Reading Heir to the Empire

[pendell]

w
Given the relatively recent major war involving Clones and Jedi, it seems like this would either be common knowledge or impossible to discover. Unless Thrawn knows more about cloning than the Clonemasters and more about the Force than the Jedi.

Going strictly from films for the moment...

.. presumably the cloners of Kamino knew a lot more about cloning then anyone currently alive in the Thrawn books. They're dead or in hiding; their databanks and technology confiscated by the Empire.

The Jedi of the PT no doubt knew more in their little fingers than Thrawn will ever know in his whole body about the Force. They are almost all dead; the Empire took their temple and their library with it.

Take these two archival pools and the research equivalent of an Ensign Mihel, some very bright person handpicked by Thrawn for being quickminded and inventive. Give that person the task of solving the problem of finding a way to reproduce clones in a hurry, and you get the Last Command.

Much of Thrawn's genius isn't about his own brilliance; it's his ability to find talented people, to put them to work and to motivate them. A subplot of this books is his tireless mentoring of Captain Pelleaon. If he ever gets tired of being admiral for the Imperial Navy, any firm in the galaxy would want him as CEO.

Thrawn doesn't need to be brilliant himself in every aspect or be an infallible genius; he simply needs to have the services of very bright people, and be able to motivate them. Much like Professor Xavier in the X-men comics. If anyone ever reads Piers Antony's Bio of a Space Tyrant series (Warning: rated NC-17), you'll see the same dynamic at play. Again, the Tyrant is not the best tactician nor the most devious spymaster, but he does know how to find those people and convince them to give him their best effort.

If you ever go onto the sequel books , you'll see what the Empire's capable of when you pair up a bright, motivated mind with Imperial resources, even when the Empire is a shadow of its former self.

You might also discover there are things you don't yet know about Thrawn and cloning ... but that would be telling .

If we expand beyond the universe of the films and these books to the wider old EU, the Traviss novels developed the idea that the Kamino cloners were not the only cloners in the galaxy. They were who you went to when you wanted the best and were willing to pay in both time and money to get it. But there are a bunch of other cutrate outfits who can get you clones cheaper and faster. The Spartacist method used in the Thrawn trilogy is from one of those other groups, not based on Kaminoan technology at all.

They're going to have to blow up the cloning complex, which Han is happy about because after hauling explosives all this way he'd prefer to use the damn things. That might not be enough, though, but there's a self destruct in the Throne room.

Am I the only one troubled by the fact that blowing the cloning facility means killing infants in their cloning chambers? I don't suppose our heroes have much choice in the matter, but it's still ugly.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Fyraltari]

Pretty sure the answer here is simply that the Emperor was neurotic and obsessive enough to expend an absurd amount of resources to trawl every blasted corner in Cloud City in order to find the hand. Ultimately, it's just sitting at the bottom of that column somewhere, a few hundred mouse droids could probably track it down in a day or so.

The movie kind of imply that this column leads into the gas Giant Below though. It's ambiguous either,I'll admit.

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There would have been women and alien imperials in Hand of Thrawn - it's just that pretty much everyone who shows up in the duology is high-ranked. Daala integrated the empire at gunpoint in Darksaber (the only good thing to happen in that travesty of a text). However, because the empire was shrinking at the time, and continued to shrink all the way through the YV War, no one was getting promoted. That means all the aliens and women were stuck in whatever low-level positions they had occupied for years. There's evidence of this in the duology - in that characters like Captain Nagol had been stuck at captain rank for over a decade.

Oh. I didn't know that. That makes sense.

In light of the fact that Thrawn arranged for C'Baoth to lose his Force powers and C'Baoth anticipated him doing so and countered it, I think the confrontation's just happened.

(They aren't in the same area for it, but if they were that the one of them who doesn't have the Force would be dead now, and you mentioned a while ago knowing that Thrawn would be killed by someone who is not C'Baoth.)

The whole Wayland battle only happens because Thrawn didn't give Covell an Ysalamir. Frankly that is the one glaringly dumb decision he takes in the whole book. He knows C'Baoth can control minds and with C'Baoth away the ysalamir is completely useless to him but he doesn't think to give it to the general who is going to spend a long time alone with the Dark Jedi?

To be fair, at this point of writing EU stuff, there was literally nothing about the Clone Wars or anything. Certainly not that the clonemasters in question were working with the Jedi. So, I can imagine that it could be postulated that the clonemasters weren't really knowledgeable about the Force, and that the Jedi, though they may have figured it out, weren't exactly too keen on sharing their secret.

Certainly, I can imagine the Jedi keeping the knowledge of the Ysalamir repressed. It was known that the Jedi avoided Myrkr, but the reason why was probably not excessively common knowledge. Keep in mind that those who knew, Karrde and Thrawn, were amongst the most knowledgeable people with the largest sources to draw from. Most that dwelled there probably did so due to the sensor baffling properties of the planet instead.

So I don't find it far out of the question that the clonemasters, knowing about the force warping, were still unable to actually figure out a solution, lacking the knowledge of this one specific resource that the people in the highest echelons of power had reason to keep hidden.

If I recall correctly, Pellaeon reminisces about fighting stark-raving mad clones early on. It would make sense that Zahn assumed the "Clone Wars" were fought against the Clones (that is what the name imply) and that their masters would be eviiiiiiil.

These would not be bothered by having a unruly army that would kill nyone in its path if that means more soldiers right now. After all why worry about civilians casualties when you can just make more civilians afterwards?

Also, if memory serves, the process only makes the clone madif it is too quick so for the Clonemasters to avoid that problem they would have had to do just what the Kaminoans did in the Prequels. Wait ten years to grow their army.

Am I the only one troubled by the fact that blowing the cloning facility means killing infants in their cloning chambers? I don't suppose our heroes have much choice in the matter, but it's still ugly.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Am I the only one troubled by the fact that Clone Troopers are a slave caste of soldier-children? Wether or not they are out of their pod doesn't make that much of a difference, in my humble opinion.

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The Moffs did oppose it initially, but after a few hours of the meeting capitulated to Pellaeon. I assume that he laid out his reasoning in detail and addressed all objections to the point that the Moffs all agreed that peace was the best solution. (Admittedly, I have the somewhat unfair benefit of re-reading that book at the moment)

I do agree that the governmental makeup of the Imperial Remnant was indeed presented as quite lopsided, but again, Pellaeon is only the military commander; what could he do about it that wouldn't be immediately proclaimed as a purely military takeover of the government? The Moffs certainly wouldn't want to give up their power, and they do control their own sector fleet. Pellaeon was the Supreme Commander, but when conflicting orders are given, that's a recipe for chaos, and it would likely be far more bloody than Pellaeon would tolerate.

Spoiler: From the Remnant's Wookieepedia page:

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<< "Join the Galactic Alliance? Have you gone mad? You can't believe that any of us would ever agree to this!"
"I don't need your agreement, Kurlen. When I say that I am advising the council, I am only following a formality. This is the way it will be, because this is the way it has to be. I am simply saving you the need to think it through for yourselves."
―Moff Kurlen Flennic and Supreme Commander Gilad Pellaeon, in 28 ABY.
Admiral Pellaeon held the rank of Supreme Commander of the Imperial Fleet, and by 28 ABY had become a Grand Admiral. He was the leader of the Remnant despite being technically subordinate to the organization's Council of Moffs. The Moffs appointed him Supreme Commander, and they had the authority to order the fleet into military action. However, several disastrous offensives against the New Republic that lost large swaths of Imperial territory prompted Pellaeon to tell the council in 17 ABY that he was finished with obeying their orders. The chastened Moffs accepted his declaration, but their consensus was yet required before Pellaeon could make any large-scale decisions. In 19 ABY, the Supreme Commander addressed each Moff as "Your Excellency," but following the Bastion Accords, he maintained a system of checks and balances that prevented any one Moff from creating disorder. By 28 ABY, Pellaeon was picking and choosing what information he shared with the Council, asserting to outsiders that the Remnant was not run by a committee. In that year, he explicitly told the Moff Council that he considered their consensus to be a mere formality. >>

Doesn't sound like much of a balance to me.

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As for the dictator part, again, Pellaeon is far from having absolute authority, even when he was leader of the Galactic Alliance. He had authority over the fleet, but even then a Moff with a con man could have pulled that from him for just long enough to matter.

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Look are we discussing his time as part of the Galactic Alliance or as part of the Empire?

[Peelee]

Spoiler: From the Remnant's Wookieepedia page:

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<< "Join the Galactic Alliance? Have you gone mad? You can't believe that any of us would ever agree to this!"
"I don't need your agreement, Kurlen. When I say that I am advising the council, I am only following a formality. This is the way it will be, because this is the way it has to be. I am simply saving you the need to think it through for yourselves."
―Moff Kurlen Flennic and Supreme Commander Gilad Pellaeon, in 28 ABY.
Admiral Pellaeon held the rank of Supreme Commander of the Imperial Fleet, and by 28 ABY had become a Grand Admiral. He was the leader of the Remnant despite being technically subordinate to the organization's Council of Moffs. The Moffs appointed him Supreme Commander, and they had the authority to order the fleet into military action. However, several disastrous offensives against the New Republic that lost large swaths of Imperial territory prompted Pellaeon to tell the council in 17 ABY that he was finished with obeying their orders. The chastened Moffs accepted his declaration, but their consensus was yet required before Pellaeon could make any large-scale decisions. In 19 ABY, the Supreme Commander addressed each Moff as "Your Excellency," but following the Bastion Accords, he maintained a system of checks and balances that prevented any one Moff from creating disorder. By 28 ABY, Pellaeon was picking and choosing what information he shared with the Council, asserting to outsiders that the Remnant was not run by a committee. In that year, he explicitly told the Moff Council that he considered their consensus to be a mere formality. >>

Doesn't sound like much of a balance to me.

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Look are we discussing his time as part of the Galactic Alliance or as part of the Empire?

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Ah. I was talking about his time with the Empire as of the Thrawn Duology, since I'm re-reading that and everything in it is fresh in my mind. And then skipping ahead to the Galactic Alliance, because I don't much remember a lot of details of the NJO stuff (and I'm not inclined to). You're right, it looks like once he was elevated to Grand Admiral, they basically gave him supreme authority, even if it was somewhat unstated. During the Hand of Thrawn books, he clearly did need the Moffs to agree with him to move forward, but later on he could more or less do as he pleased. You're also right in that nobody should really be given that much power, but Pellaeon did do fairly well with it, considering.

[Bavarian itP]

The whole Wayland battle only happens because Thrawn didn't give Covell an Ysalamir. Frankly that is the one glaringly dumb decision he takes in the whole book. He knows C'Baoth can control minds and with C'Baoth away the ysalamir is completely useless to him but he doesn't think to give it to the general who is going to spend a long time alone with the Dark Jedi?

Remember, C'Baoth is explicitely in command of Covell and his troops. C'Baoth has no reason at all to harm Covell, and Thrawn does not yet know that C'Baoth is insane enough to do it for the evulz.

[Peelee]

Remember, C'Baoth is explicitely in command of Covell and his troops. C'Baoth has no reason at all to harm Covell, and Thrawn does not yet know that C'Baoth is insane enough to do it for the evulz.

C'Baoth has plenty of reason to harm Covell, since Thrawn's orders could override C'Baoth's. Thrawn would not want C'Baoth to be able to have full and unfettered access to Mount Tantis, after all, lest C'Baoth do anything crazy like kill all the ysalamiri or something.

In fact, the way events unfolded is exactly why Thrawn should have outfitted Covell (and the garrison as a whole, frankly) with ysalamiri, and Thrawn should have realized it.

[Bavarian itP]

C'Baoth has plenty of reason to harm Covell, since Thrawn's orders could override C'Baoth's. Thrawn would not want C'Baoth to be able to have full and unfettered access to Mount Tantis, after all, lest C'Baoth do anything crazy like kill all the ysalamiri or something.

In fact, the way events unfolded is exactly why Thrawn should have outfitted Covell (and the garrison as a whole, frankly) with ysalamiri, and Thrawn should have realized it.

Hindsight is always 20/20.

And Mount Tantiss is equipped with Ysalamiri. And Thrawn deemed it necessary to maintain the illusion that C'Baoth is the true emperor, and Thrawn only an underling. Giving Covell an Ysalamiri would undermine that.

[Kish]

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Ah. I was talking about his time with the Empire as of the Thrawn Duology, since I'm re-reading that and everything in it is fresh in my mind. And then skipping ahead to the Galactic Alliance, because I don't much remember a lot of details of the NJO stuff (and I'm not inclined to). You're right, it looks like once he was elevated to Grand Admiral, they basically gave him supreme authority, even if it was somewhat unstated. During the Hand of Thrawn books, he clearly did need the Moffs to agree with him to move forward, but later on he could more or less do as he pleased. You're also right in that nobody should really be given that much power, but Pellaeon did do fairly well with it, considering.

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Given that the Empire is nowhere near being any form of democracy, it's actually better for the ordinary citizensubject on the street for the power to be concentrated in one pair of hands than a dozen.

That said, I think it's somewhat thematically unfortunate that the writers decided to retcon a classic Evil Empire into something morally ambiguous at all. As of the Heir to the Empire trilogy, Thrawn and C'Baoth were designed to be mustache-twirling evil overlords; if the trilogy alone didn't make it clear (which, in my view at least, it does), Zahn's commentary on the series while he was writing it does.

[Peelee]

Hindsight is always 20/20.

And Mount Tantiss is equipped with Ysalamiri. And Thrawn deemed it necessary to maintain the illusion that C'Baoth is the true emperor, and Thrawn only an underling. Giving Covell an Ysalamiri would undermine that.

C'Baoth had already completely dominated every mind on Thrawn's ship. This isn't hindsight, it's ignoring a telegraph that openly stated his intentions.

Given that the Empire is nowhere near being any form of democracy, it's actually better for the ordinary [s]citizen[/]subject on the street for the power to be concentrated in one pair of hands than a dozen.

That said, I think it's somewhat thematically unfortunate that the writers decided to retcon a classic Evil Empire into something morally ambiguous at all. As of the Heir to the Empire trilogy, Thrawn and C'Baoth were designed to be mustache-twirling evil overlords; if the trilogy alone didn't make it clear (which, in my view at least, it does), Zahn's commentary on the series while he was writing it does.[/SPOILER]

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True. I don't believe I've said anything all that favorable about Thrawn, as far as morality goes (and if I have, I've clearly been proven wrong). Haven't gotten the anniversary book with the commentary, so I don't know if Zahn says the same about Pellaeon.

[Fyraltari]

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Ah. I was talking about his time with the Empire as of the Thrawn Duology, since I'm re-reading that and everything in it is fresh in my mind. And then skipping ahead to the Galactic Alliance, because I don't much remember a lot of details of the NJO stuff (and I'm not inclined to). You're right, it looks like once he was elevated to Grand Admiral, they basically gave him supreme authority, even if it was somewhat unstated. During the Hand of Thrawn books, he clearly did need the Moffs to agree with him to move forward, but later on he could more or less do as he pleased. You're also right in that nobody should really be given that much power, but Pellaeon did do fairly well with it, considering.

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I think his war hero aura helped. But yeah it seems that the Remnant's constitution calls for the Moffs to be the one in charge. But frankly that isn't better, the only interests the Moffs represent are the Moffs' own. Pellaeon is undoubtedly a good man in the service of an evil regime, and he makes ten time a better leader than Palpatine (not really a high bar) but he isin service of an evil regime and as long as he is that should not be forgotten.

His empire my be more humane than Sidious' but the fact that he keeps calling it an Empire and keeps the whole apparatus and all of the symbols in place (as well as the fact that his reforms only make it more egalitarian, not more libertarian) make me think of that one Cairo, Nest of Spies line:
"Funny thing, we nazis always play the bad guys. This is 1955, Herr Bermard, can we have a second chance? ... Thanks.

Remember, C'Baoth is explicitely in command of Covell and his troops.

Yes, and C'Baoth is Emperor and Thrawn as a bridge to sell him.

C'Baoth has no reason at all to harm Covell, and Thrawn does not yet know that C'Baoth is insane enough to do it for the evulz.

Have you looked at C'Baoth? I wouldn't trust him with my spare change, much less a general.

[Daimbert]

I could buy that Thrawn knows generally how they think from artwork. I could buy him thinking 'something's wrong here, we need to investigate further' or ' they're not going to do something this straightforward, they're going to do something else' and seeking information to confirm it.

I cannot buy 'they're going to attack this specific shipyard at this point in time and I am so confident of this based on this artwork from years before this war even started that I explicitly forbid my subordinates from doing any investigating to confirm my hunch.' There's at least one other CGT in the galaxy, and Coruscant is supplied for months as per Fey'lya. Bel Ibliss believes they don't need the CGT anyway, so he could well try to get Thrawn to commit forces defending CGTs and attack, say, Ukio instead. But Thrawn guesses the exact correct plan without any investigating.

Yes, but that all comes down to his knowing the psychology of the two men running the action: Ackbar and Bel Iblis, which is what he learned from the art. Plus knowing what their needs and desires were so as to limit the possible options.

What we have there is Ackbar in charge with Bel Iblis under him. Both are brilliant and both have specific styles, but it's the interaction between them that both opens up and limits the options.

Bel Iblis is in general in favour of bold and dramatic actions. The minimum for him would be to try to take the array at the more heavily defended installation because "they'd never expect it". But Ackbar wouldn't go for such a dramatic option. That's also why they won't attack somewhere else: Bel iblis would try for that move, but in general, unless it had a huge strategic payoff, Ackbar wouldn't. He wants to get the thing they need in the safest and most expedient way possible.

The problem with just not going after a CGT -- and I even think it was mentioned in the book, but it's been a long time since I've read it, and it's certainly implied by the X-wing books -- is that it isn't just about how long Coruscant can hold out under the permanent siege. The galaxy is not yet pacified, Thrawn is rampaging, and bottling up the Republic leaders on Coruscant at least symbolically cuts them off the galaxy and hurts their diplomacy. They look weak and ineffectual, and that can prompt others to throw in with Thrawn or striking out on their own. So they need to deal with it as soon as they can, and doing so by stealing a CGT from Thrawn is a prime way to solve their problem while giving Thrawn a bloody nose. That's also why, even if they could get it in time, they won't go after the third CGT ... especially since that one is likely held by an at least neutral party who will get very upset if they simply take it from them by force which will hurt their diplomacy as well.

Now, if Drayson was still in command, then the course would be clear: attack the more weakly defended installation and try to hide that that was your target, or that you were going to make an attack. He'd follow standard military doctrine, and that's what you'd do if you needed the CGT. But Ackbar is in charge, and he's not afraid to go against standard doctrine if he thinks it will work (it didn't take much persuading for him to engage the Star Destroyers and avoid the Death Star laser). There is also a desire for both of them to outsmart Thrawn, and misleading him into thinking that they were going for the safer option while taking it from the tougher option that was made easier because of the deception will be appealing.

So the psychological reasoning, I think, is this: Bel Iblis will want to attack the more heavily defended location, Ackbar will add the deception line to make it less risky, and thus when Thrawn sees them looking like they are going to attack the less defended target he knows that's what they're trying. And isn't it actually mentioned that he doesn't want them to investigate the other option because the increased surveillance might tip them off that Thrawn isn't being deceived? He WANTS them to fall into the trap, and so wants to make sure that they don't have any idea that he might have seen through the deception, which is a common military move.

So, for the most part, as was probably intended, Thrawn is essentially a Sherlock Holmes type: his conclusions looks miraculous, but when explained are built out of simple observations that lead to only one conclusion.

[Peelee]

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I think his war hero aura helped. But yeah it seems that the Remnant's constitution calls for the Moffs to be the one in charge. But frankly that isn't better, the only interests the Moffs represent are the Moffs' own. Pellaeon is undoubtedly a good man in the service of an evil regime, and he makes ten time a better leader than Palpatine (not really a high bar) but he is in service of an evil regime and as long as he is that should not be forgotten.

That's a fair point.

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His empire my be more humane than Sidious' but the fact that he keeps calling it an Empire

This may be largely semantic, but calling it an Empire for so long while not really having an Emperor seems a bit silly.

[Kish]

So, for the most part, as was probably intended, Thrawn is essentially a Sherlock Holmes type: his conclusions looks miraculous, but when explained are built out of simple observations that lead to only one conclusion.

This is an ironic comparison. If you look at Sherlock Holmes stories from the standpoint of "I'm analyzing whether this is plausible" rather than "I'm going along with the narrative in which he's the world's greatest detective"--which is, of course, entirely the wrong way to approach the books if you want to enjoy them as novels--it becomes apparent that most of the time, Sherlock makes shallow, superficial, and/or prejudiced assumptions, succeeding because the author has his back on them.

(In at least one case, a very unfortunate assumption: "A Jew would understand money better than this man's claiming to, so he's lying.")

[DataNinja]

If I recall correctly, Pellaeon reminisces about fighting stark-raving mad clones early on. It would make sense that Zahn assumed the "Clone Wars" were fought against the Clones (that is what the name imply) and that their masters would be eviiiiiiil.

I believe you are correct in that regard. I mean, it makes more sense, naming convention-wise.

Also, if memory serves, the process only makes the clone madif it is too quick so for the Clonemasters to avoid that problem they would have had to do just what the Kaminoans did in the Prequels. Wait ten years to grow their army.

Kaminoans just did it the "best", but I recall that it was mentioned in this series that Spaartii cylinders normally made clones in a year. And, when you've got top-tier genetics and mentality and all, sacrificing "best" for "really, really good... but a lot of them" isn't such a bad thing. Since they'll still probably be as good or better than what your other troops are.

(As mentioned, Spaarti cylinders were later seen in the Republic Commando novels, where the clones they produced were workable, but not quite up to the same standards as Kamino clones. But, granted, the 10-year-cloning idea certainly wasn't around when these were written.)

[pendell]

This is an ironic comparison. If you look at Sherlock Holmes stories from the standpoint of "I'm analyzing whether this is plausible" rather than "I'm going along with the narrative in which he's the world's greatest detective"--which is, of course, entirely the wrong way to approach the books if you want to enjoy them as novels--it becomes apparent that most of the time, Sherlock makes shallow, superficial, and/or prejudiced assumptions, succeeding because the author has his back on them.

(In at least one case, a very unfortunate assumption: "A Jew would understand money better than this man's claiming to, so he's lying.")

Quite; Terry Pratchett did a masterful takedown of Sherlock Holmes in ... which book was it? .. Jingo, I think. He pointed out that clues were very slippery thing and were usually a great deal more ambiguous than a logical sherlock holmesian approach would believe. In the story, the clues available had been deliberately planted to be misleading.

ETA: No I was thinking of Feet of Clay

“Samuel Vimes dreamed about Clues. He had a jaundiced view of Clues. He instinctively distrusted them. They got in the way. And he distrusted the kind of person who’d take one look at another man and say in a lordly voice to his companion, “Ah, my dear sir, I can tell you nothing except that he is a left-handed stonemason who has spent some years in the merchant navy and has recently fallen on hard times,” and then unroll a lot of supercilious commentary about calluses and stance and the state of a man’s boots, when exactly the same comments could apply to a man who was wearing his old clothes because he’d been doing a spot of home bricklaying for a new barbecue pit, and had been tattooed once when he was drunk and seventeen* and in fact got seasick on a wet pavement. What arrogance! What an insult to the rich and chaotic variety of the human experience!”

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[hamishspence]

ETA: No I was thinking of Feet of Clay

Vimes does parody the Holmesian spiel in Jingo though:


Vimes turned the clove over and over under the magnifying glass.
"I see tooth marks," he said.
"Yes sir," said Littlebottom, who represented in her entirety the Watch's forensic department. "Looks like someone was chewing it like a toothpick."
Vimes sat back.
"I would say," he said, "that this was last touched by a swarthy man of about my height. He had several gold teeth. And a beard. And a slight cast in one eye. Scarred. He was carrying a large weapon. Curved, I'd say. And you'd have to call what he was wearing a turban because it wasn't moving fast enough to be a badger."
Littlebottom looked astonished.
"Detectoring is like gambling," said Vimes, putting down the clove. "The secret is to know the winner in advance. Thank you, Corporal. Write down that description and make sure everyone gets a copy, please. He goes by the name of 71–hour Ahmed, heaven knows why. And then go and get some rest."

[Bavarian itP]

Yes, and C'Baoth is Emperor and Thrawn as a bridge to sell him.


Have you looked at C'Baoth? I wouldn't trust him with my spare change, much less a general.

It's not about trust in this case, Thrawn clearly does not trust C'Baoth. But he thinks C could still be useful (for some reason). So he has to handle him with tact. Putting him in an ysalamiri bubble 24/7 is not tactful. If he does this, he could just shoot C'Baoth, because C is not going to cooperate anymore anyway.

[Daimbert]

This is an ironic comparison. If you look at Sherlock Holmes stories from the standpoint of "I'm analyzing whether this is plausible" rather than "I'm going along with the narrative in which he's the world's greatest detective"--which is, of course, entirely the wrong way to approach the books if you want to enjoy them as novels--it becomes apparent that most of the time, Sherlock makes shallow, superficial, and/or prejudiced assumptions, succeeding because the author has his back on them.

Well, sure, a character can only be as smart as their author, and there aren't that many utter genius authors writing utter genius characters. So the question isn't really so much "Are there other potential explanations?" but, rather, given the context, does the reasoning hold up? To take on the Pratchett, is that situation possible? Perhaps, and Holmes' at least stylistic arrogance that it could only be that is probably a bit more than can be justified. But in the context, that's not the most likely or most reasonable conclusion.

For most of the things Thrawn does, the reasoning holds up. He learns enough of the psychology to be able to predict how they are going to react to a stimulus, and then plans for that.

[Sapphire Guard]

In light of the fact that Thrawn arranged for C'Baoth to lose his Force powers and C'Baoth anticipated him doing so and countered it, I think the confrontation's just happened.

(They aren't in the same area for it, but if they were that the one of them who doesn't have the Force would be dead now, and you mentioned a while ago knowing that Thrawn would be killed by someone who is not C'Baoth.)

They've been trading threats (Well, C'Baoth has been threatening, Thrawn has been making ominous comments to Pellaeon after he leaves.) since book 1, this is a pretty tame conclusion to that buildup, assuming there's nothing more to it, which might not be true at this point.

To be fair, at this point of writing EU stuff, there was literally nothing about the Clone Wars or anything. Certainly not that the clonemasters in question were working with the Jedi. So, I can imagine that it could be postulated that the clonemasters weren't really knowledgeable about the Force, and that the Jedi, though they may have figured it out, weren't exactly too keen on sharing their secret.

This doesn't require prequel knowledge. Even if it was Clones v Jedi, both sides would intensely study their opponents' abilities.

Take these two archival pools and the research equivalent of an Ensign Mihel, some very bright person handpicked by Thrawn for being quickminded and inventive. Give that person the task of solving the problem of finding a way to reproduce clones in a hurry, and you get the Last Command.

This only works if only one person in the galaxy knows how to do research. Either everyone knows, or nobody knows. The New Republic has been scouring their archives too and not finding this.

Much of Thrawn's genius isn't about his own brilliance; it's his ability to find talented people, to put them to work and to motivate them. A subplot of this books is his tireless mentoring of Captain Pelleaon

A subplot of this book is Pellaeon gradually learning to suppress his own opinions because Thrawn contradicts them all. In his POVs, he's having thoughts like 'why do I even bother second guessing him?' He's only arguing the Bilbringi case because it looks like an obvious disaster.

C'Baoth likely wouldn't allow a ysalamir on his transport.

So, for the most part, as was probably intended, Thrawn is essentially a Sherlock Holmes type: his conclusions looks miraculous, but when explained are built out of simple observations that lead to only one conclusion.

Even Holmes needs data to draw conclusions. Thrawn doesn't have any data here, and is actively refusing to gather any. He doesn't know that Ackbar and Ibliss are running the operation alone. He doesn't know if Fey'lya has convinced them that they don't need the CGT immediately. If he has an insight into Ibliss' mind, then he has to bear in mind that Ibliss might realise the asteroids are cleared and that they don't need a CGT at all. He doesn't know how the Council might order them to hit somewhere else.

CH27: Luke and Luuke are duelling, with Mara watching and C'Baoth commentating. The Emperor has actually taught her to shield her mind, but it's tricky against someone so powerful. C'Baoth mentally jabs her, but she's able to keep her thoughts hidden. C'Baoth is amused, insofar as he can reliably assume 'wants to kill me' is on her to do list. She listens to his monologue and tries to find her lost blaster.

Luke tries to disarm Luuke, and C'Baoth interferes because he wants a fight to the death. Luke tries to destroy the other saber, but C'Baoth blocks it with the blaster Mara is looking for.

Karrde and Leia come in, and C'Baoth announces them. Luke warns them away, and Han shoots. C'Baoth blocks it with Mara's blaster, which explodes. C'Baoth does some kind of scream which staggers them all, including the vornskyrs. Solo gets lightningd once before Leia can block it, and then they have a catwalk thrown at them, which Leia mostly diverts but is clipped by. Luke attacks Luuke, who is actually forced back this time, and flips up to a guard post, using Luke's previous trick. Ignoring Luuke, Luke offers to stay with C'Baoth if he lets the others go.

Downstairs, the Imperials are trying to break through the doors. C3PO comes in on comms to ask if Noghri support is needed, and Lando says they won't arrive on time, and redirects them to the throne room. Karrde cuts in and fills them in on events in the throne room, and asks about the dead ysalamiri. C3PO checks in and Lando tells them to leave with the Noghri. He feels the only choice is to bring down the building.

Upstairs, Mara is stunned that Luke is willing to save her life, given her 'killing Luke' policy. She looks down at Karrde and notices Solo creeping towards his fallen blaster. Mara talks to try and get C'Baoth's attention, but he notices and the blaster flies away. Luuke decides he's roosted long enough and attacks from the guard tower. The blaster flies away a few feet every time Solo goes for it.

Luke jumps up onto the C'Baoth's own platform, followed by Luuke, who charges him, forcing Luke to retreat towards a wall. Fed up with all these distractions, C'Baoth disarms everyone else in the room and
turns to watch the lightsabre duel, but Mara pulls Leia's sabre towards herself and moves towards Luuke. Luke is forced back until he ducks a sabre that hits a wallscreen, which explodes in Luuke's face. He turns around in time to face Mara, and with the Emperor cheering her on, she cuts down Luuke, presumably hoping that will shut him up.

Well. A good scene, very in character. Mara has worked out her issues in a satisfying and unexpected way. C'Baoth's power and instability really come together well. In theory C'Baoth could pull back a curtain and introduce Luuuke, Luuuuke, and Luuuuuke, depending on how far ahead he thought. The callbacks to Endor come thick and fast, but in a non invasive way. It's not clear yet if that will affect C'Baoth much. He was off balance for a long time there, but was planning on Luuke death anyway, so presumably it won't hurt him, unless there's a downside to Clone mindlinking. We'll see.

[Daimbert]

Even Holmes needs data to draw conclusions. Thrawn doesn't have any data here, and is actively refusing to gather any. He doesn't know that Ackbar and Ibliss are running the operation alone. He doesn't know if Fey'lya has convinced them that they don't need the CGT immediately. If he has an insight into Ibliss' mind, then he has to bear in mind that Ibliss might realise the asteroids are cleared and that they don't need a CGT at all. He doesn't know how the Council might order them to hit somewhere else.

You're ignoring the data that he obviously has to try to insist that he has no data. By your own summary, he is studying Ackbar and Bel Iblis. He knows that Ackbar has been cleared and has returned to active duty. He knows that Bel Iblis has reconciled with the New Republic because of the tactical change in the battle over Coruscant. He knows that Bel Iblis will not be placed over Ackbar in the chain of command. So, then, he knows that Ackbar is the one with the final say and Bel Iblis is a very competent advisor. From the art, he knows that Bel Iblis likes bold and dramatic moves. From the art, he also knows that Ackbar isn't opposed to unconventional thinking but only when he thinks it will pay off. Given that, it's perfectly reasonable to decide that the Tangrene preparations are a deception, and as I said he doesn't want to investigate that too closely for fear of tipping them off that he's seen through their deception.

As I also pointed out -- and I think the book itself made clear -- there is more to trying to open up Coruscant than simply how long it will hold out. It is highly unlikely that the Council will be convinced to mount a major military operation against any other target than to get a CGT, especially since they don't know what Thrawn himself is planning. Again, neither Ackbar militarily nor the Council politically can consider any other target sufficiently important to mount a major military operation against as long as Coruscant is locked down and they aren't sure of Thrawn's next move, in case they make their move and it leaves them vulnerable to Thrawn's next move. And this is, of course, all things that
Thrawn ought to know about the politics of the galaxy.

So, are other options possible? Sure. But given what Thrawn knows, none of them are likely.

[pendell]

Well. A good scene, very in character. Mara has worked out her issues in a satisfying and unexpected way.

Mara definitely shut up the voice in her head. Evidently killing Luuke Skywalker is enough to satisfy the Last Command, which she has now fulfilled.

One thing I find irritating is that Zahn's Luke is almost too noble for his own good. Offering to stay behind if C'baoth lets all the others go? Still trying to redeem C'baoth even when C'baoth is trying very, very hard to kill him?

If anything, Mara & Luke make a good team in the Zahn books precisely because Mara has just enough dark 'n gritty edge to balance out Luke.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Keltest]

Mara definitely shut up the voice in her head. Evidently killing Luuke Skywalker is enough to satisfy the Last Command, which she has now fulfilled.

One thing I find irritating is that Zahn's Luke is almost too noble for his own good. Offering to stay behind if C'baoth lets all the others go? Still trying to redeem C'baoth even when C'baoth is trying very, very hard to kill him?

If anything, Mara & Luke make a good team in the Zahn books precisely because Mara has just enough dark 'n gritty edge to balance out Luke.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Luke has a bit of a blind spot when it comes to dark side users. Im not familiar enough with the Legends canon to know if this ever actually bites him or not, but I do think its consistent with his characterization from the OT.

[Mechalich]

Luke has a bit of a blind spot when it comes to dark side users. Im not familiar enough with the Legends canon to know if this ever actually bites him or not, but I do think its consistent with his characterization from the OT.

Spoiler

Show

It bites him a lot. Luke is super-forgiving regarding people, especially people studying under him, flirting with the dark side and is nowhere near as proactive as he should be. I mean, he managed to lose Han's son to the dark side in both versions of canon. Students Luke lost to the dark side in Legends canon who went on to threaten the galaxy include, but are not limited too: Kyp Durron, Dolph, Desann, Alema Rar, and Jacen Solo. Jacen's not entirely his fault - Vergere and Jacen's own absurd arrogance contributed a lot (I swear, Kylo Ren is such a Jacen Solo clone that it's embarrassing...).

Admittedly Luke was trying to rebuild the order from nothing, which made him hard for him to be exclusive about who he trained and there were various issues outside of his control - the spirit of Exar Kun, the invasion of the Yuuzhan Vong, the authorial influence of Troy Denning - that contributed to his failure rate, as did the simple storytelling demand for dark jedi with no other reasonable source than Luke's rejects. Still, it was a really messy run. During the Hand of Thrawn duology Mara explicitly calls Luke out on it - which works as Zahn implicitly smacking Kevin J. Anderson and a couple of other authors upside the head.

[Blackhawk748]

Luke has a bit of a blind spot when it comes to dark side users. Im not familiar enough with the Legends canon to know if this ever actually bites him or not, but I do think its consistent with his characterization from the OT.

Spoiler

Show

Ya, it hits him hard. On top of what was already said Luke himself falls temporarily to the dark side and he gets super paranoid about it happening again after that and that also feeds into the whole Jacen Solo thing. He does pull out of it, but it takes him falling as mentioned above as well as a lot of people dying, including his wife.

[Fyraltari]

This may be largely semantic, but calling it an Empire for so long while not really having an Emperor seems a bit silly.

Well "empire" is a weird term in and of itself.
The first thing we called an empire called itself the simply Rome (res publica means public matter) and pretended that the political landscape hadn't changed, with its leader being called first citizens ("princes") or just cumulating all of the highest offices for life, then it more or less accepted it was a monarchy (after the "military anarchy" period) but head of states called itself "Caesar" and "Augustus".
Then other things called themselves empire to claim to be Rome in another form (the Byzantine Empire makes a good case, the Holy Roman Empire had a case when it controlled Rome, Tsarist Russia is really stretching it) and their leaders didn't really call themselves emperor (Charlemagne preferred "king of the Franks" since that was where his power stemmed from, The Byzantine Emperor was called king ("basileus") and Czar means Cesar (so is it actually the same as "emperor" or not?) and so does "Kaiser"). Later on It was apparently decided that emperor = king² and so europeans started slapping the words on all kind of places like Alexandre the Great, the Persian King of Kings, the Chinese and Japanese rulers, etc.
Then, Queen Victoria threw a tantrum when her daughter married the Austrian Emperor because she didn't want to be one rank under her so she decided to be Empress of India. Not to be outdone by la perfide Albion, the French started calling their occupied land a colonial empire as well (despite France having an elected President not a monarch)
And then we pretty much started to call any nation with a significant amount of geopolitical power (like the two superpowers of the Cold War) an empire as well.

So really that word doesn't mean much.

So, for the most part, as was probably intended, Thrawn is essentially a Sherlock Holmes type: his conclusions looks miraculous, but when explained are built out of simple observations that lead to only one conclusion.

Yup, which is why everyone gives Pellaeon a mustache he doesn't have in the book.

This is an ironic comparison. If you look at Sherlock Holmes stories from the standpoint of "I'm analyzing whether this is plausible" rather than "I'm going along with the narrative in which he's the world's greatest detective"--which is, of course, entirely the wrong way to approach the books if you want to enjoy them as novels--it becomes apparent that most of the time, Sherlock makes shallow, superficial, and/or prejudiced assumptions, succeeding because the author has his back on them.

(In at least one case, a very unfortunate assumption: "A Jew would understand money better than this man's claiming to, so he's lying.")

That reminds me of "that child is evil therefore his father is." and "I know you don't want to invest in the silver mines because I can tell by the state of your clothes that you just played billiard and you often play with Sir What'shisface who told me he did not convince you to invest"

Truly, the greatest mind to ever grace litterature.

[Blackhawk748]

Yup, which is why everyone gives Pellaeon a mustache he doesn't have in the book.

Lets be honest here, he looks much better with the stache.

[Fyraltari]

Lets be honest here, he looks much better with the stache.

Definitely and so does Watson.

[Sapphire Guard]

Evidently killing Luuke Skywalker is enough to satisfy the Last Command, which she has now fulfilled.

Oh, nice touch. I didn't realise what that meant.

@Daimbert: The third CGT is also in Imperial Space, why is that one an invalid target? It can't be too well protected, as Bilbringi is a fortress.

CH28:

Chimaera bridge scene, Thrawn notes the Rebels arriving and gives final orders. Pellaeon is amazed that he was right 'against overwhelming evidence to the contrary' and suggests that they let someone escape to bring tales of their failure. Thrawn suggests Ackbar, in order to completely destroy his reputation.

Wedge is engaged, and aware that this looks bad. Akbar is holding formation so far, but it's only a matter of time. They need to hit something damaging fast to relieve some of the pressure, like the shipyards, but this is easier said than done, as there are Golan II battlestations on guard. Then he gets a diplomatic code from Aves re the position of the smugglers in the shipyard.

If they can take out a battlestation, this completely changes the battlefield, as the Imperials have to split their fleet to defend the exposed shipyards. With New Republic support on their escape, things start looking a lot better for the smugglers too.

On Wayland, Luke is feeling better with his clone dead. C'Baoth is temporarily shocked into immobility, so they pick themselves up. Mara mentions that she might kill C'Baoth on the way out, which unfortunately catches his attention. He promises her a slow death and starts throwing gravel at them, burying them in unstoppable waves. He promises Mara death after he clones a new apprentice, which is unfortunate as she thoughtlessly has no u in her name.

Lando and Chewbacca are finished setting charges, but the Imperials begin to break through. They need a way out fast, so Landoi extends the bridge and shoots out the end, so it falls downward to the rest of the room. They escape through that level's door as the room explodes behind them.

He checks in with Han, who updates him on the throne room. The entrance is blocked, and the mountain is rigged to explode soon, which at least means C'Baoth isn't getting out. Han asks Cherwbacca to have 'someone besides Winter' take care of the twins. They've no choice but to leave, but Lando's hoping they can cut into the mountain from the ship.

In the throne room, Luke is in pain, but musters the energy to make one last attempt to save C'Baoth. C'Baoth doesn't know how to react, but decides he's honestly amused to see this tried again. Mara interrupts, having freed herself from a knee deep pile of stones by cutting a hole in the floor.

She charges him with the lightsabre, and Force Lightning and stones force her back, making Mara shut her eyes. Leia navigates for her, and C'Baoth seems to be finally getting tired. Luke can't call his lightsabres, so he releases the vornskyrs.

C'Baoth fries one, but the other keeps coming, but splitting his attention enough that Mara can make a final leap and cut him down. He explodes like the Emperor did, and Mara takes some serious burns.

Luke eventually gets up, and C'Baoth's explosion has blasted enough of a hole in the side of the mountain that they can cut their way out.

At Bilbringi, a Golan II is in serious trouble, and the shipyard is exposed. Thrawn tells him to calm down.

A priority message comes in from Wayland, about an attack by natives, Rebels, and Noghri-

Rukh knocks him down, and by the time he hits the emergency alert, he sees Thrawn in his chair with a knife in his chest. Thrawn compliments the artistry and dies.

Pellaeon assesses the situation.

Thrawn could still have pulled an Imperial Victory out of it. But he, Pellaeon, was not Thrawn.

He signals the retreat.

Well, even though I knew it was coming, I wasn't expecting this here, I assumed Rukh would wait for a more private setting than the middle of the Bridge. I was kind of looking forward to seeing how Thrawn handled being on the back foot for once, or how Pellaeon would take up the mantle.

C'Baoth fight is excellent, he's able to take all of them at once believably and interestingly. Feel a bit bad about the vornskyrs.

Last chapter and final thoughts tomorrow.

[Mechalich]

@Daimbert: The third CGT is also in Imperial Space, why is that one an invalid target? It can't be too well protected, as Bilbringi is a fortress.

I don't believe the text ever states where the third one is located. Potentially it's much further behind enemy lines. For example, it could be at Bastion/Sartinaynian, which is extremely far out in the outer rim. Worse, it could have been in the Deep Core (ex, at Prakith), where navigational hazards made assembling a large assault fleet difficult and would have involved bringing Imperial forces not directly loyal to Thrawn into the conflict. It's also worth noting that there's a good reason to choose Bilbringi: it's Thrawn's primary shipyard (since the New Republic controls most of the Core World ones by this point) making it an ideal target for a major assault above and beyond the need to steal a CGT. Tangrene, by contrast, is an Ubiqtorate Base - an Imperial Intelligence asset, not a strategic military asset.

[Blackhawk748]

Rukh knocks him down, and by the time he hits the emergency alert, he sees Thrawn in his chair with a knife in his chest. Thrawn compliments the artistry and dies.

"But ... it was so artistically done."

Love his final words

[McStabbington]

C'Baoth has plenty of reason to harm Covell, since Thrawn's orders could override C'Baoth's. Thrawn would not want C'Baoth to be able to have full and unfettered access to Mount Tantis, after all, lest C'Baoth do anything crazy like kill all the ysalamiri or something.

In fact, the way events unfolded is exactly why Thrawn should have outfitted Covell (and the garrison as a whole, frankly) with ysalamiri, and Thrawn should have realized it.

And yet, the only way to protect Covell would have been to stick a ysalamiri on the ship. And once there is such a ysalamiri on the ship, C'Boath isn't getting on.

Losing Covell is a loss, but at this point, if Thrawn could take out C'Boath in the process, one general is an acceptable loss. And given that Thrawn knows how many ysalamiri he has at Mount Tantiss, and C'Boath does not? C'Boath's insistence that he take personal charge of the project is what's known in the business as "Oh no, anything but the briar patch, Joruus!"

I have very little doubt that Covell had standing orders to kill C'Boath once he reached the base. If C'Boath kills him before he gets there? Eh, so what? C'Boath is still neatly boxed in a force-free bubble, and can be disposed of at Thrawn's leisure. If he subverts Covell? Again, from everything Thrawn knows about the Force, eh, so what? Once Covell hits the ysalamiri bubble, he regains control, at which point he carries out Thrawn's orders. The only possible escape hatch was, as it turned out, exactly what C'Boath managed to do: subvert Covell through the Force in a way that simultaneously kept him alive long enough to order detonators planted, and would gradually kill him. But nothing about C'Boath's erratic nature or displays of power had, to that point, indicated that level of subversion through the Force was even possible. Heck, it's implied that even the Emperor didn't know it was possible.

The Thrawn trilogy, I think, still stands up as an example of heroes and villains both playing at a high level of competence, with the heroes not being as good, but being able to target low-probability, but highly-effective, countermeasures. Could Thrawn have changed the access codes so that Lando's access codes for the mole miners wouldn't work? Sure, but blaming Thrawn for the oversight depends on him specifically thinking of a counter for one of maybe five guys in the entire galaxy being present when his attack on the Sluis Van spaceyards go off, to say nothing of us all now having practical experience with passwords that we really didn't in the early 1990's.

Same principle applies here. Would it have been theoretically better to send Covell separately from C'Boath, or find some super-savvy way of protecting him? Yeah, I suppose. But operationally, is Covell actually worth that much effort on Thrawn's part, especially if by using Covell to lure C'Boath in, Thrawn can, at minimum, neatly box C'Boath into a prison that he can't escape from? If I were in Thrawn's position, I'd take that trade a thousand times out of a thousand. I can train up another highly competent ground commander a heck of a lot faster than I can find another trap for a Jedi Master.