Reading Heir to the Empire

[Jallorn]

Your first point is good, and bolstered by hamishspence. I'll concede the point. But likening droids to furniture is ridiculous. They can have clear personalities and personal agency (such as in R2's case), making them much more than furniture, even if less than people. It's a bad comparison.

It's headcanon, but I might suspect that Obi-Wan's insistence that droids aren't people might be, in part, because if they were, his morals would insist that they be treated as such on a system-wide scale, and as noble and adventure-ready as Obi-Wan can be, he's not really keen on engaging with a full upset of the system, especially when he's been told that, no, they aren't people. Essentially, between prejudices, which he has been shown to have, and moral consequences if he's wrong, he can't ever make himself face the possibility.

Of course, then the Clones were treated much the same, so...

[Kish]

I don't think there's any ambiguity that droids are widely regarded as simple property in the Star Wars universe. People, including people who are meant to be sympathetic, wipe their memories with no more apparent guilt than I feel about deleting files on my hard drive, and talk about having them scrapped with no more moral concern than I felt about throwing out my old Commodore 64.

You can say that puts a rather low ceiling on how heroic any character in the movies is, and I'd probably agree with you, but it's not at all surprising that Obi-Wan didn't bother to remember R2, any more than Bail Organa hesitated to have C-3PO's memory wiped or Luke felt the need to obtain any form of consent or warn him before sending him to infiltrate Jabba's palace.

Though there are plenty of continuity errors introduced by the prequels ("When I met your father he was a pilot. And when I say 'pilot,' you understand, I mean a little boy who flew a ship under incredibly contrived circumstances so that it would be less preposterous for me to say that.")

[pendell]

I don't think there's any ambiguity that droids are widely regarded as simple property in the Star Wars universe. People, including people who are meant to be sympathetic, wipe their memories with no more apparent guilt than I feel about deleting files on my hard drive, and talk about having them scrapped with no more moral concern than I felt about throwing out my old Commodore 64.

Now that's a story no one's told in the Star Wars galaxy -- the tale of how sapient droids get fed up with being treated like disposable property and demand their rights. What would happen? Butlerian Jihad? Which side would our heroes take, especially since the Jedi seem to have a real bias against inorganic life?

Sad to say, the Republic as we've seen it really is a lot like the old Roman Empire, in that everything about the Republic revolves around Coruscant. The Republic is the Best Thing Ever if you're a citizen of the core worlds, less so if you're a droid or living in the outer rim. Which is why there was a Separatist movement in the first place.

At any rate -- I'd love to see the story of the droids struggling for civil rights -- if they can ever stop re-telling the same Death Star story over and over.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Hunter Noventa]

Now that's a story no one's told in the Star Wars galaxy -- the tale of how sapient droids get fed up with being treated like disposable property and demand their rights. What would happen? Butlerian Jihad? Which side would our heroes take, especially since the Jedi seem to have a real bias against inorganic life?

Sad to say, the Republic as we've seen it really is a lot like the old Roman Empire, in that everything about the Republic revolves around Coruscant. The Republic is the Best Thing Ever if you're a citizen of the core worlds, less so if you're a droid or living in the outer rim. Which is why there was a Separatist movement in the first place.

At any rate -- I'd love to see the story of the droids struggling for civil rights -- if they can ever stop re-telling the same Death Star story over and over.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

SWtOR had a mission regarding the prevention of a droid uprising, but it was really just a side mission and not part of the main plot.

[DataNinja]

Now that's a story no one's told in the Star Wars galaxy -- the tale of how sapient droids get fed up with being treated like disposable property and demand their rights.

I mean, we did get the tale of IG-88, which was kinda along those lines... it was just one droid (well, a planet's worth in the end), rather than a galaxy's worth.

[Kish]

SWTOR does kind of a lot with that theme, but it's shackled by its prequel status; it can't really do "and then droids were granted full legal rights."

Also, in SWTOR the Republic is unambiguously riddled with corruption and generally terrible, its primary selling point being "we don't openly embrace evil as a philosophy and write race-based chattel slavery into our charter (except for droids), like the Empire."

[Keltest]

I mean, we did get the tale of IG-88, which was kinda along those lines... it was just one droid (well, a planet's worth in the end), rather than a galaxy's worth.

And he trolled the emperor in the Death Star! How cool is that?

[GrayDeath]

Indeed, these 2 examples are all I have heard of as well.

And yeah, TOR is never that great, its just that contrasted to the Empire of its time it kind of is (even the new Empire might have not been that much worse, seeing Palpy came to power legally at least some people might not have been completely fooled^^).

Ah well, maybe Disney will make something further off the line. after all, droid minis sell well!

[Sapphire Guard]

I think the point of that scene was that Tarkin isn't a naval commander, he's a political officer. It's like someone telling the President, "Hey, there's a chance that this battleship is going to explode. It probably won't, but we would like to get you back to safety just in case" and the President saying "F U I want to watch the other guys explode!"

There wasn't time for a mass evacuation, but Tarkin could have gotten out. They were still a few minutes away from firing, and the Death Star got destroyed at the last second.

He pretty much is treated like the Commanding Officer, though. His uniform is military (cubes of rank), they wait to fire on his command, the officers call him 'sir'.

...well, of course Tarkin's blatant incompetence isn't visible anymore if you deliberately phrase your description of events to ignore it.

You keep asserting the Empire in the movies isn't as grossly incompetent as it actually is. Not supporting--just asserting. Faced with examples to the contrary you act like you didn't see them, even as you nominally respond to the comments that point them out. I wonder why you're doing that. Not wanting to admit that the original movies were as fundamentally cartoonish in their portrayal of their evil organization as they were? It won't change what went up on the screen or make Zahn having a character recognize the problem invalid, you know.

You're right to a point, I was overcompensating a bit there. Tarkin is not perfect, he underestimated Leia. But he's not entirely incompetent either, a non 100pc chance of success is not really good grounds to evacuate, and the 'follow Leia to Rebel base' plan worked.

There's a fairly extensive discussion of Imperial incompetence or lack thereof in the early pages of this thread. If anything's not covered, feel free to bring it up, could make for a good discussion.

CH9:
Khabarakh arrives in a small ship, and Leia agrees to meet him. Chewbacca wants to go too, which Leia isn't happy about. Khabarakh wonders what's going on, and she tells the truth. Having heard of Wookiee honour, he agrees to allow Chewbacca aboard, which is very accomodating under the circumstances.

They cross over, and spend four days travelling. Khabarakh keeps to himself, so she doesn't learn much, except that he is very apprehensive about whatever's going to happen on his homeworld. They arrive to a world that appears mostly dead. They comment a bit...and then notice the ISD.

Chewbacca makes a run for the cockpit, assuming betrayal, and the door opens immediately whereupon Khabarakh, from his chair, throw Chewbacca to the ground. That takes skills. Khabarakh says he hasn't betrated his word, and needs Leia to calm him down so he can respond to the contact. Chewbacca is not very calm, and Khabarakh is eventually forced to stun him so he can respond to air traffic control.

With the ISD in hand, they can't go to the capital, so he has to take her to his own home. Thrawn was given direct authority over the Noghri by Vader, which they're not happy about but stuck with.

In the capital, the Noghri clan leaders are swearing allegiance to Thrawn. Pellaeon's bored. He's interrupted by a lieutenant with news of Khabarakh's ship. Thrawn interrupts the ritual, takes the report, and decides to go meet the ship when it lands.

Well, bringing Chewbacca has certainly backfired. I wonder how often Thrawn's meetings get interrupted by actual minor equipment malfunctions, if every anomaly gets reported directly to him.

[Rakaydos]

I wonder how often Thrawn's meetings get interrupted by actual minor equipment malfunctions, if every anomaly gets reported directly to him.

"Of course. The JXZ transponder has long had trouble." "Sir, it's standard imperial equipment." "Likely supply side bribery. Remind me to send out investigators. But where were we?"

[GrayDeath]

Well, bringing Chewbacca has certainly backfired. I wonder how often Thrawn's meetings get interrupted by actual minor equipment malfunctions, if every anomaly gets reported directly to him.

They`re on a really really secret planet, of deadly assassins nonetheless, Thrawn has shown a tendencey to want to know strange stuff AND in addition: read the enxt chapter. ;)
Not saying more.

[Peelee]

You're right to a point, I was overcompensating a bit there. Tarkin is not perfect, he underestimated Leia. But he's not entirely incompetent either, a non 100pc chance of success is not really good grounds to evacuate, and the 'follow Leia to Rebel base' plan worked.

To be fair, the "track the Falcon to the base" plan seems to have been Vader's. Or, at the very least, not-Tarkin's.

Governor Tarkin: Are they away?
Darth Vader: They've just made the jump into hyperspace.
Governor Tarkin: You're sure the homing beacon is secure aboard their ship? I'm taking an awful risk, Vader. This had better work.

ETA:

We don't have complete numbers of Thrawn's fleet (at least 12 SDs?)

REALLY late to the party here, but according to Specter of the Past, the Empire has 200 Star Destroyers remaining at 19 years after the Episode IV, and 25,000 Star Destroyers at its height. Assuming the unified Empire (so not counting any warlords) recognized Thrawn as the leader of the Empire, he should have still had a sizeable number of capital ships to play around with 5 years after Endor. Unless you're talking about a personal armada, like Vader's Death Squadron.

[Sapphire Guard]

They`re on a really really secret planet, of deadly assassins nonetheless, Thrawn has shown a tendencey to want to know strange stuff AND in addition: read the enxt chapter. ;) ]

It's a native ship, flown by a real native, that gave the correct passcode slightly late. Not much there that screams 'Notify the Admiral immediately!' When Thrawn recognises his name, that's a good reason to take an interest, but before that? Not so much.

Spoiler: Do not answer this speculation

Show

It doesn't seem like Thrawn has any actual grounds to be on alert here, has he reasons to doubt the Noghri loyalty, with their Wookiee like dedication to him? I mean,
the previous commando teams were all slaughtered, so while you might doubt their effectiveness it's hard to question their loyalty.

To be fair, the "track the Falcon to the base" plan seems to have been Vader's. Or, at the very least, not-Tarkin's.

Fair.

REALLY late to the party here, but according to Specter of the Past, the Empire has 200 Star Destroyers remaining at 19 years after the Episode IV, and 25,000 Star Destroyers at its height. Assuming the unified Empire (so not counting any warlords) recognized Thrawn as the leader of the Empire, he should have still had a sizeable number of capital ships to play around with 5 years after Endor. Unless you're talking about a personal armada, like Vader's Death Squadron.

Yeah, but it doesn't seem like Thrawn has access to all of those. During the shipyards raid, I think there were five ISDs and he couldn't spare any to go back to Myrkr. The limit I've seen him use is three simultaneous raids of four ISDs each. Plus they keep talking about how critically short of ships they are.

CH10: Khabarakh lands in his village, which is not unheard of, but rare, so they'll draw attention. He leaves her in the ship to go announce her to the clan head. C3PO decides that these people are only recently spacefaring.

They're introduced, and Leia notices that the lead is female. It's an unknown alien race, those bumps on her front could be venom sacs for all you know. But she's right. The clan maitrakh sniffs her.

'I greet you, Lady Vader. But I do not welcome you.'

Fair enough, that would be my reaction too.

Chewbacca bursts in, noting the shuttles approaching from Nystao. The clan leader is obliged to hide her thanks to the declaration of protection, so they put Leia in the bakehouse and C3PO in the droid shed.

Thrawn lands in time for an honour guard to greet him. A tech team scans the ship, and Thrawn goes into the clan hall to be greeted. Khabarakh's there too, and is immediately quizzed as to 'where the hell have you been?' and such. He answers that after his escape, he filed his report and then went to be alone to reflect on his failings. He didn't land at the main port because he wanted to go home first to be forgiven for his failure.

The tech team reports in that they discovered a legitimate malfunction in Khabarakh's ship. Thrawn reassigns him and leaves.

In the shuttle, he reveals that he knows something's up with Khabarakh. But being nervous in front of Thrawn isn't incriminating in itself, which gives rise to some tensions in the clan. Still, he knows something's up and orders the ship scanned. Surveillance is trickier, as a human spy or Noghri plant isn't going to blend in in a small village in the middle of nowhere. They compromise with a fake droid spy, although 3PO will presumably notice whenever they install it in the droid shed.

I read on, because I thought the last chapter was shorter than it turned out to be.

CH11:

Han and Lando arrive at whereever it is they're being brought to. They're locked into their ship by 'mistake'. The ship they're in is called the Peregrine, after an old Corellian ghost story.

They land planetside, in what looks like a decent sized army base, and Han is conducted into the presence of a man he recognises, 'Senator Bel Iblis' is famous and presumed dead, and once met Han at school when he was 11. They chat for a bit, then return to Lando. Breil'lya is here too, and not entirely pleased. They go to say hello.

Back on the Chimaera, Pellaeon has a report for Thrawn. He's sick of the Rukh needlessly jumpscaring him by now. Thrawn shows him footage of Han et al's escape from New Cov. So they're wondering who their new Corellian friend is.

Communication comes through with Niles Ferrier in captivity. Long story short, Thrawn hires him to steal the Dreadnaughts from the Corellian, by virtue of a time delayed bomb in his ship.

Pellaeon remembers why he's here in the first place and hands over a report. Wookiee hair was found on his ship. They interpret this as him being caught and interrogated on Kashyyyk. Well, this is awkward.

Thrawn orders a shuttle, stormtroopers, and two flights of assault bombers, which is a very strong response to a flyspeck village. Meanwhile, Pellaeon prepares a show of force.

Wow, bringing Chewbacca on this mission has really backfired. Whatever else happens from here, I don't see Khabarakh coming out of this alive. And probably the rest of the village as well.

[Aotrs Commander]

Yeah, but it doesn't seem like Thrawn has access to all of those. During the shipyards raid, I think there were five ISDs and he couldn't spare any to go back to Myrkr. The limit I've seen him use is three simultaneous raids of four ISDs each. Plus they keep talking about how critically short of ships they are.

He almost certainly doesn't. The Empire itself at the height probably didn't have access to all that many ships for an operation at any one time, since the majority of them would be actually on patrol and garrison duties and keeping the peace (often forcefully). And there are A LOT of systems to keep watch over - the bulk of the military forces will be doing that, leaving only a relatively small proportion of that for actual outside combat operations. (Look how relatively small Endor was by comparison, which supports that explanation (in the OldEU Canon).)

[Peelee]

R2 is, as far as I know, shown to be immensely unusual in having personality and agency. Even combat droids, which are specifically designed with a degree of agency in mind, aren't normally as good as biological sentients are.

As far as droid agency goes, the only purpose for restraining bolts to exist is if droids have agency.

[Keltest]

As far as droid agency goes, the only purpose for restraining bolts to exist is if droids have agency.

I said unusual, not unheard of. At least in old canon, some droid models were more prone to it than others. Astromech Droids were prone to developing it, and were usually proactively monitored to make sure that didn't happen. R2 is unusual because that behavior was encouraged in him.

[Sapphire Guard]

Surprising how much sense that makes, really. Astromechs have to make a lot of quick decisions, possibly under fire. The millions of B1s are made in such numbers that it's impractical to wipe them all, hence the warped personalities.

CH12: Leia wakes up in the bakehouse, worrys about betrayal a bit, then goes outside. A nearby child directs her to the dukha. It's elaborately carved, and she goes inside. C3PO is telling a story to a group of children, Chewbacca and Khabarakh are doing something with their hands, and Leia moves in to the maitrakh, who tells her that C3PO is teaching the last moments of Vader.

Chewbacca is the one who improvised the real malfunction on the ship, which temporarily saved of their lives. The maitrakh then points out that she will essentially bring 'discord and death' if they try to slip Thrawn's leash. Fair enough.
ir dilemma
She outlines the history of the land, it's always been hard, but since the spacebattle, where a ship crashed and released toxic chemicalsd, life around here is even harder than usual. Vader came down to say hello and was attacked, losing enough of his guards that he hired the others.

So, the Emperor saw that the locals had skills and decided to make use of them. Basically, they're screwed, and any attempt to turn their coats will result in reprisals that destroy the rest of the planet. The maitrakh knows it's an impossible debt, but there's nothing she can do about it. So Leia agrees to leave, but promises to help whenever it's feasible to try. Then they get interrupted by the return of Thrawn's shuttle on the horizon.

That's an impressively nuanced showing of their dilemma, a lot of works would've just had Leia expecting the locals to die for her just because. Also, Khabarakh is teaching Chewbacca martial arts.

[Peelee]

I said unusual, not unheard of. At least in old canon, some droid models were more prone to it than others. Astromech Droids were prone to developing it, and were usually proactively monitored to make sure that didn't happen. R2 is unusual because that behavior was encouraged in him.

3PO is totally servile to his new masters, yet gets a restraining bolt. And Luke let's an astromech out of his bolt under the logic that he's too small to run away on them of he removes it. So he clearly expects a certain degree of agency from all droids, or he would have no need to bolt them to begin with, and he certainly would be more cagey about letting the astromech out of it.

It's like the old canon was a jumbled, disorganized mess, or something.

[Manga Shoggoth]

3PO is totally servile to his new masters, yet gets a restraining bolt. And Luke let's an astromech out of his bolt under the logic that he's too small to run away on them of he removes it. So he clearly expects a certain degree of agency from all droids, or he would have no need to bolt them to begin with, and he certainly would be more cagey about letting the astromech out of it.

It's like the old canon was a jumbled, disorganized mess, or something.

Actually, the restraining bolt was put on by the Jawas when they "picked up" the droids. Luke simply hasn't removed them - possibly a good idea with droids just brought from a group who are only fractionally above droid slavers..

[Peelee]

Actually, the restraining bolt was put on by the Jawas when they "picked up" the droids. Luke simply hasn't removed them - possibly a good idea with droids just brought from a group who are only fractionally above droid slavers..

True enough. Though he still rationalized taking it off R2 by judging based on the difficulty of him running away and not his model.

[Jallorn]

True enough. Though he still rationalized taking it off R2 by judging based on the difficulty of him running away and not his model.

I mean, Luke's character is pretty much naive farmboy in that first movie. Not really being personally experienced with astromech droids to the point of realizing they are unpredictable to that extent isn't unreasonable.

[The_Snark]

Also, it is a small wheeled robot designed for use on a spaceship, in the middle of a massive sandy desert. Running away was kind of bonkers.

[Peelee]

I mean, Luke's character is pretty much naive farmboy in that first movie. Not really being personally experienced with astromech droids to the point of realizing they are unpredictable to that extent isn't unreasonable.

Yet with though knowledge about their capabilities to give them instructions in combat. Also, droids are part of everyday life in the SW universe; it'd be like a backwoods Alabama guy who wants to go join West Point and has writing knowledge of cell phone apps that are geared towards auto mechanics.

[Jallorn]

Yet with though knowledge about their capabilities to give them instructions in combat. Also, droids are part of everyday life in the SW universe; it'd be like a backwoods Alabama guy who wants to go join West Point and has writing knowledge of cell phone apps that are geared towards auto mechanics.

More like an Alabama car enthusiast who underestimates how irritating minor quirks of a fancy car's computer integration can be because he thinks everyone who has told him about it may be exaggerating for effect.

[Keltest]

True enough. Though he still rationalized taking it off R2 by judging based on the difficulty of him running away and not his model.

Given what was noted about the jawas, its not at all out of the question that they programmed their droids to return to them once the restraining bolt is removed on the off chance somebody (like, say, Luke) is careless enough to take it off immediately and then just leave the droid to its own devices. I mean, what are the farmers going to do, call the police?

[Peelee]

Given what was noted about the jawas, its not at all out of the question that they programmed their droids to return to them once the restraining bolt is removed on the off chance somebody (like, say, Luke) is careless enough to take it off immediately and then just leave the droid to its own devices. I mean, what are the farmers going to do, call the police?

Given what was noted about the Jawas, it's more likely they just wouldn't put restraining bolts on at all, if they were going to do that. Or put empty shells on.

Also, farmers stereotypically have trucks and guns. Or, in Luke's case, landspeeders and laser rifles. What are the Jawas gonna do, call the police?

More like an Alabama car enthusiast who underestimates how irritating minor quirks of a fancy car's computer integration can be because he thinks everyone who has told him about it may be exaggerating for effect.

Who then uses that same computer integration perfectly well while driving an F1 course?

[Keltest]

Given what was noted about the Jawas, it's more likely they just wouldn't put restraining bolts on at all, if they were going to do that. Or put empty shells on.

Also, farmers stereotypically have trucks and guns. Or, in Luke's case, landspeeders and laser rifles. What are the Jawas gonna do, call the police?

No, run him over with their tank. Anyway, nobody would deal with Jawas if they always robbed their customers.

[Peelee]

No, run him over with their tank. Anyway, nobody would deal with Jawas if they always robbed their customers.

Only if the Jawas reprogrammed the droids but then also put a device to prevent the programming from taking effect, but they need to use them anyway because of the one droid type's propensity for independence?

Also, Jawa tanks are shown to be not very resistant to blaster fire.

[Keltest]

Only if the Jawas reprogrammed the droids but then also put a device to prevent the programming from taking effect, but they need to use them anyway because of the one droid type's propensity for independence?

Also, Jawa tanks are shown to be not very resistant to blaster fire.

I think youre getting too caught up in the details here. The Jawas are the equivalents of used car salesmen. Even if they personally didn't do anything to the droids, theres still the possibility of getting various unwanted behavior from the droids that was left over from their previous occupations, like, say, an instruction to seek out a specific person and deliver a message to him.

Heck, Owen straight up says theyre going to clean up the droids in the morning and wipe their memories.

[Peelee]

I think youre getting too caught up in the details here.

Meanwhile, you're getting too caught up in the generalizations. 3PO gets into a restricted escape pod. 3PO gets into an argument with R2 over which way to go, and ultimately chooses his own way. 3PO expresses opinions, such as a dislike for space travel and dislike of rude droids. He has as much personality and agency as an astromech, despite being a protocol droid with frequent memory wipes.