OOTS #1101 - The Discussion Thread

[Lord Torath]

The staff is one of their own valuable resources, so this argumentation is void.

From what I understand, your overall assumption is that casting the spell should have a higher cost (in spell slots, time, vampire bodies, etc.) than it appears to. Is that the main thrust of your objection?

But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?

Obviously, the "Accelerated Raise Vampirie spell stored in the staff is low-enough level that Fake Durkon can memorize it many times, and has an area of effect great enough to be able to raise the number of vampires we see.

[alwaysbebatman]

There was absolutely zero loss or investment for the staff. It literally fell into Durkon*'s hand when Nale murdered Malack.

[Ganbatte]

From what I understand, your overall assumption is that casting the spell should have a higher cost (in spell slots, time, vampire bodies, etc.) than it appears to. Is that the main thrust of your objection?

I just don't like how something that had a reasonably priced cost-reward (staff with powerful effects -but!- limited uses) got turned into "cast it as many times as you want for cheap!".
Bleh.

There was absolutely zero loss or investment for the staff. It literally fell into Durkon*'s hand when Nale murdered Malack.

Doesn't matter. If you find 100$ down the road and then subsequently lose them 5 minutes later you've still lost 100 bucks.
Losing the staff as a price for summoning two vampire armies made a pretty balanced exchange, having to spend just a few spell slots for the same powerful effect which is now available forever isn't.

[alwaysbebatman]

I just don't like how something that had a reasonably priced cost-reward (staff with powerful effects -but!- limited uses) got turned into "cast it as many times as you want for cheap!".
Bleh.

But it's not unlimited OR cheap. Every use costs him a 3rd level or higher spell slot that he can't use for anything else that day. Once he uses all of the instances he allotted, he can't cast it again till dusk.

And he doesn't expect to see any more dusks.



ETA: he didn't lose the staff in exchange for anything. He lost the staff to trick Roy (and the audience) into thinking he couldn't raise vampires quickly anymore.

The staff would still have been valuable (to save some slots at least (unless it was in fact empty)) but not as valuable as Roy walking into this trap without expecting it.

[Gnome Alone]

One thing about undead-heavy RPG campaigns I never could stomach: all the damn vampires.

You are my new hero.

[Yendor]

ETA: he didn't lose the staff in exchange for anything. He lost the staff to trick Roy (and the audience) into thinking he couldn't raise vampires quickly anymore.

The staff would still have been valuable (to save some slots at least (unless it was in fact empty)) but not as valuable as Roy walking into this trap without expecting it.

That's a very good point. Even if the staff was whole, if it stayed with Macey Grey, it would lull Roy into a false sense of security.

[Keltest]

Personally, I find the idea of thee low-to-mid level clerics and Greg (who shouldn't have many spell slots available) being able to kill more than a dozen dwarves with their Blood Drain without anybody getting away to be far more problematic than the idea that he could quicken that many vampires. That thing deals con damage, it doesn't go through HP, and it requires a grapple. Unless the were all the most sickly and weak dwarves in the entire kingdom, then the non-combatant acolytes and worshipers at least should have been able to run for help. The action economy just doesn't work out well in my mind.

[Friv]

Personally, I find the idea of thee low-to-mid level clerics and Greg (who shouldn't have many spell slots available) being able to kill more than a dozen dwarves with their Blood Drain without anybody getting away to be far more problematic than the idea that he could quicken that many vampires. That thing deals con damage, it doesn't go through HP, and it requires a grapple. Unless the were all the most sickly and weak dwarves in the entire kingdom, then the non-combatant acolytes and worshipers at least should have been able to run for help. The action economy just doesn't work out well in my mind.

Don't forget the immense power of Dominate against lower-level opponents. Assuming that Greg has Charisma 12 (Durkon's 8 + Vampire 4), that's a DC 19 saving throw he can do as a standard action. Most low-level characters fail that three times out of four. If the other vampires are busy grappling the people who save, while Greg sends the Dominated people to grapple people he hasn't reached yet, you could get through twelve people in a hurry.

[schmunzel]

But it wouldn't replicate "The rain in Spain falls mainly in the plain" as well.
<snip>

believe me - for this kind of thing your brain blood flow will better be in top order

sch

[schmunzel]

You are my new hero.

can someone please explain this pun to me ? Im either to dumb, to tired (3days in a row), not anglophil enough or am missing some crucial popcultural ingredient in this one ...

sch

ps
"One thing about undead-heavy RPG campaigns I never could stomach: all the damn vampires. " was Giggling Ghasts doing

[Onyavar]

This is bad. Incredibly bad. It's an almost worst case scenario.

If there's something i learned playing Baldur's Gate series games is that YOU SHOULD NEVER EVER get into melee with monster with energy drain without heavy cleric support. By 3.5 RAW, each one of these spawn inflict a negative level. This is bad enough for warriors, but is especially critical for casters, who LOSE one daily spell of the highest level per negative level.

Is BG the right reference to compare with OotS though? I played it with a core rules mod and vampires really really sucked. In BG, a party with the resources that OotS has now, were going to utterly lose against even only half as many v spawns, I'd wager. Afaik PC games are always more difficult than P&p for various reasons but still..

Calling it now, the Order's not going to get all of the spawn, and vampirism becomes a major problem in Dwarven lands for years to come, if not a catastrophe representing a major loss to the forces of good (not unlike the loss of Azure City).

Definitively what I assume too. That was my idea since the Godsmoot: they'll manage for Durkon to become normal again, eventually kill Xykon, and Roy will claim they saved the world...

Cue several panels of Hobbotopia conquering Cliffport, the Western continent under supreme rule of Tarquin, the Dwarven capitol under siege by vampires, Greysky being renamed as Golemtown, all the gates open and in bad need of repair, the IFCC storming the upper planes and so on: Nice job, Roy.

The prevailing theory is:

• The Rapid Vampirization spell likely uses Animate Dead as its template.
• Therefore it's a third level clerical spell...
• So all of Durkon*'s Vampire clerics could cast it from as many 3rd or higher slots they wanted to devote...
• AND, each casting would accelerate a number of Vampires whose HD are no more than DOUBLE the caster level of the vamp cleric who cast it...
• So.... yeah, that could add up.

It all depends on how many slots they wanted to save for combat spells, or if they intended to rely entirely on vampiric abilities...

You know I read the entire thread on the lookout for a good and concise geekery summary, and I only find what I wanted now? Couldn't you have posted that at the first page??? ;-P

[Chei]

Personally, I find the idea of thee low-to-mid level clerics and Greg (who shouldn't have many spell slots available) being able to kill more than a dozen dwarves with their Blood Drain without anybody getting away to be far more problematic than the idea that he could quicken that many vampires. That thing deals con damage, it doesn't go through HP, and it requires a grapple. Unless the were all the most sickly and weak dwarves in the entire kingdom, then the non-combatant acolytes and worshipers at least should have been able to run for help. The action economy just doesn't work out well in my mind.

Low-to-mid is something I'd contest here. We saw one of the clerics cast Greater Dispel Magic, a sixth-level spell. That woman is a minimum of 11, so mid, and she is probably about equal to Gontor, who was her leader and made direct reference to using high-level spell slots. I am thinking Greg's minions are mid-to-high, rather than low-to-mid. Durkon* himself is in the 13-15 range, and we should thank Thor that he probably doesn't have 8th-level spells.

Also, it's possible that most of these dwarves were killed by energy drain attacks, meaning they are guaranteed to rise as spawn regardless of HD, but it makes them much easier to kill quickly. It's possible that the blood draining was reserved for dwarves who proved themselves high enough to rise as vampires. For guards, that would be using two attacks per round (HD>=6), and for spellcasters, that would be casting a third-level spell.

For civilians, just a tap from a vampire would level-drain them to 0, making it almost effortless to raise them as spawn.

[ti'esar]

It does strike me as a little peculiar how many dwarves apparently died here. In the previous comics it looked like it was just Brother Sandstone and a few soldiers he had with him, as well as maybe one or two civilians unlucky enough to be nearby at the time. Now this looks like a full-scale massacre. You'd kind of think someone would have noticed.

[Kish]

Nah, that's storytelling perception fine and right. Like wands staffs are a handmade limited resource which offset their powerful spammable effects. The moment you remove the "limited" aspect of the spell spam you veer into broken cheesy territory.

Hate to break this to you, but every spell in D&D can be cast by some spellcaster or other, whether it can also be cast by a wand or a staff or not. If it's not something a spellcaster can cast it's not a spell. That you are offended by Greg staff-lessly quickening vampires rising and not by Vaarsuvius staff-lessly throwing around lightning, fire, ice, and forcecages is a personal issue.

can someone please explain this pun to me ? Im either to dumb, to tired (3days in a row), not anglophil enough or am missing some crucial popcultural ingredient in this one ...

sch

ps
"One thing about undead-heavy RPG campaigns I never could stomach: all the damn vampires. " was Giggling Ghasts doing

It's not a pun. It's a reference to the movie The Lost Boys.

[Ganbatte]

Hate to break this to you, but every spell in D&D can be cast by some spellcaster or other, whether it can also be cast by a wand or a staff or not. If it's not something a spellcaster can cast it's not a spell. That you are offended by Greg staff-lessly quickening vampires rising and not by Vaarsuvius staff-lessly throwing around lightning, fire, ice, and forcecages is a personal issue.

Wait, this is the part where my posts are grossly misread forcing me to correct things and repeat myself over and over, isn't it?
Because Greg staff-lessly quickening vampires has never been the issue, even less so of a personal one. Apparently the "too easily spammable" part of my complaint along with a bunch of other details I very throughly explained multiple times is being inexplicably ignored?

It does strike me as a little peculiar how many dwarves apparently died here. In the previous comics it looked like it was just Brother Sandstone and a few soldiers he had with him, as well as maybe one or two civilians unlucky enough to be nearby at the time. Now this looks like a full-scale massacre. You'd kind of think someone would have noticed.

Speaking of which, why were the vampires so hell-bent into opening that locked door back there? As we've been shown now that passage does nothing but lead to the other exit of the mountain, the one the Order used to come in. Did they not know?

[Chei]

Because Greg staff-lessly quickening vampires has never been the issue, even less so of a personal one. Apparently the "too easily spammable" part of my complaint along with a bunch of other details I very throughly explained multiple times is being inexplicably ignored?

I think a lot of the folks are now operating under the assumption that Quick-Bake Vampire/Spawn now targets multiple HD of creatures with each cast, making it require less spamming. Some folks are also carrying the assumption that it's relatively low-level as a spell. If it's a third-level spell, Durkon* alone could cast it over a dozen times if he prepared the higher-level slots for it, like that time V cast nothing but Suggestion because they were a lizard.

Speaking of which, why were the vampires so hell-bent into opening that locked door back there? As we've been shown now that passage does nothing but lead to the other exit of the mountain, the one the Order used to come in. Did they not know?

That passage is a major temple to Thor, according to the high priestess of Thor. Durkon*'s got a grudge. The temple has an entrance both from the outdoors and the town of Firmament, making it pretty important a strategic location on its own.

[Ruck]

I don't understand how a staff is "less spammable" than spell slots, but I also don't want to discuss it with someone who's constantly rude, insulting, and accusing others of arguing in bad faith.

[Jasdoif]

Wait, so staves can be recharged? I really need to go through the 3.5 rules more, instead of just character options and lore goodies...

Typically no, though exceptions and variant rules exist. (Due to their expense and variety of spells, staffs typically don't have enough charges for "use the staff to provide the spells to create an identical staff" type of "recharge" to be an option; they'll run out before you finish crafting the new staff)

[Ganbatte]

I don't understand how a staff is "less spammable" than spell slots,

You don't understand how an item with limited charges is less freely spammable than a "wait 8 hours and you can do it all again"?

It's like asking why spell slots are more convenient than carrying and re-buying a ton of scrolls.

[danielxcutter]

...hope Minrah prepared enough Restoration spells today.

[Kish]

Apparently the "too easily spammable" part of my complaint along with a bunch of other details I very throughly explained multiple times is being inexplicably ignored?

No. The fact that you hate Greg being able to quicken vampires rising is not being ignored, and "I hate it" is all the actual information encoded in "it's too easily spammable." There is no objective measurement of "too easy" here, and "spammable" is just a snarl word to make casting Quicken Vampire Rising look somehow dirtier than casting Fireball.

Nor are any other details you have explained being ignored, though I'm afraid I'm not willing to pretend that repeated complaints and negative subjective judgments equal explaining, in objective terms, what rules Greg has so-obviously broken.

[Fincher]

It does strike me as a little peculiar how many dwarves apparently died here. In the previous comics it looked like it was just Brother Sandstone and a few soldiers he had with him, as well as maybe one or two civilians unlucky enough to be nearby at the time. Now this looks like a full-scale massacre. You'd kind of think someone would have noticed.

Do we really know that they all died there? They could have drained some of them elsewhere and had them come to this tunnel as part of the trap.

[Ruck]

No. The fact that you hate Greg being able to quicken vampires rising is not being ignored, and "I hate it" is all the actual information encoded in "it's too easily spammable." There is no objective measurement of "too easy" here, and "spammable" is just a snarl word to make casting Quicken Vampire Rising look somehow dirtier than casting Fireball.

Nor are any other details you have explained being ignored, though I'm afraid I'm not willing to pretend that repeated complaints and negative subjective judgments equal explaining, in objective terms, what rules Greg has so-obviously broken.

And you know what, it's fine to hate something, but that doesn't mean people are "playing dumb" or "passive-aggressive" if they don't hate it too, and it doesn't mean your hate is objective.

[Ganbatte]

No. The fact that you hate Greg being able to quicken vampires rising is not being ignored, and "I hate it" is all the actual information encoded in "it's too easily spammable." There is no objective measurement of "too easy" here, and "spammable" is just a snarl word to make casting Quicken Vampire Rising look somehow dirtier than casting Fireball.

Nor are any other details you have explained being ignored, though I'm afraid I'm not willing to pretend that repeated complaints and negative subjective judgments equal explaining, in objective terms, what rules Greg has so-obviously broken.

Lol.
Right after me saying that "Greg staff-lessly quickening vampires has never been the issue", *wham* "The fact that you hate Greg being able to quicken vampires rising is not being ignored".
What the hell? That's both ignoring my post AND making stuff up in replacement!

And broken rules? ...what? When did I ever say he's breaking rules?

What in the heck...

[Grey_Wolf_c]

And broken rules? ...what? When did I ever say he's breaking rules?

asspull

By declaring the ability of a priest to cast a priest spell with his priest spell slots an "asspull" you communicated that Greg was breaking the rules. Because, you see, that is what asspull means: that the author gave a character an ability it shouldn't have by the rules established in the story.

Except of course, it was clearly established that 1) spells can be researched and 2) that spells can be learnt from the staff and 3) that Greg did indeed spend the time necessary to do so.

Therefore there is no asspull, despite how much you dislike that a priest is capable of casting a priest spell with his priest spell slots.

Grey Wolf

[Ganbatte]

So here you are taking a single word completely out of context and building your own whole argument around it, and yet that other guy still chastizes me for accusing people of arguing in bad faith.

I suppose it's a matter of opinion but I always enjoyed more those kind of stories where the villains get things done by their own worth and craftiness and tricking the heroes by themselves rather than "rule-tweaking on the side" and asspulls. A villain that's dangerous because he's good at what he does always feels more compelling than one with luck and a GM by his side.
Giving the villains an edge to make the heroes' victory greater is always good and nice but you have to keep restraint in mind, otherwise the story will get that feeling of "cheesiness" when things go just a little bit too well too often "on just one side".
I suppose it's a matter of personal standards in appreciating storytelling.

Here, the original post you so conveniently butchered.
Notice how it's a completely abstract and general explanation of my view on storytelling and nowhere is ever mentioned Durkon, priests or spellcasting in it.

[KorvinStarmast]

It does strike me as a little peculiar how many dwarves apparently died here. In the previous comics it looked like it was just Brother Sandstone and a few soldiers he had with him, as well as maybe one or two civilians unlucky enough to be nearby at the time. Now this looks like a full-scale massacre. You'd kind of think someone would have noticed.

Rich is allowed his plot holes. He's the author. But think about this: maybe a few of the dead down the hall were dwarfs who came looking for the missing ...

I went back and checked. The three dead in panel 7 we see from the rear perspective in panel 12. Nice touch, in terms of attention to detail.

[Doug Lampert]

You don't understand how an item with limited charges is less freely spammable than a "wait 8 hours and you can do it all again"?

It's like asking why spell slots are more convenient than carrying and re-buying a ton of scrolls.

One thing lets you do it many times in one day. The other lets you do it a limited number of times in each day.

But: If you have unlimited days, then the ability is POINTLESS! It is of value only because of time pressure, and guess what, with time pressure the staff is MUCH BETTER than slots.

Using slots is only more powerful if you have unlimited time, because clerics can only prepare once every day (8 hours is utterly and totally irrelevant to cleric preparation). And if you have unlimited time you don't need the spell at all.

When you need this spell, the staff is the STRONGER option.

[Peelee]

I wouldn't "prefer" anything (where did that come from?), having a staff with almost-exhausted charges and full power doesn't feel cheesy since they paid a hefty price for achieving this result, the loss of a powerful magic item.
Having to pay just a few spell slots to achieve the same powerful result feels cheesy instead since there's no long-term loss or investment paid for it.

On a side note, I'm definitely seeing more passive-aggressiveness to come in the following responses, so forgive me if I don't bother responding to your posts anymore.

I think you're confusing passive-aggressive and confrontational. I'm being confrontational. I'm not being passive aggressive. I'm directly asking what your stance is, then challenging that stance. There's nothing either passive or aggressive about it.

Now, you assume it's "a few spell slots." You don't know how many, or what level. You are assuming something, then complaining about that assumption. This is most likely one of the reasons you are having a problem with it, whole nobody else is. It's a silly foundation on which to build your argument.

Despite your insistence in not answering a hypothetical, I'm getting the song feeling that you wouldn't be complaining if The babies were using the staff to achieve this exact effect. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, because that's where my assumption on your preference came from.

Not to mention the "price" they paid was the loss of a powerful magic item that they got for free to begin with.

[Ganbatte]

One thing lets you do it many times in one day. The other lets you do it a limited number of times in each day.

But: If you have unlimited days, then the ability is POINTLESS! It is of value only because of time pressure, and guess what, with time pressure the staff is MUCH BETTER than slots.

Using slots is only more powerful if you have unlimited time, because clerics can only prepare once every day (8 hours is utterly and totally irrelevant to cleric preparation). And if you have unlimited time you don't need the spell at all.

When you need this spell, the staff is the STRONGER option.

Indeed, which is why you don't want to use it too freely else said stronger option exhausts all its charges and is no longer available.
This makes the staff "less easily spammable" than expandable and easily replenished spell slots.

Despite your insistence in not answering a hypothetical, I'm getting the song feeling that you wouldn't be complaining if The babies were using the staff to achieve this exact effect. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, because that's where my assumption on your preference came from.

....My insistence in what? I already answered this question in detail.

Not to mention the "price" they paid was the loss of a powerful magic item that they got for free to begin with.

And this one too.