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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    Daemon

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    Default Re: My Druid Player found a polymorph cheat code?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Of course, this doesn't fix its main problem: massive temp hit point gain. Same problem Druid Wild Shape has. Really the entire 'hit points of the creature gets added on top of your current hit point' thing 5e does for these effects needs to be reconsidered. Because the way it is now isn't working very well.
    Oddly enough, when I looked at the Archdruid NPC stat block for use as an opponent, it seems that it doesn't use the same rules as PC druids do. Specifically, it doesn't replace HP at all IIRC. It gets the AC, attacks, and physical abilities, but none of the HP. I'm AFB so I can't double check, but that's what I saw at first glance. Makes me wonder, it does...
    Last edited by PhoenixPhyre; 2017-10-10 at 06:55 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #152
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    Default Re: My Druid Player found a polymorph cheat code?

    I don't think "no extra hit points" would be balanced, especially for Druid Wild Shape. I'm not sure what would be a good way to tweak the way it works. I just know it's not working well right now.

  3. - Top - End - #153
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    Daemon

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    Default Re: My Druid Player found a polymorph cheat code?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    I don't think "no extra hit points" would be balanced, especially for Druid Wild Shape. I'm not sure what would be a good way to tweak the way it works. I just know it's not working well right now.
    Right. I'm just saying I found it interesting (and gave this particular arch druid THP equal to half the new form's HP). Didn't matter, they stunning striked her and nuked her in about 1.5 rounds anyway.

    I find the whole "summon pixies and use polymorph" thing an odd beast entirely. It implies that the character a) knows about pixies (which may or may not be true) and b) knows they can use polymorph. It also requires players who dumpster dive through the MM (or through forums) looking for "broken" combinations. That's serious meta-gaming from my perspective. I'd be willing to restrict player-chosen summons to the ones out of the back of the PHB, with ones from the MM under DM's control only. The MM is not supposed to be a player book. This was the big problem with summoning and shapeshifting in 3.5--exploiting monster forms that were never intended to be used by PCs. Every new MM that came out (or any book with new forms) multiplied the problem significantly. I'd like to avoid that in 5e if possible.
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  4. - Top - End - #154
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    Tanarii's Avatar

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    Default Re: My Druid Player found a polymorph cheat code?

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    I find the whole "summon pixies and use polymorph" thing an odd beast entirely. It implies that the character a) knows about pixies (which may or may not be true) and b) knows they can use polymorph. It also requires players who dumpster dive through the MM (or through forums) looking for "broken" combinations. That's serious meta-gaming from my perspective.
    i can certainly tell you if I knew pixies could polymorph (IMO that seems like a lore thing) and had a way to summon them, or if I knew someone that could polymorph ... the second I found out giant raptor-dinosaurs were a thing I'd be changing into them non-stop.

    What's interesting to me is I've never played a game where dinosaurs were a thing before. Mostly because I've never run or played anything in Chult or BECMI's Hollow World. But I've got a campaign (adventure arcs, single party) I'm running in Mystara right now that's eventually going to go to the Hollow World if it stays together long enough ... and that group has a Moon Druid as a core party member. Meaning the 'creatures you've seen' requirement will be met. Should be interesting.
    Last edited by Tanarii; 2017-10-10 at 07:42 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #155
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: My Druid Player found a polymorph cheat code?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    But whatever's clever. The easiest fix that doesn't require any change to RAW, meets SA RAI, and doesn't require specially designing combo-specific-countering encounters, in order to deal with something that's roundly considered a broken combo, is for the DM to put some limits on Conjure {creature} spells where needed.

    Edit: also, polymorph is definitely out of line power-wise, as a buff. If you want to house-rule it into line, a quick fix is to change it to max CR = target PC level -2.

    Of course, this doesn't fix its main problem: massive temp hit point gain. Same problem Druid Wild Shape has. Really the entire 'hit points of the creature gets added on top of your current hit point' thing 5e does for these effects needs to be reconsidered. Because the way it is now isn't working very well.
    simply restricting the combination specifically does help quite a bit, mainly because you've got one thing that's a a fair bit too powerful and another thing that's a fair bit too powerful multiplying each other, more or less. polymorph is ridiculous for the levels where you first get it, and pixies are the wrong CR, and CWB ==> 8 pixies ==> 8 polymorphs kinda compounds the problem. polymorph on its own is an extremely powerful buff (and unlike citan, i don't count "debuffing an enemy" as being both a debuff to the enemy *and* a buff to the party... you can count that as one or the other, but no double-dipping), and when you can get 8 instances of it, that just pushes things way too far.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    i can certainly tell you if I knew pixies could polymorph (IMO that seems like a lore thing) and had a way to summon them, or if I knew someone that could polymorph ... the second I found out giant raptor-dinosaurs were a thing I'd be changing into them non-stop.

    What's interesting to me is I've never played a game where dinosaurs were a thing before. Mostly because I've never run or played anything in Chult or BECMI's Hollow World. But I've got a campaign (adventure arcs, single party) I'm running in Mystara right now that's eventually going to go to the Hollow World if it stays together long enough ... and that group has a Moon Druid as a core party member. Meaning the 'creatures you've seen' requirement will be met. Should be interesting.
    honestly, even with no dinosaurs, it can get pretty out of hand. the CR 7 giant ape is not really a huge amount behind in terms of raw power, for example, and actually gains quite a bit in utility (it isn't super smart, but honestly, it may be almost as smart as your fighter was in the first place, and it has a climb speed, a ranged attack, and athletics proficiency over the t-rex, all of which doesn't factor into CR, so even when t-rex is an option i think there are probably situations where you want a giant ape anyways).

    and as more beasts get released, polymorph just gets that little bit better. we don't have dire or giant versions of a number of animals (lions and tigers and bears, oh my!), and when eberron hits there will presumably be magebred beasts, and if there's ever a statblock for trained versions of beasts with barding that can change things as well. heck, even the giant ape goes from AC 12 to AC 15 with a simple mage armour spell cast in advance...

    and seriously, who's going to argue that nobody knows about dinosaurs or magebred animals in eberron?

    anyways, i do agree, if you don't want to change any rules, gentleman's agreement to not abuse things is better than changing every fight to suddenly be with specialized anti-PC enemies. personally, i prefer just changing the rules. polymorph being max CR = spell level still allows for 2 excellent uses of the spell (debuffing and utility) without the ridiculousness of turning a CR 7 fighter into a monster that is a deadly fight for 2 level 7 fighters or a hard fight for 3 level 7 fighters. and again, that's ignoring the fact that you can go from near zero resources (low HP, few remaining spell slots/superiority dice/rages/etc) to having plenty (150 HP, and at-will damage as good as many level 11 warriors).

  6. - Top - End - #156
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: My Druid Player found a polymorph cheat code?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beelzebubba View Post
    I like this, for Moon Druid:

    They get unlimited Wild Shape of beasts that Land Druid can turn into, but their combat Wild Shapes are still limited to 2 per Short Rest
    wrong problem, this guy hasn't gotten there yet ;)

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