Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XIV: The Emperor Floats Those Who Float Themselves

[Brookshw]

That is not true, actually. The United States and Canada have regular elections to determine the legislative and executive branch. Authority is regularly re-affirmed, with people at the top being appointed by those who are elected.

Nothing ever reconfirmed the authority of the Administratum, except the Administratum.

Ehhhhhh.....arguments about constitutionalism and the intent of the founding fathers is still very much
a part of the modern conversation, I don't think the absolute divorce is entirely accurate. Not to say it's a great argument, but it has some legs under it here in the 41st millennia.

[LansXero]

Ehhhhhh.....arguments about constitutionalism and the intent of the founding fathers is still very much
a part of the modern conversation, I don't think the absolute divorce is entirely accurate. Not to say it's a great argument, but it has some legs under it here in the 41st millennia.

Yeah but its more akin to the US government getting slaughtered during the Civil War and then some General comes back and builds a Monarchy out of whoever is left alive, because he has troops and nobody else does. So there is no direct line from the founding Emperor to the current Imperium.

Even if the High Lords and stuff might've survived for a while, didn the master of assassins killed them all off anyways and replaced them with people of his choosing? I mean, its very very hard to see where the notion of a unbroken line of succession all the way from pre-heresy days comes from.

[Brookshw]

Yeah but its more akin to the US government getting slaughtered during the Civil War and then some General comes back and builds a Monarchy out of whoever is left alive, because he has troops and nobody else does. So there is no direct line from the founding Emperor to the current Imperium.

Even if the High Lords and stuff might've survived for a while, didn the master of assassins killed them all off anyways and replaced them with people of his choosing? I mean, its very very hard to see where the notion of a unbroken line of succession all the way from pre-heresy days comes from.

But does that really undermine whether there's been consistent institutional authority that has existed through-out? Colonies or what have you that became cut off are definitely a different category, but the Imperium as a whole does seem to have maintained through a consistent set of political structures. Admittedly, there have been some disruptions (Goge Vandire comes to mind), but it seems hard to point to a time where the consistency became entirely disconnected and a new set of authority entirely replaced what was pre-existing (unless we want to argue Guilliman as he seemed pretty gung-ho to purge whatever he thought needed purging, a possible argument that authority was reinvested via an external source).

I guess, what's the criteria we're using to determine whether the institutional authority was disrupted, and to what extent the disruption needs to have impacted things before we think the institution itself was separated from that which came before? The Heresy was one answer I think, but personally that seems odd as the same institutions ultimately seemed to have maintained throughout.

[LansXero]

But does that really undermine whether there's been consistent institutional authority that has existed through-out? Colonies or what have you that became cut off are definitely a different category, but the Imperium as a whole does seem to have maintained through a consistent set of political structures. Admittedly, there have been some disruptions (Goge Vandire comes to mind), but it seems hard to point to a time where the consistency became entirely disconnected and a new set of authority entirely replaced what was pre-existing (unless we want to argue Guilliman as he seemed pretty gung-ho to purge whatever he thought needed purging, a possible argument that authority was reinvested via an external source).

I guess, what's the criteria we're using to determine whether the institutional authority was disrupted, and to what extent the disruption needs to have impacted things before we think the institution itself was separated from that which came before? The Heresy was one answer I think, but personally that seems odd as the same institutions ultimately seemed to have maintained throughout.

They... didn't?

There was no Imperial Regent (while a person, it was also an Institution) after Malcador got dusted.

There was no Emperor; nobody ascended as Emperor either. Its like when a President dies, you just carry on with the Congress alone and never elect another president again; then you can't say its the same government, as its core institution simply dissapeared.

There was no Warmaster either (which WAS an Imperial Institution, as it was created by the Emperor to control the Legions).

There were no Legions anymore either, and no expeditionary fleets. Secondarily, no more remembrancers.

There was no Mechanicum either (as the 40k version is a very different thing)

Then, the Imperial Truth, which was the fundamental underlaying doctrine behind the 30k Imperium, was replaced by the Imperial Cult and the Eclessiarchy.

In which way can you say there is a continuity when the government (individual vs comitee), military, religious, scientific and political institutions all changed?

[Voidhawk]

As has been very eloquently pointed out: if you want to blame it all on one man, then Guilliman rather than the Emperor is the Primogenitor of the 40k Imperium. It was Guilliman's decisions after the Horus Heresy shaped the galaxy more than any other. And recently he woke up, looked at where it had led, and basically said "I ****ed up bad, I shouldn't have given humans so much autonomy."

We never saw what the Emperor intended for the galaxy because he never got that far. What we do know, is that everything we think of as The Imperium - Navigators, Astropaths, Ad-Mech, even the Space Marines - was all just a stop-gap, used to zerg-rush the galaxy after the birth of Slaanesh so that no-one else could get a toehold first. What he probably wanted was a webway-linked civilisation with more pyschic power than the Eldar but that wouldn't fall the same way, and could master the warp without being mastered by it. But his dream fell over before it began, because he severely underestimated the other players at the game table.

[Brookshw]

In which way can you say there is a continuity when the government (individual vs comitee), military, religious, scientific and political institutions all changed?

Gonna preface this with admission of limited knowledge (we can't all be Wraith after all).

Didn't the administratum, arbites and IG largely carry on in the same manner they previously existed (less, perhaps, certain figure heads)? Doesn't seem like the loss of a figure head undermines the underlying institutional authority, as parallel from US politics, losing the speaker of the house doesn't mean you no longer have that house. Ecclesiarch definitely is new, no argument here, but it didn't unsurp a preexisting institution as much as created its own supplemantary institution (albeit kicking out an older creed). SM's may have changed their structure but largely retained their autonomy and role. Mechanicum, honestly I just don't recall much about how they exactly changed but I think people have said substantially. I don't think I can reasonably comment on them.

Seems to my limited knowledge that most key institutions have remained. Even w/o Emps, largely the continued inst's already had certain internal authority and power so his dropping out didn't change much directly for them (indirectly is another matter).

[LansXero]

Seems to my limited knowledge that most key institutions have remained. Even w/o Emps, largely the continued inst's already had certain internal authority and power so his dropping out didn't change much directly for them (indirectly is another matter).

The most key institution in an Empire is that of the Emperor itself, and it ended when Horus killed the, well, Emperor.

But it wasn't the death of the Emperor that changed the Imperium by itself; it was the Heresy and the long years of war, strife and also the death of trust in mankind from one another (which is a subject that comes up very often in Heresy novels).

Before Horus, there was no 'falling to chaos' to police (there probably was, but it wasn't prosecuted as such, as the concept of 'Chaos' was taboo), there was no traitor guard or traitor marines either. When a world broke Compliance, it got an Expeditionary Fleet sent to it, not the Imperial Guard / Navy / Arbites. Entirely different things with different organization and purposes.

Astartes were never independent pre-heresy. Thats what Guilliman creates when he breaks the Legions: autonomy for small cells of Astartes so that if a few turn rogue, it doesnt mean thousands of super-soldiers are lost, just the few rotten seeds.

The administratum probably carried on the same way, but thats how it goes for bean counters; there arent that many ways to count beans anyways. But its like saying that because a country went from full-on Communism to Democracy, that because they kept the same coin and measuring units its still the same set of institutions.

[Cheesegear]

Nothing ever reconfirmed the authority of the Administratum, except the Administratum.

It's like you didn't even read the timeline of the High Lords.

A Space Marine took power.
A Space Marine took power, gave it back freely, then took it back by force.
50 Space Marines voted on who the High Lords were going to be.
Space Marines had a Terran Crusade to take back power.
Space Marines reinstated the High Lords.
Guilliman took over.

The High Lords are only in power as long as Space Marines let them.

[Wraith]

Didn't the administratum, arbites and IG largely carry on in the same manner they previously existed....

The Administratum, yes; in function and identity, virtually identical as it was in the 31st millennium. It does, however, suffer from the same level of stagnation and ritual as the Ad.Mech. Once, it was the repository of knowledge for an expanding empire, cataloguing and making accessible the accumulated knowledge of a thousand expeditionary fleets....
But now? Why do we keep a count of people with blue eyes vs. brown eyes and why that has an effect on the production yield of class C agri-worlds? Don't know, but we'll be damned if we're going to stop after 10,000 years! It's a classic example of following orders to the letter, rather than the spirit - the Administratum accumulates knowledge, and since the Emperor no one has told them to stop, so that's what they do to the most broad extreme.

The Arbites, yes. They've been an Adeptus since the Great Crusade and they obey the same mandate; to enforce Imperial Law. That law has of course changed greatly over the centuries, from the Imperial Truth to the enforced doctrine of the Imperial Cult, but such changes happen in any civilisation over decades, let alone millennia, and their methods and organisation have barely reflected that beyond the increase in the number of heads they crack every day.

The IG has changed significantly; during the Crusade the Guard and Navy were just one entity, the Imperial Army, and it was fractured in the same way as the Astartes Legions, for the same reasons, by the same person. Similarly, the Astartes were formally removed from the Guard/Navy's command structure - an Admiral or General would have to be stupid to refuse a direct request from a Chapter Master, BUT they can do so if they really want to because it can ONLY be a request, rather than a demand.
In some places - like Ultramar - this has made virtually no difference; the "Cult of Guilliman" means that everyone in the 500 Worlds are essentially the same army in practice if not on paper. In others though? Very different story; at Armageddon, even Helbrecht and Grimaldus would not have thought to make demands of Commissar Yarrick, who was the established commander of the Guard in both conflicts.

SM's may have changed their structure but largely retained their autonomy and role.

Broadly true, but as LanXero pointed out, in the 41st millennium their autonomy is "official".
During the Great Crusade, the Chapter Master/equivalent rank was essentially the de-facto commander of a fleet with a force roughly equivalent to a very large post-Codex Chapter and acted as he saw fit.... Though the difference is that he would ultimately answer to his Primarch who eventually answered to the Emperor. Now, that Chapter Master has approximately the same force, but there's no middle-man between him and what he perceives to be the will of the Emperor. For a Loyalist Chapter this makes virtually no difference to the outcome - they obey their founding maxim and fight evil. For a renegade or traitorous Chapter, it similarly makes little to no difference; once they have broken faith with the Emperor, they do what they want, which is no different to the Sons of Horus et al.

Mechanicum, honestly I just don't recall much about how they exactly changed

Very, very different in the 41st millennium, in that there is no such thing as the Mechanicum in the Imperium of Man.

There's an audiobook called 'The Binary Succession' by David Annandale which details what happens, so I won't spoil it fully. Broadly speaking however, during the Heresy the Mechanicum splits in two; there's the Loyalists who, including the genuinely appointed Fabricator-General, flee Mars and become refugees on Terra, and there's the Traitors led by a guy called Kelbor-Hal who kept control of Holy Mars. The Loyalists on Terra quickly grew restless - losing control of Mars is SERIOUS BUSINESS, because as far as they are concerned the guy in control of Mars should be the "real" Fabricator-General, and if that's the case, why are they waiting on Terra while the Council makes them empty promises and humiliates them by making them wait and wait for the retaliatory invasion of their homeland?
It all came to a head when the Loyalists demanded, and ultimately were granted, the right to form an Adeptus Mechanicus - defined by Imperial Decree to be the One True Cult of the Machine God and rightful heirs to Mars, with their own seat at the Council and thus a say in how the Imperium should be run.

So anytime you see something referred to as 'Mechanicum', you're technically hearing about Team Evil. In the Imperium there is only the Adeptus Mechanicus. Their beliefs and practices haven't changed a great deal, but officially they are a splinter-sect of the original group who first formed an alliance with the Omnissiah in the 30th millennium.

(we can't all be Wraith after all).

That is either a carefully aimed barb slung directly at my cold, shrivelled, know-it-all heart, or the sweetest thing that anyone has said about me in days. You big lug

[Cheesegear]

There's an audiobook called 'The Binary Succession' by David Annandale which details what happens...

I feel like Annandale is the one to watch. McNeill bailed to go work for Riot Games (yes, that Riot), and Abnett hasn't written anything in quite some time. I don't count I Am Slaughter, 'cause it wasn't even that good (and Annandale did the heavy lifting during The Beast Arises). We've still got ADB though. I think he loves the setting too much to leave anytime soon (as opposed to Abnett who pretty much refused to engage and wrote 'his own thing' the whole time).

I think with McNeill gone, and Abnett...Doing whatever he's doing...Our 'new kids', Annandale and Guy Haley will be the dudes to read for the forseeable future.

...And Josh Reynolds, if you care about Sigmar.

EDIT: Whatever happened to Chris Wraight?

[LansXero]

During the Great Crusade, the Chapter Master/equivalent rank was essentially the de-facto commander of a fleet with a force roughly equivalent to a very large post-Codex Chapter and acted as he saw fit.... Though the difference is that he would ultimately answer to his Primarch who eventually answered to the Emperor.

Didnt they also respond to their First Captain before the Primarch though?

[Blackhawk748]

I feel like Annandale is the one to watch. McNeill bailed to go work for Riot Games (yes, that Riot), and Abnett hasn't written anything in quite some time. I don't count I Am Slaughter, 'cause it wasn't even that good (and Annandale did the heavy lifting during The Beast Arises). We've still got ADB though. I think he loves the setting too much to leave anytime soon (as opposed to Abnett who pretty much refused to engage and wrote 'his own thing' the whole time).

I think with McNeill gone, and Abnett...Doing whatever he's doing...Our 'new kids', Annandale and Guy Haley will be the dudes to read for the forseeable future.

...And Josh Reynolds, if you care about Sigmar.

EDIT: Whatever happened to Chris Wraight?

Wow, didnt realize McNeil bailed. Why did he go to Riot? They butchered their own backstory and have rather minimal fluff last time i checked.

[Cheesegear]

Didnt they also respond to their First Captain before the Primarch though?

Chapter Master outranks First Captain. Marius Gage was even First Chapter Master.

[Wraith]

Didnt they also respond to their First Captain before the Primarch though?

Broadly yes, but it varies from Legion to Legion. In the Death Guard, Typhus was in charge of everything when Mortarion wasn't around; in the Luna Wolves it was Abaddon, though he shared at least some of his influence and confidence with the Mournival.

In the World Eaters, it was Kharne - Captain of the 8th and Angron's equirry - who did all the work, because the actual First Captain Delvarus was a meathead with aptitude for nothing other than fighting. And in the Word Bearers, on paper it was Kor Phaeron but the nature of that Legion meant that in practice there was a persistant struggle between him, Erebus and Argul Tal as they each jockeyed for Lorgar's favour (though in Argul Tal's case, he just wanted to be a good son; the other two genuinely believed that they knew best for the Legion even over their Primarch).

Generally the Loyalists used the more traditional method, though always there were exceptions. The Thousand Sons were united under Ahriman, whereas the Great Companies of the Space Wolves tended to do their own things rather than only accept the Captain of the First blindly. They showed him respect, of course, be he wasn't of "their pack", and their own lords tended to take precedent.

[Drasius]

EDIT: Whatever happened to Chris Wraight?

The wolves got what they deserved mauled and nobody cares about White Scars.

Also, he wrote carrion throne recently and I thoroughly enjoyed that.

[Cheesegear]

The wolves got what they deserved mauled and nobody cares about White Scars.

I actually forgot that it was his job to write Heresy White Scars.
He even wrote Watchers of the Throne not ten seconds ago. I actually want to get it, too. I didn't even realise it was written by Wraight.
Nope, Wraight is still working. Carry on.

EDIT: Turns out Carrion Throne is a pseudo-prequel to Watchers. I'm sold. I'll be buying both this week.

[khadgar567]

can some one do every one a favor and TL;DR the threat in one post just last few pages

[Cheesegear]

can some one do every one a favor and TL;DR the threat in one post just last few pages

Business trumps morality; But apparently that shouldn't hold true for GW, because reasons (this went on for two pages).

1. Fans want more females in the setting.
2. Fans don't want female Space Marines, specifically.
GW came out and said that they were working on adding/improving more females to setting, but were not looking into making female Space Marines.

GW are giving the majority of their fans what they want. But there are a vocal group who really, really, really want female Space Marines, and GW shouldn't act like a business and they should make a product that most of their customers don't want.
- Some people believe that it would be diversity-for-profit, an advertising gimmick, done in bad faith, and not for equality at all, and wouldn't buy-in on principle.
- Some people believe that retcons are bad.
- Some people believe that there are already-existing Factions with female characters that already exist, that are poorly written, and maybe improve on their groundwork that you already have, before you start from scratch on something new. And addition to the setting, is better than replacement.
- Some people believe that male writers writing for a - primarily - male audience is bound to make poorly written female characters. So rather than make the problem so much worse, and throwing money down the drain on Characters/Models that wont sell (because your fans have already said they don't want them to begin with)...Don't even try. Keep doing what you know, works.
- "muh male power fantasy cant have wimminz in it! im a child (or man-child) and can only relate to models i identify with." ...Less insultingly, representation matters in some peoples' Space Marines, just as much as it probably could do for women, and Space Marines being the male power fantasy made manifest, might be important. Lots of people with social/mental disorders - and children - play this game.

Any or all of those things could - but not necessarily - tie into the last (and in fact is less common that people think);
- Some people are just jerks and don't want female Space Marines because they don't even want more females in the setting like everyone else actually does (PC gone mad!). Lots of people with social/mental disorders - and children - play this game.

(Unfortunately, this issue can't be discussed adequately on this forum due to rules, so that's where I, personally left it. I don't know if anyone else still has things to say that would still remain within Forum rules).

...At the end of the day, GW themselves has already stated that they're not going to do female Space Marines. So it's kind of moot.

Cheesegear explained that Space Marines (rather specifically, Imperial Fists, as it's their job to make sure Terra doesn't flip on its political axis and ruin the Imperium, and more recently, Guilliman) decide who gets to run the Imperium.

Cheesegear posited that without McNeil or Abnett (?) writing anymore, the best authors in the stable aside from ADB are; David Annandale and Guy Haley (and Chris Wraight and Josh Reynolds EDIT: ...and John French, and Rob Sanders).

Wraith explained the some of the bureaucratic arms of the Imperium, and the Administratum is a trainwreck.

[Forum Explorer]

I had a thought about Machine Spirits.

The lore is always kinda vague on if they are actually real, and how necessary all the ceremony stuff the Ad Mech do is. But then it also mentions how some machines are prone to drive themselves forward, and certain vehicles even have special rules saying how their machine spirits actually help it aim.

Then I thought, 'hey wait a second, aren't warp entities powered by belief?' and thus my thought.

Machine Spirits are basically very weak warp spirits that are powered by all that ceremony, prayers, and faith that the Enginseers and other Imperium members using said vehicle do. It's why a freshly made Chimera doesn't seem to have anything resembling a Machine Spirit, but a century old Baneblade certainly does. It's why a common lasgun likely doesn't do anything special, but a power sword heirloom, passed down for generations, will actually enhance it's user with a sort of premonition in order to block attacks.

So the older the machine, the more powerful the Machine Spirit, and that's why it's so important for something like a Knight to be compatible with it's driver, because by that point the Knight has existed for so long, the Machine Spirit has a lot of control the Knight's operations. While a Chimera can be driven by anyone.

I don't actually know if that's canon or not. Does anyone know if it's contradicted anywhere?

[khadgar567]

so books needed to be writen from GW is
sisters of battle book with new sister in traning as main character( can die i have no problem her getting killled or becoming celestine guard)
adeptus mechanus book focusing on again training young tech priest from ground up
maybe a inquisitor book so team makes sense

[Cheesegear]

I don't actually know if that's canon or not. Does anyone know if it's contradicted anywhere?

Absolutely.
A 'Machine Spirit' is an automated function that requires no input from the user (whether they know about it or not). 'It just does it'.

For example, a car.
Pull the handbrake, put the car into gear, push your foot on the accelerator. This is a 'ritual' that makes the machine work.

Put in petrol, make sure the engine is oiled, make sure the fluids are correct. This the 'sacred oil' nonsense they keep going on about.

The car runs out of petrol, and the low petrol light comes on. The engine is broken. The check engine light comes on. This is the car's 'Machine Spirit' telling you the problem. Maybe you dropped the clutch, and your gearbox grinds. You did the ritual wrong, the Machine Spirit is displeased (hence the groaning), and the car did not go.

For example, a computer.
You try to do a thing - the ritual.
Your computer gives you an error message saying you did it wrong and the process wont run - the machine spirit.

Power of the Machine Spirit, is the Land Raider's auto-targeting functions. It's pretty clear about that. The 'Machine Spirit' is essentially just 'auto aim'. Is 'auto-aim' a Daemon? (It would explain a lot).
The Machine Spirit in a Drop Pod, is its Guidance System. It's just a camera that identifies objectives relative to the surface, and thrusts away. Techmarines have to rip it out.

[Drasius]

I don't actually know if that's canon or not. Does anyone know if it's contradicted anywhere?

Probably the bit where it's heresy.

Doesn't mean you're wrong, but you're not allowed to think it.

[Forum Explorer]

Absolutely.
A 'Machine Spirit' is an automated function that requires no input from the user (whether they know about it or not). 'It just does it'.

For example, a car.
Pull the handbrake, put the car into gear, push your foot on the accelerator. This is a 'ritual' that makes the machine work.

Put in petrol, make sure the engine is oiled, make sure the fluids are correct. This the 'sacred oil' nonsense they keep going on about.

The car runs out of petrol, and the low petrol light comes on. The engine is broken. The check engine light comes on. This is the car's 'Machine Spirit' telling you the problem. Maybe you dropped the clutch, and your gearbox grinds. You did the ritual wrong, the Machine Spirit is displeased (hence the groaning), and the car did not go.

For example, a computer.
You try to do a thing - the ritual.
Your computer gives you an error message saying you did it wrong and the process wont run - the machine spirit.

Power of the Machine Spirit, is the Land Raider's auto-targeting functions. It's pretty clear about that. The 'Machine Spirit' is essentially just 'auto aim'. Is 'auto-aim' a Daemon? (It would explain a lot).
The Machine Spirit in a Drop Pod, is its Guidance System. It's just a camera that identifies objectives relative to the surface, and thrusts away. Techmarines have to rip it out.

Sure, but at the same time they'll also say things like how the machine spirit of a Baneblade needs to be placated before it can even be turned on. And again there are things like Gaunt's power sword, which actively enhances his skills with a blade. Though there is room for both to be true, it's not like Techmarines could tell the difference.

Probably the bit where it's heresy.

Doesn't mean you're wrong, but you're not allowed to think it.

One of the many benefits of being a Xenos, the Imperium already wants to kill me, it can't do it twice.

[Cheesegear]

Sure, but at the same time they'll also say things like how the machine spirit of a Baneblade needs to be placated before it can even be turned on.

My car's battery is dead. It wont turn on.
I have to stick the key in the ignition or it wont turn on.

And again there are things like Gaunt's power sword, which actively enhances his skills with a blade.

As of a few years ago, I take anything Abnett's written with a grain of salt.

Though there is room for both to be true

The Priests of Mars trilogy does a bit with Machine Spirits.
Space Marine Machine Spirits I have read about at length (they're not special). The only thing that isn't explained is why a Space Marine can't repaint his entire armour.

it's not like Techmarines could tell the difference.

They actually can't. Some Tech-Adepts actually can't tell the difference between a Machine Spirit, and when a machine is actually Possessed.

[Forum Explorer]

My car's battery is dead. It wont turn on.
I have to stick the key in the ignition or it wont turn on.



As of a few years ago, I take anything Abnett's written with a grain of salt.



The Priests of Mars trilogy does a bit with Machine Spirits.
Space Marine Machine Spirits I have read about at length (they're not special). The only thing that isn't explained is why a Space Marine can't repaint his entire armour.



They actually can't. Some Tech-Adepts actually can't tell the difference between a Machine Spirit, and when a machine is actually Possessed.

Maybe it is that simple. Maybe it isn't.


Does that extend to his older works as well?


I know Mechanicum has an Arch-Magos who flat out doesn't believe in Machine Spirits at all.


Hmm, isn't machines being able to be possessed evidence for my theory?

[Cheesegear]

Maybe it is that simple. Maybe it isn't.

Well, the novels I've read, seem to say that it is.

Does that extend to his older works as well?

Almost more so. The older something is, the further it gets away from 'current' canon.
But, everything Abnett was written has been post-3rd Ed., so it's still fine according to GW.

I know Mechanicum has an Arch-Magos who flat out doesn't believe in Machine Spirits at all.

I know I don't. The earlier books don't say anything.
But then some books actually describe the rituals...Which is just...Stuff you do to make it work.
Other stories say the Machine Spirit gets more resilient when you replace the parts that don't work.
"The Machine Spirit is telling me..." ...It's just an error message in your code.

Basically, the more books get written about a subject, the more it gets explained. Which wears down the unknown, until it's not unknown and just...Stuff.

Hmm, isn't machines being able to be possessed evidence for my theory?

Not really. Because Daemons can Possess anything, whether you believe in them or not, because the Daemon itself, already exists. Hereteks force/bind Daemons into Vehicles, they don't will them into existence; They take an existing Daemon, and jam it in.

[snowblizz]

When Land Raiders were released in their current form there was a lot of fluff attached.

One of those stories is about a Land Raider machine spirit that takes over after the crew is killed and drives around killing Orks (IIRC) as much as it can. When ammo and abtteries are dead and Orks crawl ove rit it opens hatches lures as many insdie it can and wents it's core (or something) cuasing them all to die. The vehicle is later recovered and restored and I think machine spirit was saved somehow. That makes the machinespirit more than targeting, at some pont the rules allowed it to drive the tank in alimited mode, does it still? Either way the Land Raider machinespirit was some of the most top of the line the Imperium would use it seemed.

My view has always been that machine-spirits are medium to low levels AIs depending on the size of the equipment running it. What exactly that makes the grade for a machine spirit like in a Land Raider different form an AI which is totally bad and forbidden was unclear. But I liked the ambigity of that in the setting. It really speaks to the dystopical future that yea AIs are bad except the ones we have are proved ok for reasons we don't know anymore. The problematic AIs may have been those that are sentient, learning and duno self-aware?

So machine-spirits is anything from simple control software up to and including advanced self-driving systems and the like today whereas AIs is the sci-fi software we haven't quite yet been able to create ourselves (so most things we cna do today plus a bit are okay, but going beyond that becomes unknown and bad). It fits with 40k as punk 80s future criticism too IMO.

[Drasius]

When Land Raiders were released in their current form there was a lot of fluff attached.

One of those stories is about a Land Raider machine spirit that takes over after the crew is killed and drives around killing Orks (IIRC) as much as it can. When ammo and abtteries are dead and Orks crawl ove rit it opens hatches lures as many insdie it can and wents it's core (or something) cuasing them all to die. The vehicle is later recovered and restored and I think machine spirit was saved somehow. That makes the machinespirit more than targeting, at some pont the rules allowed it to drive the tank in alimited mode, does it still? Either way the Land Raider machinespirit was some of the most top of the line the Imperium would use it seemed.

My view has always been that machine-spirits are medium to low levels AIs depending on the size of the equipment running it. What exactly that makes the grade for a machine spirit like in a Land Raider different form an AI which is totally bad and forbidden was unclear. But I liked the ambigity of that in the setting. It really speaks to the dystopical future that yea AIs are bad except the ones we have are proved ok for reasons we don't know anymore. The problematic AIs may have been those that are sentient, learning and duno self-aware?

So machine-spirits is anything from simple control software up to and including advanced self-driving systems and the like today whereas AIs is the sci-fi software we haven't quite yet been able to create ourselves (so most things we cna do today plus a bit are okay, but going beyond that becomes unknown and bad). It fits with 40k as punk 80s future criticism too IMO.

Except that numerous bits of equipment, all the way down to personal firearms, are stated to have machine spirits of varying degrees.

The main analogy I can think of is how something mechanical (best example would be a car/bike/tank/plane etc) is said to have soul in our time. I'm fairly sure there's at least 1 bit of equipment that you've (the general you, not just snowblizz) had to deal with at some stage that could best be described as "temperamental". A machine spirit is effectively the same thing, except, ya know, real (to a greater or lesser degree dependant on the age and quality of the bit of gear in question).

[Cheesegear]

When Land Raiders were released in their current form there was a lot of fluff attached.

When Land Raiders were released was some time in 2nd Ed., and all fluff before 3rd Ed. is suspect in the present day.
'Cause the story you just described I've never heard of. Source?

That makes the machinespirit more than targeting, at some point the rules allowed it to drive the tank in a limited mode, does it still?

I only remember 3rd Ed. and post, which was always the Machine Spirit allowing the Land Raider to shoot, not drive. Which gels with everything I remember, of the Machine Spirit in a Land Raider being a targeting system, and not much else.

Either way the Land Raider machinespirit was some of the most top of the line the Imperium would use it seemed.

Until it was totally replicated and put into every Vehicle.
It should be noted that 30K Land Raiders didn't have Power of the Machine Spirit. Extra Cogitators weren't added in until later, until the new STC.

Is that what a Machine Spirit is, more RAM?

My view has always been that machine-spirits are medium to low levels AIs depending on the size of the equipment running it.

My view is that Machine Spirits are far more like automatons, than AI.

What exactly that makes the grade for a machine spirit like in a Land Raider different form an AI which is totally bad and forbidden was unclear.

The fact that a Land Raider's Machine Spirit can only do one task, and can't deviate from it. Land Raiders aren't sentient.
You could, maybe, theoretically task it to 'kill all Orks', or slave it to 'kill all red targets', and it would do that, because a Machine Spirit can target guns and can shoot.

But I liked the ambigity of that in the setting.

Well, it's gone now. Welcome to 20xx.

The problematic AIs may have been those that are sentient, learning and duno self-aware?

If an AI isn't sentient, then it isn't an AI. That's pretty much the definition, and pretty much the definition used in 40K.

[LeSwordfish]

With the imperium's "black box" approach to technology, I suspect that "Machine Spirit" as in "why does my gun jam" and "machine spirit" as in "my tank drives itself" are conflated very often.