OOTS #1101 - The Discussion Thread

[skaddix]

That seems like an awful amount of spell slots to use, not to mention I thought they had to be Drained to come back as a vamp.

Personally, I think this is an excellent opportunity for Roy to test out his new power with his Ancestral Weapon.

Could have learned a mass version?

Nice Bluff Though.

[warmachine]

Blackwing is cheeky. Ravens only get low light vision, so they can't see in the dark either.

[Fyraltari]

Do not worry then, because that is not what I'm doing.
I'm just gonna sit back and wait for the next strip where Vaarsuvius discovers that the Fireball spell has suddenly become infinite in slots and thus frying all the vampires just as incredibly easily as they were created, and tinkers be damned.

Edit: hell maybe Roy's sword might turn into a lightsaber too, I mean, great drama there too.

Again drama happens when things are difficult for the heroes and easier for the villains.
If it requires a bit of rule-tweaking on the side so be it. Did you not listen to Tarquin on 821 ?

[Curupira]

Blackwing is cheeky. Ravens only get low light vision, so they can't see in the dark either.

Yes, but he's not an ordinary raven. Doesn't wizard familiars get their masters' perception bonuses and perks (and V is an elf)?

[Gordreg]

Who's that in the bottom-right of the last panel, below Elan? It kind-of looks like Durkon - is it Durkula, or just another Vampire dwarf that's risen up behind them?

[warmachine]

Yes, but he's not an ordinary raven. Doesn't wizard familiars get their masters' perception bonuses and perks (and V is an elf)?

Familiars get their master's hit dice, skill ranks, base attack bonus, base saving throws etc. but not other features. Besides, elves have low light vision, not darkvision.

[Sir_Norbert]

So, basically Haley is smarter than the whole forum... What a wonderful writing.

Nope. I don't have time to dig it out, but I definitely saw at least one person guess this twist.

[Manty5]

So, basically Haley is smarter than the whole forum... What a wonderful writing.

I'd be more impressed with her foresight if she hadn't been completely and utterly suckered by Durkula's identity before the reveal.

[Peelee]

I've got a teddy bear that's like a continuous light and death ward that also keeps undead with six or fewer hit dice from approaching, you want it? (I'll worry about replacing it the next time I can't get out of going to the Negative Energy Plane for research....)

I fully expect a catch. Like, it's an actual bear named Teddy or something.

I fully expect Durkon to have lost a level or two in EXP from doing this, otherwise I'm gonna be pretty angry.

What the hell? I thought Oots was happening in a universe where everyone has to play by the rules, but apparently that doesn't apply to the villains?

Ten gold on "Ganbette gonna be pretty angry." Additional five on "she doesn't know the rule about spell research despite being used and mentioned several times in-comic."

[NecroDancer]

The art for this comic has really come far. That last panal is amazing!

[hagnat]

New comic is up.

and so are a bunch of vampires

[Gift Jeraff]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1087.html
Seems possible the first panel referred to placing the corpses and/or casting the spell.

[Lord Torath]

I think I'm a little lost though - wouldn't Not-Durkon have had to prepare individual spells for each person he raised? How many slots could he possibly have?

It takes 3+ charges from the staff to make a mummy ("a couple" = 2-3; "a few" generally implies 3-5, and Tarkie strikes me as lawful enough to use the correct term). No mention of how many charges are required to raise Durkon as a Vampire. I also don't know how the number of charges relates to the level of the spell.

Re the title: Wouldn't "Raising Suspicion" make more sense as a pun? Could it be a typo?

Rise is something a thing does itself. "I rise from my bed." Raise is something done to something else. "I raise my hand." "My hand rises when I raise it". The vampires are rising from the tunnel floor, so "Rising Suspicion" works. There's "raising the dead", but oft times people talk about "the dead rising". It could probably go either way.

[Kish]

I fully expect Durkon to have lost a level or two in EXP from doing this, otherwise I'm gonna be pretty angry.
I mean, it's way too OP and convenient to now have "just learnt" the spell from the artifact-staff and be able to cast it willy nilly.
And what the hell is this, AoE effect? Assuming such a spell has a pretty high level slot how did he even manage to store so many casts to raise so many vampires within a single rest period?

What the hell? I thought Oots was happening in a universe where everyone has to play by the rules, but apparently that doesn't apply to the villains?

Nobody has to play by the "you lose a level from casting a non-core spell lots of times" rule, because that rule doesn't exist.

Nor does anybody have to play by your assumptions. That is: At sixth level or higher it would be highly unlikely that Greg could prepare the spell that many times. Therefore, the logical conclusion is that the spell is no higher than fifth level. You can assume it's eighth level and gnash your teeth about Rich's letting Greg godmode, but that doesn't change the fact that the only rule violation is coming from inside the houseyour head.

[KorvinStarmast]

They are really NOT fans of the concept of level drain, and started D&D at a time (red and blue boxes for Basic D&D) where a vampire's touch was a -2 levels sentence

In those days, I don't recall there being Vampire Spawn as a separate and lower level Vamp. It was Vamp, and eventually one slain by a vamp became a vamp under t heir control. I think even 1e left a lot of detail open until, maybe MM II?? (Memory foggy)
I'll need to take a look ... for some reason, I think vampire spawn formally entered D&D in 2e, but I may not be remembering that right.

Rise is something a thing does itself. "I rise from my bed." Raise is something done to something else. "I raise my hand." "My hand rises when I raise it". The vampires are rising from the tunnel floor, so "Rising Suspicion" works. There's "raising the dead", but oft times people talk about "the dead rising". It could probably go either way.

Nicely explained, for native English speakers and non native English speakers alike.

[The Pilgrim]

I'm revisiting strips 1086 and 1087, and I have the feeling that there is an implicit hiatus between them in which Greg's underlings did in fact cast the "hasten vampire awakening" spell on the victims. ("Everything's ready, Master", "Excellent. Thank you")

[b_jonas]

I assumed (b) to be the case, regardless. Is there a usual level range between a spell and its mass version? I.e. if the single target is level 3, would the mass version be, say, 5?

It differs between spells, for balance reasons. However, I personally think that in case of this quick vampire rising spell, the difference would only be one or two levels.

This is because balance-wise the spell seems analogous to the Summon Monster spells. Those spells quickly create monsters that help you by fighting and obey you. Quickly raising vampire spawns to help you seems similar enough to that. There's a whole ladder of these spells, one for each spell level starting from 1. If the Summon Monster 5 spell can summon a particular monster, such as a Bearded Devil, then the spell one level higher, Summon monster 6, can summon 1d3 monsters of that type of monster, and the spell two higher, Summon Monster 7, can summon 1+1d4 monsters of that type.

I have to admit though that another similar spell, Planar Ally, works differently. The level 4 spell Lesser Planar Ally lets you call one Bearded Devil, the level 6 spell Planar Ally lets you call two Bearded Devils, and the level 8 spell Greater Planar Ally lets you call three Bearded Devils.

[Diashi]

Bring me my Brown Pants!

[Breccia]

Round Two

FIGHT!

It's times like this, when I wonder how far in advance the plot is actually scripted. I've been a DM for *cough* years and I've never once put out a long-term plot twist like this. And this ain't exactly the first time, either.

I mean, there are two options.
A) This twist was really planned this far ahead, or
B) Upon review of older work, the option was noticed, and then used.

I mean, both are good options from either a game-running or writing perspective.

[Kish]

Familiars get their master's hit dice, skill ranks, base attack bonus, base saving throws etc. but not other features. Besides, elves have low light vision, not darkvision.

As previously mentioned, all magical beasts, which means all familiars, have darkvision.

[GM_3826]

Oh ****.

Well, the Order is boned.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I see everyone missed the 'sun bear' pun. Man, these vampires have really thrown the Playground for a loop.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It differs between spells, for balance reasons. However, I personally think that in case of this quick vampire rising spell, the difference would only be one or two levels.

This is because balance-wise the spell seems analogous to the Summon Monster spells. Those spells quickly create monsters that help you by fighting and obey you. Quickly raising vampire spawns to help you seems similar enough to that. There's a whole ladder of these spells, one for each spell level starting from 1. If the Summon Monster 5 spell can summon a particular monster, such as a Bearded Devil, then the spell one level higher, Summon monster 6, can summon 1d3 monsters of that type of monster, and the spell two higher, Summon Monster 7, can summon 1+1d4 monsters of that type.

I have to admit though that another similar spell, Planar Ally, works differently. The level 4 spell Lesser Planar Ally lets you call one Bearded Devil, the level 6 spell Planar Ally lets you call two Bearded Devils, and the level 8 spell Greater Planar Ally lets you call three Bearded Devils.

Again, I'm afraid I have abandoned this line of thought. I have reviewed the spell list, and I think that the quicken vampire awakening is modeled most likely on the 3rd level spell Animate Dead, which awakens a set HD of undead all at once, so it is "mass animate" already.

Now, we can quibble about what level the Quicken Vampire Awakening spell might be, but given that the vampires already exist, and all the spell is doing is just move up the timetable of them wakening, I would not be surprised if Rich had pegged it at level 3 as well.

Spoiler: My version of the spell

Show

Awaken Vampire
Necromancy [Evil]
Level: Clr 3, Death 3, Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Targets: One or more newly created vampires touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell hastens the process of Create Spawn by eliminating the requirement for a burial and 1d4 days of waiting. The vampire awakens immediately. If the new vampire is under the command of an existing vampire, they take control of the vampire. If the new vampire is free-willed, this spell does not give you control over them.

A vampire awoken through this spell does not have a coffin, and until they claim an empty one for themselves, they are destroyed if reduced to 0 HP. A coffin is claimed by resting in it uninterrupted for at least 8 hours. A coffin can only be claimed by one vampire at a time.

Regardless of the type of vampire you awaken with this spell, you can’t awaken more HD of vampire than twice your caster level with a single casting of Awaken Vampire. (The desecrate spell doubles this limit)

Material Component
You must place a black onyx gem worth at least 25 gp per Hit Die of the vampire into the mouth of each corpse you intend to awaken. The magic of the spell turns these gems into worthless, burned-out shells.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

I see everyone missed the 'sun bear' pun. Man, these vampires have really thrown the Playground for a loop.

That was a pun?

[Kardwill]

I mean, there are two options.
A) This twist was really planned this far ahead, or
B) Upon review of older work, the option was noticed, and then used.

In my experience, in a game, option B is both easier and quite often more satisfying. Especially if a player threw the idea around and you grab it and run with it because it sounds cool (Meaning that if this would be my campaign, it would be Haley's player who would have come up with the idea, and I steal it gleefuly when I hear it ^^)

[GeometryGuru]

This comic was a perfect, "No it can't be. It IS! No wait! Yes it was!" situation for me.

[Jasdoif]

I see everyone missed the 'sun bear' pun. Man, these vampires have really thrown the Playground for a loop.

That was a pun?

Sun bears are among the smallest bears, but "this cuddly teddy bear is also a nightlight that blocks negative energy and repels some undead" seemed more amusing/appropriate.

[Shining Wrath]

I do not want to start nitpicking here but the vein flows *from* the brain to the heart

sch

But it wouldn't replicate "The rain in Spain falls mainly in the plain" as well.

I'm afraid my position has changed somewhat since I posted that. It is my belief now that those vampires represent a couple of level-3 slots and 1 level-2 slot. Greg will NOT be limited by the number of slots in the slightest.

GW

I will argue that Malack's Vampire Accelerator is not perfectly akin to Animate Dead, but maybe more like Create Undead. What either spell does is allow a cleric to turn suitable raw materials into an undead monster. In this case, "suitable raw materials" means "a corpse that will become a vampire in 3 days". I'm going to argue that accelerating the process by 3 days is of slightly less difficulty than turning a corpse that wouldn't become a monster at all into an undead - not dramatically less. A mummy (which is what Durkula would get from a casting of Create Undead) is CR 5. A vampire spawn is CR 4. A vampire proper is CR [base creature CR] + 2, normally a minimum of 7 since 5 HD are required. Accelerating a CR 7 creature by 3 days might, plausibly, be of similar magical difficulty to creating a CR 5 one.

There's evidently no need for material components, which is another thing which argues for a higher spell slot. Both Animate Dead and Create Undead require gems for each body raised, but Malack didn't use one for Durkula. If I'm a DM and a player wants to research a spell which is like another one, but lets the player skip 250 GP (for a mummy and Create Undead) in material costs, I'm going to be tempted to raise the spell level as a consequence.

If Malack's Vampire Accelerator works like Animate Dead it's possible that only a few lower level slots were required. It cannot work exactly like Create Undead because that spell only animates one corpse per casting, at 6th level - there just aren't enough spell slots available to create the horde. It might be, though, that it's a 3rd level spell that works on one target rather than on as many as can be touched - the limiting factor on Animate Dead, at least at lower levels, is having a sufficient supply of onyx gems.

I don't think Rich is going to rule that Malack's Vampire Accelerator is as broken as making it equivalent to Animate Dead. I suspect it'll be a little harder to create vampire spawn than skeletons, and that not needing material components will also raise the level of the spell.

I'm gonna guess with enthusiastic optimism that Malack's Vampire Accelerator is level 3 or 4 and works on one target at a time; and that therefore, Team Fangface has paid a significant price in spell slots available for the coming battle with OotS in order to create this horde.

[mouser9169]

In those days, I don't recall there being Vampire Spawn as a separate and lower level Vamp. It was Vamp, and eventually one slain by a vamp became a vamp under t heir control. I think even 1e left a lot of detail open until, maybe MM II?? (Memory foggy)
I'll need to take a look ... for some reason, I think vampire spawn formally entered D&D in 2e, but I may not be remembering that right.

Oh man, I remember those days. Started with the Red Box meself.

Level drain SUCKED... The very first module most players went through "The Keep on the Borderlands" had a creature that drained one level per hit - and that was a module for players levels 1-3.

Basically, no one ever got much above 12-14th level (for a lot of reasons), as the level drains would be constantly setting you back at that point, and that was pretty much by design.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'm gonna guess with enthusiastic optimism that Malack's Vampire Accelerator is level 3 or 4 and works on one target at a time; and that therefore, Team Fangface has paid a significant price in spell slots available for the coming battle with OotS in order to create this horde.

The battle of the Temple happened "a little before dusk". Greg & co. have refreshed their spell slots since they turned all these into vampires. But if it really is one vampire per slot, I don't think they had enough slots between the whole lot of them to raise this many, plus the other spells we have seen them cast, plus whatever spells they needed for the fight.

GW