Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XIV: The Emperor Floats Those Who Float Themselves

[lord_khaine]

Have you made any effort at all to look beyond the most cursory examination?

Not really, its why im debating against how large a part of their main identity it is. That they are apperently fanatically against genetic enginering sounds more like the sort of detail hidden in a back page of their codex than a core part of whom they are. And that they think Space Marines are abhumans honestly sounds more like a misunderstanding than anything else. I do know the religion that employ the Sisters venerate Space Marines highly. And it does sound really weird if they disagree on that bit. Whats the source for this?

For that matter, having read though the details of Space Marine transformation, then there would not be any ideological problems for Sisters to go though it. There isnt any genetic tampering taking place, whats done with a Space Marine is purely done though biological implants. Its as such not really different from just getting a lot of cyberware.

[khadgar567]

Not really, its why im debating against how large a part of their main identity it is. That they are apperently fanatically against genetic enginering sounds more like the sort of detail hidden in a back page of their codex than a core part of whom they are. And that they think Space Marines are abhumans honestly sounds more like a misunderstanding than anything else. I do know the religion that employ the Sisters venerate Space Marines highly. And it does sound really weird if they disagree on that bit. Whats the source for this?

For that matter, having read though the details of Space Marine transformation, then there would not be any ideological problems for Sisters to go though it. There isnt any genetic tampering taking place, whats done with a Space Marine is purely done though biological implants. Its as such not really different from just getting a lot of cyberware.

some how agreeing with eldar god makes me proud citizen of true imperium call it heresy but if what khaine says it true then primaris sisters are kinda quite easy only hard problem is their religious side since they are special breed heretics with devotion to Big E instead of chaos gods so shocking isn't it i will take a bolter to head please.

[Cikomyr]

To be fair, forcing the integration of Female Space Marines in the Sister of Battles who would resent and distrust them on principle would be a nice symetry with how some Astartes distrust and resent the Primaris Marines.

Plus, you can then have book about some of those Sister Astartes finding True Faith. Some of them actually integrate and gets accepted. Other more puritanical Order actually have them suffer an "accident". Etc..

Having the Sister of Battle's Astartesphobia showing up as an internal struggle might actually be interesting without wiping out their identiry.

[Cheesegear]

but if what khaine says it true then primaris sisters are kinda quite easy...

What he says isn't true.

religious side since they are special breed heretics with devotion to Big E instead of chaos gods...

No.

Having the Sister of Battle's Astartesphobia showing up as an internal struggle might actually be interesting without wiping out their identiry.

The problem is that people don't read books, and anything even remotely resembling 'female Space Marines' absolutely would destroy their identity.

You don't make female characters better by using them to replace male characters ("Let's make James Bond female! What could possibly go wrong!"), because replacing males with females, is basically the problem that all of Those People see is the problem, and anyone with a working brain knows is a problem.
What you do is make either a) new female Characters, or, even easier, b) the existing female characters more interesting within their own identity.

The opening character development for Celestine in Gathering Storm I was really, really good. It gave her an identity.
If Grace didn't die for no reason (FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU), I would have loved to see her interaction with Gabriel Seth.

[Drasius]

Not really, its why im debating against how large a part of their main identity it is. That they are apperently fanatically against genetic enginering sounds more like the sort of detail hidden in a back page of their codex than a core part of whom they are. And that they think Space Marines are abhumans honestly sounds more like a misunderstanding than anything else. I do know the religion that employ the Sisters venerate Space Marines highly. And it does sound really weird if they disagree on that bit. Whats the source for this?

For that matter, having read though the details of Space Marine transformation, then there would not be any ideological problems for Sisters to go though it. There isnt any genetic tampering taking place, whats done with a Space Marine is purely done though biological implants. Its as such not really different from just getting a lot of cyberware.

If you've not looked at any of the background on sisters, then how are you going to have an informed debate on anything involving them? The very fact that you don't realise that space marines themselves recognise that they're abhumans means that you are already arguing from a position of ignorance. The religion that the sisters have venerates the Immortal God Emperor of Mankind, the marines are merely one of His chosen tools.

It's also not that they're fanatically against genetic engineering, it's that they're fanatically for the purity of mankind, so anything that tampers with it (mutation, corruption, psychery etc) is regarded as impure and against the emperor's will (since he is all about human supremacy, but as humans, not genetically mutated human variants). Yes, this raises a contradiction with why did he make custodes and marines, but a) he's the Emperor so it's OK b) this is part of the reason why sisters ... tolerate makes it sound too harsh, but I don't have a better word for it, marines c) religion rarely is without these contradictions d) there's lots of stuff about the imperium that doesn't make sense and e) if you've got a track record of fighting for the emperor, then the sisters can overlook a certain level of genetic transgression (see: approved abhumans like Ogryn) though their dislike of dirty witches is set in stone (see Faith and Fire).

[Voidhawk]

Not really, its why im debating against how large a part of their main identity it is. That they are apperently fanatically against genetic enginering sounds more like the sort of detail hidden in a back page of their codex than a core part of whom they are. And that they think Space Marines are abhumans honestly sounds more like a misunderstanding than anything else. I do know the religion that employ the Sisters venerate Space Marines highly. And it does sound really weird if they disagree on that bit. Whats the source for this?

Space Marines were created to serve humanity. But they are Not Human, and therefore often seen as slightly lesser. As with everything in religion, there are a million different sects that believe different things. Some see Space Marines as distant pure angels, others (usually the ones who have met them) see them as dangerous mutants who obey no authority and have done the Imperium more harm than good.

The three pillars of the Eclisiarchy are Faith, Devotion, and Purity.
Faith - Don't Doubt. Don't doubt your superiors, don't doubt the necessity of what you do, don't question the word of the Emperor. Burn the Heretic who questions.
Devotion - Do What Must Be Done. Do the tasks you are given, do them well. Ask for nothing in return, save the next task. Purge the Traitor who thinks only of himself.
Purity - Be Simple. Give up all else but serving HIM. Become an instrument of his will. Do not tolerate deviance. Cleanse the Mutant who strays from His divine plan.

They don't just fanatically hate genetic engineering traitorous mutants, they fanatically LOVE being baseline human. It's what the Emperor made them, and as such is Perfect.

For that matter, having read though the details of Space Marine transformation, then there would not be any ideological problems for Sisters to go though it. There isnt any genetic tampering taking place, whats done with a Space Marine is purely done though biological implants. Its as such not really different from just getting a lot of cyberware.

There is a HUGE amount of genetic tampering, caused by all sorts of strange biological things secreted by their new organs. What do you think it is that gene-seed does? Why do different legions mutate and begin to resemble their primarchs? Why do Space Wolves get hairy and lairy, while Salamanders go dark with weird eyes? It's because the implanted organs mutate and re-sculpt their flesh to a new design. It is not "just cyberware", it completely subverts and replaces vast quantities of a Neophyte's biology. They metabolise Adamantium into their bones for pete's sake!

[khadgar567]

The three pillars of the Eclisiarchy are Faith, Devotion, and Purity.
Faith - Don't Doubt. Don't doubt your superiors, don't doubt the necessity of what you do, don't question the word of the Emperor. Burn the Heretic who questions.
Devotion - Do What Must Be Done. Do the tasks you are given, do them well. Ask for nothing in return, save the next task. Purge the Traitor who thinks only of himself.
Purity - Be Simple. Give up all else but serving HIM. Become an instrument of his will. Do not tolerate deviance. Cleanse the Mutant who strays from His divine plan.

explain to me again why imperium made Big E god ( their supreme superior) god then devote to keep his works where he explicitly say them to evolve or corrupt his life's work ( imperium) to this wretched form then looks like empire has giant faith problem for me and sisters of battle is in the helm of all things man.

[Grim Portent]

The Imperium gradually came to worship the Emperor due to the secretive spreading of the Lectitio Diviniatus, a book written by Lorgar in the Great Crusade proclaiming the Emperor a god. The Emperor outlawed it and any group worshipping him, but when the Horus Heresy began it became impossible to enforce the ban.

During the strife and fear caused by the civil war many normal humans turned to the cults based around the Divinatus for comfort as their worlds were burned around them by the armies of loyalists and traitors. When the Emperor died the cults took it as him martyring himself for humanity, which was broadly correct, and became more entrenched in their faith as they believed he had returned to his true divine state as Lorgar had written when he thought the Emperor was divine.

The Imperium proceeded to keep the worship of the Emperor outlawed for a while as the Primarchs and council of Terra still held to the Emperor's atheistic teachings, but the cult kept growing throughout the Imperium until it eventually became large enough that they had to give the biggest one a place in the management of the Imperium to prevent a massive rebellion among otherwise loyal subjects. They tasked it with policing the other cults and managing the spiritual needs of it's followers, and the teachings of the new Adeptus Ministorum quickly spread throughout the Imperium. After 300 years they were granted a seat among the High Lords of Terra.

[Voidhawk]

explain to me again why imperium made Big E god ( their supreme superior) god then devote to keep his works where he explicitly say them to evolve or corrupt his life's work ( imperium) to this wretched form then looks like empire has giant faith problem for me and sisters of battle is in the helm of all things man.

In case you somehow didn't get it, here's the third paragraph of the opening spiel again:

To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruellest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

Life in the Imperium SUCKS. The 40k setting is quite literally the worst of all possible worlds.

The Sisters of Battle preach things and do things the Emperor wouldn't have wanted. But they weren't founded by someone sitting down with all the information and going "what would the Emperor want?". They were founded when a mad tyrant took a group of fanatics and decided he wanted them as his personal harem/shock-troops, and then later they killed him. And then another four thousand years passed, with all the cultural mutation and bureaucratic insanity that generates.

So yes, it is the most terrible irony that the Imperium has become exactly what the Emperor didn't want. And that his most devoted servants preach beliefs he would have found abhorrent. But that's the point. Welcome to the 41st Millennium: It's all gone horribly, horribly wrong, and it's still getting worse.

[khadgar567]

sweet sweet heresy is tzeench is the only f*cker knows what the real f happened?
and by the way spoiler for eldar fans

Spoiler: fate of eldar

Show

thanks to new dead god they kinda walk in the path of big E and gonna need to pull same type of messiah from their infinty matrix. conquer the galaxy little bit via their variant of adaptus astaries and fail like imperioum so no think kinda changes maybe 6 th chaos god appears from colective stupitity of the galaxy

[Blackhawk748]

Not really, its why im debating against how large a part of their main identity it is. That they are apperently fanatically against genetic enginering sounds more like the sort of detail hidden in a back page of their codex than a core part of whom they are. And that they think Space Marines are abhumans honestly sounds more like a misunderstanding than anything else. I do know the religion that employ the Sisters venerate Space Marines highly. And it does sound really weird if they disagree on that bit. Whats the source for this?

For that matter, having read though the details of Space Marine transformation, then there would not be any ideological problems for Sisters to go though it. There isnt any genetic tampering taking place, whats done with a Space Marine is purely done though biological implants. Its as such not really different from just getting a lot of cyberware.

Go read Faith and Fire and Hammer and Anvil. Those are the two SoB novels and they will give you excellent insight into their mentality

To be fair, forcing the integration of Female Space Marines in the Sister of Battles who would resent and distrust them on principle would be a nice symetry with how some Astartes distrust and resent the Primaris Marines.

Plus, you can then have book about some of those Sister Astartes finding True Faith. Some of them actually integrate and gets accepted. Other more puritanical Order actually have them suffer an "accident". Etc..

Having the Sister of Battle's Astartesphobia showing up as an internal struggle might actually be interesting without wiping out their identiry.

The Sisters would most likely kill them as abominations before the Emperor, or the Ecclisearchy would tell you to so off or burn you as a traitor

[LansXero]

So yes, it is the most terrible irony that the Imperium has become exactly what the Emperor didn't want. And that his most devoted servants preach beliefs he would have found abhorrent. But that's the point. Welcome to the 41st Millennium: It's all gone horribly, horribly wrong, and it's still getting worse.

Well, sort of; I mean, what didn't happen was Eye of Terror / Prospero 2.0 as humanity became a psychic race; thats the endgame Big E was working towards, right? A fully awakened, psychic humanity that can master the warp and use it for its own advancement, basically a faster-reproducing Eldar. So while the current Imperium might've gone against the 'Imperial Truth', the Imperial Truth was never a goal, it was a tool to fight Chaos so humanity doesnt get eaten by demons before its time.

No, no, no.... What the story of Curze proves is that his methods are fast and reliable BUT they require repeated and persistent reinforcement.
Nostromo was a criminal dump. Curze turned it into a law-abiding dump. Curze went on Crusade. Nostromo turned back into a criminal dump when, and ONLY when, he was absent. And as soon as he got back, he 'fixed' that little problem.

That's what you should take away from the story of the Night Haunter; that he was right, but he was too soft on people for his own good.

He was always present in his Legion, and it still got poisoned to a point where he hated his own marines. Sure, repression works when its permanently enforced, but my point was that I dont believe anyone disagreed on that in universe; they just didnt want to have to keep enforcing it, as the Great Crusade was a race for the stars, so Curze's way of affecting compliance was indeed wrong.

Compare it with the AL way of subverting a culture and turning it on itself, so the repression would sustain itself without tying up the Space Marines.

[Brookshw]

A fully awakened, psychic humanity that can master the warp and use it for its own advancement

Wait, wha? Mankind on top, check. Psychic? You lost me. Was that from Master of Mankind?

[lord_khaine]

What he says isn't true.

Oh! congratulation with your promotion to writer for GW Cheese. I hope we can expect a bit more from the fluff in the future.
Wait.. your saying your not working for GW? your just a normal fan like the rest of us? Not the upper arbiter of whats true and whats not true?

Then perhaps you should stop acting like you were..?

If you've not looked at any of the background on sisters, then how are you going to have an informed debate on anything involving them? The very fact that you don't realise that space marines themselves recognise that they're abhumans means that you are already arguing from a position of ignorance. The religion that the sisters have venerates the Immortal God Emperor of Mankind, the marines are merely one of His chosen tools.

It's also not that they're fanatically against genetic engineering, it's that they're fanatically for the purity of mankind, so anything that tampers with it (mutation, corruption, psychery etc) is regarded as impure and against the emperor's will (since he is all about human supremacy, but as humans, not genetically mutated human variants). Yes, this raises a contradiction with why did he make custodes and marines, but a) he's the Emperor so it's OK b) this is part of the reason why sisters ... tolerate makes it sound too harsh, but I don't have a better word for it, marines c) religion rarely is without these contradictions d) there's lots of stuff about the imperium that doesn't make sense and e) if you've got a track record of fighting for the emperor, then the sisters can overlook a certain level of genetic transgression (see: approved abhumans like Ogryn) though their dislike of dirty witches is set in stone (see Faith and Fire).

Because i have looked at some of the background, its just not a subject i have gone into depth with, since Sisters of Battle are likely the faction who has gotten the least bit of attention. Though since its not all Space Marines that see themselves as abhumans, then at least i can have company here in my ignorant position.

Else, a) to e) does explain why the Sisters might work with things the otherwise dislike, it is a war and every little bit helps. But i dont really think it gives a good explanation for why there is a dislike for the Emperors most revered tools to start with. Is it something i overlooked in the codex, or something that comes from a later novel?

Space Marines were created to serve humanity. But they are Not Human, and therefore often seen as slightly lesser. As with everything in religion, there are a million different sects that believe different things. Some see Space Marines as distant pure angels, others (usually the ones who have met them) see them as dangerous mutants who obey no authority and have done the Imperium more harm than good.

Well, i myself have newer encountered the view of them being slightly lesser than humans in anything i have read. The distant Angels of Death comes up pretty regularly, and the dangeros people who obey no authorithy once in a while among radical inquisitors.

They don't just fanatically hate genetic engineering traitorous mutants, they fanatically LOVE being baseline human. It's what the Emperor made them, and as such is Perfect.

There is a HUGE amount of genetic tampering, caused by all sorts of strange biological things secreted by their new organs. What do you think it is that gene-seed does? Why do different legions mutate and begin to resemble their primarchs? Why do Space Wolves get hairy and lairy, while Salamanders go dark with weird eyes? It's because the implanted organs mutate and re-sculpt their flesh to a new design. It is not "just cyberware", it completely subverts and replaces vast quantities of a Neophyte's biology. They metabolise Adamantium into their bones for pete's sake!

No, actually not. As i said before, i examined each transformation step carefully. There are an awful lot of biological tampering going on. But Gene-seed is about as accurate a description as, i dont know, Machine Spirit.
But it is just the biological equivalent to cyberware. Bioware. The implanted organs hijack their hosts metabolism, changing their growth into the transhuman monsters we all know and dislike (thats a personal and heretical point of view).
All the changes that takes place comes from hormones and implanted organs though, there are no mutations or resculpting of flesh. Thats also the reason for why this needs to be done to kids from what i can see.

They do as such not metabolis adamantium though. It along with other fun minerals are fed to them in their diet, and the implant they have that increase their bone growth then ensure that its absorbed into their skeleton.

Go read Faith and Fire and Hammer and Anvil. Those are the two SoB novels and they will give you excellent insight into their mentality

I will see if i can find them.

[LansXero]

No, actually not. As i said before, i examined each transformation step carefully. There are an awful lot of biological tampering going on. But Gene-seed is about as accurate a description as, i dont know, Machine Spirit.
But it is just the biological equivalent to cyberware. Bioware. The implanted organs hijack their hosts metabolism, changing their growth into the transhuman monsters we all know and dislike (thats a personal and heretical point of view).
All the changes that takes place comes from hormones and implanted organs though, there are no mutations or resculpting of flesh. Thats also the reason for why this needs to be done to kids from what i can see.

They do as such not metabolis adamantium though. It along with other fun minerals are fed to them in their diet, and the implant they have that increase their bone growth then ensure that its absorbed into their skeleton.

"There is no mutation"


then you have the bone growths in the black dragons, what happened to the Raven Guard's raptors, etc. Also, in the Corax anthology:

Spoiler: Corax

Show

Corax is very close to comiting suicide because he realizes Primarchs, and to a lesser extent Astartes,
are all warp-touched mutants and abominations; while he isn't in the most stable state of mind (having just sent the guy who rescued him from Isstvan to die) its just a reiteration of whats revealed during Vengeful Spirit: the Emperor got the 'Primarch Code' from the Chaos Gods; probably whatever makes Space Marines become Space Marines is warp tainted as well

[khadgar567]

warhammer 40k where the crisis of fate is regular occurrence i like to hear that even the mightiest space marines can have crisis of fate and decides to use that bolter for some thing useful like erasing his shameful existence.

[thethird]

"There is no mutation"

There is no mutation. At least in the 2K definition of the word; there is no change in the structure of the DNA that can be transmitted into subsequent generations.

That is not to say that there is no difference between chapters and how their geneseed (which might change over time) being implanted into their neophytes affects them. Space Wolves genseseed reacts to the canix helix of fenrisians, the oesomodula of the black dragons was tampered as part of the 21st founding, the raven guard's raptors were spiked with demon material (and didn't follow normal geneseed implantation process, growing the organs directly), etcetera...

[Cheesegear]

Oh! congratulation with your promotion to writer for GW Cheese.

You don't have to write books to read books.

Well, i myself have newer encountered the view of them being slightly lesser than humans in anything i have read.

The only emotions many of them can process is rage, and sometimes sadness. Stripped of emotions = Stripped of Humanity. Even Salamanders know that. Especially the Salamanders.
Brain tampering will do that to you.

No, actually not. As i said before, i examined each transformation step carefully. There are an awful lot of biological tampering going on. But Gene-seed is about as accurate a description as, i dont know, Machine Spirit.

That's not what a gene-seed is. A gene-seed is...I don't know...Basically all of your DNA. A gene-seed has physicality, you can touch it. You can hold it. And you can certainly rip it out of someone's chest (hence 'harvesting gene-seed'). It's an extra organ that is vital for function. You may as well remove your brain. Not necessarily your heart, 'cause Marines have two of those.

A 'Machine Spirit' isn't a tangible thing. It's an automated function that a machine performs that the operator may, or may not know about. When the Imperium refers to a 'Machine Spirit', they're referring to barely functioning AI, that is tasked to do a single job. If you were to remove a 'Machine Spirit' from, say, a Land Raider...You would be removing it's automatic functions, like targeting, or the 'Check Engine' light.
When you remove a Machine Spirit...Nothing happens. Or, it can be replaced, and life moves on.

A Marine without their gene-seed (progenoid), is dead. D-E-D. Dead. Unlike a machine, there isn't really a backup. Even Dreadnought pilots (?) can die.

Maybe that will cause you to say that Machines are stronger than Space Marines.
In which case you're right. That's the Iron Hands' whole schtick. Or you're wrong, because how can you save Humanity, without trying to be Human? ...Cue the Salamanders.

But it is just the biological equivalent to cyberware. Bioware.

It's not. Your reasoning is flawed. It's already been pointed out.

But, at the end of the day, Marines are Abhumans. Sometimes More Than Human (Dante), sometimes Less (Mephiston).
I can never imagine a Sororitas - one that's actually been indroctrinated, that is - to accept becoming a Marine, or Skitarii.

[thethird]

But, at the end of the day, Marines are Abhumans. Sometimes More Than, sometimes Less.

Abhumans evolved from humanity, are stable and can have progeny. Space Marines cannot have progeny, it's problematic to define them as having evolved from humanity. Gland War Veterans who are specifically called out as genetically modified are listed as abhuman (although as far as I know there hasn't been a gland war vet baby).

[Cheesegear]

Space Marines cannot have progeny, it's problematic to define them as having evolved from humanity.

Space Marines have a standard genetic template, and can reproduce - just not in the 'traditional' sense. Hence Progenoid Gland. It's intended to make more of them.
While using 'Abhuman' to define Space Marines isn't correct, per se. It's close to accurate. Space Marines aren't human. But they are, or were at one stage - all of them. Until they were genetically modified.

'Abhuman' is quicker to say/type than 'Genetically Modified Human'...Which is pretty close to the definition of 'Abhuman' anyway. So I'm okay with it.

[thethird]

Space Marines have a standard genetic template, and can reproduce - just not in the 'traditional' sense. Hence Progenoid Gland. It's intended to make more of them.
While using 'Abhuman' to define Space Marines isn't correct, per se. It's close to accurate. Space Marines aren't human. But they are, or were at one stage - all of them. Until they were genetically modified.

'Abhuman' is quicker to say/type than 'Genetically Modified Human'.

But barely quicker than to say transhuman and a lot less accurate term...

Space Marines aren't genetically modified per se, if we are looking into finesing things. The gene-seed (genetical material) is used to grow organs. Those organs are then implanted into a candidate that if he survives it becomes a space marine. The progenoid gland (an organ) then generates more geneseed. Which will be used to grow more organs and then be implanted into new prospective marines.

Space Marines genome isn't modified (they aren't genetically modified) they are implanted organs with a different genetic structure. They are effectively chimeras (in the medical term) by having two sets of DNA going on at the same time. Personally if I had to say that anything had real mutations it would be the genetic material in the gene-seed (which is the one that reproduces and can therefore mutate) and that would explain why gene-seed sometimes goes bad. But that still wouldn't have the space marines as genetically modified humans nor as abhumans.

[Grim Portent]

Abhuman seems to mean aberrant human as a distinction from mutants which are no longer considered human. Any non-mutant non-purestrain human seems to be considered abhuman, such as the Afriel Strain and Gland Warriors who were biologically engineered/augmented, the Nocturnians who are naturally divergent from the human baseline, the Ogryn, Ratlings and Beastmen who are naturally divergent but to a far greater extent than is normal.

Marines are technically post-human not abhuman, but Gland Warriors and Afriel Strain are the same in principle and are considered abhumans.

EDIT: I'm pretty sure the progenoids affect the host's DNA as a side effect of their implantation. They have to regulate wider organ function and are linked to the phenotypic changes in marines like the skin, face bones and eyes often changing to reflect the primarchs, and I'm pretty sure there's meant to be differences in the actual nature and function of the host's DNA in some of the books, at least to the extent that a non-invasive test can tell what legion/chapter a marine is from.

[thethird]

Marines are technically post-human not abhuman, but Gland Warriors and Afriel Strain are the same in principle and are considered abhumans.

The only way to group afriel strain and gland warriors is if the modification made to them is at a genetic level (be it for being literal genetic modification as in gland warriors, or cloning as it's heavily implied in the afriel strain). Both can have children and have their progeny inherit their genetic make up. They are indeed posthumans (as all abhumans and transhumans are) and are so by design (in a similar way that space marines are designed posthumans) but they are not transhumans in the sense that they are still humans (unlike the space mariens, which are something else made from humans).

---

Edit:

EDIT: I'm pretty sure the progenoids affect the host's DNA as a side effect of their implantation. They have to regulate wider organ function and are linked to the phenotypic changes in marines like the skin, face bones and eyes often changing to reflect the primarchs, and I'm pretty sure there's meant to be differences in the actual nature and function of the host's DNA in some of the books, at least to the extent that a non-invasive test can tell what legion/chapter a marine is from.

I always, this is headcannon, assumed they were chimeras. The new DNA within them could justify the changes. And wouldn't necessarily be passed down if they produced offspring like normal humans (I think they can't do that, or simply don't normally think of doing that).

[khadgar567]

is it me or some genius magos biologis can kinda solve the golden issue and give marines ability to reproduce like regular means so we might have primaris generation happening down to road were chosen candidates of both sisters of battle and astartes mate to generate the next generation imperium real citizens( which might be big E s real plan)

[thethird]

is it me or some genius magos biologis can kinda solve the golden issue and give marines ability to reproduce like regular means so we might have primaris generation happening down to road were chosen candidates of both sisters of battle and astartes mate to generate the next generation imperium real citizens( which might be big E s real plan)

A genius magos biologis can do as the plot demands of him, he is after all a character in a book. And if the plot demands that he does, the plot (like nature) will find a way.

How internally consistent with the setting would it be? Not very. Would it be possible to write it? Perhaps. I know I would probably not have the skill to do so well. But I'm not a professional writer and I don't work for GW. Perhaps some of their writers is capable of pulling that out without the readers suspension of disbelief.

If I was a fanfic writer and I would really really want to write it.

Spoiler

Show

Omegon and Arik Tarannis.

The first could have knowledge of how the Emperor made the primarchs considered the Alpha Legion was responsible for sabotaging the Raven Guard's process during the heresy. He could have knowledge of how to do it without spiking things with demon blood.

The second was capable of extracting geneseed from space marines and use it on himself a non space marine. While he is also post human (and probably transhuman, if not from the start certainly at this point). And he can justifiably have a lot of practical knowledge on how geneseed works on non space marines.

Together both can use primaris marines (which by this points are basically open source, I doubt space marines apothecaries don't know how produce primaris space marines) or normal marines (if for some reason they think they work best) combined with an actual primarch geneseed. To reproduce the raven guard's process (again without demon stuff). Then the prospect space marines actually grew the organs and moved beyond progenoid glands.

Those space marines would have an actual chance of being able to pass their genetic make up on descendants. Of course I wouldn't make the descendants survive long at first (they would be astartes - human hybrids). That's where Arik would come in.

---

Belisarius Cawl + Fabius Bile + Honsou

Belisarius Cawl is willing to work on heretic's geneseed. So having him crossing some lines could be interesting.

Fabius Bile has cloned a primarch! And has access to several primarch material. And he is responsible for creating space marines for several chaos space marine legions. He might very well be the best apothecary there is.

Honsou has actually succeded in something similar enough to what you want. The Daemonculaba creates space marines from a fertile mother.

I would keep myself away from writing that! Because I doubt I would enjoy writing it though.

[9mm]

But barely quicker than to say transhuman and a lot less accurate term...

Space Marines aren't genetically modified per se, if we are looking into finesing things. The gene-seed (genetical material) is used to grow organs. Those organs are then implanted into a candidate that if he survives it becomes a space marine. The progenoid gland (an organ) then generates more geneseed. Which will be used to grow more organs and then be implanted into new prospective marines.

Not entirely. Given enough time, after the geneseed is implanted the neophyte will eventually become a space marine without the need for extra impantations. See Blood Angels and their year inside a coffin filled with blood, or the Space Wolfs time naked outside on Ferris conquering their inner Wulfen; and lets not even get started on what Fabius Bile is up to...

[Drasius]

Oh! congratulation with your promotion to writer for GW Cheese. I hope we can expect a bit more from the fluff in the future.
Wait.. your saying your not working for GW? your just a normal fan like the rest of us? Not the upper arbiter of whats true and whats not true?

Then perhaps you should stop acting like you were..?

Perhaps if you had more knowledge on the subject, you'd understand that the things you're saying are flat out wrong to people who have read more about the subject and your "but I think it's this way, even though I haven't done anything more than skimmed a brief wiki article once and the people who have read the books and are invested enough in the faction to know their background are wrong" line of reasoning means it's difficult to continue to provide examples to show why you're wrong when you ignore them.

Because i have looked at some of the background, its just not a subject i have gone into depth with, since Sisters of Battle are likely the faction who has gotten the least bit of attention. Though since its not all Space Marines that see themselves as abhumans, then at least i can have company here in my ignorant position.

Else, a) to e) does explain why the Sisters might work with things the otherwise dislike, it is a war and every little bit helps. But i dont really think it gives a good explanation for why there is a dislike for the Emperors most revered tools to start with. Is it something i overlooked in the codex, or something that comes from a later novel?

Because, and I know I've said this before, the sisters believe in the Emperor's goal of a pure humanity and mutant freaks (like navigators for example) and transhuman (eg astartes) and abhuman (eg ogryn) are (again, tolerated isn't quite the right word, but it's as close as I'm going to get) either OK 'cause the emperor made them (astartes) and something of His is obviously fine, OK 'cause the ecclessiarchy says so (various approved abhumans) and they speak with the emperor's voice as far as the sisters are concerned or an inconvinient and unfortunate necessity (navigators) that will be disposed of the instant humanity no longer needs them to travel between the stars.

You're also not quite on the money with the astartes being Emps most revered tools as they're not looked upon as such by quite a few factions (and more than a few of the people they've fought besides eg Blood Angels allies survivors). The astartes are a very good tool against His enemies, but they're also responsible for the current shenanigans that's caused so much strife in the galaxy. There's also going to be some resentment of the fact that they're outside normal command structure and don't really report to anyone but themselves (and technically the high lords of terra I guess, or Girlyman now he's back and lord high bigwig).

That certainly doesn't mean that the sisters won't fight beside them, or appreciate the fact that they fight His enemies (and generally do it pretty well), but they're not, as a general rule of thumb, in awe of them, they're just another branch of the many armies of the imperium.

[QUOTE=lord_khaine;22442066]Well, i myself have newer encountered the view of them being slightly lesser than humans in anything i have read. The distant Angels of Death comes up pretty regularly, and the dangeros people who obey no authorithy once in a while among radical inquisitors.

They're repeatedly shown as saying that they're trans-human and aren't part of the human race anymore, but stood outside of it as their protectors, destined to fight for them but never to be part of them. This is shown more in the heresy books though, probably since there was more time for introspection and they were a relatively new thing, still trying to figure out their place in things and with concerns over what would happen to them once the galaxy was conquored and they had no more enemies to fight while the 40k marines don't have time for such thoughts and have no end of enemies to fight.

Makes sense though, if you don't like marines, you're probably not goig to read a bunch of their books and therefore you're going to miss the repeated references to this.

No, actually not. As i said before, i examined each transformation step carefully. There are an awful lot of biological tampering going on. But Gene-seed is about as accurate a description as, i dont know, Machine Spirit.
But it is just the biological equivalent to cyberware. Bioware. The implanted organs hijack their hosts metabolism, changing their growth into the transhuman monsters we all know and dislike (thats a personal and heretical point of view).
All the changes that takes place comes from hormones and implanted organs though, there are no mutations or resculpting of flesh. Thats also the reason for why this needs to be done to kids from what i can see.

Cheese even posted a canon mutation table the other day and every legion, from the posterboys (UM) to the chaos worshippers (SW) suffer some degree of mutation in their geneseed. I would also content that it's not really like cyberware at all since you can generally remove cyberware and, while the function provided by the cyberware is gone, the host remains as they were before implantation. The various organs that marines get shoved into them however drastically change the hosts body (ie, fused ribcage, altered body chemistry etc) and even if they could be removed without killing the host, they wouldn't really be the same as before they got all their extra bits installed and their brain rewired so all their extra functions worked.

I will see if i can find them.

They're actually a nice change of pace from the usual bolter porn (though there are some sections of that in there, it IS a 40k novel after all). There's a couple of spots where it gets a little bogged down, but on the whole, I think that they're definately in the upper half of the 40k books quality-wise (though I might be a bit biased).

[Cikomyr]

Guys. Breath. Lay off the aggressiveness. There is a bit too much vitriole at the moment than it is healthy.

Let's celebrate good things! Like... Hum... The Prima.. err.. Caw.. err..

[LansXero]

Good things like the HH nearing its end; while I'll miss having new books, knowing there is a resolution in sight is awesome, I genuinely thought they were going to drag it out much longer

[Platinius]

This channel will give you all the GRIMDARK you will ever need in your life

Enjoy!