Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XIV: The Emperor Floats Those Who Float Themselves

[Ionbound]

'If you think the Guard give a **** who they hand out flashlights to or who is fed into the meatgrinder, then you don't understand the Guard.' That's perfect. I love that quote, and it's really continued to inspire my quest for decent female heads that fit with the aesthetic of my army.

[Wraith]

...I think that might be a separate issue, involving him, personally. ADB's work has a lot of female and non-white Characters in his books.

Blarg, that's my mistake - I thought he had one long thread and it turned out to be two. Try this one, it's more directly involved in the Female Space Marines stuff.

And yes, I get what you're saying about his attitude - I too approve of, and admire it just as you do.

None the less, I also recognise that Games Workshop's main income comes from making toys to sell to children, and companies in similar markets have been known to silence or even sack people for similarly justified outbursts in the pubic domain. Talking to established fans is one thing, but using the same tone in front of prospective customers - or even neutral members of the community - is more risky. Imagine the uproar that edgy fanboys would have embarked upon if Matt Ward had told someone to GFY, for example?

Again though, they haven't complained and I hope that's a deliberate endorsement rather than an embarrassed silence.

[Cheesegear]

None the less, I also recognise that Games Workshop's main income comes from making toys to sell to children...

Pretty sure there's a separation between GW and Black Library. If there are children reading ADB's novels, I'm going to have some concerns. If there are children reading ADB's Twitter/Facebook, I'd have even more concerns. If we're talking about ADB, I can find some objectionable things in his novels that are worse than a handful of cusses on his social media.

and companies in similar markets have been known to silence or even sack people for similarly justified outbursts in the pubic domain.

It's like reading Song of Ice and Fire, and then getting concerned looks when GRRM starts cussing. You read the books, right? If the public persona - manufactured or not - is objectionable, you probably shouldn't be selling the books.

Imagine the uproar that edgy fanboys would have embarked upon if Matt Ward had told someone to GFY, for example?

Again, I suspect a big difference between GW and BL's policies. If Black Library's target audience is children, I have many, many questions.

[LeSwordfish]

In addition, it would rather harm GW's attempt at progressiveness to look at someone being progressive and publicly go "hey we don't condone this."

[Closet_Skeleton]

Storm Cast were never stated as all male.

They had a perfect excuse to introduce female marines with the Primaris (new process, old rules don't have to apply) and they did not.

GW aren't going to go 'full Marvel'.

With Marvel it feels more like just a re-iteration of the 90s anti-hero versions of various DC characters.

Terrible official gender swaps just goes in the bin with all the other terrible editor mandated nonsense that plagues comic books, it just gets talked about differently because there's no group outside of comic books with a political interest in summer crossovers, costume changes and guys being replaced by violent edgy jerk versions of themselves.

Comic book audiences can tell when the writing team has an actual idea of what to do with a character and when its just shallow trend following. Sometimes they don't consciously notice that's why they don't like the stories, but they can tell and it effects sails.

GW on the other hand, isn't quite as desperate to find an audience as Marvel and aren't really doing much anyway. A few pieces of promising artwork in a codex are not female guard models. Revamping Clan Escher with almost no changes isn't really making much of an effort and the gender balance on both the fantasy elf and dark eldar ranges have been good for decades.

[Wraith]

Pretty sure there's a separation between GW and Black Library. If there are children reading ADB's novels, I'm going to have some concerns. If there are children reading ADB's Twitter/Facebook, I'd have even more concerns. If we're talking about ADB, I can find some objectionable things in his novels that are worse than a handful of cusses on his social media.

Black Library is also the source of GW's comics, graphic novels, novelization of their video games and has - if not still - shared several authors with the White Dwarf staff. It's not such a big leap as one might imagine.

Besides, some people can be weird prudes about these things. I remember some of the complaints about the original Grand Theft Auto game; stealing cars and escaping from the police was barely touched upon, but the SWEARING!? And SOME of the characters even mentioned *whispers* sex sometimes!

I mean, *we* know the difference between company and employee, and employee's work and their opinion, but then I first saw the movie 'Predator' aged 11 because my upbringing had more important things to worry about. It's important to realise that not everyone shares my values and reacts the same eay to comparable, if different, media.

Again, I'm NOT endorsing ADB's censorship or urging GW to stay quiet about any of this; I WANT them to say, "you know what, this guy is dead right" and then applaud them for it. I'm just mildly surprised that he is, thus far, the closest that I've seen to an "official" (note the bunny-ears) statement on the matter.

[EDIT] Similarly, I wasn't being facetious when I said that people have been punished and/or sacked for tirades on social media; it's happened several times in Britain, and once within the company where I work just because the person in question had the company listed as an employer on a public Facebook page. No other reference or mention, but it was enough to "bring disrepute" to the brand and cause disciplinary action.

[Drasius]

I still don't get why people get their panties in a bunch? Tell good stories with strong characters. Doesn't matter if they're male/female/other or some alien variation of that. The only objection I have is changing things to pander to PC whiners. Change the story/character because it's interesting, sure, go nuts, that's called plot and/or character development (as long as you do it well), but don't don't change a story just to appease people complaining that their special snowflake interest isn't the main focus. 40k is a rather large setting, add new characters and tell new stories if you want to expand your appeal to minority groups (yes, 40k IS mainly consumed by 10-40 year old males, regardless of how much anyone wants it to be otherwise).

As for ADB: Yes, people who're well known to work for a company have been reprimanded/fired for saying controvertial things before and it will undoubtedly happen again, but I suspect that there are a number of factors here that means ADB is fairly safe:
- Fairly sure they know him already and accept that that's how he acts (bluntly honest)
- His statement was in support of the current equality trend/hype and as such, it'd look pretty bad for them to reprimand him for supporting everyone getting a fair go
- He's incredibly popular with a large portion of the BL fans and one of their strongest writers
- The vast, vast majority of the comments on his page (the last time I looked a few days ago) were totally in support of his views and most of those also mentioned that's why they like many of his stories

Personally, I think ADB hit the nail fairly firmly on the head - everyone is equal, GTFO if you don't like it.

Edit:

Similarly, I wasn't being facetious when I said that people have been punished and/or sacked for tirades on social media; it's happened several times in Britain, and once within the company where I work just because the person in question had the company listed as an employer on a public Facebook page. No other reference or mention, but it was enough to "bring disrepute" to the brand and cause disciplinary action.

In all my contracts for the last decade (or more), there's been a line in there about me being fired if I say or do anything on any sort of media, social or otherwise, that can even remotely bring the company into disrepute. I'm not sure if that's just a mining thing or if it's common everywhere, but it (combined with background checks) does mean that I strongly limit my presence and comments on social media.

[Cikomyr]

Can i know if there is any genuinely good, out of story, reason to not have female Space Marines?

[Forum Explorer]

So here's hoping that whatever female Characters GW has cooking up for 40K, works out... I'd also like Greyfax to not suck, but that's a Tabletop thread kind of line.

I want a Xenos Inquisitor special character. Also that old Spirit Seer from way back. Also Vect.

[Grim Portent]

Can i know if there is any genuinely good, out of story, reason to not have female Space Marines?

The main one that still matters is that the space marines draw significant inspiration from monastic/knightly orders from the middle ages, which were all male, the same way the sisters of battle draw inspiration from orders of nuns. It reinforces the historical themes that the marines draw on to have them be mono-gendered while having a similar but distinct female counterpart rather than be mixed gender.

Put another way, female space marines already exist in the form of sisters of battle. Marines are monks, sisters are nuns, both are essentially knights. There are differences in which additional themes they draw on, but they both draw heavily on the imagery and terminology of christian religious orders which were traditionally mono-gendered.

EDIT: One thing that did suprise me was that Scions didn't have any female options when their kit was released. The guard seem like the place GW would put in mixed gender units Elf/Eldar style, but I suppose they were using the traditional men with berets image of elite forces as inspiration for the unhelmeted heads. Hopefully future guard kits will include female options.

Also surpised genestealer cultists were all male. Would have though they'd have an easy enough time making a bald female head for the gen 4s.

[Drasius]

Can i know if there is any genuinely good, out of story, reason to not have female Space Marines?

Out of story? An honest guess would be a combination of "because that's how it's been for the last 30 years and people don't like change", "killing off females is still regarded as socially unacceptable by a sizable portion of the consumerbase" and "it's a lot more difficult to sell female man-dollies action figures collectibles player-proxies to young male children who comprise the majority of our target audience".

GW is a business and I suspect that they've weighed the sales gained from fervent pro-female spess muhreen weirdos customers against the backlash from staunch male-only spess muhreen weirdos customers and found the equation doesn't come out in favour of non-EC pink marines. Simple fact is, if you introduce female marines, you might sell a few extra marine boxes and some conversion kits, but you'd also lose far, far more sales from people who lost their minds and quit the game altogether. Everyone else would simply shrug their shoulders and continue with the same purchasing habits they had previously since it wouldn't make a difference to them in the slightest.

[Blackhawk748]

Can i know if there is any genuinely good, out of story, reason to not have female Space Marines?

Because that wouldnt make them happy anyway? Just look at Marvel, they got exactly what they wanted, and what are they doing? Still demanding more.

Frankly they arent even complaining about female Space Marines per se, they are complaining because the faction that gets the most attention is Male only. So the best solution is to simply give the Sisters and other factions more attention, which has been my entire stance from the beginning. It would also help them get more sales, cuz knowing that your faction of choice is gonna get its fair time in the spotlight is a nice.

ALso all of the Monastic order stuff, those themes are actually rather important to those factions core identities.

[Cheesegear]

Can i know if there is any genuinely good, out of story, reason to not have female Space Marines?

Out of story? ...Well, look at Marvel. Forcing diversity onto people who don't want it, only alienates them, which is bad for business. Businesses aren't actually interested in diversity (they aren't), they're interested in making money. If diversity makes them money, they'll milk it for all it's worth. If diversity wouldn't make them money, and would, in fact, lose them money, then they wont do it.

The second reason is pretty much for the same as why plastic Sisters hasn't happened. Why take risks? Even if there are people who want plastic Sisters, do Sisters' players make up enough of your core demo for it to be worth it? Where are all the female action protagonists in movies? Well, market research says males 18-34 don't watch movies with female leads (The classic 'Why is Booker on the cover of Bioshock Infinite?'), so even if there are men who want female-driven action movies, is it worth spending millions of dollars on a movie that your core demo wont even watch? Spending money on a product you know people wont buy is absolutely bad business. A solution to this has been to Go To 01. Take something that already exists, lady-fy it, and then try and tell people that it's exactly the same as it was (an all-female Lord of the Flies would be missing the point...And Mean Girls already exists).

At the end of the day, the only IRL reason to not have female Space Marines basically boils down to 'It's business not to.' Whether or not you agree with the social undertones of that statement is up to you. So, in the age of GW 'giving people what they want', one of the things that the market doesn't want, turns out, is female Space Marines.

Third? And this one's speculation-before-the-fact; For the most part, a big problem is male writers, writing for a male audience. You know they're going to **** it up, and make the problem so much worse (yes, Marvel, I know you know I can see you. Isn't it great how Joss Whedon was actually terrible for women the entire time, even though everyone already knew he was?). So why even try? I don't even remember the last time I saw a female author working for Black Library. Which ties into the second point; Did your medium fail because it had women in it, or did it fail because it was bad? (Ghostbusters. Or, for a thread-relevant example, the difference between the Enforcer trilogy, and the garbage that was Pariah). If it was bad, why was it bad?

The only lady I can think of is Talima Fox (for Forge World) - and shock - she wrote a book about Eldar (IA 11).

[Cikomyr]

Wait. Just so we are clear. Most of you guys gave me at least one explanation that boiled down to "cater to mysogynist sentiments"?

[Cheesegear]

Wait. Just so we are clear. Most of you guys gave me at least one explanation that boiled down to "cater to mysogynist sentiments"?

I think you mean 'Cater to what makes money'. Business doesn't have an agenda, except to make money.

[Cikomyr]

I think you mean 'Cater to what makes money'. Business doesn't have an agenda, except to make money.

Rationalizing it doesn't make it any less true ya know.

[Cheesegear]

Rationalizing it doesn't make it any less true ya know.

Self-Scrubbed.
You can't force a product onto people that they don't want.

I can't bring up Marvel Comics enough times.

1. People want more females in the setting.
2. People don't want female Space Marines.

Rationalise that however you want.

[Ionbound]

Here's the key issue. People are less resistant to badass women than they are to change. Look at the demand for plastic sisters. However, if they think that something that has traditionally been true is being changed, they're inclined to resist that. It's human nature, even when they're dead wrong. Look at the whole female Stormcast thing. Nowhere was it ever stated that Stormcasts had to be male. But since they had gotten the rep as 'fantasy space marines', people applied the same rules and thinking to them, and then got upset when they were wrong. Add onto that the legitimately misogynist sections of the community taking advantage of the distrust of change to rally people to their cause and you have a cluster**** waiting to happen. This is why GW didn't want to risk adding female space marines to the new Primaris generation, and considering how much backlash there has been against Primarises on their own merits, from a business standpoint I'd be hard pressed to say that they were wrong to.

Now, above is all the business calculations that go through the bigwigs at GW's head when they're making plans for the next line of models. They then have to balance that against demand for female inclusivity and the additional potential market vs the market they would be driving away (which absolutely would exist: see cluster**** waiting to happen). Because of the neckbeard-y, grognard-y reputation of the 40k community, they decided that it would be pointless to try to attract women to the hobby as the reputation is of one so toxic to women that very few would be willing to take a risk on playing the game even if they did feel included by the company.

[Wraith]

Wait. Just so we are clear. Most of you guys gave me at least one explanation that boiled down to "cater to mysogynist sentiments"?

Pretty much. GW are damned if they do - because fanboy manchilds will whine and threaten to abandon the company in droves - and damned if they don't - because not being inclusive is obviously a wretched and stupid thing.

So they're choosing the one that guarantees them a stable income by selling what they know people will buy, rather than investing time and money into new stuff that - inclusivity be damned - might not be a profit maker, while also allowing them to slowly evolve their setting over several years (and thus, several periods of budget announcements) to make sure what they're doing is viable, rather than dumping it all in one go.

While I think it's obvious that most of us would like to see them make up more ground when it comes to better representation in their models and novels, I similarly don't blame GW for being very careful about it. They must realise that their track record on the subject is not a great one, and the last thing that any of us wants is to see them blunder around using some fashionable Tumblr-esque definition of diversity in the most cringeworthy manner, doing far more harm than good to both themselves and the cause as a whole.

Because of the neckbeard-y, grognard-y reputation of the 40k community, they decided that it would be pointless to try to attract women to the hobby as the reputation is of one so toxic to women that very few would be willing to take a risk on playing the game even if they did feel included by the company.

This is what I was trying to get at, though Ionbound was more eloquent. Games Workshop has scrubbed it's own Facebook page and various forums because the vocal minority of its' community are morons and a******s; dropping a whole new generation of new players into such a cesspit will result in backlash and hostility from both sides, and as unpleasant as it is to acknowledge it, GW needs to detoxify its' own fanbase - a process that will likely take years - before they can safely introduce more mainstream ideas in a way that is not going to alienate either side further.

That's... a much more bleak interpretation of the situation than I originally expected to be talking about, but as I've gone along I can't help but feel it's an accurate one. The sort of people who rage against Female Space Marines are douchebags, and GW ideally needs to get rid of them BEFORE introducing that range, so that the rest of us can enjoy them in peace and without lasting memories of "The Femarine Wars" or whatever it gets to be known as.

[Ionbound]

I'd also like to point out here that the reputation matters whether or not it's actually true. For example, my local 40k scene is great, and I highly doubt that if a woman was interested in playing, there would be any comments, or at least any that wouldn't be rectified by the group and store owner providing a swift kick out the door. However, because of the reputation that said vocal minority of morons has given the game, anyone who isn't already steeped in nerd culture would be really unlikely to give the game a shot.

[Cheesegear]

So they're choosing the one that guarantees them a stable income by selling what they know people will buy, rather than investing time and money into new stuff that - inclusivity be damned - might not be a profit maker, while also allowing them to slowly evolve their setting over several years (and thus, several periods of budget announcements) to make sure what they're doing is viable, rather than dumping it all in one go.

QFT.

While I think it's obvious that most of us would like to see them make up more ground when it comes to better representation in their models and novels, I similarly don't blame GW for being very careful about it.

Nailed it.

and the last thing that any of us wants is to see them blunder around using some fashionable Tumblr-esque definition of diversity in the most cringeworthy manner

"Buy this thing because diversity!"
...So, you're using diversity as a profit device? That doesn't sound like good faith. Some people might see through that, and be offended, rather than on your side - even the group you're actually catering to.
"If you don't buy it you're a [hater]."
...But is your product any good?
"Doesn't matter."
...Well played.

[Cikomyr]

I'd also like to point out here that the reputation matters whether or not it's actually true. For example, my local 40k scene is great, and I highly doubt that if a woman was interested in playing, there would be any comments, or at least any that wouldn't be rectified by the group and store owner providing a swift kick out the door. However, because of the reputation that said vocal minority of morons has given the game, anyone who isn't already steeped in nerd culture would be really unlikely to give the game a shot.

Even if the one making the comments is a regular customer of ministures worth 100s of dollars?

We just agreed that catering to mysogynist is good business. Moreso than opposing it anyway.

[Cheesegear]

Even if the one making the comments is a regular customer of ministures worth 100s of dollars?

My store would - and has.

[Ionbound]

There's also a difference between expelling someone from an environment where they are actively being toxic, and large-scale business decisions at the high design levels.

[Drasius]

Wait. Just so we are clear. Most of you guys gave me at least one explanation that boiled down to "cater to mysogynist sentiments"?

I suspect that you're reading what you want to read in the replies rather than what's being said. If you want to complain that there's no female marines, then complain directly (or, ya know, don't - since we seem to keep going down this road with neither side getting anywhere), don't hide behind 'round about arguments.

I do find it amusing that the same argument could be had for "why should there be female spess muhreens?" and then complaining that the answers (if there were any) only panders to over the top PC jingoists.

Either way, you're not going to get a "real" answer out of anyone but GW and $10 says that even if you did ask them and even if they did give you an answer (which they almost certainly wouldn't), you'd still be unhappy with it. Bottom line, GW is a business and the aim of a business is to make money. You don't make money by trying to sell the majority of your customerbase things they don't want or making radical changes to the things that they have already shown that they do want without good reason. Female marines would be the "new coke" of GW.

[Drasius]

Even if the one making the comments is a regular customer of ministures worth 100s of dollars?

We just agreed that catering to mysogynist is good business. Moreso than opposing it anyway.

My store would - and has.

Same here for my old local. Being a ****head isn't tolerated. You can think whatever you like as loud as you like, but when you start actually saying things out loud that actively make others uncomfortable, you get either get a warning or ejected depending on severity and repetition.

Edit: We agreed that catering to your fanbase is a good business idea and, generally speaking, most people in a gaming store aren't complete knobs (there's always one though...). I also strongly suspect that you've never met a true misogynist if you think people who don't think GW should alter its policy on marines qualify for the term.

[Forum Explorer]

Even if the one making the comments is a regular customer of ministures worth 100s of dollars?

Pretty much. As a small business owner, you do NOT want the heat that a bad reputation brings down on you, else that might be your only customer soon enough. And most hobby stores are small businesses.

[Cheesegear]

I suspect that you're reading what you want to read in the replies rather than what's being said.

I scrubbed myself. But that is essentially what I said.
Missing the big picture, in favour of a small piece of the picture that fits the narrative you want to read. [Insert real world example that almost definitely gets me Modded.]

[deuterio12]

'If you think the Guard give a **** who they hand out flashlights to or who is fed into the meatgrinder, then you don't understand the Guard.' That's perfect. I love that quote, and it's really continued to inspire my quest for decent female heads that fit with the aesthetic of my army.

Irony is that whoever wrote that quote hasn't bothered reading actual guard novels.

At the top of my head, Ice Guard has a team of Valhallan Ice Warriors infiltrate a chaos stronhold in what's basically a suicide mission, and there's a single woman in them.

The only reason she's in the guard in the first place is because she's sterile. Since the Valhallan Ice Warriors homeworld sends pretty much only men with flashlights to the meatgrinter and the women are kept back to pop more guardsmen. The lone guardswoman feels deeply ashamed that she cannot pop fresh guardsmen and muses that even then she had to insist to the recruiters to let her get a flashlight and be sent to the frontlines, because it's deeply ingrained in the Valhallan Ice Warriors mentality that women should stay behind in their homes.

[LeSwordfish]

Irony is that whoever wrote that quote hasn't bothered reading actual guard novels.

At the top of my head, Ice Guard has a team of Valhallan Ice Warriors infiltrate a chaos stronhold in what's basically a suicide mission, and there's a single woman in them.

The only reason she's in the guard in the first place is because she's sterile. Since the Valhallan Ice Warriors homeworld sends pretty much only men with flashlights to the meatgrinter and the women are kept back to pop more guardsmen. The lone guardswoman feels deeply ashamed that she cannot pop fresh guardsmen and muses that even then she had to insist to the recruiters to let her get a flashlight and be sent to the frontlines, because it's deeply ingrained in the Valhallan Ice Warriors mentality that women should stay behind in their homes.

Meanwhile in another series of books, there are entire regiments of valhallan guardswomen, none of whom are mentioned as being there for any reason other than their martial skills. The most grimdumb thing in the universe is not necessarily canon.