Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XIV: The Emperor Floats Those Who Float Themselves

[Drasius]

Irony is that whoever wrote that quote hasn't bothered reading actual guard novels.

At the top of my head, Ice Guard has a team of Valhallan Ice Warriors infiltrate a chaos stronhold in what's basically a suicide mission, and there's a single woman in them.

The only reason she's in the guard in the first place is because she's sterile. Since the Valhallan Ice Warriors homeworld sends pretty much only men with flashlights to the meatgrinter and the women are kept back to pop more guardsmen. The lone guardswoman feels deeply ashamed that she cannot pop fresh guardsmen and muses that even then she had to insist to the recruiters to let her get a flashlight and be sent to the frontlines, because it's deeply ingrained in the Valhallan Ice Warriors mentality that women should stay behind in their homes.

As usual, your example is easily trounced by half a dozen other examples of the exact opposite of your claim. One of the more memorable ones that spring to mind (and is kinda relevant since it's an ADB story) is that of one of the World Eaters naval commanders, Lotara, who commanded Angron's warship and had his respect. Respect. From. Agron. That's kinda a big deal (go find and listen/read "Conqueror", it's pretty good). Another that is more commonly known and cited is the merging of the 2 single sex regiments in the Cain novels (Said groups are both Valhallan Ice Warrior units.
) where 1 is all male and the other is all female (both fairly common, though mixed isn't overly uncommon either). The commands are totally trashed and there's very little difference in actual experience between the male and female commander. The female takes command (and rank) and the male simply shrugs and settles in to XO duties and they become a solid command group.

If you were going to make a big deal out of women being baby makers, you should have pointed to Kreigers, but then that'd just bring up up a bunch of different arguments. Guard don't care about which set of pink bits you've been issued, as long as you can hold a lasgun, yell "Sir, Yes Sir!" at the top of your lungs and die for the Emperor 'cause you're all meat for the grinder.

[Forum Explorer]

Irony is that whoever wrote that quote hasn't bothered reading actual guard novels.

At the top of my head, Ice Guard has a team of Valhallan Ice Warriors infiltrate a chaos stronhold in what's basically a suicide mission, and there's a single woman in them.

The only reason she's in the guard in the first place is because she's sterile. Since the Valhallan Ice Warriors homeworld sends pretty much only men with flashlights to the meatgrinter and the women are kept back to pop more guardsmen. The lone guardswoman feels deeply ashamed that she cannot pop fresh guardsmen and muses that even then she had to insist to the recruiters to let her get a flashlight and be sent to the frontlines, because it's deeply ingrained in the Valhallan Ice Warriors mentality that women should stay behind in their homes.

Beyond what other people have already said about said story being contradicted by many (even most) other guard novels there's also this:

Manpower is the one resource that the Imperium simply doesn't care about. It has less Lasguns then it has people to use them. Valhalla in particular has overpopulation problems. There are people aplenty, they don't need to enforce increased breeding. Conscripts are a thing because they can afford to throw bodies at a problem to soak up enemy fire.

On a side note, can you tell me what story that was? It sounds really bad, and I don't want to pick it up by accident.

[Cheesegear]

Irony is that whoever wrote that quote hasn't bothered reading actual guard novels.

...The person who wrote it was ADB. If you're going to question him, and his knowledge of the fluff...I don't even know what you're on about. Of the people who get to say anything they want regarding 40K, ADB is one of them.

On a side note, can you tell me what story that was? It sounds really bad, and I don't want to pick it up by accident.

Ice Guard by Steve Lyons.

[thethird]

Switching the issue.

I'm bored. Apparently the "Dark Imperium" novel has a lot of whole-setting exposition. Anyone for a Lets Read?

I picked the book up yesterday. I'm enjoying the read. (I was looking for the new book with Alpha Legion in it, couldn't find it but got "Dark Imperium" and said why not.)

[lord_khaine]

Meanwhile in another series of books, there are entire regiments of valhallan guardswomen, none of whom are mentioned as being there for any reason other than their martial skills. The most grimdumb thing in the universe is not necessarily canon.

Unfortunately those grimdumb things are also not always not canon (that became a clunky sentence). So without anything official to lean towards then its kinda hard to settle on a official version.

All this did make me realise something though. One of the candidates for most influential person in the recent 40k history is female. And well, Celestine has of course gotten a lot of recent spotlight, but im actually thinking about Yvraine here.

She has been instrumental in saving 2 craftworlds.
Created the seed for a new god in the form of the Yncarne.
Begun a new faction.
Taken part in ressurecting the most reasonable leader the imperium could currently be given (thereby snowballing whats currently taking place there)
And to top it all off stolen a doomsday artifact from Mortarions personal keep.

I can honestly only think of Abbadon when it comes to people with a bigger impact on recent history.

[Drasius]

...most influential person in the recent 40k history ... but im actually thinking about Yvraine here.

Xenos aren't people.

[lord_khaine]

Xenos aren't people.

Good point, that eleminates Abbadon, suddenly Yvraine is the most influential person in the last millenia of the 40k Universe.

[Cheesegear]

Xenos aren't people.

Specifically, Xenos aren't Space Marines. There are a bunch of - well, I think 'influential' is the word - female Characters in 40K. In Gathering Storm alone, there was Celestine, Greyfax and Yvraine, and I know Greyfax is being written about, because Eye of Night came out, and the only reason I didn't buy it (I own most of the audio dramas), is because with a title like Eye of Night, and Greyfax on the cover, I feel like I already know what the story is about.

Side note; If someone has Eye of Night and it isn't about Greyfax stealing Abaddon's artefact, let me know.

[Drasius]

Good point, that eleminates Abbadon, suddenly Yvraine is the most influential person in the last millenia of the 40k Universe.

Still a Xeno, still not a person.

[Cikomyr]

By the way, i didn't meant to imply anything regarding anyone here. The latest post regarding the hypothetical was to see the level of sticking to principles people have witnessed, and it was a bit heartwarming to see how decent you people have witnessed Hobby store owners act.

(I dont really hang out in wargame miniature hobbynstores, more of a general board game)

[Brookshw]

Xenos aren't people.

Little early to be shopping thread titles

[Cikomyr]

Little early to be shopping thread titles

Guns dont kill People; guns kills filthy Xenos?

[lord_khaine]

Still a Xeno, still not a person.

Well, thankfully as a Xenos your vote isnt counted when it comes to determine who are a Xenos

[Drasius]

Well, thankfully as a Xenos your vote isnt counted when it comes to determine who are a Xenos

Unfortunately, the setting really does revolve around the Imperium, so your sneaky Xenos doublespeak trickery won't fly here.

[Cikomyr]

Unfortunately, the setting really does revolve around the Imperium, so your sneaky Xenos doublespeak trickery won't fly here.

Also.. "vote"? Take away these silly heretical views right away. The Imperium works on a very simple system: One Man, One Vote

The Emperor is the Man. He gets the Vote.

[Cheesegear]

The Emperor is the Man. He gets the Vote.

Well, no he's not, The Emperor didn't do anything in the Imperium as we know it. As previously mentioned, by the time we got to 30K proper, the Emperor had done everything that he was ever going to do. The reason that he made Horus, Warmaster, and gave Malcador unchecked power, was that the Emperor was finished with the Great Crusade, and he was going to move onto other projects.

After the Ullanor Crusade, The Emperor delegated everything to Malcador and Horus...And Horus delegated to Malcador.

After the Heresy, Lord Commander Guilliman got the High Lords together, and that lasted for two thousand years.
Koorland/Slaughter becomes Lord Commander, and executes the Ecclesiarch. He runs the joint now...Then he dies immediately.
Maximus Thane becomes The Man, and gives power to Vangorich. "Vangorich, whatever you do, don't become a dictator."
...Vangorich immediately becomes a dictator and Maximus Thane comes back from his 80 year Crusade to shoot him in the face.
The Ultramarines then call up 50 Chapter Masters (were there really that many Chapters by 3rd Founding? I can't be arsed to check), and 50 Space Marines decide/vote who the new 12 High Lords are going to be.
That goes pretty good until another Ecclesiarch - Vandire - decides that he's the boss.
Imperial Fist Successor Chapters launch the Terran Crusade, and with the Brides of the Emperor, execute that dude, and High Lords regain power again.

...And since I know there's a possible Let's Read in the works...

Spoiler: Guilliman Spoilers

Show

Guilliman shows up, declares himself the new Lord Commander of the Imperium, except he doesn't like that title, and renames himself the Imperial Regent, which was eerily similar to Malcador's title, as if Guilliman is somehow on Malcador's level. Guilliman, in power, removes almost half the High Lords and replaces them with people he likes and/or are work-withable.

Emperor hasn't (successfully) done **** for the Imperium since before Ullanor.

[khadgar567]

And here we go again. Heresy to golden throne. Exterminatus for holly terra

[hamishspence]

The Ultramarines then call up 50 Chapter Masters (were there really that many Chapters by 3rd Founding?)

As of the Second Founding, a point is made of how, despite the Grey Knights being "Chapter 666" when they were inserted into the Second Founding list, there were only 400 chapters around.

[Cikomyr]

But everything that happened since 30K is occuring because of authority invested BY the Emperor in some people's hands.

[Blackhawk748]

I would also like to point out that the Imperium is stupidly massive and doesn't much care how your plant is run, so long as the taxes come in and heresy is at a minimum. So you could totally have a democratic style government on a planet. It is unlikely though

[Cikomyr]

I would also like to point out that the Imperium is stupidly massive and doesn't much care how your plant is run, so long as the taxes come in and heresy is at a minimum. So you could totally have a democratic style government on a planet. It is unlikely though

Oh, i totally get that.

But again--> "As long as taxes are paid". Who determine these taxes? The Administratum, who are the long descendants of those initially appointed by Emprah.

[thethird]

Oh, i totally get that.

But again--> "As long as taxes are paid". Who determine these taxes? The Administratum, who are the long descendants of those initially appointed by Emprah.

Sigh

But everything that happened since 30K is occuring because of authority invested BY the Emperor in some people's hands.

I preferred this statement when I thought it was about the Emperor naming Horus Warmaster.

[Grim Portent]

Oh, i totally get that.

But again--> "As long as taxes are paid". Who determine these taxes? The Administratum, who are the long descendants of those initially appointed by Emprah.

Other than a small handful most Administratum positions are probably not held by anyone descended from the original staff of the Administratum. Between natural death, murder, wars, the gaining and losing of territory, demotion, dismissal, rebellion and the myriad other things that remove mid to high level adepts I would expect most of the original hereditary positions have changed hands several times each.

The core structure and purpose is broadly the same as it was when Malcador was it's leader, but the actual functioning is vastly divorced from the original intention and design.

[Cikomyr]

Other than a small handful most Administratum positions are probably not held by anyone descended from the original staff of the Administratum. Between natural death, murder, wars, the gaining and losing of territory, demotion, dismissal, rebellion and the myriad other things that remove mid to high level adepts I would expect most of the original hereditary positions have changed hands several times each.

The core structure and purpose is broadly the same as it was when Malcador was it's leader, but the actual functioning is vastly divorced from the original intention and design.

I guess "descendant" wasnt the right word. But those currently.in position of power were appointed by those who were appointed by those who were appointed.. etc... By the Emperor

Ultimately, all chains of powers in the Imperium comes from the Emperor. Its just that he never actually renewed that authority in 10,000 years. Think of a bureaucracy that never had to worry about a change in government for 10,000 years.

[LansXero]

Wasnt the current structure put in place post-heresy as a stopgap measure due to the emperor being crippled?

[Cikomyr]

Wasnt the current structure put in place post-heresy as a stopgap measure due to the emperor being crippled?

Who put it in place?

The people the Emprah/Malcador appointed? ;)

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

By that logic, George Washington and co are still the leaders of the United States, and William the Conqueror is still responsible for the latest budget to pass Canadian Parliament. Someone isn't responsible for modern political decisions because they appointed the guys who appointed the guys who etc etc etc.

[Forum Explorer]

Who put it in place?

The people the Emprah/Malcador appointed? ;)

No, it was Guilliman, who was supposed to be going off killing things. He also broke up the Legions and Imperial Army, and did a bunch of other stuff. And he was never appointed by the Emperor.

[Cikomyr]

By that logic, George Washington and co are still the leaders of the United States, and William the Conqueror is still responsible for the latest budget to pass Canadian Parliament. Someone isn't responsible for modern political decisions because they appointed the guys who appointed the guys who etc etc etc.

That is not true, actually. The United States and Canada have regular elections to determine the legislative and executive branch. Authority is regularly re-affirmed, with people at the top being appointed by those who are elected.

Nothing ever reconfirmed the authority of the Administratum, except the Administratum.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

That is not true, actually. The United States and Canada have regular elections to determine the legislative and executive branch. Authority is regularly re-affirmed, with people at the top being appointed by those who are elected.

Nothing ever reconfirmed the authority of the Administratum, except the Administratum.

Ok, that's true in the US, but in the Westminster systems technically all elected officials serve at the pleasure of the Crown. So it is literally true in that case. Additionally, those I mentioned designed the systems under which elections are held, or designed the systems that elected the people who reformed the systems under which elections are held, or etc. Alternatively, let's look at other Imperial systems. Would you say that the 660 BC Emperor Jimmu of Japan is responsible for the decision to invade Japan in 1931? Or that Muhammad ibn Sa'ud, the founder of what is known as the First Sa'udi State, is the only man whose opinion on oil drilling in Najd matters? No, you wouldn't, because that's ridiculous.

The point is, you say that despite several coups and the summary dismissal and re-working of the structure of power in the Imperium, that the Emperor holds the real power.

Your argument is that the Emperor controlled the High Lords of Terra, even though they were appointed by Guilliman. Who appointed Guilliman? The High Lords of Terra. 13 people here appointed each other to rule the world, and at no point did the Emperor say "These 12 are the Imperial Senate" or "This guy is Lord Commander". Guilliman reshapes the Empire because of his military power, not anything to do with the Emperor. If you're arguing that "whoever appoints the first dude is eternally in charge", then you still don't have any basis to say that about the Emperor. Of course, this is still ridiculous, because the general idea that someone who founded a system is still in charge of a system and the only one whose opinion matters long after they're incapable of having an opinion is frankly ridiculous, as shown above.