Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XIV: The Emperor Floats Those Who Float Themselves

[Cikomyr]

You should be aware that there's only been 2 known Space Wolves successors; the Wolf Brothers had their genes run out of control, and by the fluff no other successor chapters were created until the all-Primaris Wolfspear. Obviously there's no reason why you can't make yours an exception to this, but expect others to be all "there are no Space Wolf successors" at you.

So... This means someone can play a Space Wolf Successor Chapter during the little time periods before it went to the crapper?

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Aye, and knowing "We're in all likelihood a short-lived experiment before everything goes haywire and we're put down like rabid dogs" may do... interesting things to a Chapter's culture.

[Cikomyr]

Yhea. I cannot see any downside to "Space Wolf Chapter on a death wish" concept.

[Cheesegear]

Aye, and knowing "We're in all likelihood a short-lived experiment before everything goes haywire and we're put down like rabid dogs" may do... interesting things to a Chapter's culture.

Gabriel Seth knows that his Chapter is ruined the second he dies. He's making the most of it.

[Blackhawk748]

Gabriel Seth knows that his Chapter is ruined the second he dies. He's making the most of it.

[Cheesegear]

Okay...Uhh...Watchers of the Throne isn't exactly the book I was expecting... Which means I love it.

For starters, our main character is a Chancellor for the High Lords of Terra.
If you are at all interested in the political machinations on Terra, this book is for you - now I know why Wraight said John French was invaluable.

The book details the power structure of Terra, before, during and after The Fall of Cadia. If you're paying attention, that basically means the difference between pre- and post-return Guilliman.
The Custodes are excellent and I love them. I already knew why ADB was important to book, because there were Custodes on the front cover.
The main Sister of Silence (i.e; 'The Female Character') gave me a few chuckles, and I liked her a lot. Well played, Wraight.

I recommend Carrion Throne and 'Watchers to everyone who isn't interested in Bolter porn. Especially if you care about The High Lords of Terra.
Weren't we just talking about that like two weeks ago?
Serendipity, ho!

[Cikomyr]

I haven't read any Warhammer 40K books beside the two Inquisitor Trilogies, Guaunt's Ghosts and Ciaphas Cain.

But I might pick that one up. Any background book i need to read first?

[Cheesegear]

I haven't read any Warhammer 40K books beside the two Inquisitor Trilogies, Guaunt's Ghosts and Ciaphas Cain.

But I might pick that one up. Any background book i need to read first?

'Master of Mankind' by ADB for sure.
Which ever book in 'The Beast Arises' that deals with Sisters of Silence coming out of exile.
Gathering Storm and 'Dark Imperium' wouldn't hurt either.

Posted from phone.

[Cikomyr]

'Master of Mankind' by ADB for sure.
Which ever book in 'The Beast Arises' that deals with Sisters of Silence coming out of exile.
Gathering Storm and 'Dark Imperium' wouldn't hurt either.

Posted from phone.

Arggg.. huge list

[Cheesegear]

Arggg.. huge list

Well, yeah. Obviously you've only been reading Dan Abnett, who I've criticised before for having almost nothing to do with the rest of 40K.
Other 40K books aren't like that. Every other author is pretty much interconnected with everyone else. Wraight is very clear on his title page who he thanks, meaning that he was obviously reading books before he wrote it and/or collaborating with other authors, which informed his own book.

[LansXero]

Yhea. I cannot see any downside to "Space Wolf Chapter on a death wish" concept.

Try Space Wolves Legion instead;

Spoiler: Corax

Show

In 'Weregeld', a short story off the Corax anthology, whats left of the wolves is staying aound their broken ass, fatalistic primarch, as it slowly dies, they are letting the Legion die alonside him. Corax wanted to commit suicide-by-traitor as well, but since he is not as emo as the memes make him out to be, he actually decides to live at the last minute. Russ, however, had fully embraced his dying as his 'wyrd' or destiny, alongside all of his sons.

Too bad Corax change of heart comes after sending the guy who saved him from Isstvaan to his death though ='(

[Cikomyr]

Try Space Wolves Legion instead;

Spoiler: Corax

Show

In 'Weregeld', a short story off the Corax anthology, whats left of the wolves is staying aound their broken ass, fatalistic primarch, as it slowly dies, they are letting the Legion die alonside him. Corax wanted to commit suicide-by-traitor as well, but since he is not as emo as the memes make him out to be, he actually decides to live at the last minute. Russ, however, had fully embraced his dying as his 'wyrd' or destiny, alongside all of his sons.

Too bad Corax change of heart comes after sending the guy who saved him from Isstvaan to his death though ='(

So the most emo of all Primarchs is.. Leman Russ?!

I did not see that one coming.

[LansXero]

So the most emo of all Primarchs is.. Leman Russ?!

I did not see that one coming.

Spoiler: Corax

Show

When the emperor hands him the 'Spear of Russ' (as in, the Relic they will be searching for to bring him back), he gets a vision of how he'll die with that spear in hand.

By the time Corax gets to Yarant , Russ is asking for the weapon so he can go and fight, and die. But I think he then sends it away or something.

Anyways, that vision could've been figurative. I mean, the new successors are called Wolfspear xD

[Cikomyr]

Well, yeah. Obviously you've only been reading Dan Abnett, who I've criticised before for having almost nothing to do with the rest of 40K.
Other 40K books aren't like that. Every other author is pretty much interconnected with everyone else. Wraight is very clear on his title page who he thanks, meaning that he was obviously reading books before he wrote it and/or collaborating with other authors, which informed his own book.

You are NOT making this seem more interesting, because the only think I gather from your post is that I will only have even more ****ing backstory to read before reading the backstory of the book I want to read.

[Cheesegear]

You are NOT making this seem more interesting, because the only think I gather from your post is that I will only have even more ****ing backstory to read before reading the backstory of the book I want to read.

Affirmative.
Dan Abnett is 40K for people who don't like 40K.

40K is a setting, not a continuous story. Everything is connected. Events happen based on other things that happen based on other things. Like Forgotten Realms. Like Dragonlance. There are a few self-contained stories that are good to read. But the vast majority of stories relate to other things, often things that are found in Codecies or the rulebooks. We have stories coming out now, based on knowledge from the Heresy. In the latest (last?) Ultramarines novel, Graham McNeill makes distinct and direct references to the Daemon Prince M'kar (Maloq Kartho), Captain Venatus, and athame blades - explicitly, the Shard of Erebus and the ghost of Venatus are major plot points. While it doesn't matter that you haven't read other books, you get so much more out of the novel if you've read Know No Fear (Abnett) and Betrayer (ADB), First Heretic doesn't hurt.

While you don't have to read anything to read any novel you want (unless it's explicitly part of a set), it helps if you actually know the references that the authors are making.

My solution is 'get reading'.

Maybe now you might understand why people who are actually invested in 40K, actually know what they're talking about, because every book they've read is informed by every other book they've read.

[GolemsVoice]

Why does every 40K story have to connect to everything else? If 40K is a setting, as you say, then it should very much be possible to tell stories within that setting, without having to a) re-iterate everything that happened so far, and b) tie my story to some important dudes. I'd even go as far as to say that that what actually makes it a setting.

[Cheesegear]

Why does every 40K story have to connect to everything else?

It doesn't, but you can't be surprised when they do. Unconnected stories are rare, not the norm.
You may as well as Comic companies why they keep throwing unrelated characters into random stories. It makes people go "Oh, I know him. I like this story 'cause he's in it now." or, "I don't know him, how can you take my money in order for me to learn more?"

People. Like. Continuity. The more stories get written about a character, the more time the audience 'spends' with said character, the more they like said character, the more they want to buy things. Except in 40K this translates to bigger things, like a Space Marine Chapter's continuity.

If 40K is a setting, as you say, then it should very much be possible to tell stories within that setting, without having to a) re-iterate everything that happened so far

They don't reiterate anything. Who said they did? Arguably, the problem is that they don't reiterate anything. Leading to questions like 'Will I be confused with what's happening because I haven't read other books?' ...Yes. Yes you will. When a book makes a strong reference to a character or action in another book, and you haven't read that book? What happens?

I'd love it if novels reiterated why certain references were important.

tie my story to some important dudes.

People like continuity.

[GolemsVoice]

Eisenhorn/Ravenor have 6 books written about them, that's some continuity already. More about the same dudes, as you said.

Now, I get that you like a different type of storytelling, and that's fine, not like I don't like them. But I feel there's some unspoken quality argument, where stories that tie into the greater plot are inherently better than those that don't.

Now, as I said, nothing wrong with these book, but what I like about Abnett is that his books tell me more about the setting itself, about the little guy, or at least the people who are not the top movers and shakers of their time. And I'd wager that that's something people like as well.

And just to calm you, if you want to talk about the current events of 40K, you obviously should be up to date withe the newest novels.

[The Patterner]

People like continuity.

Yes.

But adding random characters without proper explanation is not continuity, it's lazy writing, and that's one of the reasons I gave up on the novels about a year ago. That and the fact that so many of them don't have any story to tell except kill, maim, burn....

When I read a story, I want to have a story, not just a setting for a story, and I think many writers don't really get that.

[Cheesegear]

But I feel there's some unspoken quality argument, where stories that tie into the greater plot are inherently better than those that don't.

That's not quite what I said. Atlas Infernal is a great book. But nobody's read it.

Now, as I said, nothing wrong with these book, but what I like about Abnett is that his books tell me more about the setting itself, about the little guy, or at least the people who are not the top movers and shakers of their time. And I'd wager that that's something people like as well.

Not really. The only times he does that, are when he accidentally stops talking about Ibram Gaunt, and accidentally writes a scene about the grunts.
Eisenhorn is...Well, I don't want to say Mary Sue. Cherubael is the Mary Sue. Now, if there had been an entire book about Fisching, I would've read it in a heartbeat. He's the little guy who gets pushed around and (ab)used by his betters.
Ravenor is an Alpha Plus level Pskyer and his Interrogator is [spoiler]. Patience is some kind of prodigy with also huge boobs (IIRC...Maybe that's just all the fanart? I don't even know what's real anymore). Harlon Nayl is confirmed for an author-insert.
Abnett hasn't written anything about the setting. He writes about his setting where he gets to be part of 40K, but also not 40K, because he writes Guard exactly how Guard don't operate. He's got his special crew outside of how things actually work. Eisenhorn has to fight a Titan...But actually he kills in ten seconds. It's impressive. Cherubael is really edgy and cool. But it isn't 40K.

Points for originality. I liked Eisenhorn and Ravenor a lot. I liked Abnett's world-building. But it's his world. He doesn't write 40K. I gave up on Gaunt's Ghosts 'cause Abnett was having his cake and eating too much of it.

There is an inherent value to continuity. There is inherent value to being part of a wider story, where all the pieces fit into the puzzle, and the more pieces you have of that puzzle, the more that the puzzle starts to look like the box that you really want it be.

A self-contained story...Is nothing. You read it. You're done. Move onto the next one. If it's never referenced again then it has no purpose to the greater story. It's the difference between a Monster-of-the-Week show, and a serialised show. Whereas the Monsters-of-the-Week get thrown away, forgotten about (unless they're particularly memorable, but then they just get brought back in a future episode).

Remember, I liked Eisenhorn/Ravenor. But don't pretend that Abnett writes about 'the little guy'. He writes Heroic Fiction about Heroes, same as everyone else.

The only 'little guy' I can think of is Saul Tarvitz and Shira Calpurnia (sort of).

[Forum Explorer]

That's not quite what I said. Atlas Infernal is a great book. But nobody's read it.



Not really. The only times he does that, are when he accidentally stops talking about Ibram Gaunt, and accidentally writes a scene about the grunts.
Eisenhorn is...Well, I don't want to say Mary Sue. Cherubael is the Mary Sue. Now, if there had been an entire book about Fisching, I would've read it in a heartbeat. He's the little guy who gets pushed around and (ab)used by his betters.
Ravenor is an Alpha Plus level Pskyer and his Interrogator is [spoiler]. Patience is some kind of prodigy with also huge boobs (IIRC...Maybe that's just all the fanart? I don't even know what's real anymore). Harlon Nayl is confirmed for an author-insert.
Abnett hasn't written anything about the setting. He writes about his setting where he gets to be part of 40K, but also not 40K, because he writes Guard exactly how Guard don't operate. He's got his special crew outside of how things actually work. Eisenhorn has to fight a Titan...But actually he kills in ten seconds. It's impressive. Cherubael is really edgy and cool. But it isn't 40K.

Points for originality. I liked Eisenhorn and Ravenor a lot. I liked Abnett's world-building. But it's his world. He doesn't write 40K. I gave up on Gaunt's Ghosts 'cause Abnett was having his cake and eating too much of it.

There is an inherent value to continuity. There is inherent value to being part of a wider story, where all the pieces fit into the puzzle, and the more pieces you have of that puzzle, the more that the puzzle starts to look like the box that you really want it be.

A self-contained story...Is nothing. You read it. You're done. Move onto the next one. If it's never referenced again then it has no purpose to the greater story. It's the difference between a Monster-of-the-Week show, and a serialised show. Whereas the Monsters-of-the-Week get thrown away, forgotten about (unless they're particularly memorable, but then they just get brought back in a future episode).

Remember, I liked Eisenhorn/Ravenor. But don't pretend that Abnett writes about 'the little guy'. He writes Heroic Fiction about Heroes, same as everyone else.

The only 'little guy' I can think of is Saul Tarvitz and Shira Calpurnia (sort of).

I've actually read Atlas Infernal. It was quite good.


Maybe it's better to say that he writes about humans. He has few to no Space Marine characters in his books.

And that's my problem with a lot of these 'continuity' stories is that they almost require me to read a bunch of other books about Space Marines, even if the book in question doesn't deal with them that much. Because I don't like Space Marines. I mean occasionally I'll feel like reading about them for a bit, but usually I'd simply rather focus on the ordinary (or not so ordinary) humans.

[Cikomyr]

So i learned today that I hate 40K.

So go **** yourselves everyone. I am apparently done with this discussion.

[khadgar567]

So i learned today that I hate 40K.

So go **** yourselves everyone. I am apparently done with this discussion.

so excuse the snark but <slow clap> ıt took you quite long Sherlock it took you quite long

[GolemsVoice]

Let's just say I very much disagree with you, Cheese gear, but lets agree to disagree here.

[Cheesegear]

Maybe it's better to say that he writes about humans. He has few to no Space Marine characters in his books.

At least, not in his Inquisition series.
But, yeah. Sure. If you don't like Space Marines, then don't read Space Marines. More and more books are coming out for them.
Bolter porn is on the decline - but it's still around.

IMO, the worst thing Abnett ever did was Ollanius Pius' memories. He literally could've picked anything, and he chose the Highway of Death and M3 modern history. Ollanius Pius is the biggest missed opportunity that I've ever seen, and Abnett used that opportunity to write about...Stuff we already kind of know about?

I still say that Know No Fear is the best book he's ever written. Abnett's not a bad writer. I've already said that I kind of like his style a lot...Except when I don't. I actually remember when I thought Harlon Nayl was the coolest guy ever. Now? Not so much. I would still read a book about Fischig. Eisenhorn is a cool guy. Ravenor is a dude in a chair. Together - or, not-so-together - they fight crime...And eventually each other...Kind of. The fact that Eisenhorn and Ravenor are duo trilogies (i.e; MOAR CONTINUITY!), helps a lot, because obviously I've spent more time with them means I like them more. You need three dates, after all, right?
"Thorn wishes Aegis."..."Aegis Arising." *swoon* I get it.

But when I compare it to something like Atlas Infernal (Sanders), or Inquisition War (Watson)? Or, recently Carrion Throne and Watchers of the Throne (Wraight)?

What am I preferring, there? Consistency? Connections to a larger universe? The bad guy is Ahriman, I know him! He's been hunting Czevak like...the whole time. I'm already invested in the novel, and I haven't even opened it yet, because there's already a pre-written story to jump off of. I know what that is. A third of the novel wont be setup and backstory, because the backstory already exists, and I have already read it in previous things. Straight to the plot! Continuity breeds familiarity. Familiarity breeds contempt.

You don't have to explain to me that there's a Daemon Portal underneath the Imperial Palace. I already read Master of Mankind (and the rulebook). Straight to the plot! Who needs backstory, when the backstory is already written?

It's the same in Comics. People are turned off by the massive amounts of things that they have to read in order to understand the current story.
Other people? That's what they love. Because greater continuity equals greater investment over time... And I'm not talking about the 'sunk cost' fallacy.

I mean occasionally I'll feel like reading about them for a bit, but usually I'd simply rather focus on the ordinary (or not so ordinary) humans.

I love humans. I'm one of those things! And I agree with you (what I don't like, is WW1 in my 40K). If you don't like Space Marines to the point where you flat-out refuse to read a book about them (even if someone tells you that a book with Space Marines in, is good?), you're in for a bad time, and I genuinely don't know how to fix that. The only thing you can do, is vote with your wallet and hope more trilogies like Forge of Mars come out.

[Wraith]

Eisenhorn is...Well, I don't want to say Mary Sue. Cherubael is the Mary Sue.

Abnett's Inquisition novels are somewhat entertaining in that they feature multiple Mary Sues, and we get to see them all trying to outdo each other. Eisenhorn absolutely is one; it's pretty hard to argue against, between being a millionaire, killing a Space Marine in close combat, escaping the Imperial Inquisition for ~80 years while continuing to dispense his own brand of morally-unquestionable justice, and bedding various hot women even while being pursued by cybernetic super-ninjas. Who he also kills en masse.

If anything - especially compared to *wretches* Beta Bequin - Ravenor is the underdog who, despite being a psychic powerhouse, almost never wins a fight and spends most if his time either bleeding to death, getting eaten by a bigger Psyker or with a null-field clamped over the front of his chair, which is kind of impressive for a guy who is a deliberately described prodigy at everything that he turns his shrivelled, blackened stump to.

Now, if there had been an entire book about Fisching, I would've read it in a heartbeat.

Agreed.

Ravenor is an Alpha Plus level Pskyer...

"High Delta, possible low-Gamma" in the words of someone reliable. He's only an Alpha-Plus to Nayl, who was being sarcastic and is blissfully unaware of what an actual Alpha-Plus Psyker can do. Unlike Ravenor, who has had the crap kicked out of him by actual Gamma/Beta Psykers more than once, and has met Apha-Plus psykers and is very much aware of his comparative short fall.

Patience is some kind of prodigy with also huge boobs (IIRC...Maybe that's just all the fanart? I don't even know what's real anymore).

Fanart; She's tall and thin in the text. While obviously womanly, she's nowhere near as stacked as Kara or even Maud Plyton.

Eisenhorn has to fight a Titan...But actually he kills in ten seconds. It's impressive.

That's kind of only half true. Yes, he kills it in ten seconds..... after spending ~(an hour) running for his life while the thing chews up everything within eyeline, killing his friends and allies and shrugging off Plan A-though-G until he's forced into "H" for "Heresy"

There is an inherent value to continuity. There is inherent value to being part of a wider story, where all the pieces fit into the puzzle, and the more pieces you have of that puzzle, the more that the puzzle starts to look like the box that you really want it be.

While I agree with you an al points thus far, I cannot help but feel it necessary to agree with Cikomyr in that we are possibly on the verge of there being too much continuity. Case in point; I'll be damned if I can remember the names of more than 2 Heresy-era Ultramarines who aren't What's-His-Face in the Knight Errant, one of whom I know to be dead. There's just books and books of Roman-faced, blonde haired guys in blue chanting the same godawful little motto over and over again and I really don't care about any of them....

[Cheesegear]

Fanart; She's tall and thin in the text. While obviously womanly, she's nowhere near as stacked as Kara or even Maud Plyton.

KARA. That's who I was thinking of... I still don't know if that helps your case, though.

While I agree with you an al points thus far, I cannot help but feel it necessary to agree with Cikomyr in that we are possibly on the verge of there being too much continuity.

And I agree. Continuity isn't for everyone (I mentioned Comics, and it will be my ur-example). Unfortunately, it is what sells. Like I said, don't know what to someone if Black Library simply isn't selling them something that they want.

[LeSwordfish]

Continuity isn't for everyone (I mentioned Comics, and it will be my ur-example). Unfortunately, it is what sells.

Do you have a source for this?

[Wraith]

KARA. That's who I was thinking of... I still don't know if that helps your case, though.

*I* had a point? Well, gee whiz, that's new.

Seriously, I just thought I was helping answer question. Patience is a powerful psyker and is certainly beautiful, but is so in a "scary" way; she's tall, willowy, angular and sharp (it actually puts me in mind of an Eldar, come to think of it...) and is a bonafide sociopath to boot. And not one of the good kind.

Kara, meanwhile, is conventionally gorgeous and is prodigiously adept at acrobatics, but she's not great in a fight and it's certainly fair to say that her judgement and problem solving skills..... suck.

They're both borderline cases, I think - were either the star of their own novel then they'd be clear examples of Stu-dom, but as side characters to Ravenor? They're one-dimensional experts in their particular fields, and that's what they're used for at His convenience, which is entirely appropriate for Inquisitorial minions, I think.

Do you have a source for this?

I can offer an anecdote? A Thousand Sons was the first Horus Heresy novel to reach the New York Times' Best Seller list in 2010; since then, at least 8 others have followed suit (and they're not even some of the best Heresy books, in my personal opinion), which suggests that people are following the series and not just picking individual stories at their whim.

[GolemsVoice]

Abnett DOES have an unhealthy fetish about meantime how all the women totally have huge tits, dude.
EDIT: to be fair, I'd say a big part of the popularity of the HH novels come from the fact that they talk about the biggest thing in Warhammer 40K yet, not from the fact that they're a series of interlocking books