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    Default Re: Reading Heir to the Empire

    Regarding Thrawn's opinion of the primitives...
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    I think it's important to remember that Thrawn himself was underestimated and considered a primitive at first. It's been years since I read it, and don't have a copy of the books on hand, but I believe there was one point (either in Heir to the Empire or Hand of Thrawn) that he's said to have wiped out an entire Imperial attack force using far inferior technology. That's what brought him to the Emperor's attention.

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    Default Re: Reading Heir to the Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    If only that guy had read anything on how to write competently.


    Keep it at, "a space wizard with a fleet of military warships can't find a guy, so he brings in a bounty hunter who immediately finds the guy, then gets a double bounty on that guy, but despite all that the bounty hunter somehow wasn't competent?"
    Clearly Boba Fett was an insert character. Obviously Gary Sue in its design an competence.

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    Default Re: Reading Heir to the Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Telonius View Post
    Regarding Thrawn's opinion of the primitives...
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    I think it's important to remember that Thrawn himself was underestimated and considered a primitive at first. It's been years since I read it, and don't have a copy of the books on hand, but I believe there was one point (either in Heir to the Empire or Hand of Thrawn) that he's said to have wiped out an entire Imperial attack force using far inferior technology. That's what brought him to the Emperor's attention.
    I believe that particular story was detailed in Survivor's Quest (possibly Outbound Flight), as a short story at the back of the book. I do seem to recall it being mentioned offhand once, but I cannot remember where.
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    Default Re: Reading Heir to the Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    Star Wars tech is a deeply eclectic mess based on choices made by George Lucas and a few others from the perspective of the mid-1970s. This was largely before PCs - when the Millennium Falcon's computer is show in ESB it's the size of a desk. And computer technology is hardy the only area where things are weird. Biotechnology has always had a weird place in Star Wars (something of relevance to the Thrawn Trilogy) because the OT totally predated the modern biotech movement. It's a mess, and as viewers we just have to roll with it.
    Yeah, Star Wars tech is word. Just twenty years later and the Night's Dawn universe gives us humans running around with computers built from components nanometers to a side literally inside their brain. Which you need to effectively control most advanced technology in that setting (including half the starships, the other half require telepathy).

    Sure, and if they'd had a few minutes that would make sense. The Razor's Kiss, operated by a skeleton dockyard crew, managed to reassert control in the midst of combat through the actions of a single trooper, but the Executor goes down in 15 seconds. In Star Wars, someone probably had to flip a bunch of switches and turn a number of dials to transfer over control, adn that could easily have taken too long.
    We really don't know, the time might be longer (aiming dramatic editing we can potentially get up to five minutes, I'm not site how the cuts work in this scene), and we don't know an ISD's delta-V (which will be of slightly in both intensity and direction due to battle damage). A well trained crew might have been able to sorry it out, the editing makes the capabilities unclear (maybe the crew in the secondary bridge did establish control, but decided to increase shields instead of delta-V).

    Well, canon is against that interpretation and there are a number of, admittedly somewhat tortured by this point, explanations as to why. Ultimately Star Wars is a space fantasy, any expectation of scientific accuracy is largely beside the point. The space combat is based on WWII, and WWII ships had vulnerable bridges. So it goes.
    Well yeah, I just read a lot of science fiction, spaceship bridges are central. What's the point of going to space of you're just going to treat it like a sea?
    I prefer science fiction to fantasy, and generally play in the former genre. Due to this, I generally expect the laws of physics to apply to games, and work from that perspective.

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    Default Re: Reading Heir to the Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Telonius View Post
    Regarding Thrawn's opinion of the primitives...
    Spoiler
    Show
    I think it's important to remember that Thrawn himself was underestimated and considered a primitive at first. It's been years since I read it, and don't have a copy of the books on hand, but I believe there was one point (either in Heir to the Empire or Hand of Thrawn) that he's said to have wiped out an entire Imperial attack force using far inferior technology. That's what brought him to the Emperor's attention.
    Don't forget that
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    Thrawn himself is killed by an underestimated primitive.
    Funny, that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    It would be nice to just change the title of this thread to be "stuff about Jedi"

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    Default Re: Reading Heir to the Empire

    To my mind, the important thing about Thrawn is that he is a professional military officer. If you took a Sandhurst or West Point grad, maybe ran him through Frunze or the Army War College as well, put him in an Imperial uniform and dropped him in the EU, Thrawn is what you get. Aside from his intuitive talent with art and his occasional execution of an underling to remind you he's the villain of the story, he really is pretty much on par with the military professionals I have known. It's not that he's a genius; it's just that everyone else in the Star Wars universe is just so bad at their jobs. Whether it's leading men, or military tactics, Thrawn is almost a dash of realism in an otherwise fantastical universe.

    Because of this, I have no reason to complain that he warns against underestimating primitives. Any professional officer in the real world knows about Isandhlwana or the battle of Mogadishu. Modern officers know well that first world armies have had very -- shall we say mixed? -- records in third world military interventions. That's why professional essays such as Bashing the laser rangefinder with a rock, reflecting on the Russian experience in Afghanistan, crop up after every one of these miserable fiascos.

    For that matter, there are whole branches of modern militaries devoted to nothing but training, organizing, and equipping third-world militias to fight conventional armies.

    So, yes. Speaking from history, I can well imagine politicians from large empires brushing off indigenous populations as of being no great concern, and then having a seasoned officer who had occasion to encounter "primitive" troops, for or against , point out very tactfully that they may be more capable than expected. It happened in pretty much every one of the "dirty little wars" of the 19th century, after all.

    Now, Thrawn does not have experience of warfare on earth. But I don't think it's any stretch of the imagination to conclude he must have had similar experience at some point, either for the Chiss Ascendancy or for the Empire.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    Last edited by pendell; 2017-10-06 at 06:27 PM.
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    Default Re: Reading Heir to the Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Don't forget that
    Spoiler: The Last Command
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    Thrawn himself is killed by an underestimated primitive.
    Funny, that.
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    Yep. He just underestimated them a different way. He knew well and good how amazingly useful primitives could be, he just didn't expect them to actually get wind of his scam.


    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    To my mind, the important thing about Thrawn is that he is a professional military officer. If you took a Sandhurst or West Point grad, maybe ran him through Frunze or the Army War College as well, put him in an Imperial uniform and dropped him in the EU, Thrawn is what you get. Aside from his intuitive talent with art and his occasional execution of an underling to remind you he's the villain of the story, he really is pretty much on par with the military professionals I have known. It's not that he's a genius; it's just that everyone else in the Star Wars universe is just so bad at their jobs. Whether it's leading men, or military tactics, Thrawn is almost a dash of realism in an otherwise fantastical universe.

    Because of this, I have no reason to complain that he warns against underestimating primitives. Any professional officer in the real world knows about Isandhlwana or the battle of Mogadishu. Modern officers know well that first world armies have had very -- shall we say mixed? -- records in third world military interventions. That's why professional essays such as Bashing the laser rangefinder with a rock, reflecting on the Russian experience in Afghanistan, crop up after every one of these miserable fiascos.

    For that matter, there are whole branches of modern militaries devoted to nothing but training, organizing, and equipping third-world militias to fight conventional armies.

    So, yes. Speaking from history, I can well imagine politicians from large empires brushing off indigenous populations as of being no great concern, and then having a seasoned officer who had occasion to encounter "primitive" troops, for or against , point out very tactfully that they may be more capable than expected. It happened in pretty much every one of the "dirty little wars" of the 19th century, after all.

    Now, Thrawn does not have experience of warfare on earth. But I don't think it's any stretch of the imagination to conclude he must have had similar experience at some point, either for the Chiss Ascendancy or for the Empire.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    Well in both cases when working for the Chiss or the Empire his job was the same: go to the Outer Rim and deal with problem cultures most of whom would be considered primitives by everyone else.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: Reading Heir to the Empire

    I just want to thank Sapphire Guard for giving some good books a chance in spite (or because of) them getting overhyped to hell by other Star Wars fans and that seeming to be a bit of a turn-off. Who are continuing to do that in this very thread rather than letting the OP draw their own conclusions. Good on you for actually looking into something you have an opinion on, SG, not everyone does that these days.

    Honestly, Thrawn aside these are some of the best Legends books in terms of characterization, world-building, and freshening things up while still telling a very Star Wars story (not that that's a really impressive superlative), so I'm glad you're giving them a chance.

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    Ysalmiri are still kind of dumb, though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    It's in orbit. That means it's moving.
    It's too close to be in geostationary orbit, yet it always remains above the same spot on the planet. This would suggest it's being suspended - like that "Star Destroyer above Jedha with engines apparently switched off" scene - it's probably something like repulsorlifts.

    If the same is true of the fleet in general - then destroying the repulsorlifts on the Executor would result in a prompt plummet. A bit like the Invisible Hand (Grievous's ship) in ROTS).
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Shadow View Post
    I believe that particular story was detailed in Survivor's Quest (possibly Outbound Flight), as a short story at the back of the book. I do seem to recall it being mentioned offhand once, but I cannot remember where.
    You are correct - it was Outbound Flight (paperback edition) - story was called Mist Encounter. Before that, I think it was first in the Star Wars Journal gaming magazine for West End Games.

    Zahn updated it for the newcanon- it's now the introductory chapter (with some changes - no Booster Terrick) of the Thrawn novel.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2017-10-07 at 10:18 AM.
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    Default Re: Reading Heir to the Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    You are correct - it was Outbound Flight (paperback edition) - story was called Mist Encounter. Before that, I think it was first in the Star Wars Journal gaming magazine for West End Games.
    Oh, right. Survivor's Quest's short story is about that one 501st stormtrooper before he became a stormtrooper, isn't it?
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    Default Re: Reading Heir to the Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Shadow View Post
    Oh, right. Survivor's Quest's short story is about that one 501st stormtrooper before he became a stormtrooper, isn't it?
    Huh. I don't remember that story at all.

    Also,
    Spoiler: Thrawn. The novel, not the character. Well, also the character, but thats not the point. Imean, it is but... man, that title makes this hard.
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    the whole "Thrawn being an underestimated "primitive" and taking on a good amount of Imperial forces is re-canonized in Thrawn
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    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    It would be nice to just change the title of this thread to be "stuff about Jedi"

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    Default Re: Reading Heir to the Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Shadow View Post
    Oh, right. Survivor's Quest's short story is about that one 501st stormtrooper before he became a stormtrooper, isn't it?
    It is - Fool's Bargain.
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    Default Re: Reading Heir to the Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    It is - Fool's Bargain.
    Wait, wasn't Fool's Bargain the one where it's non-human stormtroopers?
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    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    It would be nice to just change the title of this thread to be "stuff about Jedi"

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    Default Re: Reading Heir to the Empire

    The stormtroopers in Fool's Bargain are human - the story is how the one nonhuman stormtrooper in Survivors Quest joined the stormtrooper corps in the first place - by working alongside the Imperials during the retaking of his planet from the warlord that conquered it.
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    Default Re: Reading Heir to the Empire

    To my mind, the important thing about Thrawn is that he is a professional military officer. If you took a Sandhurst or West Point grad, maybe ran him through Frunze or the Army War College as well, put him in an Imperial uniform and dropped him in the EU, Thrawn is what you get. Aside from his intuitive talent with art and his occasional execution of an underling to remind you he's the villain of the story, he really is pretty much on par with the military professionals I have known. It's not that he's a genius; it's just that everyone else in the Star Wars universe is just so bad at their jobs. Whether it's leading men, or military tactics, Thrawn is almost a dash of realism in an otherwise fantastical universe.

    Because of this, I have no reason to complain that he warns against underestimating primitives. Any professional officer in the real world knows about Isandhlwana or the battle of Mogadishu. Modern officers know well that first world armies have had very -- shall we say mixed? -- records in third world military interventions. That's why professional essays such as Bashing the laser rangefinder with a rock, reflecting on the Russian experience in Afghanistan, crop up after every one of these miserable fiascos.

    For that matter, there are whole branches of modern militaries devoted to nothing but training, organizing, and equipping third-world militias to fight conventional armies.

    So, yes. Speaking from history, I can well imagine politicians from large empires brushing off indigenous populations as of being no great concern, and then having a seasoned officer who had occasion to encounter "primitive" troops, for or against , point out very tactfully that they may be more capable than expected. It happened in pretty much every one of the "dirty little wars" of the 19th century, after all.

    Now, Thrawn does not have experience of warfare on earth. But I don't think it's any stretch of the imagination to conclude he must have had similar experience at some point, either for the Chiss Ascendancy or for the Empire. ]
    You know who else is a professional military officer? Everyone else in the Imperial Navy. If your interpretation is correct, to have this one guy with basic competence being so special is a horrific failure of storytelling, and it's a failing of Timothy Zahn, not George Lucas/Laurence Kasdan et al. 'Everyone else but my character is a screwup' is terrible storytelling, especially as you can only arrive at that conclusion with a very specific interpretation of the films that assumes idiocy instead of 'these characters understand their technology better than I do'.

    I'm not saying this because I'm a movie purist, by the way. It's just bad writing (if that's the conclusion we're meant to draw), especially in a shared universe.



    It's too close to be in geostationary orbit, yet it always remains above the same spot on the planet. This would suggest it's being suspended - like that "Star Destroyer above Jedha with engines apparently switched off" scene - it's probably something like repulsorlifts.
    Or its maintaining its position itself.

    CH4:

    The Chimaera goes to Wayland, having put together a portable cage thing for the ysalimiri (I'm probably going to misspell that if I have to keep typing it, just forewarning you). Apparently they're lizards 'fur-scaled' and salamanderlike'

    Pellaeon, Thrawn, and Rukh descend onto this planet to find a guardian set by the Emperor. Thrawn continues his 'contradict everything my subordinate says' management style, and takes out a megaphone to threaten everyone, and is promptly shot. His bodyguard levels a building in response.

    A nearby old man takes exception to this and agrees to take him to the Guardian, who is living in the palace rather than the mountain he guards. He takes them to a tomb, and then opens negotiations with Force Lightning.

    The ysalimiri blocks, which confuses the nice old man. He wants to know how it was done. A guard fires a crossbow at Thrawn's party, and Ruhk tries to fire back, but the old man stops both. He introduces himself as Joruus C'Baoth, which is another name I've heard, but know nothing else about.

    They talk. Thrawn wants some of the Emperor's tech from inside the mountain, cloaking tech and another 'trivial' piece of technology that I'm sure is anything but. Joruus basically says knock yourself out, but Thrawn also wants Joruus himself on board, which is a harder sell. He goes on to take another shot at the battle of Endor by calling out a weakness that this book appears to have just made up, that the only thing holding the fleet together was the Emperor's will. He wants Joruus help with co ordination on a smaller scale, but has trouble finding anything Joruus wants. Eventually, he realises that having Jedi subordinates is the bait that works, and says he can have Luke and Leia kidnapped, which Joruus agrees to.

    They find the cloaking device and 'trivial' technology and leave.

    Pellaeon has doubts about taking on a crazed clone Jedi on staff, but as usual no one listens to him. Thrawn goes to activate 'Team 8' which sounds like a Noghri team of commandos to kidnap the Skywalkers.

    The Good: Joruus, who presents Thrawn's first challenge, making him work for his goals. The whole confrontation is nice.

    The Questionable: The idea that the Imperial fleet is held together solely by the Emperor's will. This isn't even something that was in the movies, this book just made it up so it could take another shot at it.

    The ysalamiri also seem out of place, why does no one know about this? They should be worth billions on the black market, bounty hunters would build careers looking for the things, even if I can see why the Empire might discourage trade.

    So far, they haven't even seemed necessary, 'if anything happens to me, my destroyer levels this city' would have worked to give Joruus pause long enough to lay out his offer.

    A very good confrontation, true, but with some questionable parts to it.

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    Default Re: Reading Heir to the Empire

    I think the Emperor controlling everyone is akin to KOTOR's Battle Meditation. And its made a point that the Imperial Navy collapsed because thr Emperor overused it, substituong his force powers to what should be genuine military professionalism.

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    Default Re: Reading Heir to the Empire

    I think parts of HotE are less intended by Zahn as cheap potshots at the OT to inflate his antagonist's resume, and more as a sort of official Fix Fic to "explain" things he felt were unacceptable failures of logic in a supposedly professional military organization like the Empire. Stuff like the Emperor's Battle Meditation or the Ewoks. "It's just a story" wasn't good enough for him, so he decided to use his authorial ability to canonize 'explanations' for Plot Holes that bothered him with the narrative.
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    I don't think anyone would want those pancakes even if you paid them to eat them.

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    Default Re: Reading Heir to the Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    I think parts of HotE are less intended by Zahn as cheap potshots at the OT to inflate his antagonist's resume, and more as a sort of official Fix Fic to "explain" things he felt were unacceptable failures of logic in a supposedly professional military organization like the Empire. Stuff like the Emperor's Battle Meditation or the Ewoks. "It's just a story" wasn't good enough for him, so he decided to use his authorial ability to canonize 'explanations' for Plot Holes that bothered him with the narrative.
    I concur.

    Come to that, "it's just a story" isn't good enough for me, either.

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    Default Re: Reading Heir to the Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    The ysalamiri also seem out of place, why does no one know about this? They should be worth billions on the black market, bounty hunters would build careers looking for the things, even if I can see why the Empire might discourage trade.
    Worth billions to who? Jedi are incredibly rare, and ysalamiri are useless against anyone but Force users. The target market would be people who expect to be dealing - personally - with hostile Jedi at close range. That's a rather tiny market, and the ones who have billions to spare on anti-Jedi defenses probably have many billions more worth of more conventional forces that are a lot more general purpose. You'd have to not only find a person with Jedi enemies who is also extremely rich, but also convince him that all of his other security measures are inadequate against Jedi.

    Convincing someone that one or two individuals, however special and elite, are more than their existing large, highly effective, and expensive security forces can handle is a hard sell. The only argument with any meaningful track record of success for convincing people of that is seeing it actually demonstrated, and anyone targeted by such a demonstration generally ceases to be a viable customer in very short order.

    Also, how would people learn of the anti-Force ability of ysalamiri? Only a Jedi or other Force user would usually be likely to notice, and Force users of all kinds would automatically have motivation to keep the information secret. I don't know how Thrawn found out about it, but it being obscure and secret information makes sense to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    So far, they haven't even seemed necessary, 'if anything happens to me, my destroyer levels this city' would have worked to give Joruus pause long enough to lay out his offer.
    So far, perhaps.
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    Default Re: Reading Heir to the Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    The Questionable: The idea that the Imperial fleet is held together solely by the Emperor's will. This isn't even something that was in the movies, this book just made it up so it could take another shot at it.
    There was a nod to this in the RoTJ novelization, long before Heir to the Empire came out:

    For the first time, the Death Star rocked. The collision with the exploding Destroyer was only the beginning, leading to various systems breakdowns, which led to reactor meltdowns, which led to personnel panic, abandonment of posts, further malfunctions, and general chaos.

    Smoke was everywhere, substantial rumblings came from all directions at once, people were running and shouting. Electrical fires, steam explosions, cabin depressurizations, disruption of chain-of-command. Added to this, the continued bombardments by Rebel cruisers—smelling fear in the enemy—merely heightened the sense of hysteria that was already pervasive.

    For the Emperor was dead. The central, powerful evil that had been the cohesive force to the Empire was gone; and when the dark side was this diffused, this nondirected—this was simply where it led.

    Confusion.
    Desperation.
    Damp fear.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2017-10-07 at 04:41 PM.
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    Default Re: Reading Heir to the Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    There was a nod to this in the RoTJ novelization, long before Heir to the Empire came out:
    And given Zhan is pretty thorough, I would even hazard that may be the very thing that gave him the idea, which would eventually lead us to Battle Meditation in KotR 1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander View Post
    And given Zhan is pretty thorough, I would even hazard that may be the very thing that gave him the idea, which would eventually lead us to Battle Meditation in KotR 1.
    Wookieepedia is in error when it says KOTOR 1 was the first source to use the phrase "battle meditation" (in 2003):

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_meditation

    the narration referred to Nomi Sunrider's power by the name of "Jedi battle meditation" before that - 1994, Tales of the Jedi..


    At the time, it was portrayed as something new, and initially, unique to her, among Jedi. However, the, chronologically earlier but later written (1997) The Fall of the Sith Empire, also uses the term. It may be a "lost art" that Nomi has rediscovered.
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    Default Re: Reading Heir to the Empire

    It's also going to be worth noting that other than characters a lot of stuff that seems unique to the Thrawn trilogy wasn't. Before he wrote the book he read through everything created for the official Star Wars d6 game. Everything. And marked all the technology he thought was cool. And in the books he uses them.

  24. - Top - End - #54
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    Yup. In fact, according to some interviews with him, as I recall, Lucasfilm sent him a big batch of SW d6 West End Games material, specifically for that very purpose.
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    Default Re: Reading Heir to the Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Wookieepedia is in error when it says KOTOR 1 was the first source to use the phrase "battle meditation" (in 2003):

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_meditation

    the narration referred to Nomi Sunrider's power by the name of "Jedi battle meditation" before that - 1994, Tales of the Jedi..


    At the time, it was portrayed as something new, and initially, unique to her, among Jedi. However, the, chronologically earlier but later written (1997) The Fall of the Sith Empire, also uses the term. It may be a "lost art" that Nomi has rediscovered.
    Bastilla was originally to be Nomi's daughter. They dropped that but kept the Battle Meditation.
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  26. - Top - End - #56
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    I think parts of HotE are less intended by Zahn as cheap potshots at the OT to inflate his antagonist's resume, and more as a sort of official Fix Fic to "explain" things he felt were unacceptable failures of logic in a supposedly professional military organization like the Empire. Stuff like the Emperor's Battle Meditation or the Ewoks. "It's just a story" wasn't good enough for him, so he decided to use his authorial ability to canonize 'explanations' for Plot Holes that bothered him with the narrative.]
    If that was the intent, so far he's made things worse instead of fixing the holes. Canonising 'everyone is idiots except my character' is a poor way to cover alleged plot holes in a shared universe, and so far not much in the battle of Endor needed to be explained by anything else other than 'losing both our flagships was disruptive.' And fixing the holes doesn't always have to be framed as 'if only this guy was there, none of that would have happened.'

    Worth billions to who?]
    Jabba? Mandalor? Anyone that doesn't like the Jedi and has reason to feel threatened by them? I get that they'd be rare, but Thrawn and Karrde just happening to know about all this at this specific moment seems a little convenient, and there are a lot of warlords etc in the galaxy with the resources to find one of these things just in case.

    CH5:

    Han gives a report to Admiral Ackbar and a Bothan named Fey'lya about his smuggler recruiting progress. Unsurprisingly, they're not quick to trust, and there's a small power struggle between Ackbar and the Bothan. Mon Mothma breaks up the clash, and reminds Leia about a diplomatic mission to the Bimms of Bimmisaari. Luke is coming for PR purposes, and Han gripes a bit about how much of Leia's time is taken up by diplomacy rather than Force training.

    Since that was so short, I might as well keep going.

    CH6:

    Han, Leia, Luke, Chewbacca and the droids land on Bimmisaari. Chewbacca stays on board, and Han places a comlink on his collar so her can summon backup if something goes wrong.

    Threepio is busy translating and generally being useful, and the bimms don't allow Han to bring his blaster. They either don't notice Luke's lightsabre or have too much respect for Jedi to bring it up, so he keeps it.

    There's a parade, but when they arrive for negotiations, it is discovered that the Bimms Chief negotiator is suddenly ill. The Bimms offer a tour of the marketplace for her and something for Luke and Han in the Tower of Law. Leia becomes suspicious and refuses to split the gang. Luke doesn't sense any unusual duplicity, so she accepts.

    Han and Leia tour the marketplace, and their guide suddenly disappears, before being confronted by three short aliens with 'steel grey skin, large dark eyes, and protruding jaws'. I'm guessing this is Team 8? They're holding non lethal weapons called stokhli sticks. Han questions calling in Luke, and Leia responds that they've got him too.

    Not really much to comment on here, the normal political rivalry in the New Republic, and then an ambush from the Bimms. It's nice to see C3PO being so useful.

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    Default Re: Reading Heir to the Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    Jabba? Mandalor? Anyone that doesn't like the Jedi and has reason to feel threatened by them? I get that they'd be rare, but Thrawn and Karrde just happening to know about all this at this specific moment seems a little convenient, and there are a lot of warlords etc in the galaxy with the resources to find one of these things just in case.
    Mandalore likely wouldn't be interested; their warriors typically took on Jedi at full power to test themselves. As for others like Janna or other Butts that may have been interested, by now they've surely mentioned the whole "security through obscurity" bit. You may not like it, but it's not terribly difficult with billions of planets for things to be on, and one of the most prominent groups in the Republic wanting to keep a tight lid on it would likely be able to.

    As for Karrde, he's literally based on the planet. Whenever Thrawn figured it out, he would be there. And
    Spoiler: I'm pretty sure they've spelled it out by now, but just in case they haven't...
    Show
    Karrde is one of the very, very few in the Galaxy with the resources to find one of these things. Most warlords cant, or don't know the relevance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    It would be nice to just change the title of this thread to be "stuff about Jedi"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    If that was the intent, so far he's made things worse instead of fixing the holes. Canonising 'everyone is idiots except my character' is a poor way to cover alleged plot holes in a shared universe,
    Its not a "everone else are idiots", it was more of a "everyone else was made dependant on a a supernatural force without their consent". I think this is more about the shortcomings of dependence of supernatural powers over the professionalism and skill of your underlings.

    The point is made that the Imperial Navy was too good a navy and thus shouldnt have lost Endor. But they did because the Emperor, in his arrogance, made himself the Keystone of the entire armed forces.

    And the Imperial.Navy never even realized it.

  29. - Top - End - #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post
    Its not a "everone else are idiots", it was more of a "everyone else was made dependant on a a supernatural force without their consent". I think this is more about the shortcomings of dependence of supernatural powers over the professionalism and skill of your underlings.

    The point is made that the Imperial Navy was too good a navy and thus shouldnt have lost Endor. But they did because the Emperor, in his arrogance, made himself the Keystone of the entire armed forces.

    And the Imperial.Navy never even realized it.
    That's the Watsonian logic. I think Sapphire Guard is arguing against the Doylesian logic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel, on quest rewards
    "Is a stack of ten pancakes too many pancakes to give to the party, even if most of them fell on the floor and one or two were stepped on? I wanted to give my party pancakes as a reward but I'm unsure if it's too much. The pancakes are also laced with blowfish poison so the party would have to get an antitoxin before they could eat the ones which weren't pulverized by shoes."

    I don't think anyone would want those pancakes even if you paid them to eat them.

  30. - Top - End - #60
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    Default Re: Reading Heir to the Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    That's the Watsonian logic. I think Sapphire Guard is arguing against the Doylesian logic.
    I think its still stand. I mean, "everyone is an idiot but his character" is not something Zhan invented. Its something he saw in RotJ. He saw the Imperial Navy as a group of bumbling military leaders who couldnt take on a vastly inferior Rebel fleet.

    He thus made an in-universe reason for it. And this ALSO doubled as a reason as to why the Imperial Navy is still something to be feared and respected in his novels, and all novels that occurer after. Otherwise, why should the New Republic ever worry about an Imperial Fleet they beat when it was outgunning them 5 to 1?

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