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2017-10-02, 03:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XIV: The Emperor Floats Those Who Float Themselves
Why do we have a fluff thread and a tabletop thread? Well, because, to put it bluntly, arguments about fluff can take up a lot of space. And that makes it hard for people to get critiques on their list. So, if you need to find out what's a good color scheme for your custom Dark Angels Successor chapter, Argue the morality of the setting yet again (Oh, how we wish you wouldn't), or even share fluff you've written for your army, here's the place.
Just remember, in the Grim Darkness of the far future, there is only pointless bickering!
Previous Threads
I: Warning: No Fanboys Allowed ()
II: Heresy Grown From Idleness
III: You're Emprah? Well I didn't vote for you!
IV: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion IV
V: WARNING: May Contain Heresy
VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
VII: There's A Codex Entry For That
VIII: Khorne's Most Favourite Thread EVER
IX: Post-Human Centipede
X: Yippe Ki-Yay, Heretic!
XI: Juggling Idiot Balls
XII: DIS FINGY GOT NO SQUIGZ IN IT
XIII: You Must Smash Additional Pylons!
Last time in the Fluff Thread: Wishing for plastic Sisters of Battle. And arguing over whether or not they should get the Primaris treatment, for some reason.Last edited by Renegade Paladin; 2017-10-02 at 03:15 PM.
"Courage is the complement of fear. A fearless man cannot be courageous. He is also a fool." -- Robert Heinlein
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2017-10-02, 03:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XIV: The Emperor Floats Those Who Float Themselves
I love how absolutely obscure our title reference is.
Anyways, how much is each codex 'advancing' the plot? Because I do notice a bunch of stuff happening in each one, in regards to how things have changed.Spoiler: I'm a writer!Spoiler: Check out my fanfiction[URL="https://www.fanfiction.net/u/7493788/Forum-Explorer"here[/URL]
]Fate Stay Nano: Fate Stay Night x Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha
I Fell in Love with a Storm: MLP
Procrastination: MLP
Spoiler: Original FictionThe Lost Dragon: A story about a priest who finds a baby dragon in his church and decides to protect them.
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2017-10-02, 03:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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2017-10-02, 03:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XIV: The Emperor Floats Those Who Float Themselves
Because it takes the Sister of Battle's fluff and drags it out back, by the hair, and slowly shoots it to death with a minimum powered las pistol, starting with its feet and working up.
No, no, no, no. You are so many kinds of wrong. Sisters of Battle are not gene modded. Ever. They find the entire process to be abhorrent and would probably shoot you for even suggesting it. To put it in context, they refer to Space Marines as abhumans. Think about that for a second
Sisters will get Bionics, extremely valuable Sisters may get rejuvenation treatments, a Sister plagued with a (non Chaos) disease that causes her muscle mass to be seriously damaged will have vat grown muscle surgically attached, but they will not, under any circumstances, allow themselves to be genetically modified.
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2017-10-02, 04:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XIV: The Emperor Floats Those Who Float Themselves
Because it takes the Sister of Battle's fluff and drags it out back, by the hair, and slowly shoots it to death with a minimum powered las pistol, starting with its feet and working up.
It does for that matter not make to much sense that they look down on the Space Marines almost everyone else in the empire more or less revere as the Emperors Angels of Death.thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2017-10-02, 04:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XIV: The Emperor Floats Those Who Float Themselves
I mean, you could... go read the fluff? Before you talk about sweeping modifications?
One of the main tenets of the Sisters (and the Eclisiarchy in general) is that the human form is Holy. This why you'll often hear them shouting about "Purity". Mutants are bad, xenos are worse, abhumans are "tolerated" as third-class citizens only because they're stable and sometimes useful (and most Eclisiarchs would prefer to just burn them all if the Administratum would let them). Another main tenet is that the Emperor is literally God, omniscience and perfect, and he made us and walked among and we must have faith in his plan even when everything is on fire. The Space Marines break both of these tenets: they are Superhuman/Posthuman, and revere the Emperor as merely the greatest of all men.
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2017-10-02, 04:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XIV: The Emperor Floats Those Who Float Themselves
Its simple, Space Marines arent human. Full Stop. Then combine in the fact that over half turned traitor and now they hate them and dont trust them. The only thing stopping them from out and out trying to kill them is the fact that they where made by the Emperor, so they deal with it.
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2017-10-02, 04:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XIV: The Emperor Floats Those Who Float Themselves
They also view marines with contempt for allowing psykers in their ranks.
Sanity is nice to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.
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2017-10-02, 04:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XIV: The Emperor Floats Those Who Float Themselves
Have you made any effort at all to look beyond the most cursory examination?
As others have said, their big deal is purity (not that kind, our nuns are different). Humans are the greatest thing ever and you can't make them better by fiddling around and changing what makes people human because then they aren't human anymore. See Astartes for the premier in universe example, they even refer to themselves as transhuman and repeatedly aknowledge that not only are they ex-humans, but that they're so far removed from humanity that it causes problems on occassion. The only reason it's OK is that the Emperor did it and, since he's the Emperor, it's OK for him to tamper because he'sathe God. Now, like most religious positions, this is not quite as well thought out as it could be, but that's their thing.
Then there's the whole totally-not-the-ecclessiarchy's-private-army-at-all-no-sir thing they have after being expressly forbidden to have "men under arms" after the last 'bout of crazy that happened, some RAW is law rules lawyer decided that if he simply kept the girls in their bodyguard positions, then technically, the ecclessiarchy wouldn't be breaking the law. The rest of the imperium just sort of sighed, admitted it was actually kinda funny (and better than having all the male soldiers underarms removed) and let them go about their business.
There's the various orders (both military and civilian), the various uses for the various orders (more times is spent intimidating locals into either behaving themselves or paying up their tithes than fighting), advising govenors and such, being a figurehead and morale booster, the ties to the schola, the research done by the non-military orders, connections with the Inquisition, correcting wayward behaviour of various members of the ecclessiarchy, the list goes on.
Saying "lol, is there even more to SOB than being Nuns with Guns?" is like saying that spess muhreens have no backstory, 'nids are zerg knockoffs, there's no difference between DE and vanilla eldar, tau are the unequivocablly the "good guys" and the inquisition exterminatus every planet they come across. It's a combination of blatant ignorance of the setting and just being flat out wrong.
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2017-10-02, 06:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XIV: The Emperor Floats Those Who Float Themselves
See, if GW actually progressed their timeline, that's what would happen; 'You can't have Guilliman in an army that includes any <Renegades>. Regardless of other Keywords.' Cawl would have a <Renegade> Keyword. Similar to how Cypher has <Imperium> and <Chaos>.
I smiled so bigly in Shield of Baal where Grace just shoots ranking Cultists from the top down until she gets a native who's willing to deal with her (after he sees everyone else in the line get shot for Heresy). But Curze was wrong...Right?
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2017-10-02, 07:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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2017-10-02, 07:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XIV: The Emperor Floats Those Who Float Themselves
The stars predict tomorrow you'll wake up, do a bunch of stuff, and then go back to sleep.~ That's your horoscope for today.
01001110011001010111001001100100
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2017-10-02, 07:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XIV: The Emperor Floats Those Who Float Themselves
The emprah declared it. You dare question the emprah's words?
This is that Grace you speak of seems well on her own way to heresy as far as the emprah is concerned.
Liked when Magnus tried to warn daddy of the incoming rebellion, the emprah didn't care about said priceless intel given for almost free. The emprah simply ordered the thousand sons to be curbstomped.
That is false. There's plenty of spech merines quotes addressing the emprah as their god. They believe that when they die the emprah will guide their souls and they'll get to sit at his right side in the afterlife. And they follow the dogmas the emprah left with such fervor to make the most devout eclesiarchs weep with envy.
Or what, mister posthuman couldn't develop a significantly better wargear or vehicle chassis after 10 000 years? It's like claiming our modern commandos fight clad in the finest raw fur coats and master crafted wooden spears. But the emprah ordered them to use that design of power armor and bolter, and the spuch merines obeyed with no question for ten millenia when they could've used their posthuman brains to develop something-anything multiple levels above.Last edited by deuterio12; 2017-10-02 at 08:05 PM.
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2017-10-02, 08:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XIV: The Emperor Floats Those Who Float Themselves
Usually it's their mere presence that ensures compliance, but when all else fails, if you're not obeying the ecclessiarchy, you're not obeying the Emperor, and that's
as many as 4 tensterrible.
Also, what's the old saying? If it's stupid and it works, it's not stupid.
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2017-10-02, 08:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XIV: The Emperor Floats Those Who Float Themselves
Yes yes, the entire Echlisearchy is heretical in Bigs Es eyes, we know.
And wrong. Big E just told Russ to go watch Magnus, like he was under house arrest. Tzeentch garbled the message so Russ would burn the place to the ground.
Theres a few Chapters that do worship Big E as a god, but the vast majority just consider him the pinnacle of what it means to be human.
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2017-10-02, 08:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XIV: The Emperor Floats Those Who Float Themselves
Liked when Magnus tried to warn daddy of the incoming rebellion, the emprah didn't care about said priceless intel given for almost free. The emprah simply ordered the thousand sons to be curbstomped.
Or what, mister posthuman couldn't develop a significantly better wargear or vehicle chassis after 10 000 years? It's like claiming our modern commandos fight clad in the finest raw fur coats and master crafted wooden spears. But the emprah ordered them to use that design of power armor and bolter, and the spuch merines obeyed with no question for ten millenia when they could've used their posthuman brains to develop something-anything multiple levels above.
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2017-10-02, 08:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XIV: The Emperor Floats Those Who Float Themselves
It gets worse once you realize that Space Marine's arent necessarily any smarter than anyone else, they arent really designed to be. Space Marines are optimized for one thing, fighting humans and (to a lesser extent) xenos. Thats it. You want new tech, talk to the tech priests, you know, the guys who replace half their brain with computers?
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2017-10-02, 08:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XIV: The Emperor Floats Those Who Float Themselves
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2017-10-02, 09:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XIV: The Emperor Floats Those Who Float Themselves
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2017-10-02, 10:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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2017-10-02, 10:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XIV: The Emperor Floats Those Who Float Themselves
Subject Matter > 1d4chan/TTS > Audience.
Now, I'm not saying that people who watch TTS don't read books. I've watched the occasional episode, also having read a bunch of books. To me, sometimes, TTS is funny, because I have context for the joke that is happening. TTS has to have read the source material, otherwise they wouldn't be funny at all. "It comes from a place of love, not hate." There's no way that you could do what that show (channel?) does, without having devoured almost everything you could get your hands on.
Unfortunately, I know for a fact that there are people who watch TTS or read 1d4chan instead of reading books. There's no context for what actually happened. There's no understanding of events, actions, beliefs or character studies (and if there is...Gross over-simplifcations). There's is only gross over-simplifications of events, and memes, because that is what those mediums are for. Suddenly you have a disconnect between Subject Matter and Audience per the flowchart above.
So, when you start saying 'Adepta Sororitas' and 'Sisters of Battle' are not interchangeable terms, like 'AA' and 'Space Marines', are. Maybe things are getting over your head, and the memes no longer cut it in a big boy discussion (about toy soliders).
Grace didn't execute all the Heretics. Only some. What do you think that's about? Maybe the Imperium doesn't go around purging things left-and-right like the memes say they do?
Maybe there's more to them, that 'making them Primaris' would completely ruin; The majority of the time, they're peacekeepers, not warriors. Nominally, they're Ordo Hereticus, means dealing with The Enemy Within (i.e; other humans), not The Enemy Without or Beyond. There are three other sections of the Adepta Sororitas that 'Sisters of Battle' are intertwined with - not separate from - that are non-combat roles - actual nuns, in tent hospitals and everything - because their job is to interact - not necessarily fight - on a human level. At best you could 'Robocop' the Sisters, take chunks out of their bodies and then replace the bits with cyborg parts. But then you've just made Skitarii. Which actually goes into a second point...
You don't make 'Primaris Sisters' (and then grossly simplify them to 'female Space Marines'. Is anyone thinking that Saint Celestine is just 'female Guilliman'?) for the same reason you actually have to give Necrons personality. The setting already has Tyranids - and to a lesser extent, Orks. What good are soul-less beings that can't be reasoned with, bringing to the setting? Nothing.
The setting already has Primaris Marines - and with the exception of Cawl's dubiousness - they're pretty boring. What are Primaris Sisters going to offer the setting? Nothing. Don't do it. It's a bad idea.
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2017-10-03, 12:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XIV: The Emperor Floats Those Who Float Themselves
Now, of course, that could be an interesting development; Cawl or others misguidedly attempting, in universe, to do just that, and either failing for the same reasons the Emperor did, or not even getting to try due to massive outrage from the parties involved.
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2017-10-03, 01:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XIV: The Emperor Floats Those Who Float Themselves
No, no, no.... What the story of Curze proves is that his methods are fast and reliable BUT they require repeated and persistent reinforcement.
Nostromo was a criminal dump. Curze turned it into a law-abiding dump. Curze went on Crusade. Nostromo turned back into a criminal dump when, and ONLY when, he was absent. And as soon as he got back, he 'fixed' that little problem.
That's what you should take away from the story of the Night Haunter; that he was right, but he was too soft on people for his own good.
Originally Posted by Cheesegear
Plastic Sisters are an untapped goldmine waiting to happen, if only to grab at that nostalgia dollar. GW has all the time in the world to resculpt all of the 'current' units - Battle Sisters, Repentia, Penitent Engines and the rest - and sell all of them until people get bored, and THAT is when they unleash Primaris Sisters. Just like they did with Space and Primaris Marines.
You don't give your audience everything all at once; you give them a little bit, and then a little bit more later one, to eke out the experience. A good shepherd doesn't rip the entire skin off'f his flock all at once, after all, and if there's one thing I know about GW's customers is that calling us "sheep-like" is often on the generous side.....~ CAUTION: May Contain Weasels ~
RPG Characters What I Done Played As (Explained Badly)
17 Things I Learned About 40k By Playing Dark Heresy
Tales of a Role-Play Gamer - Horrible Optimisation
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2017-10-03, 01:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XIV: The Emperor Floats Those Who Float Themselves
okay this is a stupid question but can any one explain to me how nuns of battle get their training from bottom to up since wiki has no info about what the f they got as augmentations or not but considering they are equivalent to space marines. sisters of emperor must have some thing added to their bodies with their faith acting as way to stabilize the procedure. do you guys know any books showing sisters of battles journey full sisterhood?
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2017-10-03, 02:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XIV: The Emperor Floats Those Who Float Themselves
A source? Nothing jumps to mind when it comes to the details of a Sister's full training.
But they aren't equivalent to Space Marines. At all. Ever. Fluff wise, Space Marines are tougher, faster, stronger, have poisonous blood, can spit venom, going into hibernation, survive the vacuum of space without equipment, can heal from almost any wound, have redundant organs, some other stuff I'm forgetting, and in additional to all that, some extra stuff depending on the Chapter.
Sisters of Battle are human. Flat out, they are just ordinary humans. Well trained, and well equipped. And with a fanatical devotion to the Emperor, but in every other regard they are completely ordinary.Spoiler: I'm a writer!Spoiler: Check out my fanfiction[URL="https://www.fanfiction.net/u/7493788/Forum-Explorer"here[/URL]
]Fate Stay Nano: Fate Stay Night x Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha
I Fell in Love with a Storm: MLP
Procrastination: MLP
Spoiler: Original FictionThe Lost Dragon: A story about a priest who finds a baby dragon in his church and decides to protect them.
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2017-10-03, 02:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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2017-10-03, 02:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XIV: The Emperor Floats Those Who Float Themselves
They don't get augmented, they're not equal to space marines (they wear a lighter version of power armour and their default weapon is a bolter, that's about where the similarities end) and they go through similar training that most military forces go though (but with more focus on faith in the immortal god emperor and the general beliefs of the ecclessiarchy), though they're picked out at a young age and specifically tested to see which of the various branches of the Sororitas they would fit into (if any). The more military minded girls end up becoming sisters of battle while the more civic minded skillsets go to one of the non-combat arms (order dialogous, sisters hospitallier, etc) while scrubs get a boring life as a paper pusher somewhere. It is possible for the inquisition to take an interest in them too and they generally take priority (because inquisition, duh). I'll quote directly from their 6th ed codex:
Originally Posted by Adepta Sororitas Codex Pg 2youeveryone should get 'cause it's pretty awesome anyway). There's not that much literature on the sisters and even less on the non-combat arms of the sororitas, but there is some. That's all I can remember off the top of my head, but someone else might be able to chime in with something I've missed. It's possible the old witchhunters 'dex might have something in there, but that was before my time.
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2017-10-03, 02:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XIV: The Emperor Floats Those Who Float Themselves
@Drasius looks like little info about nuns is every ones answer to bad i dont know lore enough that i can write a book about soritas in training ( which would be steamy love romance for sister and space marine separated on early age end up meeting in battle field getting their feeling re kindled ( with help of cawl) and lets not go to rest because it will be heresy to regular folk) so as i say unless games workshop makes book about it and clear it i will keep my head cannon as it is.
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2017-10-03, 03:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XIV: The Emperor Floats Those Who Float Themselves
Literally none of what you said even approaches to true. Please read some actual fluff, rather than just repeating exaggerations you heard from biased sources.
The quality of Intel is judged by the reliability of the source, useful details, and if you can confirm it. Magnus was already considered unreliable, the message was un-detailed, and what he said was un-confirmable. As for "given almost for free": it wrecked the Emperor's most important project, let an un-ending tide of daemons storm into the heart of the palace, and ensured the Emperor couldn't leave Terra while everything everywhere else fell apart. It was Tzeentch's masterstroke, the single move that ruined everything forever.
In response the Emperor ordered Russ to escort Magnus to Terra to explain himself (and likely help fix what he broke), but Horus intercepted the communication and changed it. Russ, being generally bloodthirsty and never liking Magnus to begin with, then didn't question anything when Horus gave him a kill order.
That is false. There's plenty of spech merines quotes addressing the emprah as their god. They believe that when they die the emprah will guide their souls and they'll get to sit at his right side in the afterlife. And they follow the dogmas the emprah left with such fervor to make the most devout eclesiarchs weep with envy.
Or what, mister posthuman couldn't develop a significantly better wargear or vehicle chassis after 10 000 years? It's like claiming our modern commandos fight clad in the finest raw fur coats and master crafted wooden spears. But the emprah ordered them to use that design of power armor and bolter, and the spuch merines obeyed with no question for ten millenia when they could've used their posthuman brains to develop something-anything multiple levels above.
Firstly, "Mister posthuman" has a brain made for fighting. Sometimes they can do other things too, but the Emperor didn't boost them to rule or supplant man but to protect them. So they tend to be only a little better than immortal-humans at non-punchy stuff. The question of "but what can we do that isn't fighting?" defined several Primarchs during the Crusade, mostly Horus Guilliman and Peturbo, and the conclusion was not good.
Secondly, unless you're in the Mechanicus research and development simply doesn't happen. "Forget the power of science and technology" is right in the opening spiel after all. So Joe-Schmo the Space Marine wouldn't really know where to begin when going beyond the rituals of usage and maintenance on his wargear. Those who do show an interest and aptitude are inducted into the Techmarines, and get made part of the system.
Thirdly, the Mechanicus has made improvements down the millennia. They've created and improved multiple different marks of power armour and bolt weapons, but their research has been slowed by the whole "unending war" thing. But a "spuch marine post human brain" is not what let them do that: it was turning people into 90% computer, stealing xeno-tech, and performing archaeology to work out what has been tried before.
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2017-10-03, 04:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XIV: The Emperor Floats Those Who Float Themselves
Away from books. This sentence is to remind me to check my Dark Heresy books as Sisters are playable.
but considering they are equivalent to space marines
The Sister might rekindle her feelings.
But, if Space Marine brain tampering (and chemical castration) has anything to say about it, nothing even remotely approaching eros love will be felt on the Space Marines' side. The Sister will only be seen as a really, really good friend and nothing more, or even a tool to be used in battle - because that's how a Space Marine's brain actually works.
A similar relationship is already seen with Kharn and what's-her-face, and Talos and Octavia.
The 1st and 2nd Founding Chapters do not see the Emperor as a God, they have records of the actual Emperor.
Guilliman woke up, and remembers what it was like.
The only Foundings that treat the Emperor as a God, are in bed with the Ecclesiarchy and are at a much, much later Founding.
The Black Templars are the only ones who really follow him as fervently as you say.
Secondly, unless you're in the Mechanicus research and development simply doesn't happen.