Alas, poor Sphere Magus

[Quarian Rex]

I also wonder if there's confusion about making a concentration check to initially cast a spell defensively, and making a concentration check to maintain concentration when struck. Making the Magus not have to ever make ANY concentration checks would be kind of ridiculous, but defensively casting a spell (like the kind of thing covered by Melee Blaster) shouldn't be too big of an issue.

See, this is one of the main differences between Vancian and SoP magic. Concentration was a rarity in Vancian, but is the absolute default in SoP and so I think that it needs to be taken into account. How about if while using Spell Combat the Magus automatically passes all concentration checks to maintain concentration due to damage if it is provoked by someone that they threaten? That's a bit of a long-winded way to put it but I hope you see where I'm going. The key here is not necessarily being immune to concentration checks but for the Magus to function at his peak within his realm of mastery.

Having to roll the bones to keep your concentration when an arrow feathers you from out of the blue, or a dragon reaches out 20ft to maul you is perfectly fine. The Magus is not in control of those situations. But when he steps up to an opponent and starts slinging spells and steel, the very basis of his entire existence, incompetence is not an option. To me, this would be like requiring a Fighter to make a Dex check every time he is hit or drop his sword.

I'll take ranged weapons out. For critical hits, I'm simply not willing to let character's use their weapon range in place of the sphere ability range. It's what makes scimitar/destruction magus so prevalent. I did have another thought: what if, when you crit with spellstrike, the sphere ability isn't expended? You get a free second use out of it.

See, the scimitar/Destruction Magus is so prevalent because that is about the only thing that the current Magus archetype is good at. That is what we're trying to fix. Making debuffs viable and allowing buffs to be maintained without being an exercise in futility will go a long way to sorting that out.

Realize too that if you have an ability that is based on crits then the high crit-range weapons will be the go-to choices. Trying to make the crit so disappointing that you no longer care (might as well use a club, does it matter?) would be a poor choice. You also seem to be over-valuing the spell-crit as well. It is a flashy option, both attractive and oh so shiny, but it is generally a disadvantage. At best you are getting a 6-in-20 chance to crit (using a Keen scimitar or similar) in exchange for a worse than 6-in-20 additional chance to miss (armor/shield/natural armor usually adds up to far more than this). That added miss chance even digs into the crit chance due to the need for confirmation.

I'm not going to run all the math but you've got to recognize that in most situations average damage will go down with Spellstrike. That is not necessarily a bad thing. A player needs to know when to use an ability to his advantage and when it does go off it brings the joy. It's interesting and it does what the player expects it to do. The last part is more important than you think. If an ability implies a crit and is replaced with a pale imitation then the players heart is filled with the hate. And some of these guys know the voodoo. Do not risk it.

As to your hatred of the scimitar, what about an Arcana that does something like Critical Genius from Spheres of Might? Have the expanded threat range unlock at Magus 10 instead of +10 BAB and I think it might achieve what you're looking for without having to gut Spellstrike. To be clear, I quite like having alternate options for the crit, I just think castrating the damage option is a mistake.

Medium armor does make sense for the magus, but archetype rules say if you get something you gotta give soemthing up. Any suggestions?

Remove the armor options at 7th and 13th, add medium armor at 1st and say that a Magus does not suffer ASF in armor they are proficient with when using spheres and talents selected as part of the Magus class and the Extra Magical Talent feat and then call it even? Middling armor is available early (with the option to upgrade at the players choice) at the cost of feat loss later, locking the ASF negation to the class. How does that sound?

The other thing is, when you have full CL in protection, granting the armored magic aegis might be better.

That is definitely an option but I don't think that it is one that should be forced on the player. Talents will be tight(-ish) and I don't think that there should be absolutely required spheres. That, and I don't think that Armored Magic is a good replacement for armor on a frontline combatant. It starts off less effective that a chain shirt and doesn't scale well. It is a great option for the rearguard spherecaster with talents to burn but I'm not a fan in this case.

Having seeing a similar ability on the prodigy playtest, I have to agree. Maybe a number of uses per day equal to Int mod? And then swift action at 19th?

I'm not a fan of this kind of limited use ability. It's either never available when you need it or you forget about it while saving it for the 'perfect moment'. What about just giving a taste of the Arcanist here? Give a floating talent point that can be swapped out daily. Bump it up to 2 at 13th (to replace the missing heavy armor) and then 3 at 19th. This doesn't really compare with the utility of the original but at least it's in the ballpark.

How about this: instead of a concentration bonus, how about they don't lose the spell if they get disrupted? Like counterstrike in reverse. It would be more interesting than a concentration bonus.

That really is a booby prize. Vancians can already hold the charge on a touch attack, trying to pass that off as a special feature of the combat caster comes off as a little insulting. This is especially true with SoP, a system based off of at-will abilities. Not losing something that you have infinite uses of is pretty useless. Remember, the resource war we are fighting is in the action economy. Whether the Magus is successful in the round should be determined by the enemy failing his save, or the Magus hitting his target, there should not be a question of whether the Magus even gets a chance to try.

Casters receive SP equal to their CLASS level, not caster level. In addition, the equivalent of arcane casting is casting with 3 drawbacks (verbal and somatic * 2). A level 20 spherecaster with 3 drawbacks will have 30 SP + Casting Mod, while a Vancian will have...well, it's about 50% more.

But that's not the point. If you look at magus archetypes, diminished spellcasting usually buys the magus something worth about 3 feats, which is 6 spell points. That's where I get that from. Not really that important.

Yup, class, not caster level. That is completely my bad. Comes with the shuffling of the rulesets. As for the SP, a lot of Drawbacks get eaten up by Boons as well, again leaving less than you might think. Also, as casters gain in level the power efficiency (?) of Vancian spells goes up geometrically (increased damage, duration, scope, scale, etc.) while Spheres are very linear but with multipliers that can lead to results that are comparable to spells yet every increase has to be paid for separately. Lower pool + higher cost = you need to value them more highly.

[Segev]

Also, what do you remember of how the Magus was actually used in play? What level ranges were you? Did the Magus just buff up and run in or was he continually using Spell Combat? I am curious about your experiences.

Mostly, I recall them using spell-combat and the pool of arcane points to do self-buffing while being the quintessential magic knight. Everything the Eldrich Knight of 3.5 advertised itself to be (despite the latter playing more as weak wizard who can also swing a sword). Essentially, gish-in-one-class.

One player in particular really likes the black sword archetype of the class, now that I think of it. Maybe that's better at its role or something? (I have read its mechanics, but never played it myself, so I am speaking from second-hand observation.

Any thoughts on the previous proposals btw?

Sorry, not at this time, because I am not immersed enough in the class mechanics to be comfortable discussing fixes to it.

[A.J.Gibson]

See, the scimitar/Destruction Magus is so prevalent because that is about the only thing that the current Magus archetype is good at. That is what we're trying to fix. Making debuffs viable and allowing buffs to be maintained without being an exercise in futility will go a long way to sorting that out.

Realize too that if you have an ability that is based on crits then the high crit-range weapons will be the go-to choices. Trying to make the crit so disappointing that you no longer care (might as well use a club, does it matter?) would be a poor choice. You also seem to be over-valuing the spell-crit as well. It is a flashy option, both attractive and oh so shiny, but it is generally a disadvantage. At best you are getting a 6-in-20 chance to crit (using a Keen scimitar or similar) in exchange for a worse than 6-in-20 additional chance to miss (armor/shield/natural armor usually adds up to far more than this). That added miss chance even digs into the crit chance due to the need for confirmation.

I'm not going to run all the math but you've got to recognize that in most situations average damage will go down with Spellstrike. That is not necessarily a bad thing. A player needs to know when to use an ability to his advantage and when it does go off it brings the joy. It's interesting and it does what the player expects it to do. The last part is more important than you think. If an ability implies a crit and is replaced with a pale imitation then the players heart is filled with the hate. And some of these guys know the voodoo. Do not risk it.

If spell crits aren't better, then why is the scimitar/destruction magus so prevalent?

I think what we need is a replacement for spell crits. Something the magus can have that doesn't rely on them using a weapon with a large crit range. My reuse-the-spell suggestion moves us away from destruction, but not away from crits. Maybe we should just drop the -2 penalty to attacking in spell combat?

Remove the armor options at 7th and 13th, add medium armor at 1st and say that a Magus does not suffer ASF in armor they are proficient with when using spheres and talents selected as part of the Magus class and the Extra Magical Talent feat and then call it even? Middling armor is available early (with the option to upgrade at the players choice) at the cost of feat loss later, locking the ASF negation to the class. How does that sound?

Unfortunately you can't remove a class feature and then give class a replacement feature at an earlier level.

That really is a booby prize. Vancians can already hold the charge on a touch attack, trying to pass that off as a special feature of the combat caster comes off as a little insulting. This is especially true with SoP, a system based off of at-will abilities. Not losing something that you have infinite uses of is pretty useless. Remember, the resource war we are fighting is in the action economy. Whether the Magus is successful in the round should be determined by the enemy failing his save, or the Magus hitting his target, there should not be a question of whether the Magus even gets a chance to try.

Let me rephrase: what if, instead of being better at casting defensively, they were better at not losing spells when hit? They still provoke when they fail their defensive casting roll, they just are less likely to lose their spell because of it.

[Quarian Rex]

If spell crits aren't better, then why is the scimitar/destruction magus so prevalent?

Re-read my previous posts. TL;DR - it seems like a great option and it's currently the only game in town.

I think what we need is a replacement for spell crits. Something the magus can have that doesn't rely on them using a weapon with a large crit range. My reuse-the-spell suggestion moves us away from destruction, but not away from crits. Maybe we should just drop the -2 penalty to attacking in spell combat?

I really don't understand your apparent biases here. Trying to rework a crit based ability so that high threat weapons offer no advantage is an exercise in futility. Attempting to shoehorn in artificial limitations to remove the benefit of increased threat range, in a crit based ability, will leave it as an incomprehensible mess. If you're really just trying to open up weapon options then look at my previous suggestion...

... what about an Arcana that does something like Critical Genius from Spheres of Might? Have the expanded threat range unlock at Magus 10 instead of +10 BAB and I think it might achieve what you're looking for without having to gut Spellstrike.

Take that Arcana and you can see warhammers, picks, flails, axes, or whatever else getting used. As for the prevalence/utility of Destruction... damage is a key component of combat, accept it. Even an alternately focused Magus will still dip Destruction because eventually things still gotta die. Seriously, reread my previous post, I really went over this. Current Spellstrike is an attractive defining feature of the class but mechanically it's probably lowering your actual damage. Remember, the goal here is to buff up this class to make it worth taking, not to remove one of the few interesting (if not as useful as it might appear) features it has.

Unfortunately you can't remove a class feature and then give class a replacement feature at an earlier level.

Yes, you really, really can. Archetypes remove features and slot in varying numbers of replacements at different levels. So long as the result is balanced then all is well. In this case we are removing two feats and adding one that provides the bare minimum protection for a frontline combatant. Can you think of a single frontliner that doesn't have at least medium armor (or it's equivalent)? Even the vancian Magus gets access to the Shield spell at first level giving an additional +4 to AC. The Sphere equivalent only gives +1. That's a big difference, especially in the early levels and this sort of discrepancy needs to be taken into account.

Let me rephrase: what if, instead of being better at casting defensively, they were better at not losing spells when hit? They still provoke when they fail their defensive casting roll, they just are less likely to lose their spell because of it.

I really went over this in the last post, I really did...

Vancians can already hold the charge on a touch attack, trying to pass that off as a special feature of the combat caster comes off as a little insulting. This is especially true with SoP, a system based off of at-will abilities. Not losing something that you have infinite uses of is pretty useless. Remember, the resource war we are fighting is in the action economy. Whether the Magus is successful in the round should be determined by the enemy failing his save, or the Magus hitting his target, there should not be a question of whether the Magus even gets a chance to try.

Also...

Concentration was a rarity in Vancian, but is the absolute default in SoP and so I think that it needs to be taken into account. How about if while using Spell Combat the Magus automatically passes all concentration checks to maintain concentration due to damage if it is provoked by someone that they threaten? That's a bit of a long-winded way to put it but I hope you see where I'm going. The key here is not necessarily being immune to concentration checks but for the Magus to function at his peak within his realm of mastery.

Having to roll the bones to keep your concentration when an arrow feathers you from out of the blue, or a dragon reaches out 20ft to maul you is perfectly fine. The Magus is not in control of those situations. But when he steps up to an opponent and starts slinging spells and steel, the very basis of his entire existence, incompetence is not an option. To me, this would be like requiring a Fighter to make a Dex check every time he is hit or drop his sword.

I think I got that across pretty clearly. Giving casters a chance to blow their spells when in melee combat is a rules choice that prompts emergent gameplay. Casters stay out of combat because they can be made useless in that environment. If you design a caster whose one defining characteristic is to cast spells in combat they cannot be allowed to render themselves useless in their designed role. That has to be addressed. I think the above does so.

As for Spellstrike allowing you to 'keep your spell' when you're using at-will spell like abilities, I want you to think about that for a min and then tell me how it's supposed to make sense. Even with non-damage crit options available they still only occur on a crit and have a much higher chance of failure. Anything that has a non-trivial SP investment will not be left to the uncertainty of a normal to hit roll. Debuffs or damage, Spellstrike is for spam. Alterations have to be made with this in mind.

[EldritchWeaver]

As for Spellstrike allowing you to 'keep your spell' when you're using at-will spell like abilities, I want you to think about that for a min and then tell me how it's supposed to make sense. Even with non-damage crit options available they still only occur on a crit and have a much higher chance of failure. Anything that has a non-trivial SP investment will not be left to the uncertainty of a normal to hit roll. Debuffs or damage, Spellstrike is for spam. Alterations have to be made with this in mind.

Just want to mention that there are ways to burn SPs, so not losing SPs makes somewhat sense. Still it is reliant on critting, which means that it is quite a gamble, if you spend the SPs you'll likely lose.

[dude123nice]

If spell crits aren't better, then why is the scimitar/destruction magus so prevalent?

Part of that is the fact that the magus has GREAT synergy with the Dervish Dance feat. And an even greater part is the fact that a lot of people like simple but effective tactics and a lot of DMs are not catering to munchkins and so their encounters tend to be pretty straightforward. There is also the fact that at mid to high levels buffs can last for whole hours, the fact that, often, parties have a full caster, a bard or another such class that is already dedicated to buffing everyone, and that taking an enemy out in the first or second round of combat is always a good tactic.

[A.J.Gibson]

As for Spellstrike allowing you to 'keep your spell' when you're using at-will spell like abilities, I want you to think about that for a min and then tell me how it's supposed to make sense.

The basic idea is that if you hit with a crit spellstrike, the spell affects the target, but instead of double effect, you keep the charge. Then, the next time you hit (which may be immediately if this is the beginning of spell combat), you get the effect again. So you get a boost in action economy, and you don't have spend the spell points twice either.

I missed the post earlier where you suggested you can't lose spells by taking damage. That's a good idea. Still undecided about spellstrike. I might just say 'on a crit, your spell does double damage and the save DC goes up by +4'. And I think slashing grace would make a good arcana.

[Quarian Rex]

The basic idea is that if you hit with a crit spellstrike, the spell affects the target, but instead of double effect, you keep the charge. Then, the next time you hit (which may be immediately if this is the beginning of spell combat), you get the effect again. So you get a boost in action economy, and you don't have spend the spell points twice either.

I missed the post earlier where you suggested you can't lose spells by taking damage. That's a good idea. Still undecided about spellstrike. I might just say 'on a crit, your spell does double damage and the save DC goes up by +4'. And I think slashing grace would make a good arcana.

Hmm, that is interesting. I see what you mean now (and I'm not opposed) but I have to ask how that is actually an different from the spell crit? Is there a key mechanical difference that I'm not seeing? Critting to do double damage vs. critting to apply damage on a second attack in the round. It looks like you're just adding a third hit roll to get the same damage. This would also imply that serial crits could result in spell damage applying to every attack.

I'm not against that. You would actually reduce the average damage spikes but have the potential (if not the probability) for a round of glory. That is an interesting trade off. Functionally similar but different in execution. As for the DC increase, I think that +4 is a good amount (risk vs reward and all that) but I definitely think that it should be either/or. Though the spell echo idea (which is growing on me) would negate the need for such.

[Drifter S.]

The basic idea is that if you hit with a crit spellstrike, the spell affects the target, but instead of double effect, you keep the charge. Then, the next time you hit (which may be immediately if this is the beginning of spell combat), you get the effect again. So you get a boost in action economy, and you don't have spend the spell points twice either.

I missed the post earlier where you suggested you can't lose spells by taking damage. That's a good idea. Still undecided about spellstrike. I might just say 'on a crit, your spell does double damage and the save DC goes up by +4'. And I think slashing grace would make a good arcana.

Personally I find the critical threat range and damage interaction Spellstrike has to be fine as-is and think the "recycle a charge" thing seems a little convoluted, but a way to interact with spell DCs instead of doubling damage sounds great. Perhaps make it so when you gain Spellstrike, you can pick either damage or a spell DC boost, with both as arcana so you have the choice to get both later? A lot of the thread has been all about making more things worth doing, rather than lowering down what's already decent down.

Slashing/Fencing Grace as an Arcana (or an option in general) is a good idea, but it would have to be reworded to let you actually use it with Spell Combat, since you can't use it normally. It's why Dervish Dance is basically the only thing Magi take, Scimitars are the only weapon to get dex-to-damage with Spell Combat without dips in URogue or 3rd party feats. Between that, and some of the options a friend showed me from SoM's equipment sphere, you should be able to blow the doors wide open for weapon variety. SoM in general seems like it might be able to help magus out a lot, though I'm not holding my breath until things settle down, errors get fixed, and the gish playtest officially goes up.

[A.J.Gibson]

Hmm, that is interesting. I see what you mean now (and I'm not opposed) but I have to ask how that is actually an different from the spell crit? Is there a key mechanical difference that I'm not seeing? Critting to do double damage vs. critting to apply damage on a second attack in the round. It looks like you're just adding a third hit roll to get the same damage. This would also imply that serial crits could result in spell damage applying to every attack.

I'm not against that. You would actually reduce the average damage spikes but have the potential (if not the probability) for a round of glory. That is an interesting trade off. Functionally similar but different in execution. As for the DC increase, I think that +4 is a good amount (risk vs reward and all that) but I definitely think that it should be either/or. Though the spell echo idea (which is growing on me) would negate the need for such.

You pretty much have it. For a damaging spell, the extra damage you would have done can be done on a follow up strike, but for a debuffing effect, it gets you two cracks at hurting the target, or hurting two targets.

There is another variant on this. When you crit with a spellstrike, you may use a sphere ability you can spellstrike with as a free action to recharge your weapon. This would give you the chance to change what you are using, though it doesn't save you spell points.

Personally I find the critical threat range and damage interaction Spellstrike has to be fine as-is and think the "recycle a charge" thing seems a little convoluted, but a way to interact with spell DCs instead of doubling damage sounds great. Perhaps make it so when you gain Spellstrike, you can pick either damage or a spell DC boost, with both as arcana so you have the choice to get both later? A lot of the thread has been all about making more things worth doing, rather than lowering down what's already decent down.

Slashing/Fencing Grace as an Arcana (or an option in general) is a good idea, but it would have to be reworded to let you actually use it with Spell Combat, since you can't use it normally. It's why Dervish Dance is basically the only thing Magi take, Scimitars are the only weapon to get dex-to-damage with Spell Combat without dips in URogue or 3rd party feats. Between that, and some of the options a friend showed me from SoM's equipment sphere, you should be able to blow the doors wide open for weapon variety. SoM in general seems like it might be able to help magus out a lot, though I'm not holding my breath until things settle down, errors get fixed, and the gish playtest officially goes up.

The recharge effect is a little complicated, I'll grant you. But then, this is magus :)

For slashing grace, I was thinking it might be one of the magus styles. Currently I have:

Spell Combat Style (Ex)
At 4th level, the magus chooses a combat style that enhances his ability to use spell combat and spell strike. This gives him a new ability, and second ability at 11th level.

Agile Style
At 4th level, while wearing light or no armor and not using a shield, the magus adds half her casting ability modifier (rounded down) as a dodge bonus to her AC while wielding a melee weapon. If a duelist is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus.
At 11th level, she may add all of her casting ability modifier as a dodge bonus to her AC.

Beast Style
At 4th level, when you use spell combat, you may make an additional attack at your full attack bonus with a natural weapon or unarmed attack.
At 11th level, you may make two attacks this way with different natural weapons.

Heavy Weapon Style
At 4th level, the magus can use spell combat while wielding a two-handed weapon. Doing so is difficult, and when the magus does so, he suffers a -2 penalty to his AC until the beginning of his next turn.
At 11th level, the magus no longer suffer an AC penalty for using spell combat with a two-handed weapon.

Marauding Style
At 4th level, your spellstrike ability works with thrown weapons. You may deliver any sphere ability that requires a touch attack with a thrown weapon. You may also use your spell combat ability with thrown weapons. Whenever you hit an enemy during spell combat, any ranged attacks you make with thrown weapons during that spell combat do not provoke attacks of opportunity from that enemy. Add distant and returning to the properties you can bestow with your arcane pool.
At 11th level, whenever you use spell combat, you gain an additional attack at your highest base attack bonus. This attack must be made with a thrown weapon.

Precision Style
At 4th level, when wielding a weapon with the finesse property, you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon’s damage. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size.
At 11th level, you automatically confirm all crits with finesse weapons.

Ranged Style
At 4th level, you can use spellstrike to with sphere abilities that require a ranged touch attack. You can can also use spell combat with ranged weapons.
At 11th level, ?

Shielded Style
At 4th level, you gain the ability to use spell combat while wearing a shield, though you lose your shield bonus if it is a buckler shield. You also gain proficiency with buckler shields if you do not have it already.
At 11th level, you gain the ability to use your spellstrike with your shield. Whenever an enemy make a melee attack and misses you, if you are currently holding a charge, you may use a shield bash against them as an immediate action to deliver the spell.

This replaces spell recall and improved spell recall. Some of them are pretty out of wack powerwise, I know.

[Drifter S.]

The recharge effect is a little complicated, I'll grant you. But then, this is magus :)

For slashing grace, I was thinking it might be one of the magus styles. Currently I have:

(snipped for space)

This replaces spell recall and improved spell recall. Some of them are pretty out of wack powerwise, I know.

The recharge effect also seems like it's an unnecessary change to a big, defining feature is part of the problem I'm having with it. Again, I never saw crits with destruction as being an issue, the lack of support for anything else bothered me more.

As for Styles, while I like the concept of having them, the ones you've presented are just... Really dull and underwhelming. Especially when compared to Pathfinder Savant's version of the same idea. You already said they might be whack, so it's probably not worth ripping into them when they're a first draft, but finesse especially feels like it's gobbling up space for more interesting things. Maybe the same could be said about making it an Arcana, though. I also sort of feel like Paizo is way too paranoid about dex-to-damage and makes it jump through way too many hoops, the limitations on the Grace feats alone are asinine.

While I know the playtest may be a ways off, it might be good to keep a personal homebrew archetype that utilize Spheres of Might so you can refine ideas for later. Drop the laughable Medium/Armor features (and possibly fighter training, since it's clumsily implemente) in order to present additional options. let someone use equipment sphere to pick what armor (if any at all) they want from the get-go, or forgoe armor entirely to get a Canny Dodge/Prescient Dodger effect

[A.J.Gibson]

The recharge effect also seems like it's an unnecessary change to a big, defining feature is part of the problem I'm having with it. Again, I never saw crits with destruction as being an issue, the lack of support for anything else bothered me more.

As for Styles, while I like the concept of having them, the ones you've presented are just... Really dull and underwhelming. Especially when compared to Pathfinder Savant's version of the same idea. You already said they might be whack, so it's probably not worth ripping into them when they're a first draft, but finesse especially feels like it's gobbling up space for more interesting things. Maybe the same could be said about making it an Arcana, though. I also sort of feel like Paizo is way too paranoid about dex-to-damage and makes it jump through way too many hoops, the limitations on the Grace feats alone are asinine.

While I know the playtest may be a ways off, it might be good to keep a personal homebrew archetype that utilize Spheres of Might so you can refine ideas for later. Drop the laughable Medium/Armor features (and possibly fighter training, since it's clumsily implemented) in order to present additional options. let someone use equipment sphere to pick what armor (if any at all) they want from the get-go, or forgoe armor entirely to get a Canny Dodge/Prescient Dodger effect

The problem I have with crit/destruction is that it's the only really viable build. I want to find a way to boost other builds to keep up, other than 'you can crit with everything'. It could be something as simple as 'when you spellstrike, you do extra damage' rather than getting a damage boost when you crit.

As for the styles: the styles only replace spell recall and improved spell recall, so they are fairly limited. I'll probably include a way for them to interact with Fighter Training (so you can train in the weapons you actually use). I have to keep the styles short. The book I'm writing is supposed to be 5 archetypes at 5k total; Savant's book is 3k (I think). I can only cram so much into one archetype. I think I'll drop the agile style and just give the magus access to rogue talents, and then they can take prescient dodger. I put slashing grace into it's own style, so two-weapon fighters couldn't get it. Not certain that was the right was to do it.

[Drifter S.]

The problem I have with crit/destruction is that it's the only really viable build. I want to find a way to boost other builds to keep up, other than 'you can crit with everything'. It could be something as simple as 'when you spellstrike, you do extra damage' rather than getting a damage boost when you crit.

That's sort of the reason for the thread though, asking how to make more things viable as a pure magus? Crit-fishing with destruction being the only viable build is in large part because it's both the only thing with the most (and arguably only) support behind it, and it is the easiest and flashiest thing you can do. Like, offhand the only thing with similar support now is Life, but only with ranks in Heal and when curing yourself/an adjacent target?

As for the styles: the styles only replace spell recall and improved spell recall, so they are fairly limited. I'll probably include a way for them to interact with Fighter Training (so you can train in the weapons you actually use). I have to keep the styles short. The book I'm writing is supposed to be 5 archetypes at 5k total; Savant's book is 3k (I think). I can only cram so much into one archetype. I think I'll drop the agile style and just give the magus access to rogue talents, and then they can take prescient dodger. I put slashing grace into it's own style, so two-weapon fighters couldn't get it. Not certain that was the right was to do it.

Savant also had a lot of text that could be either condensed or dropped entirely to save immensely on word count, but that's sort of beside the point you're trying to make. Precision Style being locked from TWF seems sort of silly when the whole class kind of forces you towards einhanding (barring significant investment), but the wording of the ability probably needs clarifications and such anyway.

Spoiler: More in-depth style thoughts

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To go down styles real quick, though most suffer from the 11th feature just not feeling worth only coming on at 11, which you can't really avoid without altering more features. I would also say it almost feels like you should be able to pick two of them somehow? If some get redistributed to Arcana then you can likely ignore that.

• Agile Style isn't necessarily bad since it stacks on Light Armor, it's just really barebones and lacks much impact. Giving the option to take Prescient Dodger by giving rogue talents or access via Arcana probably works better, especially if the option to completely drop armor proficiency will be a thing in SoM.
• Beast Style seems like it's torn between "basically UMonk Flurry except locked to Unarmed" and wanting to open Natural Attacks up. If it actually can be the former then, well, that's really cool, especially if you allow the option to take Prescient Dodger.
• Heavy Weapon Style trades one annoyance (Str losing its primary benefit) of Spell Combat for making another weakness (keeping AC up as a Str Magus) worse. It's not actually that bad with SoM and buffs in mind, it just comes off as dull.
• Marauding Style seems solid actually, but it does kind of look like it's... Missing something to make it really come together. I would tack on Sharding for a pool ability as well, but that's just me.
• Precision Style I already noted as probably being better placed as a feat/arcana, but it also as-written lets you pick up an Estoc or something to two-hand it and get 1.5x damage, so long as you don't use Spell Combat. Auto-confirming crits at 11 is also just stupid good, though maybe I'd be wrong in saying nothing else has this at this level. Something like Kensai probably has a high enough confirm bonus that they might as well have autoconfirms, but still.
• Ranged Style is incomplete, but if someone wanted to use a ranged weapon with Spell Combat that might be something they would want to be capable of doing from the get-go, rather than waiting 4 levels.
• Shielding Style kinda ends up in the same boat as Agile, with the added confusion of the buckler thing. First ability granting proficiency and letting you both cast and use spell combat without losing it seems like a bare minimum. The Shield Bash and immediate action thing I'm having a hard time commenting on.

[A.J.Gibson]

Savant also had a lot of text that could be either condensed or dropped entirely to save immensely on word count, but that's sort of beside the point you're trying to make. Precision Style being locked from TWF seems sort of silly when the whole class kind of forces you towards einhanding (barring significant investment), but the wording of the ability probably needs clarifications and such anyway.

To go down styles real quick, though most suffer from the 11th feature just not feeling worth only coming on at 11, which you can't really avoid without altering more features. I would also say it almost feels like you should be able to pick two of them somehow? If some get redistributed to Arcana then you can likely ignore that.

• Agile Style isn't necessarily bad since it stacks on Light Armor, it's just really barebones and lacks much impact. Giving the option to take Prescient Dodger by giving rogue talents or access via Arcana probably works better, especially if the option to completely drop armor proficiency will be a thing in SoM.
• Beast Style seems like it's torn between "basically UMonk Flurry except locked to Unarmed" and wanting to open Natural Attacks up. If it actually can be the former then, well, that's really cool, especially if you allow the option to take Prescient Dodger.
• Heavy Weapon Style trades one annoyance (Str losing its primary benefit) of Spell Combat for making another weakness (keeping AC up as a Str Magus) worse. It's not actually that bad with SoM and buffs in mind, it just comes off as dull.
• Marauding Style seems solid actually, but it does kind of look like it's... Missing something to make it really come together. I would tack on Sharding for a pool ability as well, but that's just me.
• Precision Style I already noted as probably being better placed as a feat/arcana, but it also as-written lets you pick up an Estoc or something to two-hand it and get 1.5x damage, so long as you don't use Spell Combat. Auto-confirming crits at 11 is also just stupid good, though maybe I'd be wrong in saying nothing else has this at this level. Something like Kensai probably has a high enough confirm bonus that they might as well have autoconfirms, but still.
• Ranged Style is incomplete, but if someone wanted to use a ranged weapon with Spell Combat that might be something they would want to be capable of doing from the get-go, rather than waiting 4 levels.
• Shielding Style kinda ends up in the same boat as Agile, with the added confusion of the buckler thing. First ability granting proficiency and letting you both cast and use spell combat without losing it seems like a bare minimum. The Shield Bash and immediate action thing I'm having a hard time commenting on.

I might move slashing grace into a separate magus arcana so anyone can poach it.
With prescient dodger, agile style can be cut.
Beast style is supposed to go with an alteration themed magus. You grow claws and then go to town.
For heavy weapon style, going from one handed to two handed for the magus is such a huge thing, I didn't thinking it was a good idea to hand it all to them up front.
For marauder, I intend to add in weapon properties, I just haven't gotten around to it.
I thought kensai did get auto-confirm, which I why have it here. I'll change it to CAM to confirmation rolls instead, and maybe steal something else for the level 4.
I think ranged style needs to go. As you said, people will want to play ranged from level 1, and trying to encompass everything into one archetype is too much.
Shielding style grants buckler incase the magus doesn't have shield proficiency. It's based on the skirnir ability.

I forgot to include two-weapon style:

Twin Weapon Style
At 4th level, the magus can use spell combat while attacking with a light weapon in each hand or with a double weapon. The -2 penalty for using spell combat does not stack with the penalties for fighting with two weapons. The magus may enhance two weapons (or two ends of a double weapon) at the same time for 1 arcane point using his arcane pool. Both weapons must receive the same enhancement.
At 11th level, whenever the magus uses spell strike, he may attack with two light weapons, or both ends of a double weapon. If either attack hits, the sphere ability affects the target.

[Kurald Galain]

See, the scimitar/Destruction Magus is so prevalent because that is about the only thing that the current Magus archetype is good at.

Well, I'm not sure about the sphere Magus, but the standard Magus is highly effective as a battlefield controller, or as a debuffer, or as a combat maneuver specialist; and is one of the most mobile melee combatants. This is mainly due to its highly versatile spell list, which is effectively the second-best spell list in the game (after the wizard's, of course; and discounting the top-level spells which don't apply to most campaigns anyway). The critfisher Magus is common because it (1) is easy to play and (2) has one of the highest spike damage in the game, but it's hardly the only game in town.

A common response at this point is "but the wizard does it better!" Note on the one hand that the wizard is arguably the strongest class in the game, so "weaker than the wizard" is not an insult; on the other hand the Magus does have better AC / hit points / saving throws than the wizard.

Recommend reading material for anyone contemplating Magus changes.

[Drifter S.]

Well, I'm not sure about the sphere Magus, but the standard Magus is highly effective as a battlefield controller, or as a debuffer, or as a combat maneuver specialist; and is one of the most mobile melee combatants. This is mainly due to its highly versatile spell list, which is effectively the second-best spell list in the game (after the wizard's, of course; and discounting the top-level spells which don't apply to most campaigns anyway). The critfisher Magus is common because it (1) is easy to play and (2) has one of the highest spike damage in the game, but it's hardly the only game in town.

A common response at this point is "but the wizard does it better!" Note on the one hand that the wizard is arguably the strongest class in the game, so "weaker than the wizard" is not an insult; on the other hand the Magus does have better AC / hit points / saving throws than the wizard.

Recommend reading material for anyone contemplating Magus changes.

The thing I've found about Magus, from personal tinkering and asking around, is that its many relatively minor design flaws and interactions that add up to be frustrating, though that could be said of the system as a whole. Between variety getting taken away from it (rip Grace feats and Arcane Deed, hopefully Dervish Dance never joins you in the trash), stuff that's always been trash (most arcana and archetypes), or just inferior enough to make it not worth it (all of Shocking Grasp's competition) your choices are narrow. Then there's rather minor gripes, like the Gnome FCB not being an arcana for everyone (a "pick 3" would be nice), and armor being both delayed and mandatory causing headaches for Dex and Str alike.

As far as spell versatility goes, Vancian Magus's Spell Combat only works with Magus spells so he has to stick to it, and he has the benefit of being a prepared arcane caster with numerous ways to poach off of other lists. It has to fight with its main damage source being drawn out of the same spot as its utility/buffs, but you will have tons of tricks to whip out while still swinging away. Sphere magus solves the problem of Shocking Grasp being unchallenged by letting you pick from a wider variety of fully functional touch blasts right off the bat, but then presents the problem that your overall versatility has been shot in both knees and the blasts are weakened unless you focus on one group, all thanks to how Sphere Caster Levels work. There's also the whole "Arcane Pool being folded into spell pool" thing too, but just separating them out again is an agreed upon solution.

Thus, the point of this thread in particular has been trying to come up with ways to make either magus options or a standalone archetype that uses Spheres of Power and gives the player a good reason to stick with it.

[Kurald Galain]

stuff that's always been trash (most arcana and archetypes), or just inferior enough to make it not worth it (all of Shocking Grasp's competition)

It's complete and utter nonsense that most of the Magus's arcana and archetypes, or most of his spells other than shocking grasp, are trash. Shock Magus isn't even the best build (one-trick ponies seldom are); it's merely the most played one. You can easily play an effective and damaging Magus without that one particular spell (as evidenced by the many people who do).

[Drifter S.]

It's complete and utter nonsense that most of the Magus's arcana and archetypes, or most of his spells other than shocking grasp, are trash. Shock Magus isn't even the best build (one-trick ponies seldom are); it's merely the most played one. You can easily play an effective and damaging Magus without that one particular spell (as evidenced by the many people who do).

Archetypes I can give you since my group(s) tends to be much harsher on whether things are decent or not, such as considering Eldritch Scion a hard downgrade. I was intending the point on shocking grasp to be a comment on direct competition between options attempting to do the same sort of thing (single target lethal spike damage 1st level spells, minimal investment for maximum potential) and not a criticism of the entirety of the magus list, but evidently I dropped the ball hard in conveying that. Arcana not being majority bad I will not believe as even though the perception of a disparity between "worth it" and not probably hinges on an individual's opinion, your own guide's arcana section pretty cleanly lays out how you find only around 19 of the 60+ arcana worth rating green or above.

Again though, this particular thread is less about the Vancian Casting Magus as it is about the Magus in regards to Spheres of Power. Wherein the exaggerated "one trick" becomes dangerously close to being less of an exaggeration by nature of how spheres scale, how talents work, and Magus's Spell Combat no longer requiring him to stick around.