Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XIV: The Emperor Floats Those Who Float Themselves

[Cheesegear]

I suspect that "Machine Spirit" as in "why does my gun jam" and "machine spirit" as in "my tank drives itself" are conflated very often.

...and you're right.

The problem with the "I like(d) ambiguity." was fine... 20 odd years ago.

Unfortunately, GW and BL have had to produce more and more and more and more stories, also, those stories have to be more and more and more and more interesting. In order to be more interesting, stories have to present us with new information (no new information just leads to Bolter Porn and Battles). Black Library scrounges for ideas. What's this do? Have we done this, yet? How does the Warp work? What's a Gellar Field? Have we explained Navigators, yet? What's a Machine Spirit? How do Spirit Stones work? Have we done a Phoenix Lord, yet? Can we please explain Mandrakes? Whatever happened to Doomrider? He can't have just disappeared. Does anyone want to write an entire series on the Horus Heresy and literally explain everything that happened - in nauseating detail? Who wants to do a book on Cato Sicarius, can we please get some sort of rep back for him? Can someone please wake up a Tomb World. Who wants to explain - even indirectly - what happened to the two missing Legions and Primarchs?

The more stories Black Library writes (because making money), the more they flesh out the setting, because that's what we're asking for; New/More information. Not less. And with more and more and more information, some of it ends up being contradictory (because Black Library doesn't pay attention, and it's not like new writers read old writers' stuff, unless they want to). So we - that's us - get to compile everything we know, and, like real statisticians, we group everything that's similar and drop outliers (especially older ones) because it makes things neater.

[Voidhawk]

If an AI isn't sentient, then it isn't an AI. That's pretty much the definition, and pretty much the definition used in 40K.

While large parts of what is being said is interesting to debate, this sentence is completely wrong in all realities.

An AI is simply just that: an Intelligence that is Artificial (as opposed to a natural one). The definition makes no divisions as to how smart one must be (as smart as a worm, a dog, a human, or smarter than that), that they need to be self aware (they don't), sapient or sentient, or even capable of more than one kind of thought. A chess-playing AI is still an AI, even though it's very linear and aware of nothing outside of the concept of chess.

Meanwhile, in 40k the word AI stands for Abominable Intelligence, and specifically denotes machines that are able to adapt and change their own function without outside input. It doesn't matter how clever they are, or if they're sentient, if they show the ability to grow outside their original brief they should be destroyed. Because of that whole Skynet thing that almost destroyed humanity. Machine Spirits are best thought of as rather like animalistic spirits, or Kami; small-gods of each device, that are created/grown/birthed to do just one job and want to do it. Most of that time the job is "kill our enemies" and alot of the ritual is about making sure the Machine doesn't miss-identify you as an enemy and vent plasma into your face. A Landraider is roughly as smart as a warhorse, if a warhorse was furious literally all the time and had four lascannons, so it needs placating before it will let you ride it.

Where exactly they come from is likely one of: A) tiny badly-programmed computer systems, B) servitor-like semi-organic systems, C) a Warp-spirit-ghost-thing generated in part by the rituals, or D) multiple of the above combined. My personal bet is all of them at once, where A and B provide a good hook for C to roost and grow.

[Drasius]

While large parts of what is being said is interesting to debate, this sentence is completely wrong in all realities.

An AI is simply just that: an Intelligence that is Artificial (as opposed to a natural one). The definition makes no divisions as to how smart one must be (as smart as a worm, a dog, a human, or smarter than that), that they need to be self aware (they don't), sapient or sentient, or even capable of more than one kind of thought. A chess-playing AI is still an AI, even though it's very linear and aware of nothing outside of the concept of chess.

Meanwhile, in 40k the word AI stands for Abominable Intelligence, and specifically denotes machines that are able to adapt and change their own function without outside input. It doesn't matter how clever they are, or if they're sentient, if they show the ability to grow outside their original brief they should be destroyed. Because of that whole Skynet thing that almost destroyed humanity. Machine Spirits are best thought of as rather like animalistic spirits, or Kami; small-gods of each device, that are created/grown/birthed to do just one job and want to do it. Most of that time the job is "kill our enemies" and alot of the ritual is about making sure the Machine doesn't miss-identify you as an enemy and vent plasma into your face. A Landraider is roughly as smart as a warhorse, if a warhorse was furious literally all the time and had four lascannons, so it needs placating before it will let you ride it.

Where exactly they come from is likely one of: A) tiny badly-programmed computer systems, B) servitor-like semi-organic systems, C) a Warp-spirit-ghost-thing generated in part by the rituals, or D) multiple of the above combined. My personal bet is all of them at once, where A and B provide a good hook for C to roost and grow.

The issue is the I part, not the A part. Your creation isn't allowed to "think" unless that part is coming from a human (or post human) source. Computers Cogitators/logic engines are fine because they're just data transfer and retrieval, they can't "think" without a servitor or better plugged in. I'd liken a machine spirit to the programming that controlls a roomba (but much angrier). It sort of seems smart'ish if you don't think about it too hard since it can avoid bumping into things and does the task its given (travel along a path that eventually cover the whole room without getting stuck on furniture) while the machine spirit in a land raider is going to keep taking target designations from the radar/IFF system equivalent and plot firing solutions against everything tagged as hostile (usually while the driver concentrates on not getting stuck on battlefield furniture). Both are just following a set of basic instructions from data gathered from their surroundings and while they seem smart, they don't really "think".

[Cheesegear]

The problem is what LeSwordfish brought up. It's not just Land Raiders that have Machine Spirits.

A whole poop-ton of...Things...Have Machine Spirits. From ship-voxes, to a Land Raider, to a chrono, even some missiles have Machine Spirits in them.

So...Stop thinking purely in terms of Land Raiders. It seems like it does a thing, because it can shoot and make people die (i.e; have an external effect on its environment). Just like an automated turret on a building - don't be silly, Cheese, a Land Raider isn't an automated turret, it's totally different.

I need someone to explain a Machine Spirit in terms of a chrono watch.

[LCP]

The story of the Land Raider solo-ing the orcs with no crew was 3rd Edition when they released the current kit. They made a very big deal of it; I think the story was in the White Dwarf that month which was pretty much a cover-to-cover Land Raider ad.

[The Glyphstone]

Whatever happened to Doomrider?

I'm honestly not certain if this is a reference to the White Scars story or not.

[Cheesegear]

The story of the Land Raider solo-ing the orcs with no crew was 3rd Edition when they released the current kit. They made a very big deal of it; I think the story was in the White Dwarf that month which was pretty much a cover-to-cover Land Raider ad.

I genuinely don't remember that, and I haven't read anything remotely similar, since.

Kind of like that time Lorgar said that all the Primarchs were psychic and then it was never mentioned again. But was, instead, changed to all the Primarchs having a portion of the Emperor inside them, which is literally true, and what everyone already knew because it was blatantly obvious...Because that's how genetics works.

"Guilliman had a halo that time, he must be psychic! Lorgar was right! Dur!" ...Nope. Halos are just something that Primarchs sometimes have, as they're channeling the fact that they're part-Divine. It doesn't actually do anything, though. It just looks cool. Except even then, I can't think of any other Primarch doing it. Almost like that was a dumb idea to be dropped, too.

I'm honestly not certain if this is a reference to the White Scars story or not.

Everything I mentioned has been a story, or a relatively big plot-point of story. Everything gets explained, eventually.
Black Library abhors a vacuum.

[bluntpencil]

I genuinely don't remember that, and I haven't read anything remotely similar, since.

It was the Rynn's Might, a Crimson Fist Land Raider that murdered the utter hell out of the Orks invading Rynn's World, without even having a crew. Crimson Fists are so badass, it turns their inanimate objects badass.

Unless I'm mistaken, after it ran out of ammo, it opened its passenger bay, and let the Orks inside... before killing them all with a plasma leak.

[bluntpencil]

http://www.cbr.com/warhammer-40000-deathwatch-comic/

Did anyone see this?

ADB is writing a Deathwatch comic.

I've almost finished putting together my Watch Company, so super excited.

[Saambell]

Page 91 of the 8th Edition Space Marine Codex has a diagram cut away image of a Land Raider. In the front right corner there's a black sphere with wires leading into it. We already know that the Imperium uses human brains to control "homing" missiles, so could "Machine Spirits" in a vehicle be similar? A human brain that is used to control various functions of the vehicle? Would explain the "fights xenos with no crew" as any human brain would naturally be all for killing xenos.

[bluntpencil]

Page 91 of the 8th Edition Space Marine Codex has a diagram cut away image of a Land Raider. In the front right corner there's a black sphere with wires leading into it. We already know that the Imperium uses human brains to control "homing" missiles, so could "Machine Spirits" in a vehicle be similar? A human brain that is used to control various functions of the vehicle? Would explain the "fights xenos with no crew" as any human brain would naturally be all for killing xenos.

It would have mentioned the Machine Spirit being a servitor then. They were quite explicit with the Skyspear missiles, for example.

[Forum Explorer]

Well, the novels I've read, seem to say that it is.



Almost more so. The older something is, the further it gets away from 'current' canon.
But, everything Abnett was written has been post-3rd Ed., so it's still fine according to GW.



I know I don't. The earlier books don't say anything.
But then some books actually describe the rituals...Which is just...Stuff you do to make it work.
Other stories say the Machine Spirit gets more resilient when you replace the parts that don't work.
"The Machine Spirit is telling me..." ...It's just an error message in your code.

Basically, the more books get written about a subject, the more it gets explained. Which wears down the unknown, until it's not unknown and just...Stuff.



Not really. Because Daemons can Possess anything, whether you believe in them or not, because the Daemon itself, already exists. Hereteks force/bind Daemons into Vehicles, they don't will them into existence; They take an existing Daemon, and jam it in.

Most of the recent novels I've read haven't really dealt on the subject too much. Just Titans having an AI that's tempermental and will flat out reject people based off their personality, and Mechanicum.


K


I really don't know. Part of the problem is that there are a few 'main' authors of the Black Library, so their ideas will be strongly represented, but at the same time, there still isn't a hard canon answer.


It's more showing that a warp entity can be forced into a machine or object. A full out existing Daemon is much more powerful then something you will into existence, but basically it's the same sort of thing.

[DataNinja]

The story of the Land Raider solo-ing the orcs with no crew was 3rd Edition when they released the current kit. They made a very big deal of it; I think the story was in the White Dwarf that month which was pretty much a cover-to-cover Land Raider ad.

Can confirm, I have that issue, and distinctly remember that story from it.

[Wraith]

I don't actually know if that's canon or not. Does anyone know if it's contradicted anywhere?

Over the books, articles, games and codices I've read, you can pretty much pick up about half a dozen different descriptions of what a Machine Spirit is, and what it does.

A) Machine Spirits are VI or minor AI constructs.
Even by our current standard of living, we can be said to have this sort of aid in all of our technology. Not even automated systems in factories or through computer programming, but we have voice recognition technology i the form of things like Alexa and Siri. Even 20 years ago, that sort of thing would appear as magic - it still would, to a significant majority of the global population.
That's all a Machine Spirit is - the 40k version of iOs has been installed on everything that it even remotely more complex than a hammer, and the "rites" to make them go are just quotations from the operational manuals that have been handed down by oral tradition.

B) Machine Spirits are superstition.
The idea of a little ghost living inside my spanner is patently absurd. There's no way I'm going to "make it angry" so that it lashes out at me, but there's absolutely a way that I can use the thing with care and precision so that it doesn't slip out of my hand and land heavily on my toe. The sacred chanting of Holy Mars and the Mechanicum are the equivalent to handing someone a rifle as telling them "aim away from face, keep the springs oiled and make sure your trigger discipline is up to snuff or else you might kill someone by accident".

C) Machine Spirits are Daemons
Cyberwarfare is a thing in 40k, as is the concept of a computer virus. How different would a computer virus be from the common cold in a setting where Nurgle exists, do we think? Not very, perhaps? If we extrapolate from there - that computer virus' fall under Nurgle's domain - we're then realising that when the Imperium undertakes in electronic warfare, they are effectively using captured minor daemons and setting them loose upon their enemies. It makes about as much sense as anything else, once we also account for things like Living Saints being psychically powered beings not unlike some kind of Imperium-aligned warp-entity.
It's not entirely outlandish - Ork technology is powered by a warp entity ("the Waaagh"). Drachn'yen is a single sword with a hugely powerful daemon inside it. Who is to say that the Imperium has not found a way to mass produce Boltguns to contain tiny, mostly benevolent daemons that are occasionally prone to temper tantrum?

D) Machine Spirits are the residual gestalt consciousnesses of previous users.
Specific examples of this phenomenon are usually found in larger pieces of technology such as Starships and Titans; over the millennia, enough people have plugged their brains into a ship's main processing core that it has started to shape around them, and form a rudimentary personality. That explains how Titan Pilots can remember ancient battles from long before they were born when in command of their God Machine, and how the Titan an occasionally influence it's crew to specific (usually violent) courses of action; the strongest emotions are anger and wrath, and they are what the humans perceive to be the machine's "soul" when brought to the forefront.
Could a car be kept in use long enough to absorb enough emotion that it appears to be a sort of personality? Probably not, but then it hardly ever gets mentioned in the fluff. Could a suit of Power Armour, 8,000 years old and spending most of that time plugged directly into the nervous system of a being that has been genetically hard-wired to feel only wrath and righteous fury? Well, now....

E) Machine Spirits are a small fragment of the Omnissiah - aka, the Void Dragon.
Similar to the idea of a captured daemon, there are other entities in the Imperium who have been enslaved to suit humanities' needs. The Chaos Gods were approached to allow the Emperor to create the Primarchs, and the Void Dragon was enslaved on Mars, it's technological prowess being stolen to develop every item of tech since the Emperor put it there.
But like daemons, the C'Tan are sinister and insidious - though chained, who would know if a semi-mythical being were not just giving up it's secrets but also a part of itself into everything made under it's influence? There are weirder things in the galaxy than mere daemons, and if the Cult of the Mechanicus - famous for it's worship of the mysterious "Omnissiah" were secretly propagating their God throughout the armies of men.... who would know, except for the occasional overheard whisper between the lines of secret, encrypted machine code?

F) It's a mixture of any and all of the above.
Likely between A and B as the most common occurrence. A car has a machine spirit in so far that you need to 'feed' it petrol and occasionally the sat-nav will yell at you if you're not paying proper attention, but a lasgun? Maybe you can say that it's holographic sights can be temperamental if they're not calibrated properly, but the thing itself is just point and click. Any "machine spirit" is a combination of maintenance activities and random misfortune given a name by a Tech Priest who has a vested interest in you believing him to be a figure of expertise and authority.

And again there are things like Gaunt's power sword, which actively enhances his skills with a blade.

There's such a thing as anti-gravitic recoil baffling for guns in the 40k setting, as well as VR-aiming, holographic sights, and mind/body interface augmetics. I don't think it's too big of a stretch to imagine that by "his sword makes him a better swordsman" we can infer that it has some kind of technological aid that makes it lighter in his grip, or even plugs into his brain in some way to better coordinate the heft and balance.

I need someone to explain a Machine Spirit in terms of a chrono watch.

My crono-bracelet absolutely has a machine spirit. The other day I wasn't paying attention and bashed it against a door as I walked by - it immediately became angry and refused to work. In the end, I had to take it to my local Tech Priest who performed the Rite of Diagnostics upon it. Apparently I had befouled my crono-bracelet which, in a fit of pique, had rejected it's power core and it could only be appeased by the application of sacred unguents and the Rite of Reawakening.

TL;DR - My watch needed oiling and a new battery.

[LeSwordfish]

While I disagree with the idea that Abnett is basically non-canon, I do want to point out that very many of his Swordsman characters refer to the idea that their blades make them better fighters - Eisenhorn and Angharad, as well as Gaunt. I suspect this is more florid writing than anything that should be taken too literally.

[Wraith]

Eisenhorn and Angharad are literally better swordsmen with Barbarisatar because it's a psychically attuned weapon; it's controlled as much with their brain as with their hand, and acts as an extension of their powers.

If you want an earlier example to that, Eisenhorn's first sword was a "light sabre" - it had no blade, just a power field where one ought to be, so it was far lighter and faster than a more normal sword, which a huge benefit when you don't have to worry about getting up enough momentum to make a cutting bow as one would with a steel edge.

I can't comment on Gaunt. I know he's not psychic, but.... *shrug* Maybe it's a matter of familiarity, in the same way that Ciaphas Cain is a dead-eye shot with laspistols but hates bigger, heavier stub- and boltpistols?

[LeSwordfish]

Ah there we go, I was sort of misremembering. Either way, none of those things are "machine spirits in your sword can make you fight better" which is what I was trying to warn against.

[9mm]

My crono-bracelet absolutely has a machine spirit. The other day I wasn't paying attention and bashed it against a door as I walked by - it immediately became angry and refused to work. In the end, I had to take it to my local Tech Priest who performed the Rite of Diagnostics upon it. Apparently I had befouled my crono-bracelet which, in a fit of pique, had rejected it's power core and it could only be appeased by the application of sacred unguents and the Rite of Reawakening.

TL;DR - My watch needed oiling and a new battery.

Still better customer service than Comstar.

Personally, if the techpriests need to be involved is where the line of "is there a machine spirit?" crosses to yes. What that spirit actually is? what ever the writer needs it to be.

[Forum Explorer]

Eisenhorn and Angharad are literally better swordsmen with Barbarisatar because it's a psychically attuned weapon; it's controlled as much with their brain as with their hand, and acts as an extension of their powers.

If you want an earlier example to that, Eisenhorn's first sword was a "light sabre" - it had no blade, just a power field where one ought to be, so it was far lighter and faster than a more normal sword, which a huge benefit when you don't have to worry about getting up enough momentum to make a cutting bow as one would with a steel edge.

I can't comment on Gaunt. I know he's not psychic, but.... *shrug* Maybe it's a matter of familiarity, in the same way that Ciaphas Cain is a dead-eye shot with laspistols but hates bigger, heavier stub- and boltpistols?

Here, I'll quote the relevant passage from Necropolis

But something kept him alive. Partly his elevated battle-edge, partly his determination, but also he was sure, Herionymo's sword. It seemed to smell the shifting creatures and warn him -by a tingle- of their impossible movements.

And it's something he just picked up. Nothing special beyond holding it.


Far far later on there is also the Chaos lasgun Trooper Merrt picked up. Though I can't really give any details on that one cause I can't remember it. Also it was Chaos, so it doesn't count.

[Drasius]

Still better customer service than Comstar.

Technically, anything short of "collaborating with your mortal enemy" or "being nuked from orbit" is better than Comstar/WoB. It's really not that hard.

[Cheesegear]

My crono-bracelet absolutely has a machine spirit. The other day I wasn't paying attention and bashed it against a door as I walked by - it immediately became angry and refused to work. In the end, I had to take it to my local Tech Priest who performed the Rite of Diagnostics upon it. Apparently I had befouled my crono-bracelet which, in a fit of pique, had rejected it's power core and it could only be appeased by the application of sacred unguents and the Rite of Reawakening.

But everything you just said just sounds like regular stuff to do to repair a watch. None of that was an automated system designed to reject or accept new orders based on a mythical intelligence inside the chrono. You replaced a component and put oil on it. But chronos still have Machine Spirits. Except what you just said has nothing to do with Machine Spirits, only rituals, and rituals are just...Stuff. It's been described.

But I am noticing a pattern; The larger a machine is, the more automated systems Machine Spirit it has. The more automated a system becomes, the more 'intelligence' it appears to have. But it isn't intelligent, it's just automated. So, when you have say, a Knight or Titan that rejects users, why? What is 'attunement'? You stick a tube in your matrix hole in your spinal cord, and some people fry out. It wouldn't be because sticking something into your spinal cord is dangerous. It wouldn't be that certain people's brains wouldn't be compatible with that kind of stress. It wouldn't be that certain personalities and emotional states are the antithesis of what it takes to pilot an extremely sensitive vessel...Nope. It's because there's a spaghetti monster inside the machine that 'doesn't like' certain users.
That makes sense.

(Priests of Mars has a pretty big spiel on Titan pilots and how they go crazy.)

[LansXero]

But everything you just said just sounds like regular stuff to do to repair a watch. None of that was an automated system designed to reject or accept new orders based on a mythical intelligence inside the chrono. You replaced a component and put oil on it. But chronos still have Machine Spirits. Except what you just said has nothing to do with Machine Spirits, only rituals, and rituals are just...Stuff. It's been described.

But I am noticing a pattern; The larger a machine is, the more automated systems Machine Spirit it has. The more automated a system becomes, the more 'intelligence' it appears to have. But it isn't intelligent, it's just automated. So, when you have say, a Knight or Titan that rejects users, why? What is 'attunement'? You stick a tube in your matrix hole in your spinal cord, and some people fry out. It wouldn't be because sticking something into your spinal cord is dangerous. It wouldn't be that certain people's brains wouldn't be compatible with that kind of stress. It wouldn't be that certain personalities and emotional states are the antithesis of what it takes to pilot an extremely sensitive vessel...Nope. It's because there's a spaghetti monster inside the machine that 'doesn't like' certain users.
That makes sense.

(Priests of Mars has a pretty big spiel on Titan pilots and how they go crazy.)

I always thought Knights were kind of like Aspect Armours; what you say seems plausible, but doesn't explain the recollection of events not lived by the current pilot. So its probably a bit more than just automation.

[Destro_Yersul]

I always thought Knights were kind of like Aspect Armours; what you say seems plausible, but doesn't explain the recollection of events not lived by the current pilot. So its probably a bit more than just automation.

That could be a ghost memory sort of deal. The pilots plug things into their nervous system, it's not inconceivable that there might be some feedback, and some of the memories that the pilot forms get accidentally saved to disk as well.

[lord_khaine]

I always thought Knights were kind of like Aspect Armours; what you say seems plausible, but doesn't explain the recollection of events not lived by the current pilot. So its probably a bit more than just automation.

You mean an Exarch, but the point is still relevant. It is likely thats what sets a titan apart. Likely its the same sort of buildup that happens if you use a computer for 10.000 years without formatting the hard drive. And in this case it just leads to a sort of sentience because there is a direct connection between the users brain and the computer.

[Drasius]

I always thought Knights were kind of like Aspect Armours; what you say seems plausible, but doesn't explain the recollection of events not lived by the current pilot. So its probably a bit more than just automation.

That could be a ghost memory sort of deal. The pilots plug things into their nervous system, it's not inconceivable that there might be some feedback, and some of the memories that the pilot forms get accidentally saved to disk as well.

It's a bit of both, the pilot still has control (as long as the suit lets him/her), but many of the previous pilots memories are mixed in there with the machine spirit too. It's stated in a couple of novels that you need to be accepted as worthy by the knight to pilot it, and that's basically a gestalt of the previous wearers/users who make that call. When you first get in (after you've been "approved" by the suit, you don't get too much from them/the machine spirit, but the longer you pilot it and the more you devote your mind to thinking about it on a subconcious level, the more they can "talk" to you, impart tactical advice, bring certain things to your attention that you would normally gloss over, help identify hidden threats, that sort of thing.

Unsurprisingly for something refered to as a knight titan, they're quite similar to actual titan engines that way. Also unsurprisingly enough, mega-scale farm equipment also has a bunch of stark differences to a titan engine, so a lot of it is them imparting feelings, guidance and advice instead of firing solutions, enemy dispositions and tactical feeds like the machine spirit of a proper engine would.

All 3 knight books that come to mind deal with this to some extent and while some delve into it more than others, they all generally agree on how it works. The most in depth one is probably Kingsblade, but unfortunately, it's also the weakest of them too (because it's very by the numbers and formulaic, not for any other reason).

[Cheesegear]

It's a bit of both, the pilot still has control (as long as the suit lets him/her), but many of the previous pilots memories are mixed in there with the machine spirit too...

So there's actually a partial consciousness, due to literal ghosts in the machines.

Well, that clears that up. Machine Spirits and Knight Titans are very, very different.

[Drasius]

So there's actually a partial consciousness, due to literal ghosts in the machines.

Well, that clears that up. Machine Spirits and Knight Titans are very, very different.

Except that it's said that the previous pilots are meant to be part of the machine spirit while also not being the machine spirit themselves. Sort of like a browser plug in or an excel add-in, they just add flavour and capabilities to an existing product.

[LansXero]

Except that it's said that the previous pilots are meant to be part of the machine spirit while also not being the machine spirit themselves. Sort of like a browser plug in or an excel add-in, they just add flavour and capabilities to an existing product.

"It seems you are purging the filthy xenos. Would you like some advice?"

[Brookshw]

"It seems you are purging the filthy xenos. Would you like some advice?"

Hah! Well played!

[Cheesegear]

"It seems you are purging the filthy xenos. Would you like some advice?"

God damn it. I just spat water all over desk. You have no idea how much I hate/love you right now.

I have Carrion Throne and Watchers of the Throne: The Emperor's Legion in my possession.

In the front cover of Watchers, Chris Wraight directly thanks Nick Kyme, ADB and John French for their 'invaluable help'.
I have no idea what Kyme brought to the table. But I know ADB wrote Master of Mankind and John French wrote all the RPGs non-combat politically stuff that goes on in the Imperium. Given that I now know what Watchers is roughly about, I'm so excited. Mostly because I know, on the record, that Wraight is either a) Reading other peoples' books to get information, or b) directly asking other/better authors for their input on their subjects.

If Watchers even covers a fraction of plot threads delivered in Master of Mankind, I will be pleased.