Reading Heir to the Empire

[pendell]

And to take Keltest's example further, it doesn't take a spy. One moment of incompetence can change the course of a war if it is significant enough.

The Confederacy always knew it would eventually lose a prolonged war. The fact that it went four years was not in the South's interest. A lot of historical debate is attached to Lee's Special orders 191, which called for a quick strike invasion of the north. Since a copy was left behind and recovered by the Union, the Union was able to plan the Battle of Antietam, which is considered a major turning point of the war (if not THE turning point). Knowing Lee had split his forces allowed the Union to plan accordingly.

But the loss is due to the incompetence of the person who lost their copy. There's a fair amount of evidence that the attack would have worked, because no one thought Lee would split his forces like this and McClellan was notoriously over-cautious. Would it have won the war by itself? Maybe not, but it would have given the South a solid foothold in North territory, further demoralized the north (which, prior to this victory was already pretty seriously demoralized), and added further incentive for other powers ((France, Britain) to join in with the South.

Your point is well-taken, but even so: Part of military genius is you have to recognize that most of the officers and soldiers fighting for you are NOT military geniuses.

A real military genius doesn't produce a plan that works well on a map; a real genius has to recognize that the plan will be carried out by ordinary people, 90 percent of whom are categorized as 'lazy' and 'stupid' . A plan that will survive friction and missed communications and blunders treachery and incorrect maps which show a stream when, in fact, it's a raging flood. Not to mention an enemy who is utterly determined to ruin your plans at every possible turn.

It requires a great deal of flexibility; the ability to recognize things that are going wrong and then compensate for them quickly and accurately. Not only at the top, but down at the junior officer level. You have to inculcate into the lazy and stupids the ability to recognize when the situation has gone wrong and then fix it all on their own.

I suspect the issue with Lee was that he knew defeat was certain if the south merely maintained the offensive; so both Antietam and Gettysburg represented high-risk rolls of the dice in which, if he was very lucky, he could pull a victory out of his hat and end the war in a peace.

He wasn't lucky.

At any rate, this gets me back to Thrawn; however brilliant he was, he's still only one being. He may make plans but he's utterly dependent on his subordinates to carry them out. That's why a lot of his work isn't so much brilliant strategy as it is weeding out people like Pieters and promoting people like Ensign/now-Lieutenant Mithel.

And when he does this he is having to undo decades worth of work by Vader and the Emperor whose primary achievement was to create a collection of fearful hangers-on who were no doubt terrified of ever making a mistake , and therefore never try anything new or innovative lest they get a visit from Vader.

Maybe he could have turned it around with a few decades of his own to put his stamp on the Imperial military, but not in the time he's so far had, I think.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Sapphire Guard]

CH11: Han catches up with Col Bremen to try get Jade released. He doesn't succeed. Luke passes by as the argument ends, and they talk about Leia and Mara. Luke feels a disturbance in the Force.

The G-2RD guard droid is making noise outside her door, and Mara is sick of interrogation. They discuss debts and brother killing, and Mara's motivations, before Leia brings up Thrawn's clones.

Mara, as it happens, knows where Wayland is, and the twenty thousand clones therein.

Council of war happens in Leia's office which they know Delta Source can't access. I've forgotten why. They're skeptical, but Luke is following the will of the Force.

So ,next is order of battle. They have to bring Mara, Luke, and Han. Chewbacca has split loyalties, but Leia suggests an unstated compromise...my guess is Noghri.

Huh...okay. It would have made sense for Thrawn to have moved some cylinders off Wayland rather than have everything in one place. And his source will notice Mara's disappearance and probably guess why.

Leia should probably have actual guards on her door.

I'd kind of prefer if they found out about Wayland through investigation, rather than it just falling into their lap.

Edit: Why were 20,000 cloning cylinders regarded as 'small, almost trivial' technology back in Heir?

All genius aside, Thrawn has a huge tech advantage.

[Peelee]

Your point is well-taken, but even so: Part of military genius is you have to recognize that most of the officers and soldiers fighting for you are NOT military geniuses.

A real military genius doesn't produce a plan that works well on a map; a real genius has to recognize that the plan will be carried out by ordinary people, 90 percent of whom are categorized as 'lazy' and 'stupid' . A plan that will survive friction and missed communications and blunders treachery and incorrect maps which show a stream when, in fact, it's a raging flood. Not to mention an enemy who is utterly determined to ruin your plans at every possible turn.

It requires a great deal of flexibility; the ability to recognize things that are going wrong and then compensate for them quickly and accurately. Not only at the top, but down at the junior officer level. You have to inculcate into the lazy and stupids the ability to recognize when the situation has gone wrong and then fix it all on their own.

I suspect the issue with Lee was that he knew defeat was certain if the south merely maintained the offensive; so both Antietam and Gettysburg represented high-risk rolls of the dice in which, if he was very lucky, he could pull a victory out of his hat and end the war in a peace.

He wasn't lucky.

At any rate, this gets me back to Thrawn; however brilliant he was, he's still only one being. He may make plans but he's utterly dependent on his subordinates to carry them out. That's why a lot of his work isn't so much brilliant strategy as it is weeding out people like Pieters and promoting people like Ensign/now-Lieutenant Mithel.

And when he does this he is having to undo decades worth of work by Vader and the Emperor whose primary achievement was to create a collection of fearful hangers-on who were no doubt terrified of ever making a mistake , and therefore never try anything new or innovative lest they get a visit from Vader.

Maybe he could have turned it around with a few decades of his own to put his stamp on the Imperial military, but not in the time he's so far had, I think.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Or like a year or two with his thousands of cloning cylinders and constantly picking the brightest and best to clone. Thrawn did appreciate efficiency, after all.

[Fyraltari]

Edit: Why were 20,000 cloning cylinders regarded as 'small, almost trivial' technology back in Heir?

Thrawn was lying to C'Baoth.

Also:

Spoiler: Don't think this has been revealed yet

Show

The cylinders are only able to function at the rate Thrawn is using thanks to his ysalamiri. Without them the clones would need years inside to avoid being tark-raving mad which is an issue when you need an army now.

[Blackhawk748]

Edit: Why were 20,000 cloning cylinders regarded as 'small, almost trivial' technology back in Heir?

Simply because a clone should take 2-3 years to make, so you can only make 20k clones every 2 years or so. All in all thats a very small number of troops. For comparison it would be like the South having been able to suddenly pull 300 extra men out of their back pocket. Sure it would have been helpful, but its such a small number in the grand scheme.

[Douglas]

Edit: Why were 20,000 cloning cylinders regarded as 'small, almost trivial' technology back in Heir?

All genius aside, Thrawn has a huge tech advantage.

Wasn't that how Thrawn described them to C'baoth, or something? I think he was trying to downplay their importance so C'baoth wouldn't realize how strong a negotiation point any threat to them could be.

[pendell]

Wasn't that how Thrawn described them to C'baoth, or something? I think he was trying to downplay their importance so C'baoth wouldn't realize how strong a negotiation point any threat to them could be.

It was. Thrawn was downplaying a technology which was, in fact, critical to his plans in a way that a cloaking device was not. It was misdirection.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Cikomyr]

By the way. Steel yourself against another scene of "Thrawn is better than Vader/Old Empire", as you mentioned they irk you a lot.

Although its one that i like a lot in the overall scheme of things.

[Kish]

It was. Thrawn was downplaying a technology which was, in fact, critical to his plans in a way that a cloaking device was not. It was misdirection.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Indeed, Zahn said when interviewed on Heir to the Empire that Thrawn's plan hinged on two things, one that the readers would learn about in the middle of the first book (the ysalamiri), and one that they would learn about at the end of the second book (the cloning cylinders).

[Cikomyr]

Spoiler

Show

indeed, zahn said when interviewed on heir to the empire that thrawn's plan hinged on two things, one that the readers would learn about in the middle of the first book (the ysalamiri), and one that they would learn about at the end of the second book (the cloning cylinders)

.

spoilers dude

[Keltest]

spoilers dude

Were already on the third book. We know what his plan is already.

[Kish]

With an apostrophe, but yes, that. Where's the spoiler supposed to be? Sapphire Guard is in book three.

[Peelee]

With an apostrophe, but yes, that. Where's the spoiler supposed to be? Sapphire Guard is in book three.

Spoiler

Show

My best guess is he's referencing the importance of the ysalimiri combined with the cloning chambers to pop the clones out so quickly, but there's such extensive use of those creatures already that i don't think Sapphire Guard would put it together. And it's not like that's a thing that most readers could guess to begin with.

So yeah, saying that needed spoilers was a bit much, I think.

[Keltest]

Spoiler

Show

My best guess is he's referencing the importance of the ysalimiri combined with the cloning chambers to pop the clones out so quickly, but there's such extensive use of those creatures already that i don't think Sapphire Guard would put it together. And it's not like that's a thing that most readers could guess to begin with.

So yeah, saying that needed spoilers was a bit much, I think.

Spoiler

Show

To say nothing of the fact that, even though he doesn't know the full reason both elements are needed yet, each of them has been demonstrated as important in their own right even without showing the final product when you combine them.

[Peelee]

Spoiler

Show

To say nothing of the fact that, even though he doesn't know the full reason both elements are needed yet, each of them has been demonstrated as important in their own right even without showing the final product when you combine them.

That's what I meant, but yeah, you put it better.

[Sapphire Guard]

Thrawn was lying to C'Baoth.

ll.

Pellaeon agreed, though? 20,000 functioning clone manufacturing chambers isn't easy to pass off as 'trivial'.

One thing about Thrawn's command style is that it has made Pellaeon reluctant to venture opinions. He now only offers opinions when asked, and his internal monologue says things like 'why do I even bother second guessing him, he's thought of it.'

20,000 soldiers might not be war winning, but it's the crew of 10 Dreadnoughts IIRC, which is substantial in any one engagement, especially for free. But it's not something I'm overly bothered by.

By the way. Steel yourself against another scene of "Thrawn is better than Vader/Old Empire", as you mentioned they irk you a lot.

Basically a given for any Thrawn bridge scene. But thanks.

CH12:

Karrde's crew is coming up on the Bilbringi system. They' not used to the hard hours of smuggling anymore.

Aves wonders if the Clones were a setup, and Karrde agrees. He still thinks Ferrier is a plant, but no one has talked about it because spies are a thing. They're in the system as invited by another smuggler, entirely coincidentally of course, Imperial Shipyards are nearby.

Control spots them and sends an inspection team, but then an ISD under construction blows up. The saboteurs try to escape, but aren't going to make it. Karrde is about to help when two Corellian gunships show up as backup. He knows there's no going back from this, that Thrawn will take revenge in due course.

Chimaera bridge scene. Thrawn lightly punishes the Commander of the shipyard, because he's good enough when not complacent. He tells Pelleaon that the smugglers will be punished, but they don't have the manpower at present.

C'Baoth really politely interrupts ("Grand Admiral Thrawn!" rather than "Thrawn!" or "You!") to complain about the failed Commando raid. He takes control of the ISD, Thrawn talks him down, then after he leaves makes an ominous comment suggesting Thrawn will be dealt with when he outlasts his usefulness. We've had very similar scenes several times before, they're just gradually scaling up.

Oh, and they're about to lay siege to Coruscant and do something with asteroids. Not enough information for me to speculate, though.

[pendell]

C'Baoth really politely interrupts ("Grand Admiral Thrawn!" rather than "Thrawn!" or "You!") to complain about the failed Commando raid. He takes control of the ISD, Thrawn talks him down, then after he leaves makes an ominous comment suggesting Thrawn will be dealt with when he outlasts his usefulness. We've had very similar scenes several times before, they're just gradually scaling up.

This is interpreted otherwise in the comic book version of the story. C'baoth shouts "GRAND ADMIRAL THRAWN!" across the bridge so loudly that Pellaeon flinches.

... which is a direct call back to almost the first line in this trilogy, when Pellaeon rebukes a crewer for shouting on the bridge. "This is not a cattle barge". He said.

C'boath is completely ignoring that. He's neither showing Thrawn nor the Imperial navy any respect at all.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Sapphire Guard]

Oh, I know, it was just oddly polite of him to use the full title in his enraged scream, as though it might be Navigation Officer Thrawn he wanted to talk to.

CH13: The Noghri arrive in Coruscant dressed as Jawas, to take up Leia's security detail. Han isn't comfortable with this, but doesn't have much choice. Since they're breaking and entering anyway, they might as well go for Mara now.

Mara has her usual nightmare, which is interrupted by noise from outside her door. She throws her datapad at Luke, who stops it with the Force. They leave. Banter ensues.

Chimaera bridge. The empire is gearing up for a raid on Coruscant, and Pellaeon is worried C'Baoth will disrupt their tactics.

C'Baoth appears, and requests a ship to Wayland, refusing to explain why. Thrawn arrives and agrees, putting a company of troops aboard in case C'Baoth has truly sensed something, as well as the cloning templates due to move anyway.

Pellaeon is unhappy about C'Baoth being in Wayland, but can't remember why as the memory of C'Baoth's secret project was suppressed.

Thrawn notes that one day he'll turn Delta Source over to Pellaeon. Huh. Nice to see a hint of respect for his long suffering subordinate. But that day has not yet come.

This day, they're going to Coruscant.

I'm not fond of enlisting the Noghri here. They're not just endangering their lives, families, or clans by doing this. They're risking their world. Honoghr is deep in Imperial Space, the New Republic couldn't defend it even if they wanted to and had a fleet to spare. If they get seen... Surely there's at least one capable security team somewhere in the republic, or some Wookiees with free time. I mean, actual guards on her door would have made a difference to the last attempt.

ch14:This time Leia is having the nightmare, about Mara, Luke, and probably C'Baoth. The alarms go off as Coruscant is under attack. She gets up and Winter and the Noghri takes care of the children. The turbolifts are full, but Leia gets priority and two angry Jawas burst on as well.

Ten Interdictors and Eight Dreadnoughts are above Coruscant, which is not great news. Ghent is nearby, having cut an entry code into the war room a while back on a slow day to pass the time, and Leia explains what's going on. She decides to enlist him in decrypting.

She returns to the War Room, discovering to her horror that Drayson is in charge. She calls him competent, but immediately is able to call out a mistake. She sets about finding someone else to put in charge, and sees Sena, adviser to Bel Ibliss. Ibliss himself is in the observation gallery (do war rooms normally have observation galleries?)

She gets to him and he immediately calls in a threat no one else has spotted. Unfortunately, Leia is actually put on hold and the chance passes. Ibliss explains that he can't just walk down and usurp command without authority, that will just end up with factions and chaos. Fortunately, Mon Mothma has come to the same conclusion and asks him to take command.

Thrawn immediately identifies the change in commander, and unveils his secret weapon.

Groundside, the techs identify the launching tractor beam,and Ibliss identifies that a Cloaked ship has been launched. An Escort Frigate goes down to an impact, and Ibliss starts to suspect differently. He orders Ion cannon fire.

Thrawn allows them to see the cloaking shielded asteroid fail before destroying it with turbolasers. He's been launching 22 cloaked asteroids, but pretending to do more, in order to keep the Coruscant military grounded, because they can't launch ships without clearing the cloaked asteroids, and can't know how many there are.

Groundside, the crews discuss the problems in clearing the asteroids. Maximum is 287, but they have no way to know how many there are in orbit. Cloaking is too expensive for that to be the real number. Ibliss asks Drayson a technical question because he knows ISDs, probably also for political reasons. Coruscant can still direct the war, but their fleet is grounded for the moment. Nice trick, I have to admit.

Col Bremen turns up to announce that Mara Jade has escaped. Leia comes clean to prevent Delta Source hearing about it, so they agree to cover up the escape.

On the way out, Leia bumps into Ghent, who hands her the encrypt codes for Delta Source. Poor Pellaeon. He was just presented with the prospect of having access to it, and now it's decrypted. Absent any better candidates, Winter is still my best guess for Delta Source, but there are also a couple of problems with that theory. We'll see.

[The Glyphstone]

The true identity of Delta Source will probably be the biggest WTF moment you have in the series.

[Peelee]

The true identity of Delta Source will probably be the biggest WTF moment you have in the series.

I've talked a lot about how much I love the seige of Coruscant, since they don't even know when they'll be done clearing the asteroids and can effectively keep themselves under seige for even longer, but Delta Source was absolutely a brilliant touch, and knowing it all when re-reading gave the whole series a more sinister vibe, IMO.

Also, just had a thought. We it ever explained how the New Republic knew of the code name Delta Source?

[Cikomyr]

I've talked a lot about how much I love the seige of Coruscant, since they don't even know when they'll be done clearing the asteroids and can effectively keep themselves under seige for even longer, but Delta Source was absolutely a brilliant touch, and knowing it all when re-reading gave the whole series a more sinister vibe, IMO.

Also, just had a thought. We it ever explained how the New Republic one of the code name Delta Source?

....what? o_0

[Peelee]

....what? o_0

Fixed. Blaming my phone.

[Cikomyr]

Also, just had a thought. We it ever explained how the New Republic knew of the code name Delta Source?

Bel Ibliss in Book 2 uses security leaks on Coruscant as justification for his non-joining the Alliance, mentioning the "Delta Source" as a current example of high-level leak.

[Douglas]

Nice trick, I have to admit.

It is creative and makes for a good "genius admiral" trick in the story, but I'm a bit skeptical of the realism of it. Would even the full 287 asteroids really be that big a danger to the entire orbital space of a planet? Space is big.

Scifi writers having no sense of scale is very old news, though, so it doesn't bother me much.

[DataNinja]

It is creative and makes for a good "genius admiral" trick in the story, but I'm a bit skeptical of the realism of it. Would even the full 287 asteroids really be that big a danger to the entire orbital space of a planet? Space is big.

Scifi writers having no sense of scale is very old news, though, so it doesn't bother me much.

I believe they address this later on, in that it's the perception that matters, even if technically it probably wouldn't be a huge risk to the grand scheme of things. (Still a lot of people dead if one hits anything, but not to a catastrophic level. But even letting one hit the capital would be a PR nightmare.)

[Drascin]

Yeah, the issue is not the risk to ships leaving. The issue is that asteroids tend to lose to gravity, and with Coruscant being stupidly densely populated, a single cloaked asteroid falling could result in half a billion dead people minimum. And the New Republic is not the Empire to go "meh, whatever, there's a lot more people where those came from".

[Aeson]

ll.

Pellaeon agreed, though? 20,000 functioning clone manufacturing chambers isn't easy to pass off as 'trivial'.

One thing about Thrawn's command style is that it has made Pellaeon reluctant to venture opinions. He now only offers opinions when asked, and his internal monologue says things like 'why do I even bother second guessing him, he's thought of it.'

20,000 soldiers might not be war winning, but it's the crew of 10 Dreadnoughts IIRC, which is substantial in any one engagement, especially for free. But it's not something I'm overly bothered by.

Realistically speaking, the output of the Wayland cloning facility should be at best a trivial rounding error on the recruitment figures, or at least the recruitment potential, of any faction with a population base reasonable for a galaxy-level power in a setting in which a galaxy-level civilization has existed for a couple tens of thousands of years (literal interpretation of Obi-Wan's thousand generations statement, but even the Prequel Trilogy's thousand years is enough for significant populations to be established on a great many worlds). 20,000 clones every ten days is about 730,000 clones every year. Consider that the USA, with a population of about 130 million, expanded its armed forces from about 330 thousand in 1939 to about 12 million in 1945 - an intake of roughly 50,000 every ten days or about 2 million per year, neglecting losses. Consider that even in early-EU material such as the Thrawn trilogy Coruscant is already a city-planet which could reasonably be assumed to have a population in the hundreds of billions even if it's not in the trillions, that Coruscant is just one of millions of inhabited worlds, and that Coruscant will be established as just one of many ecumenopoleis if it hadn't already been at the time Zahn wrote the trilogy. The Wayland cloning facility itself is insignificant, even if only the best of the best are being cloned - Wayland on its own simply cannot produce a significant number of clones to matter to a military force on a remotely rational scale for a galaxy-level power in a setting in which a galaxy-level civilization has existed for a couple tens of thousands of years.

Realistically speaking, the threat that the Wayland facility poses should not be its clone output - which is useful, but not of any real significance - but rather the potential that it represents. Who's to say that the Empire cannot establish thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, even millions of such facilities now that they've worked out the kinks at the Wayland facility? 20,000 clones every ten days from one facility isn't a problem. 20,000 clones every ten days from each of several thousand facilities, though? That's more of an issue.

Of course, if I recall correctly that's not how it's treated in the books.

[deuterio12]

20,000 clones every ten days is about 730,000 clones every year. Consider that the USA, with a population of about 130 million, expanded its armed forces from about 330 thousand in 1939 to about 12 million in 1945 - an intake of roughly 50,000 every ten days or about 2 million per year, neglecting losses.

But that was with basically full mobilization. They couldn't keep it going for more than a few years. Nowadays the USA has a much bigger population, but the army is only about 1 000 000 big.

Consider that even in early-EU material such as the Thrawn trilogy Coruscant is already a city-planet which could reasonably be assumed to have a population in the hundreds of billions even if it's not in the trillions, that Coruscant is just one of millions of inhabited worlds, and that Coruscant will be established as just one of many ecumenopoleis if it hadn't already been at the time Zahn wrote the trilogy. The Wayland cloning facility itself is insignificant, even if only the best of the best are being cloned - Wayland on its own simply cannot produce a significant number of clones to matter to a military force on a remotely rational scale for a galaxy-level power in a setting in which a galaxy-level civilization has existed for a couple tens of thousands of years.

Or it may just be the writers having no sense of scale, wouldn'be the first time in this or other settings.

Although give me 20 000 elite troops over 2 million backwater militia any day of the week, in particular in an high sci-fi setting with inter-planetary warfare. Because all those soldiers need space ships to carry them and to eat and to poop and to breathe. You can't just march them to another planet and no dirt-cheap sea transports either.

Plus remember the clone war cartoons, mass-produced star wars clones are seriously badass.

[Peelee]

It is creative and makes for a good "genius admiral" trick in the story, but I'm a bit skeptical of the realism of it. Would even the full 287 asteroids really be that big a danger to the entire orbital space of a planet? Space is big.

Scifi writers having no sense of scale is very old news, though, so it doesn't bother me much.

I thought they had to keep the shields up not for the ships, but for the planet. The whole planet is like ten Manhattans stacked on top of each other; an asteroid hitting would kill millions. Taking the shields down, even to let ships through, also gives a chance for the asteroids to get in. It's a very small chance, but it's worse in that they don't know where they are. And I'd bet no politician wants to be the one who says "eh, let ships through sometimes" and be the one holding the bag if anything happened.

It's also been a while since I read it, so I could be wrong there. And it still has the scale problem, but an accurate sense of scale rarely makes for a good movie.

[Cikomyr]

Realistically speaking, the output of the Wayland cloning facility should be at best a trivial rounding error on the recruitment figures, or at least the recruitment potential, of any faction with a population base reasonable for a galaxy-level power in a setting in which a galaxy-level civilization has existed for a couple tens of thousands of years (literal interpretation of Obi-Wan's thousand generations statement, but even the Prequel Trilogy's thousand years is enough for significant populations to be established on a great many worlds). 20,000 clones every ten days is about 730,000 clones every year. Consider that the USA, with a population of about 130 million, expanded its armed forces from about 330 thousand in 1939 to about 12 million in 1945 - an intake of roughly 50,000 every ten days or about 2 million per year, neglecting losses. Consider that even in early-EU material such as the Thrawn trilogy Coruscant is already a city-planet which could reasonably be assumed to have a population in the hundreds of billions even if it's not in the trillions, that Coruscant is just one of millions of inhabited worlds, and that Coruscant will be established as just one of many ecumenopoleis if it hadn't already been at the time Zahn wrote the trilogy. The Wayland cloning facility itself is insignificant, even if only the best of the best are being cloned - Wayland on its own simply cannot produce a significant number of clones to matter to a military force on a remotely rational scale for a galaxy-level power in a setting in which a galaxy-level civilization has existed for a couple tens of thousands of years.

Realistically speaking, the threat that the Wayland facility poses should not be its clone output - which is useful, but not of any real significance - but rather the potential that it represents. Who's to say that the Empire cannot establish thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, even millions of such facilities now that they've worked out the kinks at the Wayland facility? 20,000 clones every ten days from one facility isn't a problem. 20,000 clones every ten days from each of several thousand facilities, though? That's more of an issue.

Of course, if I recall correctly that's not how it's treated in the books.

While i get your point about scale..

You dont just get 20,000 troops. You get 20,000 of your absolute top soldiers, engineers, pilots, tacticians, already trained and already experienced.

Like someone above said, give me 20,000 crack experience troopers against a million militia any day of the week.