Reading Heir to the Empire

[Mechalich]

It may be worth noting that in X-Wing: Rogue Squadron, written some years later, Stackpole actually ran a scenario where an un-escorted Interdictor pulled Rogue Squadron out of hyperspace by accident while it was trying to seize a smuggler, and it didn't go so well for the Interdictor. So a retroactive justification was provided for always having Interdictor cruisers heavily escorted.

As for Thrawn going himself in the Chimaera, he may actually have done so in order to maintain operational secrecy. Capturing Luke Skywalker - who many in the Empire consider the man who murdered their beloved Emperor - and then just giving him away would not have gone over well with the rank and file. This actually supports his justification to sub-contract the search - Thrawn would actually rather random bounty hunters and smugglers find Luke than some low ranking frigate captain. The former are pretty much guaranteed to turn Luke over to someone (even if the New Republic makes a better offer in the end) while the later could very well stand Luke up against a bulkhead and have him shot in a moment of vengeful exuberance. That would lose Thrawn C'baoth real quick.

[Cikomyr]

You are wasting your time in explanations.

He has decided that it doesnt make sense, and any amount of explaning won't satisfy him.

[Lethologica]

You are wasting your time in explanations.

He has decided that it doesnt make sense, and any amount of explaning won't satisfy him.

I hear needlessly antagonizing the OP of a Let's Read is a great way to keep the thread going.

[Cikomyr]

I hear needlessly antagonizing the OP of a Let's Read is a great way to keep the thread going.

Indeed. Which is why just ignoring the criticism and focus on the plot at hand will be better for this thread.

Hell, the people trying to explain/rationalize some criticism of the book have already been accused of "ganging up" on the OP in the first pages. He made clear he has his opinion; wont change them. So debating them just increases hostility of debate.

I thought its way more enjoyable to adopt Rick's philosophy in these cases: Nothing Matters. Lets watch TV.

In that case, the OP can yield whatever criticism of the plot he wants, I will let him and just keep discussing the good parts he contributes to the discussion and not bring up the parts that i disagree with. Because discussing my disagreements with him wont yield anything beyond frustration on both our parts.

[Lethologica]

Indeed. Which is why just ignoring the criticism and focus on the plot at hand will be better for this thread.

Hell, the people trying to explain/rationalize some criticism of the book have already been accused of "ganging up" on the OP in the first pages. He made clear he has his opinion; wont change them. So debating them just increases hostility of debate.

I thought its way more enjoyable to adopt Rick's philosophy in these cases: Nothing Matters. Lets watch TV.

In that case, the OP can yield whatever criticism of the plot he wants, I will let him and just keep discussing the good parts he contributes to the discussion and not bring up the parts that i disagree with. Because discussing my disagreements with him wont yield anything beyond frustration on both our parts.

Nice pivot.

[Cikomyr]

Nice pivot.

Nop. Thats what I have been saying, you just decided to read me saying that the OP wont change his mind as a criticism. I see it as a constatation, void of any judgement. After all, i think most people are unwilling to change their mind at all - and i include myself - in discussions over the Internet.

All in all, accepting that fact is just better. I aint saying that the OP is close minded. Just that he is unwilling to change his opinion over a book. Seriously, in the Great Order of Things, its not that big of a deal ;)

I will be fair about one point tho. When i first came at the realization, I was thinking about the OP the way you inferred. But after a few days, I just realize that not trying to change his mind and simply enjoy his commentary felt much more liberating, and my sense of antagonism disappeared.

Thanks to Rick

[Nerd-o-rama]

Why don't we all get back to reading SG's interpretations of the book instead of arguing about them. It's just a paperback space fantasy novel, guys, no matter how much we enjoyed it.

[Cikomyr]

Why don't we all get back to reading SG's interpretations of the book instead of arguing about them. It's just a paperback space fantasy novel, guys, no matter how much we enjoyed it.

My points exactly. Thanks ^_^

[Peelee]

constatation

Today I learned a new word! Also, is it more prevalent up where people also speak French? I've never heard of it before.

[Sapphire Guard]

I believe I was explicit that the entire idea of this Let's Read was to see if my opinions would change. But whatever. I'm not frustrated, if I wasn't interested in people's opinions I wouldn't have bothered making a thread. Especially as many of you are very well versed in the lore, it's been very interesting to read various bits of background and alternate interpretation, I mean, I even got back some optimism about Episode 8 from this.

the people trying to explain/rationalize some criticism of the book have already been accused of "ganging up" on the OP in the first pages

If this was me, I'd like a quote, please. I did not mean to make any such accusations.

An unescorted Interdictor wasn't the issue, so much as escorting it with the flagship of your fleet making it difficult to believe that it could pass for a coincidental traffic stop, especially as the ship hails Luke using its real name. Half the issue would be gone if, say, the Death's Head was the escort instead.

I think the Freighter and interdictor with look bit is intended mainly as a double-blind against C'Baoth, since it presents the deception that Luke wasn't the target. That way, Thrawn wouldn't be revealed as having acted against CB.

True, but that deception fails the instant C'Baoth hears the name Chimaera. He knows it's Thrawn's flagship. He knows Luke was moving from the mining complex to Jomark. So Thrawn's personal ship being on that route with an Interdictor in tow is highly unlikely to be anything other than treachery.

It also seems kind of unlikely that given how stretched the fleet is stated to be, they can spare the fleet flagship but no other ships.

Anyway, it's true that I've been talking about this too long.

CH23:

Luke notes an ISD in orbit and Karrde's fighter in pursuit, and that this is somewhat suboptimal. He's not familiar with the fighter model he's flying, and unfortunately, his pursuer appears to know what they're doing. He assumes it's Mara Jade -force sense, or just competence?

He has no choice but to stay low to keep the Imperials or Mara from tracking him, but she gets so close that he has to try a risky manoever or crash. He crashes anyway.

The three shuttles land in parade formation, and Karrde makes another of those assumptions the text throws in specifically to be proven wrong in thinking Thrawn is in the centre one. He's not, of course. After pleasantries, Thrawn asks about the fighter chase, having noted the crashes that Karrde has not. Thrawn elects to send out stormtroopers to the rescue rather than allow Karrde to deal with it.

Lando and Han are watching all this from a distance, wonder what's going on as the shuttle leaves. Han recognises Rukh's species, and is not pleased. They wonder if the stormtroopers are going to settle in permanently. They also comment on the blue one and learn he's a Grand Admiral, concluding that this must be the Republic's new leadership. Records in Coruscant should tell them more, if they can get back.

Luke wakes up in his crashed fighter, and gets R2 out, and discovers the second fighter crashed nearby. He decides to rescue her. One wonders if he would do this if someone else had been flying the fighter. She's fine, and immediately hold him at gunpoint.

They have some nice gunpointy banter, and then have to hide from Thrawn's 'rescue' party. Luke wonders if surrendering to stormtroopers might be a better option than being held at gunpoint by Mara. Eventually, the troopers leave, and they have to sneak away. Mara can't call for help without it being picked up by the Imperials, so they're stuck with each other.

Luke negotiates his way into being taken along. Mara responds with a speech about how much she hates him. The gun is coming up when he mentions that he might be able to get her a secure comm channel to Karrde, via R2 and the X Wing specifically tuned to him.

R2 needs some kind of dragging frame to navigate the forest. Mara cuts the branches, revealing that she has used a lightsabre before.

Nice to see Luke has some soft skills in 'talking people into not shooting him', skills beyond battle. Now, where would Mara get lightsabre training. I'm leaning back towards ex-Imperial.

[Lethologica]

Nop. Thats what I have been saying, you just decided to read me saying that the OP wont change his mind as a criticism. I see it as a constatation, void of any judgement.

If that's how you feel, your wording failed to reflect it; phrasing the discussion as people wasting their time trying to explain to an OP who refuses to be satisfied is decidedly not neutral or free of judgment. I did not just decide to read criticism into the comment; criticism was written in, by intent or accident.

Judgment or not, your constatation about the essential fixedness of OP's opinion remains baseless and is now contradicted by the OP, so perhaps the process by which you arrived at such a constatation deserves some scrutiny as well. You're the only one who can do that, though.

[Peelee]

True, but that deception fails the instant C'Baoth hears the name Chimaera. He knows it's Thrawn's flagship. He knows Luke was moving from the mining complex to Jomark. So Thrawn's personal ship being on that route with an Interdictor in tow is highly unlikely to be anything other than treachery.

Why would Luke mention the name to C'Baoth? There's no reason to assume he would explicitly name the Chimaera; when he told Han that Vader was on the SSD by the second Death Star, and Han tried to reassure him that there were a lot of command ships, nobody so much as mentioned, "ah, but this is the Executor." C'Baoth wouldn't care which Star Destroyer tried to stop Luke, all he would care was that a Star Destroyer tried to stop Luke. At this point in the story, he's represented as being somewhat paranoid. Any Imperial ship would likely trigger him, unless there was he was satisfied that it was an accident.

[Cikomyr]

Today I learned a new word! Also, is it more prevalent up where people also speak French? I've never heard of it before.

Arg... Maybe its a french word, yes. Sorry if it caused confusion.

I meant it as "just saying a fact".

Btw, your corrections of Wookiee grammar is also one of the things i like about this thread too. Focus on the positive people ^_^

[Peelee]

Arg... Maybe its a french word, yes. Sorry if it caused confusion.

I meant it as "just saying a fact".

Btw, your corrections of Wookiee grammar is also one of the things i like about this thread too. Focus on the positive people ^_^

Hooray! I was afraid that all the focus on it in this thread was annoying people.

[Cikomyr]

I believe I was explicit that the entire idea of this Let's Read was to see if my opinions would change. But whatever. I'm not frustrated, if I wasn't interested in people's opinions I wouldn't have bothered making a thread. Especially as many of you are very well versed in the lore, it's been very interesting to read various bits of background and alternate interpretation, I mean, I even got back some optimism about Episode 8 from this.

That is fair. Around the discussion regarding the Battle of Endor and Thrawn's theories, where you had an interpretation, and many people (me included) disagreed and tried to explain why you may misunderstand. I really got frustrated by what i perceived as willing obtusness, until I realized the whole conflcit came from arrogance.

My arrogance. Basically, i refused the fact that you had a different view of things as I, and I inferred something I shouldn't have.

Trying to explain our (my) point of view is fine. Insisting while you rejected our arguments just lead to pointless argumentation and frustration. Because apparently, we decided that people thinking differently than us has to be corrected, no matter the triviality of the topic. And i realized that its wrong.

If this was me, I'd like a quote, please. I did not mean to make any such accusations.

It wasn't you, but it was around the Battle of Endor discussion, so fairly early in the thread. Its water under the bridge now.

An unescorted Interdictor wasn't the issue, so much as escorting it with the flagship of your fleet making it difficult to believe that it could pass for a coincidental traffic stop, especially as the ship hails Luke using its real name. Half the issue would be gone if, say, the Death's Head was the escort instead.

Yes, no, maybe. I never saw this as an issue, but maybe i didnt had critical thinking when I first read the book. Nevertheless, once everybody has said their piece, why keep insisting they are right and you are wrong? I personally think your Lets Read is pleasant, and we shouldnt let trivial argument distract from the event more than 2 days in a row xD

Luke notes an ISD in orbit and Karrde's fighter in pursuit, and that this is somewhat suboptimal. He's not familiar with the fighter model he's flying, and unfortunately, his pursuer appears to know what they're doing. He assumes it's Mara Jade -force sense, or just competence?

I think it has been said before. The whole planet has no Force presence, due to the Ysalamari. So there is no way Luke knows its Mara through the Force; so its 100% competence.

In fact, Jedi's nonForce skills and Talents is something of a subtle theme in Zhan's books (okay, only read this Trilogy and the Hand of Thrawn). There is, sometimes, a point made about Jedi being dependant on the Force; where they risk becoming nothing more than Superwizards who arent able to do anything without the Force. Zhan keeps rewarding characters who refuse the Force to become a crutch, and humiliates those who weild it like a sledgehammer.

[Aotrs Commander]

Today I learned a new word! Also, is it more prevalent up where people also speak French? I've never heard of it before.

Oh, I nearly missed that!

*files away for future use*

You learn summat new every day, I frequently say.

[Cikomyr]

Oh, I nearly missed that!

*files away for future use*

You learn summat new every day, I frequently say.

/Shy

Its not an english word. Its basically Ascertainment

Sorry again.

[Peelee]

Oh, I nearly missed that!

*files away for future use*

You learn summat new every day, I frequently say.

About 955,000 results (0.65 seconds)
Search Results

Summat is a British dialect form of the word 'something'.
Summat definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us...english/summat

Sometimes more than one summat, apparently.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Nice to see Luke has some soft skills in 'talking people into not shooting him', skills beyond battle. Now, where would Mara get lightsabre training. I'm leaning back towards ex-Imperial.

That first part is 100% my favorite part of EU characterization of Luke - taking all those skills he learned to Family Speech at his dad and making him as much of a personal diplomat as Leia is a professional one. A lot of other authors have a bad habit of making him this untouchably powerful Jedi Jesus when really he's still fundamentally a kid who got into something way over his head and accomplished his greatest feats through empathy and fast talking.

[pendell]

Well, I'm enjoying this thread because I'm always up for a discussion of Zahn's EU -- imo, one of the very few works from the pre-Disney EU worth keeping. Thanks to Sapphire Guard for starting and continuing the thread!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Sapphire Guard]

Why would Luke mention the name to C'Baoth?

Why not? The first thing he's likely to ask a captured Luke is 'how were you caught?', and as C'Baoth is working with the empire, he could very well be interested in how that happened. The name may or may not come up, but it's a huge risk to take when it's avoidable just by pretending to be the Judicator.

Also Thrawn has no way of knowing whether Luke could already know the name of his ship -earlier, Karrde was immediately able to identify it as Thrawn's ship just from the name. He may be especially well connected, but so is Luke.

I still find it jarring to reconcile 'we're critically shorthanded' with 'we can spare the flagship' and 'we can now spare no other ships' But it's time to move on.

I think it has been said before. The whole planet has no Force presence, due to the Ysalamari. So there is no way Luke knows its Mara through the Force; so its 100% competence.

I thought since they were in fighters, they might have been far enough away from the ysalamiri. But seemingly not. I wonder why, though, I mean Karrde is likely to have a number of good pilots on staff.

CH24:

Karrde is apologetic about chasing out Han, who challenges him on working with Imperials. Karrde points out again that he's not in position to work for either of them. Han wants to leave, but the Chimaera is still in orbit so he's grounded for the moment. He decides to return to the Falcon, which Karrde can't really stop them from doing. Instead, they decide to check out their mysterious prisoner's cell. They note the blasted lock, and are interrupted by Karrde.

Karrde is very upset at the accusation that he's a slaver. Interesting. Lando discovers the power supply of Luke's hand in the door lock and possibly unwisely, challenges Karrde with the information. Karrde gives up and tells them that Luke escaped, but points out that if he wanted to turn any of them over to the Imperials, he would've done it by now.

On the Chimaera, Pellaeon is reporting to Thrawn about the transmission picked up. They can't decrypt it yet, but they know the crash survivors have only one real town they can go to. Thrawn orders three squads of Stormtroopers to set up there. Is there a set size for 'squad' in the Imperial army? If that's only thirty people, I'm not sure it's enough. Apparently Thrawn agrees, because he supplies them with assault vehicles and scouts.

He explains his suspicions, entertaining the possibility that it's Skywalker in the escaped fighter. They have to leave soon, because of the raid on the shipyards. They've been planning that for over 200 pages now, so it must be quite the stronghold.

We move back to Mara and Luke's orienteering adventure. I'm not certain that transmission was so good an idea, when the Imperials eventually do decrypt it, the first thing they're going to do is come gunning for Karrde's operations. They stop for the night, and Mara contemplates her life choices. Karrde is notably good to his people, she is confident that he will risk Imperial wrath for her. Not wanting to get him killed, she doesn't want to just disappear. We also see again that she is personally acquainted with Thrawn somehow.

Luke settles in for the night. Mara prefers to stay awake, courtesy of stimulants, sensibly.

Back to Karrde, who is entirely understandably not very pleased at how the day has gone. He talks to Aves, an aide, and they talk about how they take guest right seriously. It looks like Karrde used to be a planetary governor of some kind, Thrawn implied that he can get hold of warships if he needs to, and that he's used to high diplomatic guests. They have to find Skywalker first to keep him away from the Imperials.

Luke is a controversial figure among the smuggling crew, some feel he's heroic for taking down Jabba, so they might not follow a kill order if he gives one.

He's in an incredibly difficult position, but holding up pretty well considering. Either way, he knows he has to get the hell of the planet as soon as he can, because Thrawn is not going to be happy.

[Keltest]

Why not? The first thing he's likely to ask a captured Luke is 'how were you caught?', and as C'Baoth is working with the empire, he could very well be interested in how that happened. The name may or may not come up, but it's a huge risk to take when it's avoidable just by pretending to be the Judicator.

Also Thrawn has no way of knowing whether Luke could already know the name of his ship -earlier, Karrde was immediately able to identify it as Thrawn's ship just from the name. He may be especially well connected, but so is Luke.

I still find it jarring to reconcile 'we're critically shorthanded' with 'we can spare the flagship' and 'we can now spare no other ships' But it's time to move on.

I think youre just placing more importance on the idea of a flagship than Thrawn does. Its not a super imposing weapon with a big "Shoot here to decapitate the fleet" sign on it, its just the ship Thrawn spends most of his time on. It is not inherently more capable or valuable than any other ship, save for the people who are onboard it at any given moment, and those can be transferred to some other ship if necessary.

[Peelee]

Why not? The first thing he's likely to ask a captured Luke is 'how were you caught?', and as C'Baoth is working with the empire, he could very well be interested in how that happened. The name may or may not come up, but it's a huge risk to take when it's avoidable just by pretending to be the Judicator.

Also Thrawn has no way of knowing whether Luke could already know the name of his ship -earlier, Karrde was immediately able to identify it as Thrawn's ship just from the name. He may be especially well connected, but so is Luke.

"Why not" is actually a terrible reason here.

Spoiler: Rogue One spoiler, nothing to do with Heir to the Empire except to bolster my argument

Show

When the Star Destroyer jumped into the battle over Scarif, nobody said, "oh no, the Devastator!" Vader never said, "ah, the Tantive IV, the ship I saw escape from Scarif!

When Luke and Han saw the SSD over Endor, neither of them said, "blast, the Executor! The same ship Vader was on during Hoth!" Nobody calls out the specific names of the ships because that's fairly unimportant*. If C'baoth asks Luke, "how were you caught," the answer would almost certainly be "a Star Destoyer tried to capture me," not "a ship called the Chimaera tried to capture me." The name has no meaning to Luke, the important information was that it was a Star Destroyer, not which specific Star Destroyer. It's needlessly specific. There's no reason to volunteer the information, so far as Luke is concerned, anymore than there would be reason to volunteer the shipyards it was made in or the ship's commission date.

Also, what Keltest said.

*Invisible Hand is the only one I can even think of where anyone mentioned the name of a ship being important, and that's because it was the specific target of a specific military mission.

[Keltest]

I would even go so far as to add that, given Thrawn's relatively unknown status, the fact that his flagship is just another star destroyer may actually lend further credence to the idea that this isn't anything out of the ordinary. The empire historically has relied on large, impractical symbols and statements, like the Super Star Destroyers or the Death Stars, using them even when other tools would be far more practical in a given situation. Now Thrawn doesn't do this because he isn't a moron, but people don't know this yet. Theyre still expecting the Black Hole Eater or something to show up and try and scare people into submission for the umpteenth time whenever the empire is undertaking a big plan.

[pendell]

I think youre just placing more importance on the idea of a flagship than Thrawn does. Its not a super imposing weapon with a big "Shoot here to decapitate the fleet" sign on it, its just the ship Thrawn spends most of his time on. It is not inherently more capable or valuable than any other ship, save for the people who are onboard it at any given moment, and those can be transferred to some other ship if necessary.

Quite right. Thrawn is an Admiral and the Chimaera is one of the ships in his command. He spends a lot of time on it grooming Pelleaon as a promising officer but he is not assigned to the ship permanently the way a duty crewer is.

BTW, insofar as I know there's only one ISD named in the whole of the original Trilogy -- the Avenger, so-named during the pursuit after Hoth, and that only because they needed some way to distinguish it from all the other white triangles in the eyes of the audience.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[hamishspence]

When Luke and Han saw the SSD over Endor, neither of them said, "blast, the Executor! The same ship Vader was on during Hoth!"

Indeed, it really hammers home that you can't easily be sure what particular ship it is with:

"Now don't be jittery - there are a lot of command ships"

[Hunter Noventa]

Quite right. Thrawn is an Admiral and the Chimaera is one of the ships in his command. He spends a lot of time on it grooming Pelleaon as a promising officer but he is not assigned to the ship permanently the way a duty crewer is.

BTW, insofar as I know there's only one ISD named in the whole of the original Trilogy -- the Avenger, so-named during the pursuit after Hoth, and that only because they needed some way to distinguish it from all the other white triangles in the eyes of the audience.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I don't even think the Tantive IV was named in the movie either. Both it and the Devastator were named in the New Hope Radio Dramas though.

[pendell]

Quite right. Thrawn is an Admiral and the Chimaera is one of the ships in his command. He spends a lot of time on it grooming Pelleaon as a promising officer but he is not assigned to the ship permanently the way a duty crewer is.

BTW, insofar as I know there's only one ISD named in the whole of the original Trilogy -- the Avenger, so-named during the pursuit after Hoth, and that only because they needed some way to distinguish it from all the other white triangles in the eyes of the audience.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Thinking about it, the first sentence above is sophistry; the Chimaera is the flagship as long as the admiral is aboard. So that argument fails.

Nonetheless, it seems that all the New Republic knows at this point is there are rumors of an Imperial military genius -- who he is, what his rank is, the fact that he is an alien, the fact that he has made the Chimaera his flag -- all appear to be unknown at this point.

None of this changes the fact that C'baoth knows very well what it is. So if Luke reveals the attempt, he will immediate suspect Thrawn, who will claim it was an unrelated trap and they happened on Skywalker by mistake.

..
Wait a minute.

That's it

This entire charade with the freighter isn't solely for the benefit of the New Republic.

It is also for the benefit of C'baoth, should Luke succeed in escaping.

Which doesn't mean some of this isn't aimed at the NR as well. After all, exactly how does the Grand Admiral know Luke Skywalker's precise timetable and itinerary? Pretending this is an accidental encounter may put the security hounds in the Republic off the scent. For awhile , at least.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Jallorn]

Which doesn't mean some of this isn't aimed at the NR as well. After all, exactly how does the Grand Admiral know Luke Skywalker's precise timetable and itinerary?

Spoiler

Show

That's actually a major plot point later.

[russdm]

Spoiler

Show

That's actually a major plot point later.

Spoiler: For book 3, and further than OP has read

Show

I think the reveal of what Thrawn's source of information has to be, makes for one of the funnier moments, especially given how it works. It is probably a neat idea, with a simple problem: It records everything, so Thrawn has to spend a considerable amount of time sorting through the reports to find gems hidden in the information that he can use. So, the source ends up with just huge amounts of information.

I mean, it works to frighten you, but hearing the various bits that it picked up according to Ghent, it appears to be the galaxy's most ADHD Spy. But, no, it works differently. It still comes across as being really ADHD though. I get the solution, which is nice, but it does end up with a center amount of silliness, especially since the Emperor apparently used it himself. How much junk got picked up that the Emperor had to discard? I think seeing either Emperor or Thrawn reading through the reports and picking out what was of value would make for a good story.

As for the name, did it have any relation to the character from Black Panther? Was it T'Challa trees or was it something similar and I am confusing it?