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Thread: The Gifted

  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by lunaticfringe View Post
    Except we know that he has isolated himself. He obviously fell in love or at least banged a human and had a kid. Also Disney Marvel owns Hydra. I'm not saying he isn't Ex Brotherhood because that is the most likely scenario. Who knows how much he has changed since the 60s.

    I can see him going Villain or Hero, but if he does show up it will probably be to help his Family. His methods are the coin flip.
    And the Mutant Supremacist called Magneto has had how many children with non-mutant women? Do I hear 'all of them'? Also, the TV rights are different than the movie rights, even if they aren't cooperating.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    I find it hard to get into this show, mostly because I just cant bring myself to hope for the best for the mutants. The normal humans are jerks as well, but most of the mutants, I don't like. Of course, its waaaayyyy better than Inhumans, which didn't even make it past the second episode for me. What happened to Agents, I thought they were going to start out the year and the Inhumans would show up in January?
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikelaC1 View Post
    I find it hard to get into this show, mostly because I just cant bring myself to hope for the best for the mutants. The normal humans are jerks as well, but most of the mutants, I don't like. Of course, its waaaayyyy better than Inhumans, which didn't even make it past the second episode for me. What happened to Agents, I thought they were going to start out the year and the Inhumans would show up in January?
    Agents of SHIELD is going to start up after Inhumans is finished (Friday, Dec. 1).

    I assume this means no mid-season hiatus.
    Last edited by Joran; 2017-10-19 at 12:26 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Nope. Pretty much a straight shot, with a few double episodes in the mix. Looks like they're trying to wrap the season before Avengers hits theaters.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Hmm, even indoor shots that should be well lit have the eclipse glasses filter.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    So, new episode tonight. Not their best episode so far, although it had its moments.



    Spoiler: Days of Our Mutants
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    The writing was blatantly clunkeriffic this time, and for the first half of the show both the acting and the dialogue felt like it was straight from a soap opera. Theyíve done much better in previous episodes, so this is disappointingóand I hope not a harbinger of worse to come.

    Iím especially unimpressed with the revelation that Eclipse has a history with the cartels. Apart from being a little stereotypey (heís from Colombia, of course heís with the cartels!) this was the most contrived part of the episode, and it was a little painful to sit through.


    Spoiler: Mom 1, Mutants 0
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    Itís great that Mom Strucker is contributing and all, but seriously, sheís the only one who thinks of hitting the convoy on the move? Thatís Tactics 101, and I find it hard to believe that all these seasoned rebel mutant types wouldnít think of it. It was great that she saved the day with Blink, but this just feels like they were trying hard to give her Something Essential to Contribute, and it just felt forced.

    On the other hand, the sedative in the syringe was perfectónot to mention her swiping the Sentinel car. Nothing like making a getaway in the bad guysí own ride.


    Spoiler: Kids 1, Mom 0
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    But gawd, they held off for three episodes and then couldnít contain themselves: they had to go with the whole kids-defying-parents-to-make-a-moral-stand trope, which Iím just tired of.

    The only consolation is that the kids drove off and actually stayed driven off, rather than circling around to come back and heroically save everything. At least the writers still have some decency.


    Spoiler: Pins & Needles
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    Give him credit, it took some stones for Strucker to offer up his own surgical pins.

    That said, how was he able to run afterwards? And why didnít there seem to be any blood on his pants? Iím calling continuity on this one.


    Spoiler: Polaris Unleashed
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    Well, sort of. I admit I was hoping for the whole prison bus to spontaneously disassemble, because that would have been awesome and thematic, but I guess blowing off the back door was easier to film.

    If nothing else, it does give a sense that Polaris isnít a Magneto-class operator just yet; she can stop bullets and fling guns, but sheís not quite up to hurling entire vehicles around. Letís just hope Sentinel Services doesnít have a submarine.

    That said, Polaris has spent most of the first four episodes imprisoned and inhibited, so hereís hoping she cuts loose a little in the next few episodes.


    Spoiler: Escape Now, Hug Later
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    Words of wisdom that all these hugging, reuniting people need to learn.

    Seriously, the area is swarming with Sentinel goons who are shooting to kill, and people just stop in their tracks and hug each other. Gah.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    This was easily the weakest episode so far. Previous episodes were more intimate, focusing on just some mutants, but this time there was so much going on. It all felt very rushed. Even the action sequences were imo subpar.

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Spoiler: Pins & Needles
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    Give him credit, it took some stones for Strucker to offer up his own surgical pins.

    That said, how was he able to run afterwards? And why didnít there seem to be any blood on his pants? Iím calling continuity on this one.
    Spoiler: Pins & Needles
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    There was blood on his pants, but yeah, I don't know how he was able to walk or run.


    Spoiler: New Mutant
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    Is Pulse a new mutant or is he from comics? How come Sentinel had never used him before. It was all just too convenient. And somehow Thunderbird managed to get to him even though just moments before he was surrounded by a small army.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    I really liked the episode. Way more than episode 3.

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    Heist episodes are always fun. They go in with a plan, there's a complication or two, and then everything works out okay. And while that's technically how it went, things were going so badly and at every turn, which made it super suspenseful. And seeing Polaris let loose was awesome! Ripping the screws out of Reed's leg was so delightfully brutal.

    I'm interested in seeing where this story with Eclipse goes in regards to the cartel. I also wonder what happened to Pulse and his tattoo. Probably had something to do with the scientist guy they were teasing in previous episodes. I was surprised Thunderbird didn't bring Pulse back with him though. Seemed like he had a chance to.
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    I looked him up. Pulse is from the comics.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Spoiler: Pins & Needles
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    That's just how it is. They're used to secure the natural parts, ligaments to bone, until they can heal, and sometimes complications require the metal bits to be removed later. Since his leg had already healed from whatever surgery used them in the first place, they wouldn't normally be required for him to continue to walk. Removing the pins would probably be another outpatient procedure if it had become necessary, and surgery to remove the pins is necessarily messier than what Polaris is capable of.

    I still expected him to be more visibly limping, but he was bloody and wasn't running any where.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    This episode proved the point of what I don't like about this show. Its totally one sided. Other mutant shows are mutant vs. mutant or superhero vs. supervillan, which are fair fights. This show is mutant vs. mook, which is a total curb-stomp. The mooks have no chance, especially when their one thing (guns) are rendered completely useless. It also doesn't help when they are total idiots...you have one guy that can shut down all mutant powers, and you leave him there alone where one punch can knock him out, especially when he is focused on doing his thing???? One guard with him, that's all it takes, and the whole attack gets thwarted.
    Everything happens for a reason. But sometimes the reason is that you are stupid and make bad decisions.

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  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Originally Posted by MikelaC1
    Other mutant shows are mutant vs. mutant or superhero vs. supervillan, which are fair fights.
    So when the beefy Sentinel goons were pounding on Polaris as she lay on the floor of her plexiglass cage, you thought that was a fair fight?

    Originally Posted by MikelaC1
    It also doesn't help when they are total idiots...you have one guy that can shut down all mutant powers, and you leave him there alone where one punch can knock him outÖ.
    Originally Sigged by MikelaC1
    Everything happens for a reason. But sometimes the reason is that you are stupid and make bad decisions.
    More seriously, Iíd suggest that the Sentinel goons were spread too thinóthe chief goon ordered them to sweep and secure the entire area, without concentrating on protecting the convoy.

    And I think they overestimated Pulseís abilities. Polaris and Eclipse were both fighting as hard as they could to use their abilities, and Pulse was trying to counter them while also suppressing Blink, Johnny and Chameleon Guy. Pretty clearly he was overtaxed and distracted.

    Iím hoping they follow up on this, with the chief goon complaining to their Mutant Reconditioning Division that theyíre not providing the services promised. And I expect that the Sentinel goons, or at least their chief, will learn from the experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikelaC1 View Post
    This episode proved the point of what I don't like about this show. Its totally one sided. Other mutant shows are mutant vs. mutant or superhero vs. supervillan, which are fair fights. This show is mutant vs. mook, which is a total curb-stomp. The mooks have no chance, especially when their one thing (guns) are rendered completely useless. It also doesn't help when they are total idiots...you have one guy that can shut down all mutant powers, and you leave him there alone where one punch can knock him out, especially when he is focused on doing his thing???? One guard with him, that's all it takes, and the whole attack gets thwarted.
    I like that it's Mutant vs. Mook. It drives home why the muggles are afraid of the mutants; one powerful mutant can take out an entire army. It also means that when Sentinel Services shows up with even more firepower, it'll be more dramatic.

    Also, the Mooks seem to be doing a pretty good job of holding their own against the mutants, outside of Polaris. It's mostly just throwing a ton of bullets and being willing to kill, while the mutants are trying to keep the body count down. The overwhelming firepower of the police means that the mutants are mostly confined to trying to keep a low profile and using their powers to evade and avoid conflict.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joran View Post
    the mutants are mostly confined to trying to keep a low profile and using their powers to evade and avoid conflict.
    And being no doubt willing to erase anyone's memories if things go sideways
    Everything happens for a reason. But sometimes the reason is that you are stupid and make bad decisions.

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  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Anyone want still argue that the Mutants are the good guys, after ripping a man's mind apart with no regard to consequences.
    Everything happens for a reason. But sometimes the reason is that you are stupid and make bad decisions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikelaC1 View Post
    Anyone want still argue that the Mutants are the good guys, after ripping a man's mind apart with no regard to consequences.
    Clearly not intentional because they were interrupted. The mutants have done a pretty good job of keeping the body count low, even though they could easily have murdered dozens of police officers; mutants are so far clearly defensive in nature (their operations so far have been rescues and transport), not offensive.

    That said, I like that the show is taking pains to humanize what easily could be the faceless authoritarian police forces (that said, Jace is probably going to join the mutants sometime in season 2).

    One thing I will say about the Gifted is so far is that it's competently executed and I enjoy the show and the acting but I haven't been surprised yet; everything feels like a standard plot and there's been no twists. When people ask me what I think about it, I reply with "It's a X-Men TV show".
    Last edited by Joran; 2017-11-01 at 11:36 AM.

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikelaC1 View Post
    Anyone want still argue that the Mutants are the good guys, after ripping a man's mind apart with no regard to consequences.
    Well better than the Sentinel Services people at least. Hell the last episode they shot a guy who made zero threatening moves towards them. Reed talked this episode about how several mutants he prosecuted just "disappeared" after going to that Baton Rouge facility. They were detaining people in this episode without warrants or the like as well. Sure violating this guy's mind was bad and leaving him in the middle of it was bad, but these people are basically at war.

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    I never said Sentinal was good. I just don't buy that the mutants are the good guys either.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikelaC1 View Post
    I never said Sentinal was good. I just don't buy that the mutants are the good guys either.
    I haven't really seen much that the Mutants have done that can be morally questionable. They're fighting an oppressive system, without resorting to lethal force, against a police that's more than willing to shoot them.

    Outside of Dreamer's power, what have the mutants done that makes you think that they're not good?

    P.S. I'm sure at some point we'll come across the actual mutant terrorists, but these are essentially the underground railroad of their universe.

  20. - Top - End - #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joran View Post
    One thing I will say about the Gifted is so far is that it's competently executed and I enjoy the show and the acting but I haven't been surprised yet; everything feels like a standard plot and there's been no twists. When people ask me what I think about it, I reply with "It's a X-Men TV show".
    You make a really good point here. The reason I wasn't excited for the pilot was because of this. It's the reason that I feel like the show has a lot of potential, but that it's not quite meeting it. Still really enjoying it, but it just needs that push to get it over the edge.
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  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joran View Post
    Outside of Dreamer's power, what have the mutants done that makes you think that they're not good?

    P.S. I'm sure at some point we'll come across the actual mutant terrorists, but these are essentially the underground railroad of their universe.
    First of all, you cant just excuse one person; and Dreamers power isn't even questionable from a moral point of view, its outright evil. And she is more than willing to use it on members of her own team. The ends justify the means, is never a phrase a good side should be using. Trying to say it was unintentional because they were "interrupted" is a crock, they were surrounded and under siege before she even started, so the probability of being interrupted was a virtual certainty. She ripped him apart anyway. As for another, Polaris was more than willing to resort to torture to get the information she needed from the Sentinel agent. You miss my point. Im not saying the Sentinel people are good, far from it. However neither are the mutants. We still don't know all the circumstances about the 7/15 riots, but we do know that mutant power killed many non-mutants.
    And my other point still remains, mutants vs. mooks is a curbstomp. At least the X-Men series is mutant on mutant, while most superheros are mutant on supervillan, equal fights.
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  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikelaC1 View Post
    First of all, you cant just excuse one person; and Dreamers power isn't even questionable from a moral point of view, its outright evil. And she is more than willing to use it on members of her own team. The ends justify the means, is never a phrase a good side should be using. Trying to say it was unintentional because they were "interrupted" is a crock, they were surrounded and under siege before she even started, so the probability of being interrupted was a virtual certainty. She ripped him apart anyway. As for another, Polaris was more than willing to resort to torture to get the information she needed from the Sentinel agent. You miss my point. Im not saying the Sentinel people are good, far from it. However neither are the mutants. We still don't know all the circumstances about the 7/15 riots, but we do know that mutant power killed many non-mutants.
    And my other point still remains, mutants vs. mooks is a curbstomp. At least the X-Men series is mutant on mutant, while most superheros are mutant on supervillan, equal fights.
    Your moral standards are unusually strict to apply to the heroes in these sorts of shows. It is not uncommon for heroes to resort to threatening torture for information even in kid shows. How many of the currently running superhero shows have had a rough interrogation scene?

    Manipulating memories is also not an uncommon trick in the protagonists bag. A flashy device was introduced recently into Legends of Tomorrow to help the legends preserve the timeline. Its used all over in Harry Potter.

    Calling a power evil, as oppose to the use of it, is rather similar to the sort of reasoning the mutant-haters would use, but is actually more extreme than what the law is in this show. It appears almost any use of mutant powers is a serious crime in this show, but simply having a power is not.

    The mutants had not counted on the sentinels moving in as fast as they did, that was quite clear. It isnít unreasonable to assume that the mutants had experience with the sentinels in standoff situations and, for some reason, Sentinel Serviceís has starting behaving more aggressively.

    IRL, the reason authorities move solely and negotiate in a hostage situation is because a likely response to forced entry is to kill the hostage. The mutants are unwilling to kill anyone, and try to avoid even engaging the Sentinels, even though they describe their situation as ďa war.Ē The Sentinels seem to be relying on the mutants restraint.

    If anything, the mutants of the mutant underground are unusually pacifist. Polaris hostage-taking was indicated to be both reckless and crossing a line by Eclipse. The mutants didnít even consider bringing their hostage with them, but apparently their operation was, get in, get the information they needed, and get out.

    Finally, if you are complaining about mutant vs. mook curbstomp you are not watching the show. Sentinels have already used a mix bag of tricks (robots, other mutants) and proven they are able to use lethal force. The mutants have also shown they are vulnerable to guns (unless Polaris is with them).

    If anything, the show is more realistic in making the mutantsvulnerable to the non-powered human sentinels. Their powers, without plot armor, shouldnít prevent them from being shot by conventional weapons.

    That sets up this show to the sort of gritty realist show about a desperate group that would normally be crossing moral lines. However, the mutants have been, if anything, unusually principled in their restraint.

    Mutants & Sympathizers vs. Human mutant-haters is what makes this show what it is.

    You write as one who wants a more vanilla superhero show in depicting the mutants as practically invincible, setting up mutant vs. mutant fights. Also, you donít want to see anyone on the hero side struggling with their moral lines.

    That sort of black and white morality isnít even trendy among prime-time superhero right now, and the moral lines that have been crossed in this show are of the sort that is fair game for a childrenís show.
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  23. - Top - End - #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Finally, if you are complaining about mutant vs. mook curbstomp you are not watching the show. Sentinels have already used a mix bag of tricks (robots, other mutants) and proven they are able to use lethal force. The mutants have also shown they are vulnerable to guns (unless Polaris is with them).
    Yes, they have shutdown mutant. And then proceed to be total morons by leaving him totally unguarded while he does his thing and gets knocked out by one punch. Mutant vs. mook is bad enough, mutant vs. moron mook?
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    Neither side is 100% good or evil. The show has considerable nuance in depicting both protagonists and antagonists. Isn't that a good thing? Black and white morality is rather boring.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikelaC1 View Post
    First of all, you cant just excuse one person; and Dreamers power isn't even questionable from a moral point of view, its outright evil. And she is more than willing to use it on members of her own team. The ends justify the means, is never a phrase a good side should be using. Trying to say it was unintentional because they were "interrupted" is a crock, they were surrounded and under siege before she even started, so the probability of being interrupted was a virtual certainty. She ripped him apart anyway.
    I'd agree with Reddish Mage, the Sentinel Services storming the building was ridiculously reckless. It was a hostage situation and the police didn't even contact the hostage takers nor establish their demands before just storming the building. That usually leads to the hostage being killed, but the mutants again showed restraint. I think it's reasonable that the mutants wouldn't expect to be interrupted, given normal protocol in hostage negotiations is to engage with the hostage takers, get a good assessment of the situation, negotiate with the hostage takers, and as a last resort, neutralize them while ensuring the safety of the hostages. They instead went straight to "STORM THE BUILDING" for plot purposes.

    As for Dreamer's powers, her use with Blink was wrong because she didn't establish consent in implanting a memory; that's obviously a violation. That's on her because she knew it was wrong, was ordered not to do it, but still did it to save lives (you could argue whether it was moral or not based on how you feel about the trolley problem). With Jace, I'm unclear how painful, violating, a memory read uninterrupted would be, but again, it's probably better than physically torturing the guy; at least Eclipse seems to think so.

    As for another, Polaris was more than willing to resort to torture to get the information she needed from the Sentinel agent. You miss my point. Im not saying the Sentinel people are good, far from it. However neither are the mutants. We still don't know all the circumstances about the 7/15 riots, but we do know that mutant power killed many non-mutants.
    And my other point still remains, mutants vs. mooks is a curbstomp. At least the X-Men series is mutant on mutant, while most superheros are mutant on supervillan, equal fights.
    I think again the mutants are showing tremendous restraint in not actually killing anyone. Also, as far as I know, nobody on the Team Mutant was at 7/15 nor were the power signatures that led to the death of Jace's daughter match any of our known mutants. So, placing blame on all mutants for the actions of a few on 7/15 is really problematic and led to this oppression in the first place.

    The mutants seem like they're on the side of good; well as good as you can be when you're fighting an authoritarian regime that's trying to kill or capture every single one of you.

    I think the power levels match up pretty well, especially when Polaris wasn't with the rest of the team. She's the only one that makes the mutants bulletproof and able to fight against Sentinel Services; Eclipse needs line of sight and isn't bullet proof. The two kids powers are probably up there in terms of combat power, but they're kids so they can't fight.

    So, really you only have 2 combat effective mutants (albeit one who can take out entire squads of police by herself) and then a bunch of people who have non-combat powers. Without Polaris, the mutants were confined to running away and running away some more.

    It's not like the X-Men cartoons where you had Cyclops, Jean Grey, Professor X, Wolverine, Storm, Gambit, and Jubilee that are able to take out 10 foot tall robots.
    Last edited by Joran; 2017-11-02 at 12:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joran View Post
    It's not like the X-Men cartoons where you had Cyclops, Jean Grey, Professor X, Wolverine, Storm, Gambit, and Jubilee that are able to take out 10 foot tall robots.
    Cyclops, Gambit and Jubilee overall are probably pretty close in power level to the characters on the show. It's just the big hitters that are way outside everyone's league, except maybe Polaris who seems to be basically less trained (and maybe less powerful) Magneto. Not sure if they're going to try and tie him in here, I kinda doubt it if they want to keep things low key.

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    Default Re: The Gifted

    Given the stakes for the Underground, I'm in agreement that they've shown a great deal of restraint. They're fighting for their lives, their friends, and for everyone else like them. Their enemies are willing to kill, imprison, and brainwash mutants.

    But also the show doesn't paint Dreamer's powers, or use of them, as no big deal. She sounded horrified that she wasn't able to restore him to where he was. She was warned not to use them on Blink and then warned that she needed to tell her after, before it blew up in her face. The show isn't taking the stance that she is justified in what she does, which is honestly refreshing. What she does is messed up and the show is addressing it. Which is different than the example of outright torture, which so often with shows is done and then forgotten. There are consequences to her actions and while she may have had good intentions, she's really messed some people up. And while we don't know yet what the blow back will be from Blink and Jace, I expect it to be rather devastating.
    Playing Pokemon Y

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  28. - Top - End - #58
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Reddish Mage's Avatar

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    Default Re: The Gifted

    Speaking of restraint the current episode is really driving home the distinction between the ethics of the sentinels vs the mutants.

    Spoiler: Episode 7 eXtreme measures - a few good bits
    Show
    So Jace is enthusiastic to get back to work with his new friends, who are remodeling the sentinels to operate without such pesky things as constitutional limits on their operations. They do that by causing the Justice Dept. Attorney to have a stroke. That's after demonstrating that they think things like sending in mutant assassins who are somehow perfect spies until "activated" is the perfect next phase.

    Meanwhile, Eclipse fears for his soul for going back to work for drug-smuggling lady. Yes, Eclipse has personal and spiritual reasons to be so cautious (and is proven to be right) but in essence, criminals and the mutant underground have a lot of common ground. Both, for example, make their living smuggling highly illegal contraband, and the mutants certainly look like they have need of money and resources. Given everything going on, its actually pretty shocking the mutants have not started their own criminal enterprise yet.

    Meanwhile, the Strucker's, who admittedly show time and again they haven't fully adjusted to the reality of what it means to be Mutant Underground, have problems with a petty thief (jewelry theft is most likely felony theft, but the record said petty theft).


    In short, Sentinels are willing to cross just about any line. Meanwhile, individuals on Team Mutant have problems with merely associating with criminals.

    Within the context of this dark show, the folks in the Mutant Underground are practically saints.
    Last edited by Reddish Mage; 2017-11-14 at 10:35 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

    Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar

  29. - Top - End - #59
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    Joran's Avatar

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    Default Re: The Gifted

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Speaking of restraint the current episode is really driving home the distinction between the ethics of the sentinels vs the mutants.

    Spoiler: Episode 7 eXtreme measures - a few good bits
    Show
    So Jace is enthusiastic to get back to work with his new friends, who are remodeling the sentinels to operate without such pesky things as constitutional limits on their operations. They do that by causing the Justice Dept. Attorney to have a stroke. That's after demonstrating that they think things like sending in mutant assassins who are somehow perfect spies until "activated" is the perfect next phase.

    Meanwhile, Eclipse fears for his soul for going back to work for drug-smuggling lady. Yes, Eclipse has personal and spiritual reasons to be so cautious (and is proven to be right) but in essence, criminals and the mutant underground have a lot of common ground. Both, for example, make their living smuggling highly illegal contraband, and the mutants certainly look like they have need of money and resources. Given everything going on, its actually pretty shocking the mutants have not started their own criminal enterprise yet.

    Meanwhile, the Strucker's, who admittedly show time and again they haven't fully adjusted to the reality of what it means to be Mutant Underground, have problems with a petty thief (jewelry theft is most likely felony theft, but the record said petty theft).


    In short, Sentinels are willing to cross just about any line. Meanwhile, individuals on Team Mutant have problems with merely associating with criminals.

    Within the context of this dark show, the folks in the Mutant Underground are practically saints.
    Sentinel Services: "Are we the baddies?"

    Edit: Also looks like the Strucker family name is about to come into relevance.
    Last edited by Joran; 2017-11-16 at 04:57 PM.

  30. - Top - End - #60
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    Starbuck_II's Avatar

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    Default Re: The Gifted

    Anyone catch they named dropped the X-men, but they didn't mention what they meant by what happened to them?

    Does this take place before the movie Logan?
    Or did something else happen to them?!

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