hole, or fail a wisdom saving throw. The abjurer wizard is proficient with wisdom saving throws, has ways to mitigate dexterity saving throws, has multiple ranges, can cast spells to defend the entire party, and has ways to mitigate most other hazards. He only needs to worry about constitution saving throws. And a lot of wizards pick up resilient constitution.

Grapple tanks suffer the same problem as all other melee tanks - you can't be adjacent to multiple enemies at once unless they clump. Good luck defending the party from archers, or a giant backed up by a wizard. The abjurer wizard, meanwhile, can cast wall of force for the first situation. For the second, he can hypnotic pattern multiple giants and Counterspell another caster in the same round.

If you want to defend your allies, you don't play a melee character. If you do, at least make it a PM Sentinel so you can control a wider area, or a thief rogue so you can use Healer and a healing kit to bring up to two people back to fighting condition when they go down.

So maybe we can assume that the party consists of more than just one player? Not trying to be snarky about it, but the thread isn't a debate on who the BEST tank would be or Melee vs Spell Caster. It's really about designing a dodging tank that can compete effectively and maybe even rival other melee tanks. Spell casters are great and versatile and wall of force is damn impressive as a spell, but it's not like they want to be between their party and the enemy. Ideally some big meat shield is between them and the enemy so they can control the enemy from the safety of distance.

You do bring up some important talents of tanks though - good saving throws in Wis and Dex, good to excellent AC, ways to control the enemy. Of all the Melee classes, Monk is the only one that has ALL of these skills built in...with the possible exception of the high AC, at least early on. Hence the attempt to multiclass and find a way to improve that early on. While 5e tanks don't operate like MMO's, they can still fill a vital role for the party. That doesn't mean it's a role that is essential for every party, but every party can benefit from it.

First off, love the thread. Its a cool idea.

Thanks!

The only other ways to Dodge and "do something" in a sustainable manner, from what I can recall, would be...
- Sorcerer with Quicken (but with 2 sp per use, it's not really "sustainable", it was obviously thought out for occasional use).
- Rogue archetypes: Thief to use objects such as caltrops, Mastermind to Help others.
- Being Hasted by self or another (so you still get at least one attack), best used on a Paladin or Rogue which can deal sweet single-attack damage.
- Healer feat: but that's up to 1use/ally/rest, so it's not sustainable either.

I love the Thief idea best out of these. And I think you're right 19 levels of Monk is the way to go with a 1-2 level dip for early level survival...I've seen defensive dualist used to some success too. I agree the barb 4/ cleric 6 builds are probably best...for high levels...but I don't know/think they'd hold up very well (or at least be fun) till levels 9 or 10. A little late to come on line IMO...still if the barb and cleric levels are the last levels taken it might be worth it...

Appreciate the ideas guys! Definitely has helped me refine my ideas!

[Potato_Priest]

If unearthed arcana is allowed, you should look into the possibility of playing a dwarf (hill in particular). The unearthed arcana feats for races has a feat called dwarf resilience that lets you spend hit die to heal when you dodge.

[Easy_Lee]

I'm not trying to hurt any feelings here. I just want to make sure that nobody expects more out of a dodge tank than they're going to get. I don't want people to think this build is better than it is, then be disappointed in play.

The main problem: Ki points are limited, and monks have other good uses for their Ki. Dodging every round plays against the monk's strengths.

Can you afford to dodge every round as a bonus action? By level five, maybe so, as long as you get frequent short rests to replenish that ki. But why would anything want to hit you?

You can't grapple everything. Not everything will be close enough for you to hit. Not everything will be susceptible to stunning strike. And not everything cares about your AC or saving throws. Some creatures just hit very hard with little way around it. As a matter of fact, that kind of creature is common. And sometimes they're going to hit your allies and ignore you, because you're dodging.

Monk are easier to ignore than most other classes. They don't do as much damage as a rogue, fighter, barbarian, or even ranger. And they don't create the same effects as a caster. They have stunning strike. That's their niche. They're mobile, hard to lock down, and very good at delivering stunning strikes to vulnerable targets. The whole class is built around that concept.

Every ki you spend dodging is ki you didn't spend stunning 's target. This is how monks "tank": they stun enemies so those enemies can't hurt the monk's allies.

Here's a dodge tank for you: Arcane Trickster rogue with War Caster and Booming Blade. Concentrate on something useful, then Dodge. If your target tries to run past, it risks taking a bunch of damage from SA + BB. Eventually, you can Haste yourself so you can get SA twice per turn. Even if you get hit, you can halve the damage with your reaction. And if the targets are too far away, you can bonus action hide behind cover then pick them off with SA shortbow shots.

Notably, you can do the same thing with Sentinel on other kinds of rogue. Thief rogues can fast hands heal an ally with the Healer feat, then dodge afterward. They have the extra ASIs and the SADness to take two feats easily. Stand next to an ally and you can continously bring that ally back up from unconscious, all while attacking the enemy who keeps hitting him.

Notice how these concepts emphasizes what the rogue is already good at. Sentinel allows the rogue to still get SA. Dodge increases the likelihood that if he is hit, it will only be once that round. Uncanny Dodge halves the damage of one attack, which if it came from the boss might mean your whole party took half as much damage that round.

A dodging monk can still act, but gives up attacks and precious Ki to do so. That's a trade-off. An rogue can do the same thing with a much less costly trade-off and potentially a greater reward.

Bonus action dodge on monks is there for when your back is against the rope. It's not something you build a character around.

[djreynolds]

Question

A hill dwarf fighter, with the new dwarven resilience feat, tunnel fighter, PAM, shillelagh, quarterstaff.

He could dodge as his/her action and just live on reaction attacks

[Jethro]

I'm not trying to hurt any feelings here. I just want to make sure that nobody expects more out of a dodge tank than they're going to get. I don't want people to think this build is better than it is, then be disappointed in play.

The main problem: Ki points are limited, and monks have other good uses for their Ki. Dodging every round plays against the monk's strengths.

Can you afford to dodge every round as a bonus action? By level five, maybe so, as long as you get frequent short rests to replenish that ki. But why would anything want to hit you?

You can't grapple everything. Not everything will be close enough for you to hit. Not everything will be susceptible to stunning strike. And not everything cares about your AC or saving throws. Some creatures just hit very hard with little way around it. As a matter of fact, that kind of creature is common. And sometimes they're going to hit your allies and ignore you, because you're dodging.

Monk are easier to ignore than most other classes. They don't do as much damage as a rogue, fighter, barbarian, or even ranger. And they don't create the same effects as a caster. They have stunning strike. That's their niche. They're mobile, hard to lock down, and very good at delivering stunning strikes to vulnerable targets. The whole class is built around that concept.

Every ki you spend dodging is ki you didn't spend stunning 's target. This is how monks "tank": they stun enemies so those enemies can't hurt the monk's allies.

Here's a dodge tank for you: Arcane Trickster rogue with War Caster and Booming Blade. Concentrate on something useful, then Dodge. If your target tries to run past, it risks taking a bunch of damage from SA + BB. Eventually, you can Haste yourself so you can get SA twice per turn. Even if you get hit, you can halve the damage with your reaction. And if the targets are too far away, you can bonus action hide behind cover then pick them off with SA shortbow shots.

Notably, you can do the same thing with Sentinel on other kinds of rogue. Thief rogues can fast hands heal an ally with the Healer feat, then dodge afterward. They have the extra ASIs and the SADness to take two feats easily. Stand next to an ally and you can continously bring that ally back up from unconscious, all while attacking the enemy who keeps hitting him.

Notice how these concepts emphasizes what the rogue is already good at. Sentinel allows the rogue to still get SA. Dodge increases the likelihood that if he is hit, it will only be once that round. Uncanny Dodge halves the damage of one attack, which if it came from the boss might mean your whole party took half as much damage that round.

A dodging monk can still act, but gives up attacks and precious Ki to do so. That's a trade-off. An rogue can do the same thing with a much less costly trade-off and potentially a greater reward.

Bonus action dodge on monks is there for when your back is against the rope. It's not something you build a character around.

No offense taken!

Honest and constructive criticism is extremely appreciated!

Let's be real, a dodge centric monk is never the most ideal of monks...but where's the fun in that?! That said I think it can still be useful, maybe not ideal, but useful still. I can't disagree with any of your sentiments about the builds inefficiency, but let's not forget - it's not like it can't act like a normal monk either As always combat plans are only good till they are not and if dodging doesn't work, move on to plan B.

Your rogue build is another very good one. I like it quite a bit! It is reliant on OA's to provide damage, but that's not an unreasonable usage. Add in thief quick reflexes and it becomes quite useful, dropping caltrops or healing teammates. Haste is real effective with this build...I'd personally add 2 levels of Bladesinger to start for the extra AC , combined with Arcane Trickster could be quite effective - 3rd level spells (Haste!) by level 11...does take some work getting advantage for sneak attack, by level 15 the mage hand distraction works and i suppose familiars work in much the same way... I like it!

[Citan]

I'm not trying to hurt any feelings here. I just want to make sure that nobody expects more out of a dodge tank than they're going to get. I don't want people to think this build is better than it is, then be disappointed in play.

The main problem: Ki points are limited, and monks have other good uses for their Ki. Dodging every round plays against the monk's strengths.

That I perfectly agree with. ;)

But see it another way: as a (nearly) pure Monk, you will end with enough Ki to keep at least 5 points for Dodging in an encounter, or even half if your only other use is Stunning Strike. So it can really be not a problem, you just adapt your tactics to keep enough Dodge-ki to your taste (after all, it's your character, so your decisions).
As a multiclass Monk, your offense should not rely primarily on Ki-cost abilities. So it's not a problem either.

Hence my example of (Nature) Cleric / Monk: at level 10 (5/5), you can just keep Spirit Guardians active, and either Dodge as a bonus action while using Extra Attack to grapple/shove or Thorns Whip to pull, or just Dodge as an action while using the bonus action on a Healing Words or Spiritual Weapon if you go all-out for a fight. Your damage is taken care of by Spirit Guardians, as well as your threat level (obviously the creatures inside will rather try to break your concentration than move away if they don't have enough movement to go out of the AOE.

To take your example of an Arcane Trickster, as any Rogue his big problem is having several people around, 'cause Uncanny Dodge works against only one attack (plus it takes a reaction that could be used on a Sneak Attack OA). And pulling away or hiding is not always an option.
Here, pairing Rogue with a few levels of Monk is easy enough (you want decent WIS anyways) and gives you a few Dodge as bonus action per short rest (because you won't use Stunning Strike anyways).

In fact, any class would really benefit from Monk abilities, but, same as Sorcerer, you would usually want a decent pool of resources (4+ points) to avoid frustration (Monk even more than Sorcerer since you cannot even convert something else into ki), so most people won't do it because too much a pain to level (plus potential heavy loss on high-level abilities).

For a character bootstrapping at level 6, I'd see very well a Monk 2 / Cleric 1 / Arcane Trickster 3: added movement and bonus action weapon attack (although no SA), self Shield of Faith/Healing Words, Guidance + Sacred Flame (and maybe Thorns Whip) and Dodge 2 times per short rest feel like a worthy trade for +1d6 and Uncanny Dodge.

A potent theorycraft character could also be Arcane Trickster 9-10-11 / (Nature/Tempest) Cleric 5-6 / Monk 5-6, mixing all the goodies in one great bag (Spirit Guardians + Spiritual Weapon + Shield/Uncanny Dodge + high Unarmored AC + Dodge as bonus action + Evasion) or Swash/Thief Rogue 9 / Lore Bard 6 (Magic Secrets) / Monk 5 to achieve roughly the same effect but on a CHA base.

Even a Crown Paladin could really use a few levels (although obviously you won't see for real because of MADness): cast Compelled Duel, use your CD, then turtle up. :)

TL;DR: on a multiclass character, considering the Monk as just a mobility/defense boost that spends all Ki on Dodge is a perfectly viable option.

As for that...

Can you afford to dodge every round as a bonus action? By level five, maybe so, as long as you get frequent short rests to replenish that ki. But why would anything want to hit you?

I just gave you plenty of examples in the previous post. ;) As long as, whatever way you use, you make easy for enemies to understand you are a potent threat and an easier to reach than others, they will target you rather than others.

Besides, as I also tried to illustrate in the previous point, Dodge is not a sure-way to avoid danger either. Any smart enemy group that wants to target you rather than others (confer previous point) but is annoyed by Dodge should have many counters available: the simplest is obviously to Grapple you or Shove you prone (Dodge don't impose disadvantage on STR/DEX checks, Grapple sets speed to 0 so ends Dodge advantage, being prone gives advantage to attackers to cancel the disadvantage), use attacks with riders if any, or use spells that impose a condition such as prone/blind/restrained/stunned etc... The first option is available on any creature, the two others should become a fairly common occurence with CR3+ creatures.

Dodge is just like Mirror Image/Blur/Shield and the like: it's dissuasive, but only up to a point.